acronyms- what do they all mean, and am I an old fogey because I don't like them?

IDK.

I don't like reading posts where people use acronyms without defining them.

I know what you mean. Sometimes, I'll see one, and think "I know what that means", but for the life of me, I can't think of it. If I plan to use one, I try to use the full term first, then feel as if it is OK to use the acronym later in the post.

Many acronyms got their start in the military, and spread to civilian life. Two examples from WWII:
FUBAR: Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition.
SNAFU: Situation Normal - All Fucked Up.

I'd say its not that you're an old fogey. I'd say you dont like them because you dont know what they mean.
A few good ones I use regularly-
IMHO- in my humble opinion
IME- in my experience
IIRC- if I recall correctly
YMMV- your mileage may vary

These darn young whipersnappers are coming up with new ones all the time. Makes communication more direct. Contractions were a new linguistic convention once upon a time too, but they seem to have stuck over time.
Join the game! You'll love it once you start to play.

I like YMMV.

It seems like they could be unclear sometimes. SMH seems to be under some debate. YOLO becomes tiresome and fails too take into account that the Hindus might be right about reincarnation

Imagine how scandalized I was when I realized what MILF meant!

oooh, I thought of a couple more I like-

FWIW- for what it's worth
FTW- for the win
and of course, since you mentioned it first, GMILF.

I guess I'm not the only one:

https://permies.com/t/984/organic/

IC intentional community, integrated circuit, interstitial cystitis

There are just so many opportunities for misunderstanding.

One that gets used in these forums is OP - original poster, the person who wrote the first post in a thread.

It seems like they could be unclear sometimes. SMH seems to be under some debate. YOLO becomes tiresome and fails too take into account that the Hindus might be right about reincarnation

Imagine how scandalized I was when I realized what MILF meant!

This is a classic example: I have no clue what any of those are.

I guess it all depends on which circles we travel in. For example, I don't 'text'.

Isn't it annoying?! SMH is often "slapping my head" as if at something dumb. YOLO is "you only live once"

A MILF is a "mother I'd like to...fornicate with"

Hayes Carll - Country singer and bonafide wierdo - wrote a song about another military acronym : KMAG-YOYO
Kiss my ass guys - Your on your own !

Much of this is the result of text messaging and twitter. People have found a lot of ways to shorten language to save time and money. I think it's sort of genius but at the same time annoying to try to figure out sometimes. What's more aggravating is hearing people speak out loud in "text mode". I tell people who do that to me- if you don't have time for a full sentence, I don't think I'm the person you ought to be talking to.


YOLO... UFSSYDCP ITRTTD

HCTPP-HYPSON <---- figure that one out.

That's beyond my abilities, Craig.

"Ellowell" is a word I've heard around. I have a teenager. She doesn't say it but her friends do. It no longer means "i have laughed out loud" it's more subtle and nuanced than that.

Oh-emjee is another one they say. I guess "oh my God" doesn't have much of a meaning to begin with.

One that gets used on these forums is DE for diatomaceous earth. Clearly that is a long word and it's nice to abbreviate but it's helpful, especially for new people, to define the acronym before using it.

here's a clue

It was said for decades on tv, by one person, five days a week.

Eons ago when I first started texting, I got into that really irritating 'textspeak' thing, like 'g8'='great'.
Now I often write epic texts full of really long words; or just a
wtf='What the fuck' can be handy...
I've seen 'lol' used twice by older people thinking it meant 'lots of love'.
Not a problem in my case, but imagine someone signing off with 'lol' in reply to a text about a pet dying or something!

Whenever I've thought of using lazy shorthand, I remind myself of this. It might be slightly faster for me to write in that fashion, but the person to whom I'm writing, now has to waste time in deciphering the mess, and it often gets ignored when it is not understood.

This would be bad enough if it were just me texting something to my kid in a one on one exchange. The average message posted here is read hundreds of times. So, a poster saves 10 seconds by using an obscure acronym - over time 1000 people puzzle over it for 15 seconds each. In this example we have just wasted a little over 4 hours of our reader's time. More than that was wasted if you posted something fairly long, but in the end the reader isn't sure of what the entire comment meant, due to the missing information.

Writing in this way tends to ignore the need to have consideration for several demographic groups. It effectively tells many potential readers that this message is meant for a select few. Others are unwelcome.

1. Many elderly readers are completely unacquainted with text speak.

2. Many visitors to the site read English but are more familiar with another language. Slang and text speak are likely to exclude them from the conversation.

3. Some people are marginally literate. Giving them something else to figure out, makes reading an even more daunting task.

4. Some people tend to read using whole word recognition, rather than the phonetic approach. Acronyms force them to switch to another way of receiving the information.

5. A good number of visitors with varying degrees of literacy, come here to learn about permaculture, and not to play word games with children who think they're being clever. Many will simply skip by messages that are designed to make them work at a guessing game that they never agreed to play.

Good points Dale

I've often wondered about languages and how they evolve over time. I think the reason a lot of this started was because it saved people real money, when it used to cost a quarter to send each text. People adopted these time and money saving alternatives to full words and some folks have tried to adapt it to real verbal speech with little to show for it. But as time passes we'll see that some of these acronyms will stick in our vocabulary for a while.
Because of the internet, people are being somewhat forced to learn a common language. While there are translation services today, eventually people will have a native tongue and a world tongue. Time and technology will all but ensure this.
Some of the difficulties people have in learning language or written text, will shape how the new common language will look and sound. On the other hand, some folks will be left behind... but that's going on every day. These are some of the things Dale addressed. There are challenges and some people can't keep up. I'll admit that I have a difficult time reading manuals and technological sounding stuff because it doesn't read the way a real person would talk. I read slowly to myself with a little voice in my head. (all good voices I assure you) That seems to work OK but it takes a lot longer for me to get through a book than most folks. Acronyms throw a wrench in my gears and often find myself going back two pages to find out what the heck I'm reading about again. Or if the topic isn't really my cup of tea, I just put the book down and walk away. Reading should be fun ... not work! (sorry Shakespeare).


BTW: Help Control The Pet Population. Have Your Pet Spayed Or Neutered.

I've always found Shakespeare difficult to follow. You go off to find out what a term means and have to review the story. There have been "updated versions" that mess with the time and place when all that was needed was a translation. Now, MacBeth works at a gas station in Chicago and speaks American slang . The writers of these new versions are telling their audience,"We think you are too stupid to appreciate or understand a story passed down from a different time, so we've tweaked it to fit your narrow reality". Imagine if they did that with religious text, when all that was needed was clarification.
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I just had a look at one of the "similar topics" at the bottom of the page --- BSFL and sawdust. A few postings down, someone says this.

Steven Feil asked for clarification --- Probably more newbies than me are scratching their heads about the acronyms above. PLEASE define your acronyms before using them, just like when using pronouns. Makes it easier to follow the discussion.


And this was the reply --- Steven - I want to say this most respectfully and I hope you can hear me. You are right, we 'could' think to define, more common terms to us, that maybe lesser known to others. But, most of us are putting more effort into addressing a thread than wondering what the readership may or may not know. I know, when I was beginning and still do I would look up terms/things that I didn't understand and/or wanted to know more about. Taking initiative will better help your understanding and your needs rather than someone else trying to imagine what you or another needs. If you had clicked on the link provided above, it would have more than answered your question...

And Steven again --- I am going to try to say this most respectfully as well: If a person does not even know where to begin, how can that be helpful or encouraging to the new person. This site has soooooo many jumping off points that have cross information that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to even think about where to START an investigation. Is the acronym related to sawdust or some other indiscreet thing?

And actually, in a fraction of the space it took for you to respectfully tell me I am on my own, you could have done a decent job of explaining what I needed to know.
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The reader was blamed for a problem that clearly began the moment the acronym was chosen as a title. Right away, most Earthlings were excluded from the conversation. If you write something down and an intelligent, literate person has no idea what you are saying, your communication skills are at fault. https://permies.com/t/24370/composting/BSFL-sawdust This topic should probably be moved to "Tinkering With This Site" since it has to do with how user friendly the forum is or should be. Excluding the majority of readers due to poor title choice or excessive text speak within that thread, makes us all look silly for participating in such silliness.

BSFL was one of the acronyms that got my goat. I know about black soldier fly larvae! I just didn't know the acronym.

Back in college I was one course shy of a minor in linguistics. I find language and language change really fascinating. If I were in college following my frivolous interests instead of on a farm following my instincts I'd be doing research on things like acronyms and hashtags and slang and regional accents.

On a forum like this, I agree with Dale, undefined acronyms are a hindrance to communication, not just an annoyance.

I have a few years left before I get my masters in Old Fogey.

Yeah, acronyms are weird, and can be alienating.  
I ran across a couple in the last few months that I had to look up:

iykyk = if you know, you know
tl:dr, or tldr = too long, didn't read (I think)

Like someone else said I don't like seeing them unless someone explains what they stand for. Then it is okay to use the acronym in the post. At least for me.

For the longest time, I could not figure out ISO so I asked: In Search Of!

I recently asked this one:

What does "XD" mean?

I think its mostly subconscious, but acronyms and other esoteric terminology serves to define an “in” group and an “out” group for the speaker. If we “get it”, we pat ourself on the back for being “hip” (I feel like a square 60’s infomercial writing it that way). If we don’t get the speaker’s slang or acronyms, “its probably because that little shit is talking out his ass”. Most of us dislike hearing people talking in ways we cannot understand, because it makes us uneasy (are they conspiring against me!?!) and feel dumb. This is obviously often used as a power play, but in most cases is likely just a culture gap.

It seems to me to make sense to define an acronym the first time we use it in a thread, but then utilize their brevity thereafter.

Adam Klaus wrote:oooh, I thought of a couple more I like-

FWIW- for what it's worth
FTW- for the win
and of course, since you mentioned it first, GMILF.  

There's always ASAP and FYI.
Sometimes I use FFR: for future reference
GOAT is Greatest of All Time (I think that's kind of cute... "GOAT" - hehe)
ROTF - Rolling on the Floor
LMAO - Laughing My Ass Off
And, of course, ROTFLMAO.
Can you make them profane? I glad you asked. Dropping an "F" into anything does the trick:
ROTF LMFAO

I'll stop before I get to TEOTWAWKI, or worse. I think these fall within the General Consensus. Please correct me if needed.

Cheers,

I don't like acronyms.

Not every situation can be simplified into either a bullshite acronym or slang again simplified into an acronym.

Most people's descriptive language is getting smaller and smaller from what I am experiencing. My friend and I joke on how many overly used words that are constantly used, many times wrongly to describe something as in iconic, game changer and my favorite "narrative".

Anne Miller wrote:Like someone else said I don't like seeing them unless someone explains what they stand for. Then it is okay to use the acronym in the post. At least for me.

For the longest time, I could not figure out ISO so I asked: In Search Of!

I recently asked this one:

What does "XD" mean?

This one isn't a an acronym, it's the keyboard version of a "grin"  or "laughing" emoji- which subject opens its own can of worms...

Daniel Schneider wrote: This one isn't a an acronym, it's the keyboard version of a "grin"  or "laughing" emoji- which subject opens its own can of worms...

I know that now that I asked the question.

When I asked the question I thought it was a acronym.

The point I was trying to make is:

acronyms- what do they all mean, and am I an old fogey because I don't like them?

Matu said, "I don't like reading posts where people use acronyms without defining them.

Matu Collins wrote:IDK.

I don't like reading posts where people use acronyms without defining them.

One of the best courses I have ever taken is Technical Writing. It helped me communicate with all my writing audiences for maximum understanding. I am supportive of any efforts that prioritizes the use of plain language anywhere written communication is the focus. Forums and other shared networks of communications are effective ways to reach specific audiences of interest and while you writers don't need to be so formal as following a style guide they should still follow guidelines for good clear writing. website PlainLanguage.Gov says it well in their introduction to the essentials of clear writing to communicate,

"Choose your words carefully.  Words matter. They are the most basic building blocks of written and spoken communication. Don’t complicate things by using jargon, technical terms, [acronyms] or abbreviations that people won’t understand. Choose your words carefully and be consistent in your writing style."

Please spell it out and be clear.

Best Regards
Mike Love

Yes, I am 100% in favor of civility and inclusivity.  I’d be quite happy if we didn’t use slang or profanity here at all. It would be easier for me to read, and my first language is American English.  I can’t imagine trying to decipher acronyms, slang and profanity in a second language.

When I was raising children, they tended to pick up profanity just because of how often they overheard it in common usage.  

I taught them that profanity is for people with a limited vocabulary and no imagination.

As for the acronyms, well, I learn them one by one, but agree that the best practice is to use the whole term, with acronym before using the acronym on its own.  Black soldier fly larvae (BSFL)…… and then BSFL.

I imagine permies forums as a resource we are creating.  I prefer it to be content based.  In my opinion, most of the profanity as adjective, adverb, qualifier or other is more about the poster’s feelings than about the topic.  And though we don’t pay the bill for storage of all this content, someone does, so why not stick to business, and drop a lot of the rest.

i will chime in too, with my opinion.

undefined anacronyms are unwarranted, thoughtless and impolite. if you are that short of time then go do what you should be doing and come back to it when you have the few extra seconds/minute it takes to write out the words.

it has come to my attention that i have been thoughtless and impolite in some of my communication in this forum. i apologize to those i have offended.

eg btw, which means by the way and other anacronyms have become very well known and commonplace to a large portion of english speaking and writing people. but maybe not so much to non-english speakers or whose english is not as good as others or have not done a lot of reading and writing. for this reason i think i will not use anacronyms anymore in respect for those who, like me, may not enjoy searching out their meaning. i had to go a long way down this thread to find what i came here for as i am not the fastest reader. also, it took me some time to get all the permies site anacronyms worked out.

also, consider, if i had been reading this thread with my granddaughter because we had come here for clarification of an anacronym, as i actually did from another thread. it would seem a couple of posters need to consider the diverse group of folks using this website and employ better manners. unless of course this an adults only website. this is not like speaking where you can't take it back, for there is a preview button you can use to reread all your words and consider if you really want to say what you have written. spelling or grammar or missing a word, not a big deal, but posts with references to pornography,(i had to get a better understanding of one of the anacronyms), and foul language should be deleted immediately, as there is no real need for it, in my opinon. unless, again, this is supposed to be an adult only website.

if i am out of line here let me know

cheers  james

You are not out of line at all.

One thing I appreciate about most Permies people is that they write well, and have great replies. So much of what we discuss is so complex that it takes great writing skills to convey in a short reply (or not so short reply).

I just don't use acronyms as using them most likely means you'll add another post to explain it later anyway; minds well just spell it out from the onset.

I also don't like the F-bomb, either in every day speak or in replies. I learned a long time ago that it is just a filler word. Remove it and it detracts NOTHING from the conversation. Most times; right or wrong, it makes the speaker sound like a simpleton. That may not be the case, but that is the given perception which is often too bad as it distracts from their points. The only exception to that is when really agitated and making a point, then it is well-placed and has immediate impact!

My other gripe beyond acronyms,  is replies with no pronunciation. I am unapologetic about that; good grammar is important. If you don't believe me, note the comma in these two points of contention.

No more coffee
No, more coffee

A comma makes all the difference!

Michael Love wrote: ways to reach specific audiences of interest and while you writers don't need to be so formal as following a style guide they should still follow guidelines for good clear writing. website PlainLanguage.Gov says it well in their introduction to the essentials of clear writing to communicate,

"Choose your words carefully.  Words matter. They are the most basic building blocks of written and spoken communication. Don’t complicate things by using jargon, technical terms, [acronyms] or abbreviations that people won’t understand. Choose your words carefully and be consistent in your writing style."

Please spell it out and be clear.

Thank you, Michael!

This is the best explanation I have seen.

I feel most folks won't their post to be read and replied to so this is the very best way to get that to happen.

Don’t complicate things by using jargon, technical terms, [acronyms] or abbreviations that people won’t understand.

A helpful addition might be a pinned page that defines the myriad terms and acronyms encountered on the site. Bonus points: one of the following terms does not belong. Can you spot it, and are you old enough to recall what it stands for?

WL, SEPP, BRK, PEX, FLEGM, TL, WOFATI, PTJ, FYSH, LSMFT, SKIP, TEFA, BB, VORP, PDC, SPIFFY, GAMCOD, SYMBOO, BEER, PEP, HUSP, GAT, ATC, PEA

Probably it wasn't here (I don't see it), but I know I reacted on this topic (some years ago).
I don't like it if such acronyms are used, because I never know their meaning. English is not my 'first language'. I know the traditional abbreviations, like aka, imo, f.e. I know a few more in Dutch, my first language. But even in Dutch I don't understand those newly made acronyms. Many of them I don't even want to understand!

Okay, there are some acronyms I know and understand. Those are the ones that belong here, at Permies, like: SKIP, PEP, PEA, BB, etc.

Many years ago, when I was a student nurse, one of our tutors was complaining that she had never worked in a hospital that used so many acronyms. Her advice to us was not to use initials as they could be misunderstood. Obviously, she never taught a student nurse I worked with 20 years later because when I asked him what something meant, he answered me with an acronym. I had to ask him what he meant. It was actually extremely important that I knew what it meant but he treated me as if I were an idiot because I did not understand. Nowadays I tend to ignore acronyms I don't know and therefore miss out on what people who use them mean.

I understand that acronyms can cause an overwhelming feeling of misunderstanding.

On the other hand, I really like Paul's art of inventing new words which tell an important story.

WOFATI

Zoran Jovanovic wrote:I understand that acronyms can cause an overwhelming feeling of misunderstanding.

On the other hand, I really like Paul's art of inventing new words which tell an important story.  

Thank you for suggesting this:

https://permies.com/t/10971/symbiculture

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:Okay, there are some acronyms I know and understand. Those are the ones that belong here, at Permies, like: SKIP, PEP, PEA, BB, etc.

I agree!

Dc Stewart wrote:A helpful addition might be a pinned page that defines the myriad terms and acronyms encountered on the site. Bonus points: one of the following terms does not belong. Can you spot it, and are you old enough to recall what it stands for?

WL, SEPP, BRK, PEX, FLEGM, TL, WOFATI, PTJ, FYSH, LSMFT, SKIP, TEFA, BB, VORP, PDC, SPIFFY, GAMCOD, SYMBOO, BEER, PEP, HUSP, GAT, ATC, PEA

Would you please define these acronyms so everyone will know what they mean?  I only know a few.

Would you please define these acronyms so everyone will know what they mean?

Only the creators of these terms are qualified to explain the meaning and etymology. If I presume to speak for them, I risk spreading a false interpretation.

I have to chime in here! My sister's bumper sticker and what I saw on the t-shirt of an English teacher:

Let's eat, Grandma!
Let's eat Grandma!