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Marriage struggles

 
pollinator
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Christopher Weeks wrote:
I'm happily married and we're rounding the corner on 27 years. But we do have resentments, we (mostly correctly) identify the ways that we're crazy, we have (maybe not long) lists of things we'd enjoy changing about each other if it were possible, and we have definitely experienced harmonious growth together.



How do you deal with resentments and having a few things you would like to change in eachother?
 
Brody Ekberg
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M Waisman wrote:
Yeah. I'm not entirely unlike your wife in some ways. Only recently did I understand better that I am categorically a "highly sensitive person" and how my parents (just one, really) had such a huge impact on me. Knowing that I'm not crazy AND that I don't want to repeat those ways I was taught AND that my critical ways was sabotaging myself helped me immensely. It sounds like your wife is similar in some regards. Habits are hard to change but I'm determined not to become my mother and to not let my old family relationships dictate my happiness. It's possible! And requires patience galore. One habit I developed while depressed was holing up in my bedroom alone and streaming whatever tv. As absurd as it sounds, I learned a lot watching stupid reality dating tv.  I'd see how people did or did not communicate well and see ourselves reflected too. A fun dive into psychoanalysis that provided some escapism and a few lessons.

It's hard, as someone with emotional intelligence or calm demeanor to not automatically put yourself on a "better than" pedostal but that's precisely the judgement to avoid, IMO. Also, when something feels abusive, it's good to call it. I can barely talk to my siblings or mother because I feel like a pile of shit after most encounters. That's not worth it. It all depends on self-evolution and personality types- where your thresholds are. And just grow the flowers for her. She'll help if she wants to but it can be something you do for her.

It's never too late to set some goals.



I think my wife has always known shes a highly sensitive person. And her family, specifically her mothers side, have always kind of told her that she will end up with the same issues they did because thats just the way they are. I fought against that hard from the get go, trying to convince my wife that her future is not dependent on how she was raised or how the other women in her family chose to live. She really does not want to fall into the same unhealthy patterns as them and sees her tendencies towards that. She’s definitely working on it, although the last couple years not as much.

She also watched a lot of tv in the bedroom alone, which seriously drove me insane. Glad to realize there could actually be a benefit from that though!

I never thought of myself as being better than her, although she does feel that is my perspective. I thought i was more emotionally mature than her, and I may be. But that doesn’t mean I’m a better person by any means. Honestly, she is a better person than me in many ways.

As for abuse, I always assumed that meant physical or psychological. I never knew emotional abuse was a thing until about a year ago. When she saw my search history on my phone she was devastated and refused to accept that she had been emotionally abusive. The same goes for vulnerable narcissism. She saw my search history about that and was in total denial. Im no psychologist and never told her she is a narcissist. But when she confronted me I did tell her to look into it because she consistently exhibits many of the qualities. But much of that was tied to her holding resentments towards me and compensating for feeling neglected years ago.
 
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Brody Ekberg wrote:How do you deal with resentments and having a few things you would like to change in eachother?



I think the short answer is that I suck it up.

For instance, I resent that I do 80% of the housework. I don't meant to suggest that it consumes me -- but sometimes the unfairness of how my wife prioritizes her time, causing me to do an unfair amount of the housework bugs me. But like, what can I do about it? If I ask her do some chore, she's likely to do it. And it's likely to be harmonious enough. But neither is certain. And I've known for 30 years that's how it is. So, sometimes I resent it. But I love her and enjoy other things about her an awful lot, so put on the balance, it's something I live with. And I know there are things I do that she resents as well. And we've also been together long enough that we've seen those fluctuate.

She's writing a book. It takes a lot of time that she "should" be spending on me. Sometimes I resent that or the amount that she wants to discuss her research because it occupies such a large chunk of her brain. But I'm also jazzed by her project and want her to succeed. And when I do find myself resenting it, I can remind myself that it's not forever.

Also, I don't think of divorce as a failure state. If maintaining our marriage wasn't a net positive for both of us, we'd call it and move on. But I get way more out of it than I put in and she seems to feel the same.
 
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Asking a question about something I think I notice here, but could be wrong about.

As someone with an avoidant attachment style, did the relationship somehow feel safer to you when you felt she wasn't fully committed to it, and less safe since she said she doesn't see divorce as an option now?

To me, it appears that you two have flip-flopped roles, from your previous post where you said you were fully committed and her seeming ready to leave; to her now saying she's fully committed and you questioning whether to stay in the relationship.

People with avoidant styles may feel more comfortable in relationships that seem more superficial or temporary, and marrying someone who's already broken up with you a few times seems to fit that category. But when their partner gets more serious and makes it clear they're not going to leave, it can cause serious discomfort to the more avoidant partner.

I'm not making a judgement about that, simply suggesting it's something to think about.

It seems to me that you both have an excellent opportunity to heal less healthy attachment styles and learn how to grow together into real intimacy.

I don't claim to have achieved that yet in my marriage, it's a lifelong journey. There's a theory that we choose the partners we choose in order to heal childhood trauma, and we definitely did. What I've discovered hubby and I need to look out for is any places where one of us is making the other behave toward us in damaging ways our parents did, or we're behaving toward them in damaging ways their parents did.
 
steward
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Brody Ekberg wrote:
I actually got into writing a bit after my revelation and one of the first things I wrote about was how she was my anchor. I was like a balloon filled with helium ready to float off into new, exciting, uncharted territory. Willing to risk suffering or death for a cause. And she was the string with one end tied to me and the other tied to the ground. It was romantic in a way. But also, made me wonder if I really wanted or needed to be tied to the ground. Is it better that way? Safer, sure. More familiar, sure. But better? I dont know.

I still feel this way. She anchors me to a lot of things that I would have let go of if i was on my own. That has been good and bad. But that string causes tension and is limiting. And sometimes she just wants me to hang around the ground, even though I’m full of helium… it just isnt my nature to want to ride the brakes on something I’m passionate about.

Part of it is age too. I mean, I’m young, healthy, motivated and passionate. I have a warriors mentality. I feel like the best way I can be of service to the earth at this point in my life is to bust ass, be productive as possible and make huge changes. One day I will be old, disabled, tired or dead. Then I will have to slow down. Then maybe my best way of being in service to the earth will change. But there are enough parasites, lazy people, unmotivated people, disabled people, old people and dead people already not being helpful. Shouldn’t us able bodied, motivated, passionate people do what we can while we can?

Then again, without her I would probably burn out, get injured and maybe even die an earlier death. Not that any of that is bad or wrong, but its also not helpful either…



My husband is more like you in this aspect, especially in years past. We've been married for 16 years, and I've known him since I was 19 (exactly half my life now!). He's often talked about wanting to travel and go on adventures and would bemoan that we're tied down. But, also, he really likes the stability. And, since he's basically almost died twice (thanks Crohn's flare-ups), he's much happier that we have our home and stability. Sure, I've tied him down, but he's also lifted me up. And I've always been a constant in his life. His parents uprooted him, on average, every year of his life. He hated always moving and all the change. We balance each other.

It's easy to get caught up in a passion and let that drive us to greatness...or burn out. And burn out is real. We both pushed ourselves so hard in the past (especially the sleep deprivation and emotional distress from a colicky baby) that it resulted in some nasty auto-immune conditions for us (see the above note about him almost dying twice thanks to Crohn's).

Another thing to note, is that you really can burn yourself out. If you're body is constantly pumping adrenaline to get stuff done, your body might decide to give you some lovely Chronic Fatigue. This is rather common with people who have hypermobility. Since lots of our soft tissue is elastic, that often includes our veins. This results in low blood pressure. The body compensates by pumping you full of adrenaline. All though my childhood and early teens, it would take me HOURS to fall asleep, and I could stay awake all night without any tiredness in the morning. My body was pumping that much adrenaline, constantly! I finally got to a normal energy level as an adult, but the stress and sleep deprivation of parenting gave me full on fatigue that took YEARS (like 6+ years) to get back to some semblance of normal.

Slow and steady really can work well, and I like your idea of being grounded so you can teach others. One person can only do so much for permaculture. Why do you think Paul Wheaton made this forum? He knew he could only do so much. He still does a lot (and pushes himself way too far, far too often, causing all sorts of nasty health problems), but he knows he can do far more if he teaches others and creates a place where we can infect the world with permaculture.

Sometimes I feel down that I'm not doing more. But, moderating on this forum helps. Teaching the kids at my kid's homeschool co-op about natural building and historical skills helps. Teaching my kids helps. Talking about permaculture when it comes up naturally helps.

I'm a Christian and grew up Christian. I've found that trying to shove religion (be it permaculture or Christianity) down someone's throat tends to make them throw it up and never want another taste. But, if you live your life and share knowledge when applicable, you can sew the seeds of permaculture into people's minds. You can help them move up the Wheaton Eco Scale, bit by bit.

I guess what I'm saying is, sometimes being "tied down" can make a bigger impact than the epic permaculture adventures. Just like going an being a missionary in a country probably doesn't do nearly as much as just making connections in your own community.
 
Nicole Alderman
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Brody wrote: You mentioned being non-judgmental and it’s obvious to me how that would be a good thing in a relationship. We judge eachother. I may judge her more than she judges me, and even if I don’t vocalize it she can feel it. But the thing is, if she’s doing something self destructive, counterproductive or honestly, kind of being crazy, how cant I judge her? At least internally. And when I feel so strongly about something and she has the complete opposite perspective and can’t justify it with any sound reasoning (flat earth), how cant I judge her? If it were just a random person on the street i could just laugh it off and walk away. But I live with this woman, i am committed to her and she may be the future mother of my children. If she’s being unreasonable, self destructive or kind of crazy, am I just supposed to let it go and think “to each their own”? I dont want our future children to adopt silly ideas, self destructive behaviors or illogical reasoning.



Maybe this is a good opportunity to apply the "be nice" permies rules in your relationship? I know I've learned a LOT about sharing my ideas kindly and non-judgmentally here on permies. At the root of it is sharing your opinion and experience and info without denigrating theirs.

I believe that people are smart and can be reasoned with. I'm a teacher by heart and trade, and maybe that's from my fundamental belief that people can learn. Maybe you can share information about what you think and believe in a "Hey, look at this! I found this really cool video/article/book and it said some really fascinating things." Share your passion and enthusiasm for the knowledge you have, rather than sharing the hatred and judgement for their knowledge.

I've had the honor of teaching history at my kids'  homeschool co-op. Apparently, a lot of people hate history and think it's dry and boring and just battles and rulers and dates to memorize. None of the kids in my class think that. Every day, I get at least one kid saying, "Why is history SO COOL!?" We carve runes into soapstone, weave, bind books, write with goose quills, etc. We make and use the stuff people in the past used, and we create cool stuff in the process. (I'm inspired by the PEP program here on permies and the focus on learning by doing cool, useful, meaningful things). But, all this is to say, when you share your enthusiasm for a topic and make it interesting, people are more likely to want it. You mentioned the Bible, and one of the quotes that always confused me was that  we're "to be the salt of the earth." Salt kills things! But, salt also preserves, it makes things tasty. It makes people come back for more. I try to be "salty" in my presentation--make the information tasty and make them want more. Being filled with resentment makes that REALLY hard, I know, but I think it can be done.

My husband and I had a span of years where I resented his spending and he resented some stuff I did. It made it hard to talk. But, we've moved past it. It took time and trying on both of our parts, but now I think we're closer than we have been since our kids were born. It can happen. There's hope, especially if you're both willing to work on it (and it sounds like your wife finally is)
 
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I have not read everyone's replies because I can very much sympathize with your situation and don't feel like I can handle reading everyone's stories right now. But I wanted to say that I found a lot of help in the Gottman Institute materials. I live in a place where unofficial file sharing is the norm, and I got his book The Seven Principals for Making Marriage Work, and also watched quite a few YouTube videos on the subject. I couldn't get my husband to read anything and we didn't have financial access to counselling but he agreed to watch videos on the subject with me.  We are still married (20 years) but the most difficult time was about 10 years ago.
 
pollinator
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Brody Ekberg wrote:.....I agree that 50/50 doesn’t seem to work without constant compromise. And constant compromise can work if both feel satisfied with the situation, but how often is that the case? I think often times compromise leads to at least a bit of disappointment on both sides. Fair, but not ideal. Ill risk offending some, but am going out on a limb to say that you think it makes most sense for the man to be the tie breaker and that religions and human history would agree. I also agree that it makes the most sense, specifically because MEN tend to make the most sense, where women tend to be more emotional.



This ability of Permaculture and like approaches to living to allow for better inroads like this to be realized may be one of its hidden pluses.  "50/50" all of the time is just not tenable in the real world and universe.....rather, some fleeting part of the time it will be 50/50 and the rest of the time it may swing 10/90 or 90/10 or some points in between.  But reading further, just remember that men tend to make more sense......to other MEN.  And this of course is approaching it with broad, biased strokes.....biased by a culture that, for the time being, has benefited from that viewpoint.  But kudos for the recognition of the positivity that your wife does bring to the relationship and hopes that this will continue to flourish.

M Waisman wrote:.......If you look at matchmaking cultures, they often have successful and happy marriages, I think, because the individuals are generally kind, tolerant/non-judgemental and open-minded with people's flaws/baggage/misdeeds. I think happy marriages can be either a really good complement and match (like mine), or they can be quite different individuals BOTH full of respect and compassion for the other.



In a variation on a contemporary popular saying, I often find myself when presented with conundrums asking myself "What would a tribe do?......".  I suspect many tribal and other societies that use matchmaking can list oodles of reasons for why it works.  One reason I recall being told was that it puts the marriage below that of societal/cultural harmony.  A solid marriage was good for the community....not necessarily existing to fulfill the dreams of the individuals.  Although this can seem like something that would lead to a dystopian story line for the latest TV miniseries, that critical viewpoint assumes that our desires and dreams emanating from within are all justified and worthy of acting upon.  Sometimes, they might not be.... and from what I've read, many tribal constructs built in mechanisms to 'balance' individual drives and needs with the harmony needed within the tribe.  At any rate, I somewhat conclude that many modern marriages have the Promethean task of trying to provide...by two people....what a tribe once provided:  In feelings of security, childrearing, food resources, social/emotional supports, whatever.  We don't have much of that structure anymore, so we do what we can....but with difficulty.

Brody Ekberg wrote:......(A)  her family, specifically her mothers side, have always kind of told her that she will end up with the same issues they did because thats just the way they are. I fought against that hard from the get go, trying to convince my wife that her future is not dependent on how she was raised or how the other women in her family chose to live. She really does not want to fall into the same unhealthy patterns as them and sees her tendencies towards that. She’s definitely working on it, although the last couple years not as much.
(B)... She also watched a lot of tv in the bedroom alone, which seriously drove me insane. ......
(C)  ....As for abuse, I always assumed that meant physical or psychological. I never knew emotional abuse was a thing until about a year ago. When she saw my search history on my phone she was devastated and refused to accept that she had been emotionally abusive. The same goes for vulnerable narcissism. She saw my search history about that and was in total denial. Im no psychologist and never told her she is a narcissist. But when she confronted me I did tell her to look into it because she consistently exhibits many of the qualities. But much of that was tied to her holding resentments towards me and compensating for feeling neglected years ago.



In (A), "...because that's just the way they are"...is the older way of thinking that your wife's family had and as you now know from attachment theory, genes are only part of the story with transgenerational behavior being largely a consequence of early life experiences.  So all of us certainly, to a greater or lesser extent, possess an ability to change that behavior, albeit variably over a lifespan.

For (C) Bruce Perry ("The Boy who was Raised as a Dog") likes to use the extreme example of kids who witnessed the murder of a parent, most often the mother, and having the police report read "the children were unharmed...".  Now, we can surmise that the kids did not receive any physical wounds from the incident, but that kind of report reveals as well a cultural bias that kids are just "resilient".... and the assumption was that they would "just be OK" once placed in protective care.  Although we know better now, the system and the culture is still quite a bit behind in just how important these early life experiences are.  And just to add that 'little insults' to the developing child over a long stretch can cause as much damage as singular, high-stress events, because of the seemingly endless nature of enduring them.

With that sentiment, in both early and later life exposures, (B) is a behavior that I feel merits more caution than is given.  Because if Attachment Theory teaches the importance of quality AND quantity time in the guidance provided by adult caregivers, then should we ignore the ramifications of story telling by the mass media?  In an interesting twist, even though it seemed to be a bit of bonding between my wife and I over mid-winter TV viewing, I stopped at some point, just feeling a bit exhausted by medium, pace, content, and other things I couldn't really explain.  Wife was upset with this change but I encouraged her to keep watching if she was still enjoying this.  That lasted about two winters, then the past two winters she also just stopped, commenting on the sheer amount of time involved more than anything else.  But as a medium that most approach as 'entertainment', I just got more concerned about how this was influencing the cultivation of my OWN needs, wants, desires, etc., and not necessarily in a good way.  Just something for thought...

Brody Ekberg wrote:
....What I discovered is attachment theory and the effects that childhood trauma has on how people cope with difficulties, choose partners, behave in relationships, think about themselves and think about others. .....



This is where I'd like to finish with your statement in your intro post, not because I feel it has all the answers to your marital situation so much, but because I'm just so glad to see that it was brought up by you and others within the thread.  I worked for some years during my employment in the volunteer capacity assisting with the organization of a local chapter of a national child abuse prevention group.  That work put me in touch with the Attachment Parenting literature, its roots in the late John Bowlby's attachment theory, and the now oft-cited Adverse Childhood Experience (ACE) studies out of the Kaiser Permanente health system in California (but nationwide as well).  Just an opinion, but early childhood attachment needs and the manner in which these needs are deliberately or accidentally subverted is an enormous smoking gun in the general ills of society....and as you've observed, in the the ills of partnering and family rearing.  It is through this lens that my wife and I....probably mostly considered "wound mates" rather than "soul mates"....found the bulk of our answers to our individual and marital issues, even if greater action is needed to translate that information into healing.  So I'm grateful that attachment is being more and more appreciated and more widely discussed and understood for its impact on society at large.

Ironically, I was not going to post in this thread, partially because of all of the excellent responses already and also due to feeling that my marriage was just one of those like my parent's that was doomed to be unhappy until the bitter end of our lives.  But that, too, is a bit of a "vision trap"....of seeing my marriage through the lens of that of my parents (enmeshment, anyone?)...and having read many of the testimonies here, I can see that my expectations....from the juxtapositioning of my own experiences of marriage relative to the "Hollywood version"... is pretty,......well,......broken.  Improvements in that regard have come with time, empathy, compassion, and new perspective.

Never too late for a reset of these visions.....    Good luck in you and your wife's efforts, Brody.
 
pollinator
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Brody, you make a really good point about sticking with the old therapist because she'll see the improvements over time.  Realizing that, I think you're right and you should indeed stick with familiar.

I think the biggest things my husband and I disagree about are:  I love going and doing things with people and I like taking him with me, I love "showing him off" and having fun altogether with our friends.  He would rather stay home and play videogames with his friends on the phone.  So sometimes we have "discussions" about that and how happy it makes me when he comes out and does things with me.  Because my primary love language is quality time I've insisted that we go on one "date" a week.  It could be something free like swimming at the river in summer, or it could be dinner out, or whatnot, its about the time together rather than the money.  His primary love language is physical touch, so I make sure to cuddle him, snuggle him, have sex with him, etc.
The other thing we seem to disagree about is money, I know that if we're both doing our best then God will provide.  He knows that intellectually too, but gets really nervous when we have extra expenses and I have to reassure him that it will work out somehow.
And then there's his family.  I'd say that is the biggest point of contension between us.  I really like them and we're all close, as people they're cool, but as financial beings they're horendous and they do shit that stresses me out like crazy, and somehow always try to pull us into it.  Maybe the reason he's so nervous about money is because his family is incompetant about it?

Anyways I just wanted to mention some things we struggle with to see if they compare at all to the challenges you and your wife have.

One thing I can't figure out is why he enjoys it when I watch him play his games, why???  I mean that isn't very exciting to me.  I ask him why and he says "because then you're spending time with me" and I'm like "When we go do things we're spending time together, why don't you like that?"  And then we both laugh at each other because that difference will always be there.
 
Brody Ekberg
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Christopher Weeks wrote:

Brody Ekberg wrote:How do you deal with resentments and having a few things you would like to change in eachother?



I think the short answer is that I suck it up.

For instance, I resent that I do 80% of the housework. I don't meant to suggest that it consumes me -- but sometimes the unfairness of how my wife prioritizes her time, causing me to do an unfair amount of the housework bugs me. But like, what can I do about it? If I ask her do some chore, she's likely to do it. And it's likely to be harmonious enough. But neither is certain. And I've known for 30 years that's how it is. So, sometimes I resent it. But I love her and enjoy other things about her an awful lot, so put on the balance, it's something I live with. And I know there are things I do that she resents as well. And we've also been together long enough that we've seen those fluctuate.

She's writing a book. It takes a lot of time that she "should" be spending on me. Sometimes I resent that or the amount that she wants to discuss her research because it occupies such a large chunk of her brain. But I'm also jazzed by her project and want her to succeed. And when I do find myself resenting it, I can remind myself that it's not forever.

Also, I don't think of divorce as a failure state. If maintaining our marriage wasn't a net positive for both of us, we'd call it and move on. But I get way more out of it than I put in and she seems to feel the same.



Part of what brought me to the point of considering divorce was that I was sick of “sucking it up”. I was always justifying why she wasn’t helping more, why I should cut her more slack, why I can just suck it up even though it really bothers me. Because she was depressed and sleep deprived. The depression seems to be lifting and although she isn’t necessarily sleeping better, she is putting in a lot more effort now. Partly because she had more time and partly I think because shes doing whatever she can to make me feel like this is worthwhile. I hope that it isnt a show to to try to convince but more of a permanent change in behavior. I love my wife and want her to succeed as well, and think that a lot of the stuff she spends her time on is for a good cause (except for the time spent absorbed by her phone and the tv). But I also need help and would really appreciate someone taking care of the necessary things at home since I’m out making money 8 hours a day.

I used to think of divorce as a failure, mostly because of a religious background. But now, the way I see it is if we both put in an honest solid effort and we just weren’t good for eachother, divorce would kind of seem like a success. I mean, forcing a marriage to not be miserable for the rest of our lives just to avoid a few hard feelings like shame or guilt seems totally insane to me! But you point about the relationship being a net positive is very valid too. Once I started feeling that this was definitely a net drain on us both, that was a huge red flag.
 
Brody Ekberg
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Jane Mulberry wrote:Asking a question about something I think I notice here, but could be wrong about.

As someone with an avoidant attachment style, did the relationship somehow feel safer to you when you felt she wasn't fully committed to it, and less safe since she said she doesn't see divorce as an option now?

To me, it appears that you two have flip-flopped roles, from your previous post where you said you were fully committed and her seeming ready to leave; to her now saying she's fully committed and you questioning whether to stay in the relationship.

People with avoidant styles may feel more comfortable in relationships that seem more superficial or temporary, and marrying someone who's already broken up with you a few times seems to fit that category. But when their partner gets more serious and makes it clear they're not going to leave, it can cause serious discomfort to the more avoidant partner.

I'm not making a judgement about that, simply suggesting it's something to think about.

It seems to me that you both have an excellent opportunity to heal less healthy attachment styles and learn how to grow together into real intimacy.

I don't claim to have achieved that yet in my marriage, it's a lifelong journey. There's a theory that we choose the partners we choose in order to heal childhood trauma, and we definitely did. What I've discovered hubby and I need to look out for is any places where one of us is making the other behave toward us in damaging ways our parents did, or we're behaving toward them in damaging ways their parents did.



Honestly, I dont think the relationship has ever really felt that safe to either of us. She never felt safe because i had invalidated and dismissed a lot of her emotions in the past. I didnt feel safe because she was angry, aggressive and controlling. But “safety” only meant literal physical safety to me up until a few years ago. Emotional safety didnt even make any sense to me.

And I dont think that I’m very far on the avoidant spectrum. I actually think I’m relatively secure until triggered, and thats when I lean avoidant. And she has historically been by far my biggest and most consistent trigger.

We have flip-flopped, and more than once. I used to be anxious and she was avoidant as children. After breaking up and looking back at how I was behaving, I became disgusted with myself and I think I consciously decided to become avoidant, without any idea the consequences. I lived that way for years. After my “revelation” I became much more secure, but thats about the time she became super anxious, which tended to pull me back into avoidance. Very much a push-pull dynamic. Ive about exhausted the youtube algorithm on anxious avoidant relationships!

I definitely do not feel safe in this relationship right now, even though it is improving. I just worry that it will be temporary and she will slide back into old behaviors as soon as there’s a good reason (stress, being busy, life happens, pregnancy). Thats my big fear. I feel like what would have been healthy is for us to have divorced when we were at our lowest point. But now that it’s improving, divorce seems silly. But knowing that the improvements could be temporary or motivated by her fear of being alone doesn’t sit well with me.
 
Brody Ekberg
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Nicole Alderman wrote:
My husband is more like you in this aspect, especially in years past. We've been married for 16 years, and I've known him since I was 19 (exactly half my life now!). He's often talked about wanting to travel and go on adventures and would bemoan that we're tied down. But, also, he really likes the stability. And, since he's basically almost died twice (thanks Crohn's flare-ups), he's much happier that we have our home and stability. Sure, I've tied him down, but he's also lifted me up. And I've always been a constant in his life. His parents uprooted him, on average, every year of his life. He hated always moving and all the change. We balance each other.

It's easy to get caught up in a passion and let that drive us to greatness...or burn out. And burn out is real. We both pushed ourselves so hard in the past (especially the sleep deprivation and emotional distress from a colicky baby) that it resulted in some nasty auto-immune conditions for us (see the above note about him almost dying twice thanks to Crohn's).

Another thing to note, is that you really can burn yourself out. If you're body is constantly pumping adrenaline to get stuff done, your body might decide to give you some lovely Chronic Fatigue. This is rather common with people who have hypermobility. Since lots of our soft tissue is elastic, that often includes our veins. This results in low blood pressure. The body compensates by pumping you full of adrenaline. All though my childhood and early teens, it would take me HOURS to fall asleep, and I could stay awake all night without any tiredness in the morning. My body was pumping that much adrenaline, constantly! I finally got to a normal energy level as an adult, but the stress and sleep deprivation of parenting gave me full on fatigue that took YEARS (like 6+ years) to get back to some semblance of normal.

Slow and steady really can work well, and I like your idea of being grounded so you can teach others. One person can only do so much for permaculture. Why do you think Paul Wheaton made this forum? He knew he could only do so much. He still does a lot (and pushes himself way too far, far too often, causing all sorts of nasty health problems), but he knows he can do far more if he teaches others and creates a place where we can infect the world with permaculture.

Sometimes I feel down that I'm not doing more. But, moderating on this forum helps. Teaching the kids at my kid's homeschool co-op about natural building and historical skills helps. Teaching my kids helps. Talking about permaculture when it comes up naturally helps.

I'm a Christian and grew up Christian. I've found that trying to shove religion (be it permaculture or Christianity) down someone's throat tends to make them throw it up and never want another taste. But, if you live your life and share knowledge when applicable, you can sew the seeds of permaculture into people's minds. You can help them move up the Wheaton Eco Scale, bit by bit.

I guess what I'm saying is, sometimes being "tied down" can make a bigger impact than the epic permaculture adventures. Just like going an being a missionary in a country probably doesn't do nearly as much as just making connections in your own community.



Im sure you are right about burn out. I haven’t experienced it, but I know I’m not special and others have so…

My wife and I also balance eachother out. I think sometimes I just dont want to be balanced. Sometimes I want to put the petal to the metal, consequences be damned! Probably not the safest attitude, but sometimes I hate safety. It can be so slow and inefficient! But I know balance is key to a long, happy, healthy life. And you are totally correct about being more influential as part of a group or community than alone. I think my time spent living alone really formed a strong enough sense of independence in me to tend to want to just do it all on my own. Even if its hard and less safe. But Im working on that.

I found that Eco Scale a year or so ago. At first, it made me realize how far apart my wife and I are on that scale. And the fact that I want to keep progressing along contrasts with her being quite content with how things used to be. She has moved along on the scale over the years, and for the most part, i think she sees that its healthy. But she’s always looking backwards at what she used to have, how it used to be, how shes changed and what shes sacrificed. Im always looking forward. Maybe we both need to be more present and stop looking different directions!

This is a total tangent and probably could be its own thread, but do you view permaculture as almost a religion or ideology? I was raised Catholic but am not any sort of orthodox religion now. But I feel permaculture has filled the void in my life that I always thought a religion should. It answers all the questions Christianity couldn’t answer for me. It gives me purpose and meaning and hope. I wonder how many people feel similarly about it vs people who think its a cool way to garden 😆
 
Brody Ekberg
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Nicole Alderman wrote:
Maybe this is a good opportunity to apply the "be nice" permies rules in your relationship? I know I've learned a LOT about sharing my ideas kindly and non-judgmentally here on permies. At the root of it is sharing your opinion and experience and info without denigrating theirs.

I believe that people are smart and can be reasoned with. I'm a teacher by heart and trade, and maybe that's from my fundamental belief that people can learn. Maybe you can share information about what you think and believe in a "Hey, look at this! I found this really cool video/article/book and it said some really fascinating things." Share your passion and enthusiasm for the knowledge you have, rather than sharing the hatred and judgement for their knowledge.

I've had the honor of teaching history at my kids'  homeschool co-op. Apparently, a lot of people hate history and think it's dry and boring and just battles and rulers and dates to memorize. None of the kids in my class think that. Every day, I get at least one kid saying, "Why is history SO COOL!?" We carve runes into soapstone, weave, bind books, write with goose quills, etc. We make and use the stuff people in the past used, and we create cool stuff in the process. (I'm inspired by the PEP program here on permies and the focus on learning by doing cool, useful, meaningful things). But, all this is to say, when you share your enthusiasm for a topic and make it interesting, people are more likely to want it. You mentioned the Bible, and one of the quotes that always confused me was that  we're "to be the salt of the earth." Salt kills things! But, salt also preserves, it makes things tasty. It makes people come back for more. I try to be "salty" in my presentation--make the information tasty and make them want more. Being filled with resentment makes that REALLY hard, I know, but I think it can be done.

My husband and I had a span of years where I resented his spending and he resented some stuff I did. It made it hard to talk. But, we've moved past it. It took time and trying on both of our parts, but now I think we're closer than we have been since our kids were born. It can happen. There's hope, especially if you're both willing to work on it (and it sounds like your wife finally is)



I feel like Ive tried to share things with her in every possible way other than drill sergeant yelling technique (which i have considered many times). Ive shared through excitement and passion. Ive shared through morality and logic. Ive shared by silently leading by example. Ive shared by cautiously and timidly suggesting things. And I’ve been met with stiff resistance consistently. She knows that and has apologized. But its left me wondering how to move on.

I also just want to say that from what you’ve mentioned about your homeschooling co-op, it sounds like a really cool thing you have going on! That is kind of what I see for our future. We have a loop driveway, I made a garden and am starting a food forest in the middle, and my wife is working at school and day cares. We both want to homeschool the children we may have in the future. I envision either running some sort of permaculture based day care or alternative school. Or even just having regular school kids come for educational field trips and events. Thats the future Im working towards. Its just so hard having to work full time for now and having to put so much effort into a struggling marriage!
 
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Melissa Ferrin wrote:I have not read everyone's replies because I can very much sympathize with your situation and don't feel like I can handle reading everyone's stories right now. But I wanted to say that I found a lot of help in the Gottman Institute materials. I live in a place where unofficial file sharing is the norm, and I got his book The Seven Principals for Making Marriage Work, and also watched quite a few YouTube videos on the subject. I couldn't get my husband to read anything and we didn't have financial access to counselling but he agreed to watch videos on the subject with me.  We are still married (20 years) but the most difficult time was about 10 years ago.



Im familiar with the Gottman Institute somewhat (4 horsemen concept) but that’s about as far into it as I got. Maybe I will check out that book as well, thanks!

I guess where I’m at now is, should a couple have to “make” a marriage work, or is that a sign that maybe they would be better suited (more easily happy and healthy) in a different relationship? Not trying to give you doubts about your relationship, just saying, my wife and I dont have children. If we’re tired of trying to “make” it work, I wonder if there’s a difference relationship that would more or less work by nature without having to “make” it. Oir dog is a Texas Heeler. Im sure I could make her be a good retriever or a good service dog. But shes bred to chase and bite. Shes more suited to herding, regardless of what I try to make her do. I drive a Subaru Outback. I could make it keep hauling loads of firewood. Or I could just get a truck and use the outback for less work intensive things. I could make myself do an office job in a cubicle. But I’m much more naturally inclined to do manual labor outside…
 
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John Weiland wrote:[
In a variation on a contemporary popular saying, I often find myself when presented with conundrums asking myself "What would a tribe do?......".  I suspect many tribal and other societies that use matchmaking can list oodles of reasons for why it works.  One reason I recall being told was that it puts the marriage below that of societal/cultural harmony.  A solid marriage was good for the community....not necessarily existing to fulfill the dreams of the individuals.  Although this can seem like something that would lead to a dystopian story line for the latest TV miniseries, that critical viewpoint assumes that our desires and dreams emanating from within are all justified and worthy of acting upon.  Sometimes, they might not be.... and from what I've read, many tribal constructs built in mechanisms to 'balance' individual drives and needs with the harmony needed within the tribe.  At any rate, I somewhat conclude that many modern marriages have the Promethean task of trying to provide...by two people....what a tribe once provided:  In feelings of security, childrearing, food resources, social/emotional supports, whatever.  We don't have much of that structure anymore, so we do what we can....but with difficulty.

should we ignore the ramifications of story telling by the mass media?  In an interesting twist, even though it seemed to be a bit of bonding between my wife and I over mid-winter TV viewing, I stopped at some point, just feeling a bit exhausted by medium, pace, content, and other things I couldn't really explain.  Wife was upset with this change but I encouraged her to keep watching if she was still enjoying this.  That lasted about two winters, then the past two winters she also just stopped, commenting on the sheer amount of time involved more than anything else.  But as a medium that most approach as 'entertainment', I just got more concerned about how this was influencing the cultivation of my OWN needs, wants, desires, etc., and not necessarily in a good way.  Just something for thought...

This is where I'd like to finish with your statement in your intro post, not because I feel it has all the answers to your marital situation so much, but because I'm just so glad to see that it was brought up by you and others within the thread.  I worked for some years during my employment in the volunteer capacity assisting with the organization of a local chapter of a national child abuse prevention group.  That work put me in touch with the Attachment Parenting literature, its roots in the late John Bowlby's attachment theory, and the now oft-cited Adverse Childhood Experience (ACE) studies out of the Kaiser Permanente health system in California (but nationwide as well).  Just an opinion, but early childhood attachment needs and the manner in which these needs are deliberately or accidentally subverted is an enormous smoking gun in the general ills of society....and as you've observed, in the the ills of partnering and family rearing.  It is through this lens that my wife and I....probably mostly considered "wound mates" rather than "soul mates"....found the bulk of our answers to our individual and marital issues, even if greater action is needed to translate that information into healing.  So I'm grateful that attachment is being more and more appreciated and more widely discussed and understood for its impact on society at large.

Ironically, I was not going to post in this thread, partially because of all of the excellent responses already and also due to feeling that my marriage was just one of those like my parent's that was doomed to be unhappy until the bitter end of our lives.  But that, too, is a bit of a "vision trap"....of seeing my marriage through the lens of that of my parents (enmeshment, anyone?)...and having read many of the testimonies here, I can see that my expectations....from the juxtapositioning of my own experiences of marriage relative to the "Hollywood version"... is pretty,......well,......broken.  Improvements in that regard have come with time, empathy, compassion, and new perspective.

Never too late for a reset of these visions.....    Good luck in you and your wife's efforts, Brody.



Thank you for this very insightful response!

I think your comment about relationships maybe being too focused on individual wants, needs and expectations vs focusing on community wants, needs and expectations is something worth really considering. This is such an individualistic culture. I do feel like us being together would benefit the community, so long as we can work together towards getting children love and education, getting the community involved in producing some of their own food and have fun making connections with people in the process. I kind of see a less happy but more well rounded and mature couple doing fantastic things in the community on one side of the scale and on the other side, I see a couple so happy and madly in love that all they do is have fun and enjoy eachothers company, doing nothing for anyone else in the process. Probably an over simplification as I’m sure there can be a mix or healthy balance. But I would choose the former over the latter. Although, in the latter, if both were very much passionately involved in the same endeavors and their children get to see a super healthy, happy couple as their parents, there is a lot to be said for that! Would kids benefit more from watching their parents deal with difficulties and differences in healthy ways, or from seeing their parents so aligned, so on the same page that they never have to learn how to deal with difficulties and differences? And how important is happiness anyway? It certainly isnt the main goal of my life. But thats coming from a man who overworks himself and is in an unhappy marriage so…

Your comment about “wound mates vs soul mates” is interesting! Thats probably my wife and I as well. Is that true love? Who knows. It’s definitely more work than what I assume soul mates do. But maybe its more rewarding. Hopefully!
 
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you bring up so many interesting questions, Brody, and I think every one is a great rabbit hole to fall down.

On soul mates and "work-free marriage". I think there is always work, no matter how pretty a relationship looks. The work just may not be obvious. This is true for friendship and our casual social encounters as well- I can think of stores I don't go to because the person at the counter is a real jerk, and I take my custom elsewhere. I also have let friends go because they just take and don't give. All interactions involve some work, whether we consider it work or not. When there is all give and no take, then people decide to call it off. A marriage has more "teeth" than something casual, so we may feel it has to work out, but it still requires input. You may see the perfect couple or a pair of calm draft horses, but you don't see the years of sniping or therapy that might have made that couple what it is.

There have been a few references so far to villages and traditional pairings (arranged marriage). My spouse and I are also the first generation in both of our families whose marriages were not arranged, believe it or not! Maybe because of this, we both feel the privilege of having been able to choose the person we're with, and we also took this choosing very seriously.

Lastly: about trauma. My husband's father died very young and left the family in severe poverty, I grew up in a house wracked by PTSD (let me tell you from experience: that drill sergeant thing is best avoided).
I felt a very strong need to bring my kid up better, even though I had to learn new skills to do it. I wanted my kid to see parents with mutual respect, not abuse, and discipline based on love and good sense, not just "because I said so". My husband wanted to be a good father, without having ever had a father figure (he had one grandfather, who was an alcoholic and all-around monster). It was hard, but we did it.
You can do better than was done to you. It's worth it. But it takes a lot of work and if both parents are not 100% on board, it's not likely to be successful. This kid stuff is hard, and the stakes are high. I'm glad you're sorting this out before having kids.
 
Brody Ekberg
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Riona Abhainn wrote:Brody, you make a really good point about sticking with the old therapist because she'll see the improvements over time.  Realizing that, I think you're right and you should indeed stick with familiar.

I think the biggest things my husband and I disagree about are:  I love going and doing things with people and I like taking him with me, I love "showing him off" and having fun altogether with our friends.  He would rather stay home and play videogames with his friends on the phone.  So sometimes we have "discussions" about that and how happy it makes me when he comes out and does things with me.  Because my primary love language is quality time I've insisted that we go on one "date" a week.  It could be something free like swimming at the river in summer, or it could be dinner out, or whatnot, its about the time together rather than the money.  His primary love language is physical touch, so I make sure to cuddle him, snuggle him, have sex with him, etc.
The other thing we seem to disagree about is money, I know that if we're both doing our best then God will provide.  He knows that intellectually too, but gets really nervous when we have extra expenses and I have to reassure him that it will work out somehow.
And then there's his family.  I'd say that is the biggest point of contension between us.  I really like them and we're all close, as people they're cool, but as financial beings they're horendous and they do shit that stresses me out like crazy, and somehow always try to pull us into it.  Maybe the reason he's so nervous about money is because his family is incompetant about it?

Anyways I just wanted to mention some things we struggle with to see if they compare at all to the challenges you and your wife have.

One thing I can't figure out is why he enjoys it when I watch him play his games, why???  I mean that isn't very exciting to me.  I ask him why and he says "because then you're spending time with me" and I'm like "When we go do things we're spending time together, why don't you like that?"  And then we both laugh at each other because that difference will always be there.



Once the new year comes insurance will cover more therapy and then I’ll see what my wife thinks about going back to the same therapist together. If things are still improving then I think she may be willing, since the therapist could notice and congratulate her/us on the progress that we’ve made together.

My wife used to like to bring me out and “show me off” in a way. She used to tell her friends that I’m like an angel here to help her. Thats a totally different thing that could be analyzed and delved into. I used to be flattered by that but now I realize what unrealistic expectations she was holding for me and how I was codependently trying to fulfill them. I told her recently that I am a man, not an angel. I make mistakes, I do things we dont like, and I’m here to live life not help you. She understands and I think that had helped us both. But anyway, she does like to go out and do social things. She craves it. I would always prefer to go hunt, fish, do firewood, garden or work on house projects. But, when she does get me out with people I almost always enjoy it and it does feel good to build relationships with the community. Its just not my tendency. Enjoying and feeling good are not my top priority sometimes. Sometimes I just want to accomplish things and make progress towards my goals.

We struggle a bit with the love language thing. She loves getting and giving gifts. I generally dont care much for gifts. I much prefer help, or acts of service. We both like quality time, but we prefer to spend out time differently, so finding ways to get quality time together without either sacrificing too much is hard. We tried doing regular date nights but once a week was not realistic for us. Once a month we can do pretty well, but my motivation for bringing her out has been diminished by her horrible attitude with life the last couple years. Id rather just be productive at home and have her be miserable than go out of my way for her and still have her be miserable! But hopefully that is changing for good now.

And I can relate a bit to your confusion about what he considers quality time. My wife loves to “watch” movies with me. She always has. But I say “watch” because what it almost always had amounted to is me deciding to watch a movie with her to make her happy while she falls asleep half way through. Then I either watch the rest alone because I dont want to risk waking her up, or because I’m invested by now and actually care about how the stupid thing ends! Either way, I would rather not be staring at a tv! Tv was a big part of her childhood though and a source of comfort for her so I can understand that. For me, its a big electric distraction box taking me away from real life and what’s meaningful to me. Its hard to bridge that gap!
 
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✋I am a happily married permie whose spouse is not at all enthralled about permaculture, and we don't tend to share hobbies/interests/activities/music.  

But we share a foundation of faith and a commitment to each other, and that is more than enough for a strong marriage.  

Love is indeed a choice.

So yes, "complimentary" can definitely work!

It has made me a more well rounded person and even opened my aperture of skills and permaculture opportunities if you can believe it.  There are places I've gone and inspiration gained and even new gardens grown and teaching gardening to the next generation!  All of that I never would have achieved if my awesome wife was instead "like-minded".  

I came to a fork in my life's road, when my military career came to an end.  I was wishing to start a farm ASAP.  But instead of pulling her down my permaculture path into the woods, I took a 3 year detour hand in hand with her, and tended the garden of her soul a little (letting her embrace her deep needs like travel and meaningful career), and it has made all the difference.

We're different, it can be hard but it can also be awesome and liberating.

So if I were you two, I'd commit today to giving up the "d-------" word. We made that decision early in our marriage to get it out of our lexicon, permanently.  Don't let it cross your lips.  Toss it in the trash!  And train yourselves as best you can to think highly of each other, and not resent eachother.  Talk to (and about) each other as though you bear the image of God, and make your requests plainly and openly.  

Best to you and your wife, sir!
 
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My wife and I have been married over 24v years.  Most of it has been happy.  Like all couples we have had our moments of conflict.  She had a daughter and I had three sons so we came into marriage with a lot of baggage.  We decided any two people who love each other and want to be happy can be.  It really is a choice but both have to agree.  We share probably 60% of the same interests.  That helps but we allow each other time to pursue our non common interests as well.  We decided on a division of chores early on that really helps.  When she works out side the homed I do 45-50% of household chores.  When  she stays home she does 90+%.  That way in the evening we have free time together.  My ex used to play all day and then when I got home from work expected me to help 50-50 with chores.  I never had time for me and we never had fun timed together.  It was a recipe for disaster.  

We are not wealthy but live well below our means.  We have the household account for all essentials Where we deposit all of our wages minus bonuses.  She has her account that she spends the money from her side jobs and I have my account from my side jobs that I spend how I want.  If we want to do something fun we look at household account and if we can take some money and then we each contribute from our own accounts.  I think it is important to have both joint and private money.  In our case she pays the bills etc.  from the household account.  If we are short which is rare we may have to dip into our spending money.  Neither of use make large expenditures even from our personal accounts without discussing it together.  We have never vetoed each other but occasionally after talking about it we decide it might not be a good idea or we even agree to help each other.

Decide on division of labor, finances, and use of free time.  Allow each to grow in separate ways as well.  Be willing to compromise.   If you both choose to be happy you can be!!!



 
Nicole Alderman
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Brody Ekberg wrote:This is a total tangent and probably could be its own thread, but do you view permaculture as almost a religion or ideology? I was raised Catholic but am not any sort of orthodox religion now. But I feel permaculture has filled the void in my life that I always thought a religion should. It answers all the questions Christianity couldn’t answer for me. It gives me purpose and meaning and hope. I wonder how many people feel similarly about it vs people who think its a cool way to garden 😆



Definitely its own thread in the Cider Press. There might actually be one there already! I know we've covered the topic a bit, but I'm not sure if it has its own thread.

Brody Ekberg wrote:I guess where I’m at now is, should a couple have to “make” a marriage work, or is that a sign that maybe they would be better suited (more easily happy and healthy) in a different relationship? Not trying to give you doubts about your relationship, just saying, my wife and I dont have children. If we’re tired of trying to “make” it work, I wonder if there’s a difference relationship that would more or less work by nature without having to “make” it. Oir dog is a Texas Heeler. Im sure I could make her be a good retriever or a good service dog. But shes bred to chase and bite. Shes more suited to herding, regardless of what I try to make her do. I drive a Subaru Outback. I could make it keep hauling loads of firewood. Or I could just get a truck and use the outback for less work intensive things. I could make myself do an office job in a cubicle. But I’m much more naturally inclined to do manual labor outside…



My husband I constantly reference the old DC Talk song "Love is a verb." It's not a feeling. It's something we do.

I was thinking the other day that the Spanish covers this better than English. In Spanish, if you like something, you say "A me me gusta" ("it's pleasing to me") and if you really like something, you say "A me me encanto" ("it enchants me"). But, to love someone is "Amar" ("to love"). The things that are feelings, like liking baseball or loving chocolate are worded very different from loving someone. When you have a feeling of liking something, you are enchanted by it. It just happens. You don't control it. But, when you love someone, YOU are doing the action. This reminds me that love is an act that we do. It's not a feeling that we have.

Sure, the feelings make the act easier. But, it's still work. Feelings come and go. They are ephemeral. My marriage vows had "in sickness and in health"--so I take that to mean that marriage is a pledge to work on it, in sickness and in health...even mental sickness. I know I've gone through mental downtimes. My husband got frustrated that I wasn't responding to his cute romantic surprises the way he expected. But, this wasn't because I didn't appreciate them--I just am not good at responding to surprises. But, he stopped doing cute romantic things because he didn't see they were being appreciated, so why try? Sometimes, things are appreciated even if you don't see them.

In life, there's always hard things to work through. There's always going to be hardships. Sometimes, the grass is greener on the other side...but usually it's not. I've watched many people change jobs, churches, friends, locations, etc over and over hoping for things to be easier. But, they're always complaining that there's something terrible about where they're at. Maybe some of that terribleness was from their own perspective? Sure, there are abusive workplaces. There are war-torn areas or that constantly flood and it makes sense to move. But, I think those are rare compared to the instances where we could see the beauty and potential in where we live or work. Where we can see that the "problems are the solutions" (to put it in permaculture terms).

My parents have been married 40 years. My grandparents were married for nearly 70 years. I'm sure they struggled. I've seen some resentment from in the hard times. But, they pledged to work through it in sickness and in health, till death did they part. And they have. People always compliment them on their relationships...but they wouldn't be happily married all these years later if they hadn't pushed through and worked and LOVED through the hard times.
 
Brody Ekberg
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B Lee Davis wrote:My wife and I have been married over 24v years.  Most of it has been happy.  Like all couples we have had our moments of conflict.  She had a daughter and I had three sons so we came into marriage with a lot of baggage.  We decided any two people who love each other and want to be happy can be.  It really is a choice but both have to agree.  We share probably 60% of the same interests.  That helps but we allow each other time to pursue our non common interests as well.  We decided on a division of chores early on that really helps.  When she works out side the homed I do 45-50% of household chores.  When  she stays home she does 90+%.  That way in the evening we have free time together.  My ex used to play all day and then when I got home from work expected me to help 50-50 with chores.  I never had time for me and we never had fun timed together.  It was a recipe for disaster.  

We are not wealthy but live well below our means.  We have the household account for all essentials Where we deposit all of our wages minus bonuses.  She has her account that she spends the money from her side jobs and I have my account from my side jobs that I spend how I want.  If we want to do something fun we look at household account and if we can take some money and then we each contribute from our own accounts.  I think it is important to have both joint and private money.  In our case she pays the bills etc.  from the household account.  If we are short which is rare we may have to dip into our spending money.  Neither of use make large expenditures even from our personal accounts without discussing it together.  We have never vetoed each other but occasionally after talking about it we decide it might not be a good idea or we even agree to help each other.

Decide on division of labor, finances, and use of free time.  Allow each to grow in separate ways as well.  Be willing to compromise.   If you both choose to be happy you can be!!!





Division of labor is on my list of things to discuss this weekend. The last couple years in particular I have been doing the majority of all work (money making, firewood, chickens, garden, house projects, cooking, cat and dog stuff). She has been doing most of the laundry, cleaning and maybe 70% of the dishes. This has caused resentments in me despite me always justifying why I should cut her some slack. It has improved a bit now that she has a little more time and now that she’s aware how overwhelmed I have been and it’s consequences. But what still makes me angry is how she can complain about having to wash dishes more frequently than me when I agreed to her buying a dishwasher and installing for her (i despise the thing and the whole idea of it). Plus, when I was off work doing physical therapy for a few months I literally cooked both of us 3 meals a day, did all the dishes, laundry and basic housework, trained her new dog and still had time to snowshoe and enjoy myself. I did all this with a smile. She has to wash dishes and do laundry more than me and it’s a whole problem worth discussing in her mind!

That is an interesting setup you have with finances. I never thought of that. But it does make sense. I earn probably 90% of our income and it all goes into our joint checking and savings accounts (and my 401k). But the has access to all of that. Her income also goes there too, which I obviously have access to as well. But that means that, as the saver, I routinely get irritated when she’s buying more clothes and shoes and spending money at the coffee shop with OUR money. If it was her money, then whatever.

My parents had a weird setup. My dad made 90% of the income and, as far as I know, it all went into checking, savings and retirement. But my mom also worked and she kept her money separate for “her things”. So basically my dad funded life and she funded herself. Seems unfair and strange to me! But maybe that was their workaround for her spending “their” money on herself.

I know other couples who keep everything separate and I dont know how that can work.
 
Nicole Alderman
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Another option for couples is to make a budget. Figure out how much money goes to bills, clothing, car expenses, emergency fund, etc. And then set aside an amount for each person that's a "personal spending" amount. Depending on the amount you make, that might be $100/month, or $10 a month. The spouse can save up their personal spending to buy bigger things, or spend it all each month. They can spend it however they want.

For other purchases that aren't necessities (say getting a pretty new light fixture, or dishwasher or a new wheelbarrow or chainsaw or expensive new coat), then both discuss the purchase to see if it's a good idea.

Speaking of dishwashers, I love mine. Yes, I know that a sink can be more efficient. But, it's not that much more efficient. For me, the mental health benefits of being able to just put all the dishes into the dishwasher is immense. Every time I put a dish in there, I don't have to see it and feel overwhelmed. If I have to clear the table and counter and put everything in the sink, then every time I put it there, I feel overwhelmed at the amount of MORE work I will have to do. Not everyone else deal with this, but I sure do. The dishwasher turns giant task into one dish at a time going into the dishwasher, where it is "done." This is so much better for my mental health that I think it's worth the small amount of extra electrical power. I'll take shorter showers and drive less and plant more food to compensate!
 
Brody Ekberg
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Nicole Alderman wrote:
My husband I constantly reference the old DC Talk song "Love is a verb." It's not a feeling. It's something we do.

I was thinking the other day that the Spanish covers this better than English. In Spanish, if you like something, you say "A me me gusta" ("it's pleasing to me") and if you really like something, you say "A me me encanto" ("it enchants me"). But, to love someone is "Amar" ("to love"). The things that are feelings, like liking baseball or loving chocolate are worded very different from loving someone. When you have a feeling of liking something, you are enchanted by it. It just happens. You don't control it. But, when you love someone, YOU are doing the action. This reminds me that love is an act that we do. It's not a feeling that we have.

Sure, the feelings make the act easier. But, it's still work. Feelings come and go. They are ephemeral. My marriage vows had "in sickness and in health"--so I take that to mean that marriage is a pledge to work on it, in sickness and in health...even mental sickness. I know I've gone through mental downtimes. My husband got frustrated that I wasn't responding to his cute romantic surprises the way he expected. But, this wasn't because I didn't appreciate them--I just am not good at responding to surprises. But, he stopped doing cute romantic things because he didn't see they were being appreciated, so why try? Sometimes, things are appreciated even if you don't see them.

In life, there's always hard things to work through. There's always going to be hardships. Sometimes, the grass is greener on the other side...but usually it's not. I've watched many people change jobs, churches, friends, locations, etc over and over hoping for things to be easier. But, they're always complaining that there's something terrible about where they're at. Maybe some of that terribleness was from their own perspective? Sure, there are abusive workplaces. There are war-torn areas or that constantly flood and it makes sense to move. But, I think those are rare compared to the instances where we could see the beauty and potential in where we live or work. Where we can see that the "problems are the solutions" (to put it in permaculture terms).

My parents have been married 40 years. My grandparents were married for nearly 70 years. I'm sure they struggled. I've seen some resentment from in the hard times. But, they pledged to work through it in sickness and in health, till death did they part. And they have. People always compliment them on their relationships...but they wouldn't be happily married all these years later if they hadn't pushed through and worked and LOVED through the hard times.



Ive always thought of love as more than just a feeling. But I didn’t consider it to be a verb/act. Thats a new way of thinking about it for me.

And the “in sickness and health” vow is what kept me here through the last few years. That and hope. But I’ve grown to kind of despise hope honestly. And I realized that keeping a vow through narcissistic emotional abuse, constant complaints and criticisms and always feeling inadequate and at fault is not healthy. Vows be damned, we both deserve better than that. But here I am. I stuck through what was hopefully the worst of it and now things are improving. And I hope (theres that damned hope again) that improvements continue.

I totally feel where your husband is coming from by stopping the romantic things because they didnt seem to be appreciated. I think it’s important to let people know when you appreciate things they do, even if its in a cold, short or less than enthusiastic way. At least they know then. Its like saying “I love you”. I could go a long time without hearing or saying that phrase to my wife. We say it multiple times a day and for me it almost loses meaning at that frequency. But for her, she needs to hear it to think its true. So even though I love her and she knows I love her and I don’t necessarily even want to say it sometimes, I still do so that she can hear it.

Another thing you mentioned that I have never thought of, at least not in the sense of this relationship, is “the problems are the solutions”. As someone who fully subscribes to permaculture, I am going to start applying that thought process to our marriage. It seems obvious now. Our problems were largely attachment styles and communication issues. So learning about healthy attachment and healthy communication has been part of the solution. There are other problems too though, her sleeping poorly being a big one. I wonder if theres a way to apply that mindset to that problem. We both agree that her sleeping better regularly would improve both our quality of life, but making that happen has been a struggle. Ive even wondered if its me, personally. If we’re in such an unhealthy dynamic that its my literal presence near her that keeps her from sleeping well… Not sold on that idea but it is something Ive wondered.

 
Brody Ekberg
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Nicole Alderman wrote:Another option for couples is to make a budget. Figure out how much money goes to bills, clothing, car expenses, emergency fund, etc. And then set aside an amount for each person that's a "personal spending" amount. Depending on the amount you make, that might be $100/month, or $10 a month. The spouse can save up their personal spending to buy bigger things, or spend it all each month. They can spend it however they want.

For other purchases that aren't necessities (say getting a pretty new light fixture, or dishwasher or a new wheelbarrow or chainsaw or expensive new coat), then both discuss the purchase to see if it's a good idea.

Speaking of dishwashers, I love mine. Yes, I know that a sink can be more efficient. But, it's not that much more efficient. For me, the mental health benefits of being able to just put all the dishes into the dishwasher is immense. Every time I put a dish in there, I don't have to see it and feel overwhelmed. If I have to clear the table and counter and put everything in the sink, then every time I put it there, I feel overwhelmed at the amount of MORE work I will have to do. Not everyone else deal with this, but I sure do. The dishwasher turns giant task into one dish at a time going into the dishwasher, where it is "done." This is so much better for my mental health that I think it's worth the small amount of extra electrical power. I'll take shorter showers and drive less and plant more food to compensate!



We tried budgeting several years ago and the amount of receipt tracking, note taking, number crunching and time involved just wasnt worth it for us. I hate paperwork and numbers and its very hard for me to put much time and effort into playing with numbers on paper, especially when saving is so easy for me. Now, if she wanted to do the number crunching and paperwork and report back to me, I would be all for that! But we do need to discuss finances soon. I see a lot of recurring monthly payments in our bank account that I don’t understand and its been years since we really looked at where our money is going on a monthly basis. I make a lot of money each paycheck and it is not reflected in the way we live or our bank account as far as I’m concerned.

The dishwasher thing is like politics 😆 I read several forums online and here on permies about the pros and cons just to see if my bias was unreasonable or if I was missing something. My conclusion is that there’s just as many reasons for it as against it and it just boils down to priorities and preferences. I never had a dishwasher growing up. My dad actually tried to convince my mom to get one and she refused (surprised the hell out of me!). My first job was as a dishwasher. Ive washed dishes my whole life and just accepted it as I accept every other daily activity that I dont want to do (go to work, wipe my ass, shovel snow, pay bills, fix broken stuff around the house). My wife did grow up with a dishwasher and never worked as a dishwasher in her life. Like you, seeing dishes in the sink causes anxiety and stress. And she is convinced they are more “environmentally friendly” than hand washing (I am not sold on that at all). My main problems with them are: the cost to buy them, the space they take up (nowhere for the garbage can now), the fact that I now have to bend over twice for every dish (to load and unload each thing), and it throws a wrench into my understanding of where we are at with our dishes. Usually, I will put off doing dishes until I see that the sink is full. Now the sink is usually empty, regardless of how many dirty dishes there are. I have no visual cue (out of site out of mind for me). Plus, some things cant go in it so now I need to learn and segregate dishes. And then having to partly wash things before and still having some things come out dirty afterwards… I actually told her right after I installed it that I probably wont really use it at all. I still hand wash most of the time. And she still complains about dishes, which is totally unreasonable to me (told her this) considering I do dishes some of the time too, I agreed to and installed the damn machine despite my dislike for them and I didnt even ask how much it costed!

Oh yea, and I dont trust the weird film that the dishes have on them afterwards. And the damned thing had an automatic heated dry cycle that cant be turned off. God will dry them for free without being asked, I dont need to burn coal for that!
 
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There is so much wise counsel here - so only one thing I will add:

The sleeping issue is a Very. Big. Deal. and I would do EVERYthing you can to solve that as a first priority.
Trauma, depression, etc are all literal, physical injuries.  Healing requires adequate sleep - that's when the physical repair occurs.

Sleep separately, for a bit, to see if it helps her.  Dial up the sex "for medicinal reasons" if it helps.  Experiment with whatever you can think of
And insist on all that sleep hygiene stuff - like no screens 2 hours before bedtime etc.

Treat her physical well-being (and yours, of course) as top priority.  I'm not saying "the rest will follow" - but I do think it's a prerequisite for any of the the very good ideas within this thread having a good chance of being effective.

 
Melissa Ferrin
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I'm back because this morning on my moring walk I heard an episode of the podcast Diary of a CEO and the guest was Esther Perel, someone whose videos I watched a lot of several years ago.  The podcast episode was given the clickbaity title Why Men Love Porn More Than Their Partner. But really the bulk of the long conversation was devoted to how to improve the quality of our relationships. It was a really great conversation I highly recommend finding it on the podcast service of your choice.
 
John Weiland
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Brody Ekberg wrote:

Your comment about “wound mates vs soul mates” is interesting! Thats probably my wife and I as well. Is that true love? Who knows. It’s definitely more work than what I assume soul mates do. But maybe its more rewarding. Hopefully!



Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that 'wound mates' was a term created to explain the phenomenon of two people who seemed to fall madly in love only to have it fizzle and burn out a short time later.  And it was more characteristic of lather, rinse, repeat serial mating behavior, but not exclusively so.  Although such partnering *can* lead to new awareness of the behaviors and growth stemming from that awareness, the original coining of the term was describing more how each of the partners was re-enacting old patterns of emotional injury from earlier in their lives and not learning or growing from the experience.  It seems so contrary:  Why partner up with someone who is going to actually put you back into horrible or traumatic experiences that you swore you never again wanted to experience?  And yet I suspect each of us recognizes some of this in ourselves or in some other person or couple within their social sphere (e.g. "Why does he/she keep shacking up with these abusive losers?!").  The current answer that I recall falls within something Freud originally called the "Repetition Compulsion", although I think it was later practitioners who leaned in more to postulate that such a person is (subconsciously) looking to 're-enact' old scenarios in order to "get it right this time".....to get 'resolution' to something that is psychologically unresolved from many years ago.  So if awareness does not come from being with a wound mate, one may end up just going through this cycle over and over....never reaching 'resolution' on old emotional injury.  With awareness, some recognition of the cycle....the pattern....can come about and, often with additional guidance, some healing of those wounds and abatement of the pattern....of the 'compulsion'....finally can occur.  As always, healing takes a different schedule for each person and likely over many years.  

It certainly appears that the 'soul mate' phenomenon of the variety that appears to require 'no work' also *can* occur, but I just suspect that it is as culturally worshiped as it is rare.  Just MHO....
 
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Brody Ekberg wrote:
I feel like Ive tried to share things with her in every possible way other than drill sergeant yelling technique (which i have considered many times). Ive shared through excitement and passion. Ive shared through morality and logic. Ive shared by silently leading by example. Ive shared by cautiously and timidly suggesting things. And I’ve been met with stiff resistance consistently. She knows that and has apologized. But its left me wondering how to move on.



But why is it so important to you that she be converted to your way of thinking? Are you able to tolerate a sense of differentiation from her? Or are you expecting her to mirror you to an unhealthy degree?



Brody Ekberg wrote:
I also think that divorce could be catastrophic for her. She’s never been alone, has insecurities, self esteem issues, can’t afford much based off of her current income and has the whole conundrum of wanting children but is losing eggs by the month which causes stress in her life. But all if that being true does not mean I should stay married to her. That seems like a very inappropriate reason to be married in my opinion. But yes, all of that would weigh in my and definitely would give me feelings of guilt if we split and she spirals downhill.



I am not encouraging you to divorce, but it does seem like there is a lot that you are unhappy with and do not necessarily respect about your wife. So if you already know deep down that you do not see a future with her, the kindest thing you can do is cut her loose so that she can move on and try to have children with someone else. Waiting until having children is no longer an option for her and then divorcing would be more traumatic in the long run.

 
Riona Abhainn
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Hi Brody, I really enjoy television and movies too, and my husband doesn't.  Sollution:  I go watch stuff with my father at his house a lot, or I watch it on my own and occasionally have my husband watch things with me.  It takes us a super long time to crawl through a season of a television program, but I've learnt to be okay with that.  Just like I don't enjoy his games, but sitting with him occasionally and watching him play is something I'll do for him, if there's a really solid plotline, I pretend its a show, but a show where we get to decide some of what happens next, and that makes it better.

The one thing I've heard you say that does concern me  is that you are feeling a bit unsafe emotionally, because you worry she could become emotionally abusive again.  If that happens and she doesn't stop that behaviour then I'd say its time to think about leaving, because being emotionally abused isn't good and no one should have to go through that.  Divorce was invented for things like abuse.  Hopefully she really is getting her behaviour together and making new better choices.  My older brother had to divorce his wife because she wasn't willing to stop being verbally emotionally abusive to him, and he did it even though he was still in love with her, and they continued to communicate weekly until she passed away, but he knew he couldn't live with her.

So I do believe there are viable reasons for divorce, I don't believe that divorce so someone can grow or some ephemeral idea like that is a good reason to get divorced, that is my own opinion though and you have every right to disregard it.  I think its good that you aren't the type of person to divorce flippantly, I can see that about you, you really want to try for something you perceive will be best, and you're trying to figure out what the best choice is.
 
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There is much good advice here.
I wonder though, if it's wise in a relationship to air one's spouses 'problems' so publicly?
I realize this is how it's done now in the age of social media but public criticism of someone who's not there to speak for themselves goes against the grain for this old person who will be married fifty years in 2024
My biggest suggestion might be to only write what you want her to read and to let her know about this thread if she doesn't already?

Good luck in whatever you two decide to do
 
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When was the last time you said, "I love you"?

Some relationship folks say this too casually and in others, not enough.

When did you and your wife last have a Date Night"?



Source

 
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Brody Ekberg wrote:

As for compatibility, I just mean do the differences compliment eachother or cause conflict? [...] Our differences directly cause conflict and require constant compromises to avoid resentments. She says that now that she isn’t actively resisting and opposing me that she can change and maybe learn to like more of the things that I do. That sounds nice on the surface, but I dont want her to change for me.[...]

It’s interesting to me that the lockdown stressed your relationship. [...]

As for being right or being in a relationship, I totally understand where the advisor is coming from. But what if they dont have to be mutually exclusive? What if both parties agree on things, so both feel “right” and the relationship is fine? [...]



Differences may cause conflict, of course, that's is part of making it work.
About changing the other person, you don't need to change her, or she changing you. It's more like a behavioral adaptation. You don't need to stop loving gardening for her, but you can stop bothering her about all that you wanted to share with her that she does not appreciate. It's the same in her side. She doesn't need to change her mind, but she can change her attitudes, if that is what takes for both of you being happy.

Lockdowns were hard for us because most of what we love to do together is outside. Also, being locked with the children while I was away working (my work allowed me to go out to the office), was too stressful on her.

Because in a relationship there is no right or wrong. There is what works and what doesn't work. What works for us, might not work for both of you. This is what takes time to assimilate. You are not writting a scientifical paper that must be right, you are trying to make a relationship work.


I'd like to add another suggestion. What if we could apply the 12 principles for designing an approach to our relationships? The relationship is the field, each one is different from others and requires close observation. The yield is feeling good with the other one. The energy in this context is emotional energy. Renewables are things that do not exhaust by their use, like saying 'I love you', it's a renewable resource. You seem to have done a lot of observation already. Small and slow solutions, valueing the edges and accepting feedback has great potential.
Maybe this project is less dirt-hands than what you are used to, but maybe facing your current challenge with a familiar mindset is what it takes to have success.
 
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I first want to say that living with another person is not always easy. Easy is something that we may want, so that we do not have to do the work that a strong relationship requires. The second thing is that none of us is perfect, and expecting the "other partner" to change to meet my needs, usually leads to disappointment.
I say this as a retired social work counselor who has worked with lots of people and been married to the same person for 50 years. To  me, the foundation to a successful marriage is love. Without it on both sides the odds are slim it will last. But love is not something many people understand. If it was understood my most people, we would have a very different world. When I say love, I am not just talking about the emotion, but about its features like:  non judgement, forgiveness, compassion, understanding, honesty, etc.
To truly love another you must first love yourself and see the beauty and strength within yourself. For if you can't see it in yourself, you likely can't see it in your partner.
Even with love for the other in both partners, that is not enough.  We still need knowledge of the partner's needs wants and beliefs, and an ability to problem solve and compromise and be responsible for our actions.
That is a tall order. So the best one can do is to try to be the best self they can be.
Sometimes, even after both partners give it their best try, perhaps through counseling, or self improvement, it doesn't work. Ending a relationship is perhaps the best outcome for both people.
That would constitute the best advice I could give to those who are contemplating a marriage or long term relationship.
 
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Almost everybody has strong imbalances. This makes it so that almost everybody has unconscious and uncontrollable reactions. Depending on the imbalances of each person in a couple, the evolution of the relationship issues will vary in speed and intensity. People in the past divorced less frequently; I believe it wasn't only due to stronger religious beliefs but mostly due to better quality food and a better diet. If you want to stay together both of you will need to get onboard with becoming more balanced (research TCM dietary info, go to TCM doctors, meditate, do qi gong/yoga, be more in nature, etc.). If you don't stay together I would still recommend you try to become more balanced and look for someone whom is more balanced. Two very imbalanced people can stay together forever if the imbalances are such that issues don't build up; but I think that's not very common plus people's imbalances morph over time (and even over seasons). I do believe though that everything works out for the best, even if at the time it seems not to be true. Good luck.
 
Brody Ekberg
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Mary Gallos wrote:There is so much wise counsel here - so only one thing I will add:

The sleeping issue is a Very. Big. Deal. and I would do EVERYthing you can to solve that as a first priority.
Trauma, depression, etc are all literal, physical injuries.  Healing requires adequate sleep - that's when the physical repair occurs.

Sleep separately, for a bit, to see if it helps her.  Dial up the sex "for medicinal reasons" if it helps.  Experiment with whatever you can think of
And insist on all that sleep hygiene stuff - like no screens 2 hours before bedtime etc.

Treat her physical well-being (and yours, of course) as top priority.  I'm not saying "the rest will follow" - but I do think it's a prerequisite for any of the the very good ideas within this thread having a good chance of being effective.



I agree that the sleep issue is huge. Possibly the biggest factor in all of this. But we’ve been struggling with this for years. I have a separate thread in the personal challenges forum about her sleep issues from a year or two ago.

She seems to gradually sleep worse and worse until she’s so exhausted that she finally sleeps well for a few days to a week. Then it will start to dwindle away again. She hasn’t consistently slept well in probably at least 7 years, maybe longer. She tends to fall asleep well but if/when she wakes up anytime after midnight she really struggles falling back asleep. She says it isnt her thoughts or her mind, its discomfort that keeps her tossing and turning. She has circulation issues and when desperate, she tends to sleep on her side with her shoulder rolling in towards eachother, which cuts off her circulation and makes her arms go numb.

She has tried a variety of different things to help but none have been too successful, and she hasn’t been very consistent with any of them. And I have suggested a long list of things that should help but she hasnt even tried most of them. Partly because she “shouldnt have to” (she thinks since other people sleep well that she shouldn’t need to try so hard) and partly because she has been resisting and opposing everything I say for the last few years or more. But I told her, if I was her and was that desperate I would try anything. And the first things I would try would be the easy free things, which is what I suggested: no screens within 2 hours of bed, no food within 2 hours of bed, eliminating inflammatory foods, daily exercise and fresh air, no caffeine (especially after noon), getting sunlight in her eyes first thing in the morning, and doing something relaxing like meditation or reading before bed. I have even suggested how she can sleep on her side while also preventing her shoulders from rolling in. She wont do any of it. At least not consistently or diligently for more than a couple days. I have woken up to a completely hysterical wife, raging angry and crying right away in the morning so many times because she has to go to work despite being so exhausted and not sleeping much all night. I used to want to help. I used to try to help. I used to feel bad. Now, its hard for me to even care anymore. I mean, if something is such a problem, do whatever you can to fix it. If you arent willing to do whatever you can to fix it, either it isn’t actually that much of a problem to you, you’re addicted to suffering, or theres some sort of dysfunction going on that I dont have the obligation, desire or patience to deal with.

The only times she can remember sleeping really well (for more than 1 or two nights) was while on vacations. So that makes me think it could have something to do with lack of stress and responsibility or being in a completely different climate (we live in Michigan and the vacations where she slept well were Florida and Jamaica).

 
Brody Ekberg
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Melissa Ferrin wrote:I'm back because this morning on my moring walk I heard an episode of the podcast Diary of a CEO and the guest was Esther Perel, someone whose videos I watched a lot of several years ago.  The podcast episode was given the clickbaity title Why Men Love Porn More Than Their Partner. But really the bulk of the long conversation was devoted to how to improve the quality of our relationships. It was a really great conversation I highly recommend finding it on the podcast service of your choice.



Thank you, Ill try to find it.
 
Brody Ekberg
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John Weiland wrote:

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that 'wound mates' was a term created to explain the phenomenon of two people who seemed to fall madly in love only to have it fizzle and burn out a short time later.  And it was more characteristic of lather, rinse, repeat serial mating behavior, but not exclusively so.  Although such partnering *can* lead to new awareness of the behaviors and growth stemming from that awareness, the original coining of the term was describing more how each of the partners was re-enacting old patterns of emotional injury from earlier in their lives and not learning or growing from the experience.  It seems so contrary:  Why partner up with someone who is going to actually put you back into horrible or traumatic experiences that you swore you never again wanted to experience?  And yet I suspect each of us recognizes some of this in ourselves or in some other person or couple within their social sphere (e.g. "Why does he/she keep shacking up with these abusive losers?!").  The current answer that I recall falls within something Freud originally called the "Repetition Compulsion", although I think it was later practitioners who leaned in more to postulate that such a person is (subconsciously) looking to 're-enact' old scenarios in order to "get it right this time".....to get 'resolution' to something that is psychologically unresolved from many years ago.  So if awareness does not come from being with a wound mate, one may end up just going through this cycle over and over....never reaching 'resolution' on old emotional injury.  With awareness, some recognition of the cycle....the pattern....can come about and, often with additional guidance, some healing of those wounds and abatement of the pattern....of the 'compulsion'....finally can occur.  As always, healing takes a different schedule for each person and likely over many years.  

It certainly appears that the 'soul mate' phenomenon of the variety that appears to require 'no work' also *can* occur, but I just suspect that it is as culturally worshiped as it is rare.  Just MHO....



I really do think that we have both gained self awareness and awareness of how our actions effect others directly through our relationship together. I think that has been my main motivation for staying in this relationship at all let alone while it was really difficult. I mean, I have never felt like we were “soul mates” and we have never had a really easy, harmonious relationship. There has always been at least some tension. But that has always lead to growth eventually, even if it takes a while and feels terrible temporarily. But it seem like we almost force eachother to grow against the others will. It isnt like we are both gracefully and cautiously helping eachother to grow together. Its like we put eachother into situations where growth is necessary to prevent the relationship from ending and it never feels graceful or harmonious.
 
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Angel Hunt wrote:

But why is it so important to you that she be converted to your way of thinking? Are you able to tolerate a sense of differentiation from her? Or are you expecting her to mirror you to an unhealthy degree?

I am not encouraging you to divorce, but it does seem like there is a lot that you are unhappy with and do not necessarily respect about your wife. So if you already know deep down that you do not see a future with her, the kindest thing you can do is cut her loose so that she can move on and try to have children with someone else. Waiting until having children is no longer an option for her and then divorcing would be more traumatic in the long run.



She doesn’t need to “convert to my way of thinking”. I have tolerated extreme differentiation from her for our whole relationship and, despite being difficult and confusing, it has lead to growth. The reason I have tried so hard to convince her of things in the past is because she was desperate, confused, depressed, unhealthy and doing things that made all of that worse. I could see that doing nothing wouldnt help her and was worried she would continue to spiral down. She was no longer doing what was in her own, or our best interest.

And she has told me before that she feels I don’t respect her. I dismissed it the first few times by telling her she doesn’t know my thoughts or feelings. But the last time she said that, I actually really thought about it for days, and realized she is right. That didnt sit well with me. I feel each partner in a relationship should respect the other as much as they respect themselves, and I saw that I really didn’t feel that way. Made me question if there are legitimate reasons for that or if Im some sort of self centered, narcissistic asshole who doesn’t deserve a wife. So I really thought and felt into it, into why I don’t respect her as much as I think a husband should respect his wife and I came up with several reasons: some of her beliefs are irrational and she cant even justify them to herself or anyone else, she has some habitual self destructive behaviors (how can someone respect you when you dont respect yourself?), some of her priorities dont make any sense to me, she has been disrespectful to me many times and she has disrespected herself many times. This led to me seriously considering compatibility and if our goals and values are aligned. It also made me realize that maybe we dont love eachother for who we are but for what we think we could be IF we change in a certain way. So really, her telling me she feels disrespected led to me reconsidering the entire relationship because I am not ok being married to someone I respect less than myself. And she isnt ok with that either.

We can see a future together. But we both agree that for it to work out, changes need to keep happening. We need to communicate better, be more open and honest, spend more time together, and work out our issues in an appropriate way. I do still wonder about compatibility but she and her therapist think it’s a silly concept. Seems like people are pretty divided around whether or not relationship compatibility is much of a factor in “success”. It seems obvious to me that some people can have a successful marriage more easily and more enjoyably if they are compatible vs people having to constantly struggle to “make it work” if they aren’t compatible. But thats why I started this post.

This weekend we had the conversation we should have had 10 years ago about boundaries, goals and values. Still need to talk about expectations and division of labor but needed a break from serious discussion. The conversations went well though. We were respectful and when it got heated we took a break for a bit.
I would say that we share a lot of goals and values but that they are of different importance to us. While we may have the same goal, reaching that goal is more important to me where enjoying the process is more important to her. That kind of seems like healthy balance if we can work together. And where we share values, sometimes I value something way more than she does even though she values it too. We found that I apparently have way more boundaries than she does although I think that is because even having boundaries at all is relatively new to me so I’m being quite thorough about it.

One of my boundaries was that I will not stay in a relationship solely out of fear, guilt, shame, obligation or hope. Been there, done that. I think it would have been healthiest if we divorced years ago and those things are what kept me here. Now, things are finally improving so I have hope again, but not just hope, I have results (positive progress). She felt like the whole “in sickness and in health” vow means I should never leave even if the only reason I’m staying are things like fear, guilt, shame, obligation or hope. And I understand that. But it isnt worth it to me. I can deal with the guilt of breaking that vow pretty easily if it seems like we may both be better off that way. I cannot deal with years or a lifetime of unhappy marriage and justify it based off of unhealthy emotions and a piece of paper tying me down.

Your point about children is very valid too. I think if we separate she will struggle either way. But she is very determined to give birth to a child or two in her life and I know that, if this doesn’t work out between us, the longer we wait the less chance she will be able to find a new partner in time. But that isnt a reason for me to get her pregnant now or divorce her now. I think we just need to keep talking about these important things and see how things go for the next couple months. If there is consistent improvement, I will be quite optimistic. If we start back sliding soon, I will probably tell her this needs to end.
 
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