Marriage struggles

Riona Abhainn wrote:

The one thing I've heard you say that does concern me  is that you are feeling a bit unsafe emotionally, because you worry she could become emotionally abusive again.  If that happens and she doesn't stop that behaviour then I'd say its time to think about leaving, because being emotionally abused isn't good and no one should have to go through that.  Divorce was invented for things like abuse.  Hopefully she really is getting her behaviour together and making new better choices.  My older brother had to divorce his wife because she wasn't willing to stop being verbally emotionally abusive to him, and he did it even though he was still in love with her, and they continued to communicate weekly until she passed away, but he knew he couldn't live with her.

So I do believe there are viable reasons for divorce, I don't believe that divorce so someone can grow or some ephemeral idea like that is a good reason to get divorced, that is my own opinion though and you have every right to disregard it.  I think its good that you aren't the type of person to divorce flippantly, I can see that about you, you really want to try for something you perceive will be best, and you're trying to figure out what the best choice is.

Emotional abuse was one of my boundaries that we talked about over the weekend. I told her I will not stay in a relationship that is abusive in any way and that if I’m feeling abused I will let it be known and remove myself from the situation immediately. She understood. I put up with a lot that I shouldn’t have in the past, but we never talked about boundaries and I didnt tell her most of the time when I felt hurt. So part of that was on me. Now, it’s clearly understood and out in the open so all I need now is to be accountable to myself and uphold my boundaries.

Judith Browning wrote:There is much good advice here.
I wonder though, if it's wise in a relationship to air one's spouses 'problems' so publicly?
I realize this is how it's done now in the age of social media but public criticism of someone who's not there to speak for themselves goes against the grain for this old person who will be married fifty years in 2024
My biggest suggestion might be to only write what you want her to read and to let her know about this thread if she doesn't already?

Good luck in whatever you two decide to do

I understand that and have considered it. I guess I never gave out her name but it wouldn’t take a detective to figure it out with the internet. I have told her in the past that I’ve posted on Permies looking for advice about our relationship and told her that she can read the entire conversation without being a member if she wants. I have also read her some people’s responses before. So this isn’t a secret. And I feel like Permies isn’t an accurate reflection of society. Most people here seem to be oriented towards growth and healing of themselves, those around them and their environment, so it feels more trustworthy and sincere than say facebook or social media where so many are just looking for validation, distraction, attention or just trying to rock the boat. I would never put all of this personal information out on Facebook or something.

Anne Miller wrote:When was the last time you said, "I love you"?

Some relationship folks say this too casually and in others, not enough.

When did you and your wife last have a Date Night"?

We say “I love you” too frequently in my opinion. Its gotten habitual. We say it whenever we end a phone call, whenever we go to sleep and whenever we part ways in person. So probably 1-4 times most days. I have considered telling her that the phrase has lost some of its meaning to me due to overuse, but I anticipate her feeling differently and just haven’t brought it up yet.

Date nights are confusing to me. I feel like we need to define what counts. In my mind, whenever we are spending quality time together it is basically a date. When we spend an evening talking, watching tv or cooking and eating together at home it feels like a date to me. When we go out to see a play or a show or a concert or go shopping and get dinner, it feels like a date to me. For her, I think it needs to be 100% about us. Like no agenda, no priorities, no shopping. So I feel like we go on more dates than she does. We should probably clarify our definitions to eachother and make it clear what counts and what doesnt.

Abraham Palma wrote:

Differences may cause conflict, of course, that's is part of making it work.
About changing the other person, you don't need to change her, or she changing you. It's more like a behavioral adaptation. You don't need to stop loving gardening for her, but you can stop bothering her about all that you wanted to share with her that she does not appreciate. It's the same in her side. She doesn't need to change her mind, but she can change her attitudes, if that is what takes for both of you being happy.

Lockdowns were hard for us because most of what we love to do together is outside. Also, being locked with the children while I was away working (my work allowed me to go out to the office), was too stressful on her.

Because in a relationship there is no right or wrong. There is what works and what doesn't work. What works for us, might not work for both of you. This is what takes time to assimilate. You are not writting a scientifical paper that must be right, you are trying to make a relationship work.


I'd like to add another suggestion. What if we could apply the 12 principles for designing an approach to our relationships? The relationship is the field, each one is different from others and requires close observation. The yield is feeling good with the other one. The energy in this context is emotional energy. Renewables are things that do not exhaust by their use, like saying 'I love you', it's a renewable resource. You seem to have done a lot of observation already. Small and slow solutions, valueing the edges and accepting feedback has great potential.
Maybe this project is less dirt-hands than what you are used to, but maybe facing your current challenge with a familiar mindset is what it takes to have success.

I think we both feel like we should be able to share our passions and what excites us with eachother and be accepted. But we have tended to dim eachothers lights the last few years. For example, I voice something exciting about the chickens and she responds with sarcasm or says something about how shes glad one of us enjoys them. Or she voices some excitement about a shopping trip and I either bite my tongue and say very little or say something about finances that ends up stressing her out. We both realize that and want to be more supportive of eachother. But thats where, at least in my mind, compatibility comes into play. What if we were both excited about chickens? What if we both liked shopping? Maybe we would have 1,000 chickens or maybe we would go broke, I dont know. But we wouldn’t “dim eachothers lights”.

Im surprised you spent more time inside during lockdowns. Do you live in a city? When lockdowns started here I remember saying “wait, you’re telling me I have to get paid to stay home, garden, work on house projects, sleep in and basically do whatever I want without going to work? Sounds like a dream come true!”

You bringing up the design principles is good timing considering I have been reading the Permaculture Design Manual lately. Just got through the principles last night actually!

John Craig wrote:I first want to say that living with another person is not always easy. Easy is something that we may want, so that we do not have to do the work that a strong relationship requires. The second thing is that none of us is perfect, and expecting the "other partner" to change to meet my needs, usually leads to disappointment.
I say this as a retired social work counselor who has worked with lots of people and been married to the same person for 50 years. To  me, the foundation to a successful marriage is love. Without it on both sides the odds are slim it will last. But love is not something many people understand. If it was understood my most people, we would have a very different world. When I say love, I am not just talking about the emotion, but about its features like:  non judgement, forgiveness, compassion, understanding, honesty, etc.
To truly love another you must first love yourself and see the beauty and strength within yourself. For if you can't see it in yourself, you likely can't see it in your partner.
Even with love for the other in both partners, that is not enough.  We still need knowledge of the partner's needs wants and beliefs, and an ability to problem solve and compromise and be responsible for our actions.
That is a tall order. So the best one can do is to try to be the best self they can be.
Sometimes, even after both partners give it their best try, perhaps through counseling, or self improvement, it doesn't work. Ending a relationship is perhaps the best outcome for both people.
That would constitute the best advice I could give to those who are contemplating a marriage or long term relationship.

Lots of wisdom here! We used to think love is all you need. We both know that isnt true now! And we weren’t “practicing” love, we were feeling it. We were judging eachother, she wasnt forgiving, I completely ran out of compassion (still dont have much left. Used to think I was an endless well of compassion but that well has gone dry. It needs to rain!), and I had lied to her. So the love was weak and it faded these last few years.

She also struggles to love herself. She has self esteem issues and insecurities and I dont know if theres any way I can really help with that, other than being compassionate and supportive.

But yes, I agree with everything you have said. We are giving it our best shot now and trying things we haven’t before. So it’s do or die at this point!

Brody Ekberg wrote:Date nights are confusing to me. I feel like we need to define what counts. In my mind, whenever we are spending quality time together it is basically a date. When we spend an evening talking, watching tv or cooking and eating together at home it feels like a date to me.  

Maybe those are the kind of dates you had before getting married.

Having a stay at home date does not light a spark for me.

I want to be wined, dined, and to dance the night away.

To me, a date night is where folks get all dressed up and go somewhere different than home.



source



Source

https://ruffledblog.com/date-night-ideas-no-reservations/




Source



source

https://meetville.com/blog/date-ideas/5-romantic-date-ideas-to-impress-her

Logan Albright wrote:Almost everybody has strong imbalances. This makes it so that almost everybody has unconscious and uncontrollable reactions. Depending on the imbalances of each person in a couple, the evolution of the relationship issues will vary in speed and intensity. People in the past divorced less frequently; I believe it wasn't only due to stronger religious beliefs but mostly due to better quality food and a better diet. If you want to stay together both of you will need to get onboard with becoming more balanced (research TCM dietary info, go to TCM doctors, meditate, do qi gong/yoga, be more in nature, etc.). If you don't stay together I would still recommend you try to become more balanced and look for someone whom is more balanced. Two very imbalanced people can stay together forever if the imbalances are such that issues don't build up; but I think that's not very common plus people's imbalances morph over time (and even over seasons). I do believe though that everything works out for the best, even if at the time it seems not to be true. Good luck.

I agree that we all have imbalances and I guess my main struggle is that they were largely unconscious on both our parts and we were jabbing eachother because of it. Those jabs have created wounds that now need to be healed. It seems that 2 mature, conscious adults could form a relationship while being aware of their imbalances and not jabbing anyone because of them, therefore not creating new wounds that need to be healed at a later time.

And I’m all for tightening up our diet. The best I have ever felt physically, emotionally and spiritually was during and after an long, intense diet that we did together. Unfortunately, she did not have the same experience. To sum it up, she had a lot of health issues that doctors were not helping us figure out so I took it into my own hands. I researched and designed a “detox” diet that consisted of nothing but liquids for 2-3 weeks (broth, vegetable juice and tea without caffeine or sweeteners). Then from there we reintroduced some fats and proteins, some non starchy vegetables and small amounts of whole fruits. I felt like I was floating through life, loving everything and everyone and smiling constantly. Nothing hurt and I looked better than ever before. She felt tired, cold, deprived of all enjoyment and resented the entire experience…

Ever since sliding back into a more comfortable diet, I have gotten more pains, more irritable, more tired, less happy, and gained body fat. We do still eat better than most “normal” people but we cut a lot of corners. I still tend towards whole foods, organic when reasonable, and very rarely eat processed stuff. She cuts more corners than I do and comfort is more important to her. I view comfort foods as pure deception: we call them comfort foods because we think they make us comfortable. But that comfort leaves as you finish eating and is replaced with fat, bloat, inflammation, gas and guilt… none of which are very comfortable!

Hi Brody,
You seem really open to listening to what people have to say, and I want to see if I can get you to look at something you said, differently. I have read most of this post thread, though I admit to skimming the last few posts.

Emotional abuse was one of my boundaries that we talked about over the weekend. I told her I will not stay in a relationship that is abusive in any way and that if I’m feeling abused I will let it be known and remove myself from the situation immediately.

This is almost word for word what my wife said, and in her case, it was a way to leave the marriage. When you say, "I will not tolerate any emotional abuse and I will leave if it happens"... you are really saying that "if something happens that I don't like, I'm going to leave". Or another way to put it, "if she does something wrong, I'm going to leave". In my mind, that is a divorce mindset and is focused on myself and not on others. In my situation, my wife would accuse me of emotional abuse, and then refuse to tell me what I did, she would just leave. In hindsight, this was really gaslighting on her part, because she didn't want to fix anything, she just wanted a reason to leave. I never spoke to her in a demeaning way on purpose, though I'm sure there were times things came out the wrong way. The problem was that she would never tell me what I did, and this caused more hurt and division (you are ahead of the game here by telling her when it happens). If she had just told me "that hurts when you say this or that", then I could have and would have explained what I really meant, and tried not to say it in that way again. And she should have tried to understand that I didn't mean it that way, and understand that I may say things differently. One way assumes the worst (the spouse meant to hurt me, and doesn't care). The other way assumes the best (this spouse loves me and wouldn't do something to hurt me on purpose, so it must have been a mistake and I will let them know so it won't happen again).

I don't blame you for your statement, I'm not saying it is wrong. But it assumes the worst towards her. And maybe she really does mean to say those things. If that is the case, and she is purposefully wrong instead of accidentally wrong, then why should you be the one to leave for her wrongdoing? Obviously provided there is no threat of physical violence, she should be the one to leave and be punished for doing wrong, not you. I would say the reverse is true too. I just don't want to see someone make the mistake I made. It is your house and your space too. The one doing the wrong should be the one to leave in my opinion, not the one who had wrong done to them.

Anne Miller wrote:

Maybe those are the kind of dates you had before getting married.

Having a stay at home date does not light a spark for me.

I want to be wined, dined, and to dance the night away.

To me, a date night is where folks get all dressed up and go somewhere different than home.

She may feel that way as well. We need to discuss that I guess. She doesn’t drink and we dont dance. And so many times we “go out” it’s less than romantic that my motivation is pretty depleted. But, maybe with these other positive changes we will be able to do more together without her getting super irritated and having the whole night turn into another emotional mess.

Matt McSpadden wrote:Hi Brody,
You seem really open to listening to what people have to say, and I want to see if I can get you to look at something you said, differently. I have read most of this post thread, though I admit to skimming the last few posts.

Emotional abuse was one of my boundaries that we talked about over the weekend. I told her I will not stay in a relationship that is abusive in any way and that if I’m feeling abused I will let it be known and remove myself from the situation immediately.

This is almost word for word what my wife said, and in her case, it was a way to leave the marriage. When you say, "I will not tolerate any emotional abuse and I will leave if it happens"... you are really saying that "if something happens that I don't like, I'm going to leave". Or another way to put it, "if she does something wrong, I'm going to leave". In my mind, that is a divorce mindset and is focused on myself and not on others. In my situation, my wife would accuse me of emotional abuse, and then refuse to tell me what I did, she would just leave. In hindsight, this was really gaslighting on her part, because she didn't want to fix anything, she just wanted a reason to leave. I never spoke to her in a demeaning way on purpose, though I'm sure there were times things came out the wrong way. The problem was that she would never tell me what I did, and this caused more hurt and division (you are ahead of the game here by telling her when it happens). If she had just told me "that hurts when you say this or that", then I could have and would have explained what I really meant, and tried not to say it in that way again. And she should have tried to understand that I didn't mean it that way, and understand that I may say things differently. One way assumes the worst (the spouse meant to hurt me, and doesn't care). The other way assumes the best (this spouse loves me and wouldn't do something to hurt me on purpose, so it must have been a mistake and I will let them know so it won't happen again).

I don't blame you for your statement, I'm not saying it is wrong. But it assumes the worst towards her. And maybe she really does mean to say those things. If that is the case, and she is purposefully wrong instead of accidentally wrong, then why should you be the one to leave for her wrongdoing? Obviously provided there is no threat of physical violence, she should be the one to leave and be punished for doing wrong, not you. I would say the reverse is true too. I just don't want to see someone make the mistake I made. It is your house and your space too. The one doing the wrong should be the one to leave in my opinion, not the one who had wrong done to them.

Good point, and thanks for bringing that up. Maybe I need to clarify with her. I dont mean that if she says something emotionally abusive that I will divorce her. I mean if she says something emotionally abusive I will let her know how I feel and leave the situation if necessary. If that repeats much, then I would leave the relationship. But, since emotional abuse is a bit less concrete than physical abuse, I did not set a zero tolerance for it. Plus, I have endured emotional abuse from her before so she has learned that she can “get away with it”. I took that into consideration figuring bad habits die hard but also being firm in the fact that I deserve better and wont justify her behavior or suppress my feelings about it, leading to resentment anymore. And emotional abuse isn’t just doing something someone doesn’t like. Its saying things that are judgmental, disrespectful, invalidating, giving ultimatums, demanding people change, screaming, throwing tantrums, constant criticisms, telling me my opinion is wrong or my feelings are wrong, humiliating me, withholding sex, blaming me for everything and trying to control me. And dont get me wrong, I have done some of these as well. It isnt all on her. But when I do something like that she makes it very obvious that its a problem. When she does, I generally tried to justify it, kept my feelings to myself and just “dealt with it” internally without telling her it isnt ok.

I really dont think that she tries to hurt me. She has a big heart and is a kind person. But we push eachothers buttons and she tends towards anger much more than me.

And I agree that the one doing wrong should be the one to leave. But you can’t control anyone else. I can control me, and so as I set my boundaries I did it in a way that gives me control over what situations I put up with and dont put up with. If she crosses my boundaries repeatedly, I cant make her leave. But I can leave.

Im surprised you spent more time inside during lockdowns. Do you live in a city?

Yep. Málaga. Half a million souls, pretty much everyone living in appartments.

Abraham Palma wrote:

Im surprised you spent more time inside during lockdowns. Do you live in a city?

Yep. Málaga. Half a million souls, pretty much everyone living in appartments.

Oh wow, I feel for you! I couldn’t imagine living in a city anytime, especially during a pandemic! I remember talking to so many people here during lockdown about how fortunate we are to be rural enough to have yards and our own spaces to live in even when society gets bunged up. For a lot of us, the lockdown actually improved our quality of life. But we were all very aware of the complete opposite effect it had on those living in city apartments. I hope you dont have to endure that isolation again!

Brody Ekberg wrote:The best I have ever felt physically, emotionally and spiritually was during and after an long, intense diet that we did together. Unfortunately, she did not have the same experience. To sum it up, she had a lot of health issues that doctors were not helping us figure out so I took it into my own hands. I researched and designed a “detox” diet that consisted of nothing but liquids for 2-3 weeks (broth, vegetable juice and tea without caffeine or sweeteners). Then from there we reintroduced some fats and proteins, some non starchy vegetables and small amounts of whole fruits. I felt like I was floating through life, loving everything and everyone and smiling constantly. Nothing hurt and I looked better than ever before. She felt tired, cold, deprived of all enjoyment and resented the entire experience…

That would be considered a reducing, cold diet; which is awful for anyone with deficiency or cold and especially bad for someone with both (from her symptoms it sounds like the exact wrong diet for her). That could be good for someone with excess and heat; at least for a while but too much reducing and cold foods ultimately is bad for everyone in the long run; same with any of the extremes. Research what Traditional Chinese Medicine and Ayurveda recommends and see experienced TCM or Ayurveda or Holistic doctors. The book The Herbs of Life by Lesley Tierra has good info about diet as do many other TCM books. I would get as many sources of info as you can because there can be contradictions. There is plenty of "free" sources found online but that's up to you whether you're ok with that; at least it can be a good first step to find what you like before purchasing.

Brody Ekberg wrote:She has circulation issues and when desperate, she tends to sleep on her side with her shoulder rolling in towards eachother, which cuts off her circulation and makes her arms go numb.

I've actually been encountering this numbness in my arms while sleeping recently. I was wondering what was going on, but it makes sense now. I have hypermobile shoulders, and had to go to physical therapy for it. I used to have a lot of pain (but no loss of circulation) because my shoulders didn't have enough muscle mass to prevent them from floppily rolling forward. Back then, I was also using my arms to carry my daughter, and so they were basically dislocated. After physical therapy, they stopped hurting, and I haven't done my exercises (because it's easy to forget, and I'm not carrying little kids around anymore).

But! Without the strength training, I think they're rolling to far forward, causing the numbness. I guess I'll need to go back to my exercises!

If you have money for a physical therapist, see if she can get them to look at her shoulders and suggest exercises to do.

I had a list of different exercises to do. Some are hard to explain, but the easiest were:

holding my arms straight out to my side and wiggling them up and down, kind of like I'm flying. I do this with my thumbs facing forward

holding my arms straight out to the side, and wiggling them back and forth. I do this with my thumb straight up

Lying on the floor and holding light weights (2-5 pounds) striaght up. This kind of pushes my shoulders back in place, and helps build stabilizer muscles. I started with lighter weights and worked up to 8 pound weights.

Push ups. At first, I wasn't able to do them even on my knees without it being too much for my shoulder, so I just did wall push-ups. These will build up muscle

The hardest part of doing exercises is remembering to do them. Making a set time to do them helps. Or doing them while watching a video every day. I think I remember your wife liking to watch a show? Maybe the first 10 minutes of the show, you guys can do exercises together while watching?

Thanks for your post. I'm going to go do my exercises again so I stop having numb arms at night! (I'm pretty sure it'll work, but if it doesn't, I'll report back!)

Brody Ekberg wrote: Ill risk offending some, but am going out on a limb to say that you think it makes most sense for the man to be the tie breaker and that religions and human history would agree. I also agree that it makes the most sense, specifically because MEN tend to make the most sense, where women tend to be more emotional. Not that emotions are bad or less important, but they often dont make sense and are unhelpful in many situations, especially if they are overriding logic and reason.  My wife has made comments about how men control the world and women have always been subject to men, and that is precisely my response to her. Not that its right or ok, but that up until recently, survival needs were the most important thing in anyones life and your emotions have nothing to do with meeting survival needs. So naturally, society would be structured around logic and reason instead of emotions. The problem with that is that it has, in my opinion, led to a society of overly emotional women (compensating for not being/feeling heard or valued) and a society of men who are detached from their own emotional experience (Ive been there… for years). I think what would be ideal is a healthy balance of both. Embracing women’s emotionality and embracing mens logic and reason and using both together, not setting them at odds against each other or one trumping the other, unless survival is at stake!

Matt and Brody, could your assumption that you men are more logical and your wives are more emotional, and therefore you should be the tie breakers be related to some of your marital troubles? It would be interesting to hear what your wives think about that idea and how it has affected your marriages. If you want to get into stereotypes and generalizations, women are usually considered more emotionally intelligent than men, particularly in Abrahamic cultures that (to generalize) tend to condition men to suppress their emotions and discourage development of skills to manage them constructively and communicate effectively about them (as you also touched on, Brody). In my marriage of 23 years, I feel that I am the more logical one and my husband is more emotional, but with counselling, I've been trying to respect and respond more empathetically to his emotions instead of dismissing them as unreasonable.

In this context, Transactional Analysis is a useful therapy tool to consider. It could be that the person who considers him or herself to be the more logical tie breaker is taking on the "parent" role and the other person might respond as a "child". The main idea of Transactional Analysis is that healthy communication (and decision making) only happens when both parties behave like "adults."

Serafina, since you're quoting one person quoting another person, you'd need two separate [/quote] codes, one after another.

So, it'd look something like [quote=Brody][quote=Matt] Words that Brody quoted Matt about [/quote]Now for the words that Brody wrote [/quote]

Note how there's two [/quote] s

Formatting tags (BB tags) take a bit of time to figure out, but it does get easier. Having said that, I still mess up! I'm going to try to turn on the edit button on you post so you can try to fix it. This tutorial might help, too Using formatting tags at permies.com to make your posts more awesome

Another think you can try is clicking the "preview" button to see if you got the code right before hitting submit

I hope that helps!

Just to clarify Serafina's post. She is quoting Brody's response to something I wrote, but is not actually quoting what I wrote.

@Serafina
The tie-breaker question was absolutely a huge source of the problem in my marriage. However it had nothing to do with my opinion on men's logic or women's emotions, it had to do with the fact that I am a Christian, and my wife claimed to be a Christian, and in the Biblical Christian marriage, God says the man is to be the head of the home... e.g. the tie-breaker. And... my wife decided she did not want to do things God's way anymore.

Serafina wrote:In my marriage of 23 years, I feel that I am the more logical one and my husband is more emotional,

I don't think it is fair to say that men are more logical and women are more emotional. Men can absolutely be emotional and women can absolutely be logical. My opinion, in general (please note -> in general, there are always exceptions), is that men often act a certain way in spite of their emotions, while women often act a certain way because of their emotions. Emotions are not always logical, nor are they always accurate, and so whichever person can overcome those emotions to do the right thing, regardless of how they feel, will appear more logical. I think both sexes should be striving to rise above what they feel, and to be able to understand if an emotion is legitimate or not. We can't always control feelings, but we can control our response to the feeling.

Serafina wrote:but with counselling, I've been trying to respect and respond more empathetically to his emotions instead of dismissing them as unreasonable.

Again, there are always exceptions, but most men care deeply about being respected and don't really care at all if you respond empathically to his emotions. The problem is that the things that make a man feel respected (letting him be the leader, cooking dinner, taking care of the house, having his children, and in general just being a help, instead of competition) are often the things that this culture tells woman are demeaning (when they are not).

Logan Albright wrote:

That would be considered a reducing, cold diet; which is awful for anyone with deficiency or cold and especially bad for someone with both (from her symptoms it sounds like the exact wrong diet for her). That could be good for someone with excess and heat; at least for a while but too much reducing and cold foods ultimately is bad for everyone in the long run; same with any of the extremes. Research what Traditional Chinese Medicine and Ayurveda recommends and see experienced TCM or Ayurveda or Holistic doctors. The book The Herbs of Life by Lesley Tierra has good info about diet as do many other TCM books. I would get as many sources of info as you can because there can be contradictions. There is plenty of "free" sources found online but that's up to you whether you're ok with that; at least it can be a good first step to find what you like before purchasing.

Ill have to look into that more because this sounds very interesting. When I eat poorly I often literally feel the heat. I feel the inflammation and excess heat throughout my body. I end up sleeping hot and getting irritable. I crave acids like vinegar and kombucha. And I tend to “run hot” even when I eat well. My issues tend to be more of too much than not enough.

She is quite opposite (surprise surprise). She is always cold and she did/does have some nutritional deficiencies. She hates eating pretty much any raw vegetables and would much prefer meat and carbs. I think she could do a carnivore diet just as easily as I could do a juice cleanse. I guess I’m not surprised that we are opposite in that regard too. I should tell her the diet I designed for us years ago was bad for her, she will love to hear that and tell me “i told you so”!

Nicole Alderman wrote:

I've actually been encountering this numbness in my arms while sleeping recently. I was wondering what was going on, but it makes sense now. I have hypermobile shoulders, and had to go to physical therapy for it. I used to have a lot of pain (but no loss of circulation) because my shoulders didn't have enough muscle mass to prevent them from floppily rolling forward. Back then, I was also using my arms to carry my daughter, and so they were basically dislocated. After physical therapy, they stopped hurting, and I haven't done my exercises (because it's easy to forget, and I'm not carrying little kids around anymore).

But! Without the strength training, I think they're rolling to far forward, causing the numbness. I guess I'll need to go back to my exercises!

If you have money for a physical therapist, see if she can get them to look at her shoulders and suggest exercises to do.

The hardest part of doing exercises is remembering to do them. Making a set time to do them helps. Or doing them while watching a video every day. I think I remember your wife liking to watch a show? Maybe the first 10 minutes of the show, you guys can do exercises together while watching?

Thanks for your post. I'm going to go do my exercises again so I stop having numb arms at night! (I'm pretty sure it'll work, but if it doesn't, I'll report back!)

Glad I could help remind you of your exercises!

I was surprised to recently learn that clunking, pain and excess movement in a joint is generally caused by weak muscles surrounding the joint. Made me realize that I too need to strengthen my shoulders!

Serafina Auster wrote:

Matt and Brody, could your assumption that you men are more logical and your wives are more emotional, and therefore you should be the tie breakers be related to some of your marital troubles? It would be interesting to hear what your wives think about that idea and how it has affected your marriages. If you want to get into stereotypes and generalizations, women are usually considered more emotionally intelligent than men, particularly in Abrahamic cultures that (to generalize) tend to condition men to suppress their emotions and discourage development of skills to manage them constructively and communicate effectively about them (as you also touched on, Brody). In my marriage of 23 years, I feel that I am the more logical one and my husband is more emotional, but with counselling, I've been trying to respect and respond more empathetically to his emotions instead of dismissing them as unreasonable.

In this context, Transactional Analysis is a useful therapy tool to consider. It could be that the person who considers him or herself to be the more logical tie breaker is taking on the "parent" role and the other person might respond as a "child". The main idea of Transactional Analysis is that healthy communication (and decision making) only happens when both parties behave like "adults."

You are correct, at least in my situation, that my belief about logic and emotion has negatively effected my relationship. Until a couple years ago, I basically considered emotions to be not much more than life keeping itself interesting. They were totally unnecessary to me and I treated them pretty much the same way I treat clouds in the sky: observe them and try to enjoy them as they pass on by. But I never based decisions or actions on emotions as they seemed irrelevant to me. She took that personally despite me trying to explain that I treat my own emotions the same way as I treat hers and everyone elses.

And to be honest, I still think they are irrelevant often times. I mean, if the dishes need to be done or firewood needs to be hauled or dinner needs to be cooked or the driveway needs to be plowed, I dont care what the feelings are, get to work! But I do think it makes sense that women would tend to be more emotional and men more work oriented. Think of how long men had to go out and “bring home the bacon” under all weather conditions and the complete lack of comfort and convenience involved in the process, while at the same time, women tended to be spending time nurturing children and the elderly back home, which largely DOES involve a lot of emotions and being in touch with others feelings. We’ve just adapted to different roles.

It almost seems to be to be an issue similar to compatibility. Everyone can “make” a relationship work, but some people can let the relationship work naturally. Every man can “make” himself more emotional and every woman and “make” herself more rational, but why not embrace the differences and use them to the advantage of the family and society instead of expecting men to be more like women and women to be more like men? I think all that is really necessary is compassion and understanding, and accepting that people have different roles and therefore have different ways of navigating through life.

I think I could have remained more detached from my emotions without it causing significant issues in my marriage IF I was aware of that and accepted that she kind of needs to be more emotional. And she would need to accept me the way I am. But I wanted less emotional volatility and more rationality from her while she wanted more emotions and less logic from me. We both thought eachother was “wrong” and wanted the other to be different than how we actually are…

Ill look more into transactional analysis because I do think that I tend towards the rational parent role which may push her more towards irrational child like behavior. I have many times wondered why I married a child (referring to how she behaves when triggered) and maybe it was because I was pushing her into that role somewhat. But it could work the other way too right? Her childish behavior could push me towards parental behavior.

Matt McSpadden wrote:

I don't think it is fair to say that men are more logical and women are more emotional. Men can absolutely be emotional and women can absolutely be logical. My opinion, in general (please note -> in general, there are always exceptions), is that men often act a certain way in spite of their emotions, while women often act a certain way because of their emotions. Emotions are not always logical, nor are they always accurate, and so whichever person can overcome those emotions to do the right thing, regardless of how they feel, will appear more logical. I think both sexes should be striving to rise above what they feel, and to be able to understand if an emotion is legitimate or not. We can't always control feelings, but we can control our response to the feeling.

Again, there are always exceptions, but most men care deeply about being respected and don't really care at all if you respond empathically to his emotions. The problem is that the things that make a man feel respected (letting him be the leader, cooking dinner, taking care of the house, having his children, and in general just being a help, instead of competition) are often the things that this culture tells woman are demeaning (when they are not).

I think that may be the most accurate description of this that I have heard: “men tend to act a certain way in spite of their emotions while women tend to act a certain way because of their emotions”. That is 100% my experience. I have always been aware of my emotions and had emotional experiences. They were just irrelevant to most of what I was doing. Things need to be done whether you feel this way or that way. My wife tends to not do things she doesnt want to and do things she does want to.

Now obviously, there needs to be a balance and that is where I think people usually go wrong. They think either emotions are more important or logic is more important and then disregard the other. Both are important, but they are important for different reasons.

Hi Brody,
I was thinking of you and your wife recently, and I see this thread has been quiet. How are you both doing?

Matt had some very good perspective above. I'll add Sonnet 116 of Shakespeare, which I re-read today, and which is a powerful reminder that love is an action verb:

Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds
Or bends with the remover to remove.
O, no, it is an ever-fixèd mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wand’ring bark,
Whose worth’s unknown, although his height be taken.
Love’s not Time’s fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle’s compass come;
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error, and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.

Best to you,
Mark

Mark Miner wrote:Hi Brody,
I was thinking of you and your wife recently, and I see this thread has been quiet. How are you both doing?

Matt had some very good perspective above. I'll add Sonnet 116 of Shakespeare, which I re-read today, and which is a powerful reminder that love is an action verb:

Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds
Or bends with the remover to remove.
O, no, it is an ever-fixèd mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wand’ring bark,
Whose worth’s unknown, although his height be taken.
Love’s not Time’s fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle’s compass come;
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error, and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.

Best to you,
Mark

Thanks for checking in! Im not sure where I left off at last time.

To sum it up: I was 99% sure I should leave her and even started writing what I was going to say to her. There was just a little bit of doubt and I wanted a few more people’s opinions. She could sense something was bothering and insisted we talk about it and so we did. She convinced me that she really wants this to work and was willing to change, so we had a long talk about needs, boundaries, behaviors and expectations and I decided to stick it out for at least a few more months.

Things improved quite a bit after that and were actually going pretty well. But now for the last month or so, she has been sleeping extra terribly (6 hrs a night occasionally but almost always significantly less, sometimes not sleeping at all). This is really taking a toll on us both. She cant go on like this. Sleep deprivation turns her into a totally different person (i dont judge since this is to be expected and sleep deprivation has the same effect on me). She becomes irritable, aggressive, super emotional, anxious and depressed. I have a VERY hard time dealing with her in that state and am considering getting a therapist to help me.

What bothers me the most is she isnt making changes. The way I see it is, you NEED sleep, so if you arent getting sleep and know you cant go on like this, you should be willing to do just about anything to “fix” it. She wont take any suggestions or advice from me. I suggest things like not eating within a couple hours of bedtime, not using screens a few hours before bedtime, setting regular times for going to sleep and getting up, meditation before bed and she just says things like “I’m too exhausted and overwhelmed to make changes” or “why should I have to do all that to sleep when you can sleep fine without doing those things”. It leaves me feeling like I really only have the following choices: leave, pray, just focus on bettering myself or give her an ultimatum.

Hi Brody,
I was excited when you started saying things were getting better for a while, and then saddened to hear they have not stayed that way.

Your description sounds like she is having anxiety attacks combined with depression. I felt much the same way when I was dealing with those. You feel stuck. You don't want to stay that way, but its a mountain to climb to do anything. For me, I couldn't even cross the living room to turn off lights on my way to bed because it was too much out of the path to bed. It is a really horrible feeling to be in, and it took a lot more than just not looking at screens before bed and the basics like that to get better sleep. I went to a naturopathic doctor to get help. He found quite a few health problems, but started me out with some Vitamin B Complex for energy with some magnesium for sleep and L-Theanine for anxiety. When I asked about some of the other problems he said not to worry about them right now. "We have to get some gas in the tank first, then we can tackle some other things". I'm not saying she should start taking those, but if she doesn't want to stay that way, she probably needs more physiological help than mental help from your description. For me, as the physiological issues were addressed my mental state of health started fixing itself.  

I'm glad to see the update and sorry it's not all positive.

But you say you're thinking of getting a therapist to help you, which jumped out at me. I seriously hope you do, because i know for me it was a turning point. Ultimately, you can't change her. You've tried. You can work on yourself though, and whether that is just someone to help you deal with the problems when she's sleep deprived or just to hear you out, i think will help you a lot.

Matt McSpadden wrote:Hi Brody,
I was excited when you started saying things were getting better for a while, and then saddened to hear they have not stayed that way.

Your description sounds like she is having anxiety attacks combined with depression. I felt much the same way when I was dealing with those. You feel stuck. You don't want to stay that way, but its a mountain to climb to do anything. For me, I couldn't even cross the living room to turn off lights on my way to bed because it was too much out of the path to bed. It is a really horrible feeling to be in, and it took a lot more than just not looking at screens before bed and the basics like that to get better sleep. I went to a naturopathic doctor to get help. He found quite a few health problems, but started me out with some Vitamin B Complex for energy with some magnesium for sleep and L-Theanine for anxiety. When I asked about some of the other problems he said not to worry about them right now. "We have to get some gas in the tank first, then we can tackle some other things". I'm not saying she should start taking those, but if she doesn't want to stay that way, she probably needs more physiological help than mental help from your description. For me, as the physiological issues were addressed my mental state of health started fixing itself.  

She has seen a naturopathic doctor for a while and has had multiple regimens of supplements and whatnot to take. She tends to be decent about it foe a few weeks and then gets “too busy”, overwhelmed, hopeless or just plain old forgets. All the sudden a few months have gone by without her taking supplements and she doesnt even remember what they’re for and how she’s supposed to be taking them… I ask if she wants my help organizing or remembering to take them and she always say no.

Its a mystery why she doesnt sleep too. She thought it was because of our shitty relationship. Well that has improved significantly and she still sleeps bad. If we go to bed angry she definitely sleeps bad but even if we have a nice evening together theres still a decent chance she wont sleep. She thought it was anxiety about having to work in the morning but then she sleeps bad even when she doesnt work in the morning. She thought it was inflammation from food but even after a couple weeks on the carnivore diet, she still slept bad. She thought it was from stopping/slowing down “medical herb” usage but then even when she smokes regularly she still sleeps bad. Sometimes she doesnt fall asleep at all but more often its that she wakes up early morning to pee and then cant fall back asleep due to feeling tense, restless and uncomfortable.

I try to get her to see a therapist but she says she’s too overwhelmed and exhausted to do that. I try to get her to do cold showers in the morning, exercise in the daytime and meditation/yoga before bed but once again, too exhausted and overwhelmed. Ive even gone as far as suggesting VERY limited amounts of sleeping pills, like 1-2 nights a week, with the idea that maybe that would allow her to rest enough to have the motivation to make changes. She refuses due to large numbers of her family members relying on sleeping pills for decades, and even abusing them. And she feels she wouldnt have self control and would become dependent on them. I tell her I can ration them for her, hiding them and only giving her one when she’s desperate but she literally said “it doesnt work like that”, whatever that means…

Tereza Okava wrote:I'm glad to see the update and sorry it's not all positive.

But you say you're thinking of getting a therapist to help you, which jumped out at me. I seriously hope you do, because i know for me it was a turning point. Ultimately, you can't change her. You've tried. You can work on yourself though, and whether that is just someone to help you deal with the problems when she's sleep deprived or just to hear you out, i think will help you a lot.

I agree. If Im in a better state mentally and emotionally, I will have a better chance of handling her with grace instead of getting frustrated or impatient. And honestly, her sleep deprived thought processing is so bewildering to me that getting an outside perspective will probably help me understand her more. Or make it clear that there isnt much to understand other than people dont function well without sleep!

My wife has always had insomniac jags where she sleeps poorly for whatever reason and then feels like shit all day, so then at bedtime, she experiences anxiety about sleep....rinse and repeat. She always falls out of the cycle, after three days or three weeks or three months in the most extreme case, but it eventually works itself out until next time. She started taking nightly Benadryl to help fall asleep but became dependent on it (for twenty years) and when she got off it, she realized it was causing inferior sleep quality. So, with my limited experience, I'd be cautious about sleeping pills and definitely use them under medical supervision if at all.

Just to be clear, in my case, this has been a 5 year journey. I'm way better than I was, but not where I want to be. Most of the things you are suggesting will take time. Unfortunately she needs to find the right motivation or the right help or the right stuff to take to stick with it. That is different for everyone.

Christopher Weeks wrote:My wife has always had insomniac jags where she sleeps poorly for whatever reason and then feels like shit all day, so then at bedtime, she experiences anxiety about sleep....rinse and repeat. She always falls out of the cycle, after three days or three weeks or three months in the most extreme case, but it eventually works itself out until next time. She started taking nightly Benadryl to help fall asleep but became dependent on it (for twenty years) and when she got off it, she realized it was causing inferior sleep quality. So, with my limited experience, I'd be cautious about sleeping pills and definitely use them under medical supervision if at all.

The way I see it is, you need sleep. She literally cannot live like this, so even if she was addicted to sleeping pills at least life could go on. But I dont see any reason she would NEED to get addicted to them. I mean, i could ration them for her if she’s really got no self control. And if she doesnt want to go that route then why not try anything and everything else?

it's really hard for some people to address things that are wrong, even (especially) if they've tried things that didn't work. I think we all know people who refuse to investigate health problems; in some cases this makes perfect sense, because they know they won't want to do the treatment, but in some cases there are easy and not so onerous solutions, and people lose the chance to right their course before it's too late (i'm thinking about people in my family who develop diabetes symptoms from lifestyle, things that could probably even be fixed just by adjusting how they live, but they don't want to see a doctor, or that friend with a nagging cough who kept on smoking). It's easy to explain and to sympathize, but it's also hard for you, who has to deal with the effects (and also cares about the person).

I also have serious sleep problems; for me, i have to exercise, and it is essentially a medical necessity. no anaerobic exercise means no sleep, which means my work ability is shot and my mood is nasty and i fall into depression. It's not rocket science but it took me YEARS to act on this information and to incorporate it into my life as an absolute imperative. Changing how you live is hard and uncomfortable. And still, every time i'm starting a run even today, there is a voice that says "hey this sucks, why bother". I use every sort of psychological/behavioral trick i know, and i still hear the voice of temptation every time, lol. I can't imagine doing this for anyone else besides myself, i think it has to be something you come to on your own, for everyone's mental health.
hang in there, Brody.

Tereza Okava wrote:it's really hard for some people to address things that are wrong, even (especially) if they've tried things that didn't work. I think we all know people who refuse to investigate health problems; in some cases this makes perfect sense, because they know they won't want to do the treatment, but in some cases there are easy and not so onerous solutions, and people lose the chance to right their course before it's too late (i'm thinking about people in my family who develop diabetes symptoms from lifestyle, things that could probably even be fixed just by adjusting how they live, but they don't want to see a doctor, or that friend with a nagging cough who kept on smoking). It's easy to explain and to sympathize, but it's also hard for you, who has to deal with the effects (and also cares about the person).

I also have serious sleep problems; for me, i have to exercise, and it is essentially a medical necessity. no anaerobic exercise means no sleep, which means my work ability is shot and my mood is nasty and i fall into depression. It's not rocket science but it took me YEARS to act on this information and to incorporate it into my life as an absolute imperative. Changing how you live is hard and uncomfortable. And still, every time i'm starting a run even today, there is a voice that says "hey this sucks, why bother". I use every sort of psychological/behavioral trick i know, and i still hear the voice of temptation every time, lol. I can't imagine doing this for anyone else besides myself, i think it has to be something you come to on your own, for everyone's mental health.
hang in there, Brody.

I feel the same way, although probably to a much lesser extent than you.

I almost always sleep well. The days that I struggle (dont feel tired, legs get restless, I feel too uncomfortable or have racing thoughts) are rare, but almost always days that I dont physically do anything. Like if we’re just eating, drinking and visiting around the holidays. Or if I have meetings all day or long drives.

I think I have suggested regular exercise to her before but am not certain. Pretty sure if I bring it up now she will use the same excuse as she does for the other suggestions: too overwhelmed and exhausted. “How am I supposed to have the energy to exercise if I dont sleep?”. Seems like a logical question but my answer is, “you just do it”. I mean, if shes got energy energy to stay up late watching tv or scrolling social media, I think she should be able to get a little exercise in instead. But Ive been told I “just dont understand”…

You might be thinking about energy wrong. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory. Sometimes I don't have the spoons to do something I ought to, but I can manage vegging out in front of my computer.

Also, maybe just ask her to go for a walk with you after dinner instead of telling her she should get exercise.

Hi Brody,
In her defense... it does make a difference. It is hard to understand, but there are times when you just can't. It shouldn't be like that, and its hard for people to understand who have never gone through that. But there is a tiredness of the willpower which is very different than physical tiredness. I think this is why my Dr was saying we have to get gas in the tank first. We have to find ways to get the energy going so that you can do some of the other things that will help.

I worry about being the one to dose her sleeping pills, because that could put even more tension between you and your wife. It might result in her resenting you every time you don't let her have a pill, even if it's not your fault. It's too easy for her brain to get confused and blame you for things, rather than circumstances. My husband gets cranky that we can't buy something because we don't have the money. Logically, he knows it's not my fault....but it still makes things hard.

Are you home when it's bed time? When I'm really tired, I lose track of time zoning out. Sometimes, I'm too tired to get up from the computer and drag myself off to brush my teeth and got to bed.

Maybe you could help her get to bed. Set a timer and when it goes off, it's time to turn off the screens. Give her a few minutes to finish what she's doing, and then gently help her get up from her chair and remind her it's bed time. You could also install something like F.Lux on her screens to make everything yellow and sleepy before bed--that helps me. My husband often has to remind me, "It's bedtime, get up from the computer and go to bed."

I"ve gotten like that when I'm mildly depressed (I've never had severe depression, thankfully). The screens, poor sleep, limited physical activity, sugar and crappy food cravings, and it coincides with when I've struggled with hard transformations/relationships in my life. It's not fleeting- takes time to process all of that. What Matt is saying makes A TON of sense to me. Baby steps. Some of the right supplements can go far to just feeling like a functioning human (B, D, L-theanine, melatonin, magnesium) that can think straight.

Additionally, it appears that there may be more projecting or wanting her to be a certain way than understanding what her way is or why she is a certain way. If you have not, ask her how she's feeling- maybe every day, ask if she has ideas on why she is struggling with insomnia, write down what she says she would like to do to remedy it, and find out how you can help support the next achievable step.  

Good luck!