• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies living kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • raven ranson
  • Jocelyn Campbell
  • paul wheaton
  • Devaka Cooray
stewards:
  • Burra Maluca
  • Miles Flansburg
  • Julia Winter
garden masters:
  • Dave Burton
  • Anne Miller
  • Greg Martin
gardeners:
  • Joylynn Hardesty
  • Mark Tudor
  • Pearl Sutton

the solutions are simple  RSS feed

 
gardener
Posts: 830
Location: western pennsylvania zone 5/a
54
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

like him or not
He gets attention (and celebrities)

Tonight: David Blume and George Noory Discuss:
Energy Sovereignty/Alternative Fuels  
Monday 12/19: 10pm Pacific
Tune-In here:
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2016/12/19#.WFVcR2Hy2PE.twitter

they have a "call-in" section of the show
maybe somebody can make a lightbulb come on in the audience's heads

This is a "LIVE" program with your calls welcome:

Western US: 1-800-618-8255 (toll free)


Eastern US: 1-800-825-5033 (toll free)


First time caller: 1-818-501-4721


Wild Card line: 1-818-501-4109 (anyone can call) 



International Instructions 
Toll Free:

(Sprint Direct Access Number)
1-800-893-0903, Press Option 5

edit to add numbers
 
gardener
Posts: 2307
Location: Fraser River Headwaters, Zone3, Lat: 53N, Altitude 2750', Boreal/Temperate Rainforest-transition
284
bike books food preservation forest garden fungi hugelkultur solar trees woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

When I mention this in the past people respond with a list of dozens of ideas of things I could do to get the message out there.  And I think THAT is the problem.  I need to say that we need the list of dozens of ideas of things that can be done to get the message out there, AND **I** will not do it.  

 Fair enough, Paul.  I can appreciate that.  More than you probably can realize, since I really, REALLY appreciate you and all that you have done.  I'm also really appreciate your list:
paul wheaton wrote:

Maybe once a day, everybody reading this can spend 45 seconds expanding horizons:  Hugelkultur, sepp holzer, poo-less-ness, diatomaceous earth,  CCD solutions, cast iron, dandelions, ruth stout, mullein, greening deserts, fukuoka, natural swimming pools, willie smits, palm oil, the man who planted trees, stinging nettles, paddock shift systems, berms, ben law, grey water, polyculture, jean pain, mason bees, wildcrafting ....


As Tyler said: Excellent List!   I have conversations in person about many of these things already, but I do not spend a lot of time online that is not on permies, or generating materials for permies threads... I guess I should expand my horizons to some other sites so that I can spread the word there? Also, it seems to me that you are right that 45 seconds is not a lot of time, but that is in responding... this does not take into account all the time of being present on these sites in the first place before you find a place to engage, and make a spiel of 45 seconds on a permie related topic... just saying; there's a bit more to it than 45 seconds.  I'm still going to give it a try!  Thanks again, Paul.          
 
gardener
Posts: 2450
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
446
books food preservation hunting solar trees woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Could someone clue me in to some of the online sites that I could be evangelizing in?  Thanks to this thread I created a Reddit account and made a couple comments in the Environment subreddit.  I avoid Facebook.  But other than that, where are some of the places that we should be getting the word out?  
 
Roberto pokachinni
gardener
Posts: 2307
Location: Fraser River Headwaters, Zone3, Lat: 53N, Altitude 2750', Boreal/Temperate Rainforest-transition
284
bike books food preservation forest garden fungi hugelkultur solar trees woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Anybody (besides Paul... or Paul too, if he wants) with a list of sites I can pop over to occasionally to pollinate permie ideas in possibly fertile minds?   I just started a new thread for site ideas in this regard: Sites for Folks like me to go to for spreading Permaculture Ideas
 
Roberto pokachinni
gardener
Posts: 2307
Location: Fraser River Headwaters, Zone3, Lat: 53N, Altitude 2750', Boreal/Temperate Rainforest-transition
284
bike books food preservation forest garden fungi hugelkultur solar trees woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Funny, while I was creating that thread, Mike Jay thought of the same thing here!  Awesome.  
 
pollinator
Posts: 699
Location: Federal Way, WA - Western Washington (Zone 8 - temperate maritime)
25
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
OK, I'll get out to Reddit, strain my old brain and try to figure out how, and where, to push permaculture out to the world.   And I'll be checking Roberto's new thread to find more 'launching sites'.   Least I can do for Paul (not to mention Toby and Bill).

I'll also continue my small one-on-one effort by offering my 'three magic words' to pretty much everyone I talk to:  "Now, remember these...Potatoes, Cabbage an Chickens...PCC.. file them away for when 'it hits the fan'... now repeat them back to me so I know you heard me ;)".  

As they scratch their heads, I can explain how 'simple these solutions' are if the S*** Hits The Fan...  Then I can quickly share why I think it will be 'when', not 'if', as in "When gas is $10/gal, when we only get  electricity for 3 hours a day , when water is rationed, etc.... you'll be glad you can remember the Three Magic Words*"   I also advise they stock up on wool garments from the thrift shop, storing in a moth proof bag.   It's all I can do in 5 minutes... but I do it a lot... usually gets a smile as they humor me, but it plants a seed ! ;)

*As we here all know, according to Duhon's 'One Circle', for a complete diet, carbs/calories are hardest to produce in the needed quantities, hence spuds;  cabbage family are extraordinarily nutritious; plus chickens (eggs) can practically raise themselves, if necessary.   Spuds and cabbage grow & reproduce readily, and overwinter in temperate climate. (Saved a lot of Irish.)  The misc vitamins and minerals can be had from weeds ... I also share this rational, if a listener is interested ;)

Of course, I'm in a temperate climate... for the warmer areas... ?
 
duane hennon
gardener
Posts: 830
Location: western pennsylvania zone 5/a
54
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

in permaculture one of the premises is
applying your energy, influence, etc to where you can get the
"biggest bang for the buck"

a little energy to redirect an existing energy flow
rather than trying to create a new flow

in spreading permaculture
rather than trying to create a "new" movement (requiring a lot of time, energy, money, etc)
why not graft permaculture onto an existing movement that would benefit from the synergy?

there are a number of organizations trying to do good
and while they may not be perfect and you might not agree with everything
they have resources and manpower

an example are churches
they have "youth missions" both domestic and international
introducing permie ideas into their objectives would improve the outcomes
(and exposes new people to permaculture)

see here for an example
http://csm.org/outreach/landing_page.php?feature=youth-mission-trips&gclid=CPGmu_K_hdECFQIMaQod3xQIsA


note: not affiliated with any group or organization
 
Posts: 136
Location: Ohio
chicken hugelkultur woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

duane hennon wrote:

an example are churches
they have "youth missions" both domestic and international
introducing permie ideas into their objectives would improve the outcomes
(and exposes new people to permaculture



Agreed! Places like churches and food pantries with existing lawns can be turned into food/ garden/ education projects with permaculture ideas infused.

Using 4H community projects of this nature could work.  It's infusing permaculture principals into existing programs, in addition to doing the work on your own.  

Tactfully showing the community leaders how it can work for their personal goals could work.  Brainstorming ideas on that topic could be fruitful.
 
pollinator
Posts: 735
Location: Meppel (Drenthe, the Netherlands)
110
bike dog forest garden hugelkultur cooking urban
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

duane hennon wrote:
in permaculture one of the premises is applying your energy, influence, etc to where you can get the "biggest bang for the buck"

a little energy to redirect an existing energy flow rather than trying to create a new flow

in spreading permaculture rather than trying to create a "new" movement (requiring a lot of time, energy, money, etc) why not graft permaculture onto an existing movement that would benefit from the synergy?

there are a number of organizations trying to do good and while they may not be perfect and you might not agree with everything they have resources and manpower

an example are churches they have "youth missions" both domestic and international introducing permie ideas into their objectives would improve the outcomes (and exposes new people to permaculture)
...


No, I think this is not going to help 'spreading permaculture'. This will lead to wrong conclusions on permaculture. If  they hear the word 'permaculture' always from young members of a certain church ... they will think: "that is only for those church people, it is not for me" or "that is only for young people, it is not for me".
In my opinion the most important about permaculture is: it is for everybody, for all kind of people, all over the planet Earth, whatever their cultural background is, in whatever region they live, no matter what age they are, if they are single or have a large family, ...

Yes, of course the young church people will benefit from applying permaculture ... every person will!
 
pollinator
Posts: 292
Location: Quebec, Canada
28
forest garden hugelkultur trees urban
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Is there a convenient way to share forum posts onto Facebook?  Facebook is one of the most powerful tools for sharing ideas.
 
master steward
Posts: 25602
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
bee chicken hugelkultur trees wofati woodworking
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Michelle Bisson wrote:Is there a convenient way to share forum posts onto Facebook?  Facebook is one of the most powerful tools for sharing ideas.



grab the url of a thread and stick into any space where you can type.   I do this for comments and I do it for posting stuff to my wall and other fb thing-a-ma-bobs.
 
Michelle Bisson
pollinator
Posts: 292
Location: Quebec, Canada
28
forest garden hugelkultur trees urban
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Is there plans to have a share button to make it even more convenient to share forum threads and posts to social media platforms?
 
duane hennon
gardener
Posts: 830
Location: western pennsylvania zone 5/a
54
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:

duane hennon wrote:
in permaculture one of the premises is applying your energy, influence, etc to where you can get the "biggest bang for the buck"

a little energy to redirect an existing energy flow rather than trying to create a new flow

in spreading permaculture rather than trying to create a "new" movement (requiring a lot of time, energy, money, etc) why not graft permaculture onto an existing movement that would benefit from the synergy?

there are a number of organizations trying to do good and while they may not be perfect and you might not agree with everything they have resources and manpower

an example are churches they have "youth missions" both domestic and international introducing permie ideas into their objectives would improve the outcomes (and exposes new people to permaculture)
...


No, I think this is not going to help 'spreading permaculture'. This will lead to wrong conclusions on permaculture. If  they hear the word 'permaculture' always from young members of a certain church ... they will think: "that is only for those church people, it is not for me" or "that is only for young people, it is not for me".
In my opinion the most important about permaculture is: it is for everybody, for all kind of people, all over the planet Earth, whatever their cultural background is, in whatever region they live, no matter what age they are, if they are single or have a large family, ...


Yes, of course the young church people will benefit from applying permaculture ... every person will!



don't just stop with religious groups
find your local atheist group that has a program to help the needy
go to retirement homes (where the people are bored to death)
and get them involved

if you want permaculture to go mainstream,
you have to stop acting like a know-it-all cult
or religion that has the sole way to salvation
and be willing to work with others in the mainstream

 
Steve Taylor
Posts: 136
Location: Ohio
chicken hugelkultur woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

duane hennon wrote:

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:

duane hennon wrote:"biggest bang for the buck"
a little energy to redirect an existing energy flow rather than trying to create a new flow

there are a number of organizations trying to do good and while they may not be perfect and you might not agree with everything they have resources and manpower

an example are churches they have "youth missions" both domestic and international introducing permie ideas into their objectives would improve the outcomes (and exposes new people to permaculture)
...



In my opinion the most important about permaculture is: it is for everybody, for all kind of people, all over the planet Earth, whatever their cultural background is, in whatever region they live, no matter what age



don't just stop with religious groups
find your local group that has a program to help the needy go to retirement homes (where the people are bored to death)and get them involved

if you want permaculture to go mainstream,
you have be willing to work with others in the mainstream



I agree with these edited quotes.

Veteran halls with lawns would be another great place for projects.

What if we helped one person get some plants established and show them what they need to know? With the stipulation of doing the same for someone of their choice. Create Pay-It-Forward campaign that could be initiated by any permie in any location.

 The domestic threats that can result from the failure to implement permaculture techniques in the mainstream is real. That could be a selling point for Veteran's who have served their country and continue to do so.  
 
pollinator
Posts: 10268
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
346
cat chicken fiber arts fish forest garden greening the desert trees wood heat
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I hope people will start threads about how they are implementing these ideas.  I hope this isn't just a thread in which people tell other people what to do.  

 
Steve Taylor
Posts: 136
Location: Ohio
chicken hugelkultur woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:
No, I think this is not going to help 'spreading permaculture'. This will lead to wrong conclusions on permaculture. If  they hear the word 'permaculture' always from young members of a certain church ... they will think: "that is only for those church people, it is not for me" or "that is only for young people, it is not for me".



Hi Inge,

I worry about the same thing, but I think if our goal is to gain momentum then we need to get the most people we can building our soil and learning basics.  

Getting hung up on what qualifies as Permaculture is detrimental to gaining momentum towards our goal.   Any useful skill I teach someone (probagation) can just be learned for what it is.  On the way out the door you could direct them to www.permies.com to learn more on their own.
 
paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 25602
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
bee chicken hugelkultur trees wofati woodworking
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Michelle Bisson wrote:Is there plans to have a share button to make it even more convenient to share forum threads and posts to social media platforms?



We used to have them on every page.  They were used about 4 times per month - so they didn't really earn their real estate and we took them out.
 
Inge Leonora-den Ouden
pollinator
Posts: 735
Location: Meppel (Drenthe, the Netherlands)
110
bike dog forest garden hugelkultur cooking urban
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Duane, Steve, thank you for your reactions.
Here in my neighbourhood a community garden was started, this project has the name 'Permacultuur Meppel', but from the start we have good contacts with the social centre and other neighbourhood groups.
It is one of our 'basic principles' to colaborate as much as possible with everyone living in this neighbourhood. We see this is sometimes difficult, some people don't seem to like 'new things'. Using the name 'Permacultuur' (the Dutch way of writing permaculture), according to me, is important. It is a good start of conversations: 'what is permaculture?'
 
pollinator
Posts: 301
Location: Poland, zone 5
54
books forest garden fungi greening the desert hugelkultur urban
  • Likes 9
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
For the last three years I have been trying to promote permaculture locally through social media, my website, my blog, my forums, and by giving (a few) lectures and workshops. I have also written some articles that have been published in magazines and online. I have translated one well known permaculture book into Polish as well.
My observation is that majority of people sit in their comfort zone so deep that I'm unable to kick them out of it and to send them on permaculture path. They are Ferds. Thousands of Ferds. Over three years I have met less than a dozen of Gerts (accomplished or in the middle of transition process). But plenty of Ferds that are dreaming about becoming Gerts. They discuss permaculture on Facebook, read articles, attend workshops and lectures, but when it is over they go back to their "Ferdiness", sighing deeply. So far I haven't found any way to convince them to act. They do have a knowledge, but it remains not used. I was hoping some will start to collect rainwater, some will start composting, some will build wood stoves ... The only success so far was with a few gardeners that started to mulch  and applied a few other permaculture techniques to their gardens.
We have a huge FB group for people who have moved from cities to farms and homesteads. I would say, ideal place to promote permaculture ideas, don't you think? Well, not really. These people who "love nature", "hate corporations", still spray, spray, spray Roundup. The group is a place where they post their problems and ask for solutions. For about two years I was giving them permaculture solutions, but only in a few cases it was considered worth trying. Why? Because there were 100 people suggesting other stuff, a "conventional" solution that "everybody" uses.
But I'm not giving up, over four thousand people have read my blog post about beer can solar heater, so maybe one day someone else will actually build one .... I know it is nothing compared to the efforts of Paul, permies.com members and permaculture community worldwide, but I deeply believe that the way to go is to lead by example, starting from ourselves, ten extending on our families and friends, neighbors and passerby's, local communities. When people see fruits of our work, they will more likely try to replicate that.
That's also why we should always take "before" and "after" shots of everything we do, starting from lawn transformations, ending with electrical bills before and after rocket stove install. We need to be able to backup our advices of permaculture solutions with hard data showing benefits, measured in units that are significant to Ferds, like in dollars saved/made perhaps? Maybe that will give them enough motivation to actually act.
 
paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 25602
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
bee chicken hugelkultur trees wofati woodworking
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Richard, that is what I see too.

For every person that seems authentic and is really doing stuff to move forward and figure it out (gerts or gertables), there are 20 people that seem hell-bent on impeding them in the name of pemaculture.  And each person impedes a different way.  I feel like if I try to categorize all the ways people try to impede, God will prove what a comedian he can be by bringing somebody in that doesn't fit any of those categories. After all, who would have thought that a subreddit would be created for the sole purpose of stopping my efforts - even to the point of organizing poor reviews on my stuff at amazon.  All in the name of decency and "good" permaculture.

I think the thing to do is to embrace that there is an ocean of negative nellies and then go forth and talk about all these things.  And when the negative nellies come do their negative thing, then the best thing to do is to ignore the nellies and flood the group with good information.  

But the core of this thread, is the whole "45 seconds a day":   if somebody asks "how do I save money on my power bill", then mention the smart use of incdandescent lights "this one guy cut 87% off of his heat bill using an incandescent light bulb."    if somebody asks about LED lights then "LED is the best solution for hot climates, but in cold climates, incandescent provides efficient heat AND light."  If somebody is talking about gardening, mention hugelkultur.  If they are talking about wood heat, mention rocket mass heaters.   etc. etc. etc. etc.     45 seconds a day from a thousand people will change the world in a couple of months.


 
paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 25602
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
bee chicken hugelkultur trees wofati woodworking
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Here's your chance.  A brand new video about carbon footprint.    


 
duane hennon
gardener
Posts: 830
Location: western pennsylvania zone 5/a
54
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Max Keiser talks about helping the homeless with tiny houses that include solar, composting toilets, rainwater collection,  etc
also local economies and helping the poor
are these any less beneficial because "permaculture" isn't mentioned?

first 12 minutes


on another show he talked about biofuels and local economies
https://permies.com/t/60725/Piemont-Biofuels

he might be interested in talking to someone
who knows the "grand design of localness"
for a pathway out of what Max sees as
looming troubles due to global turmoil

maybe a bigger picture approach to someone who appears open to ideas
is better than beating your head against the ferds
 
paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 25602
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
bee chicken hugelkultur trees wofati woodworking
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Here is a short link directly to what i just posted:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN5wNFlwiag&lc=z13cs3swmmzqsnb4504cdbkygluxydyokjg
 
Richard Gorny
pollinator
Posts: 301
Location: Poland, zone 5
54
books forest garden fungi greening the desert hugelkultur urban
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

paul wheaton wrote:Here's your chance.  A brand new video about carbon footprint.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN5wNFlwiag



My comment there.
 
Inge Leonora-den Ouden
pollinator
Posts: 735
Location: Meppel (Drenthe, the Netherlands)
110
bike dog forest garden hugelkultur cooking urban
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

duane hennon wrote:
Max Keiser talks about helping the homeless with tiny houses that include solar, composting toilets, rainwater collection,  etc
also local economies and helping the poor are these any less beneficial because "permaculture" isn't mentioned? ...


That is beneficial for those people ('the poor'), sure. But are they interested in the 'why' (why solar, why rainwater collection, why tiny?)? Are those people going to 'care for the Earth' and 'care for the (other) people'? Will they benefit more, in the future, because their way of living will be providing abundance?
All of these things, that's what permaculture is about.
 
duane hennon
gardener
Posts: 830
Location: western pennsylvania zone 5/a
54
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:

duane hennon wrote:
Max Keiser talks about helping the homeless with tiny houses that include solar, composting toilets, rainwater collection,  etc
also local economies and helping the poor are these any less beneficial because "permaculture" isn't mentioned? ...


That is beneficial for those people ('the poor'), sure. But are they interested in the 'why' (why solar, why rainwater collection, why tiny?)? Are those people going to 'care for the Earth' and 'care for the (other) people'? Will they benefit more, in the future, because their way of living will be providing abundance?
All of these things, that's what permaculture is about.



IMHO, poor people without the basics aren't interested in "permaculture"
they are interested in surviving (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs)
what good does it do to talk about carbon footprints, eating organic, lowering your thermostat, using certain light bulbs, recycling greywater, etc
with someone living under a bridge in a cardboard box?
once these people are stabilized, they will be more receptive and willing to spread the word
 
Inge Leonora-den Ouden
pollinator
Posts: 735
Location: Meppel (Drenthe, the Netherlands)
110
bike dog forest garden hugelkultur cooking urban
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

duane hennon wrote: ... IMHO, poor people without the basics aren't interested in "permaculture"
they are interested in surviving (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs)
what good does it do to talk about carbon footprints, eating organic, lowering your thermostat, using certain light bulbs, recycling greywater, etc
with someone living under a bridge in a cardboard box?
once these people are stabilized, they will be more receptive and willing to spread the word


Yes, if you're living in a cardboard box under a bridge, first you need to have a decent (tiny) house, and food.
But then it's time to think 'why is it that some people are poor, have no home, while others have so much?' And 'is it possible to change that?'
If your project to help the poor people has a name mentioning 'permaculture', maybe they'll be curious to know what that word means. And if you explain them how they can grow some of their own food, I think they'll listen.
 
Tyler Ludens
pollinator
Posts: 10268
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
346
cat chicken fiber arts fish forest garden greening the desert trees wood heat
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
To me, most people in this thread don't seem to be talking about permaculture, which is a system of design, they seem to be talking about components which can be placed within the design.  Permaculture helps us decide where best to place these components for the best result, but the components  (lightbulbs, etc) are not themselves permaculture.

The ethics "Care of the Earth, Care of People, Return the Surplus" help us decide which components to select for inclusion in our designed systems and I think when we consider the components, as permaculturists, we keep the ethics in mind.  If a component, or technique, furthers the ethics of permaculture, then it deserves inclusion.  These decisions are extremely local.

 
Inge Leonora-den Ouden
pollinator
Posts: 735
Location: Meppel (Drenthe, the Netherlands)
110
bike dog forest garden hugelkultur cooking urban
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Tyler (Ludi), in my opinion permaculture is a design system for everything in life. Everything that's helping planet Earth and those living on it - to me- is part of permaculture. And indeed, the items included in that design can differ very much in one place or the other.
Only one thing is always important: growing food
 
Tyler Ludens
pollinator
Posts: 10268
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
346
cat chicken fiber arts fish forest garden greening the desert trees wood heat
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:Tyler (Ludi), in my opinion permaculture is a design system for everything in life.



Totally agree!

Re: lightbulbs.  Right now I'm sitting near a lamp with a fluorescent bulb - this bulb has been in use nearly every day since the mid-1980s.  I'd feel pretty stupid and wasteful to throw this lightbulb away and replace it with a compact fluorescent which I'd then need to throw away to replace with an LED.  I might have only one light on in the house and this will the the one light bulb I'm using.  It is slightly warm which is a benefit in the Winter.  I think I'm making the ethical choice to keep this one remarkably durable light bulb.
 
pollinator
Posts: 541
Location: Pac Northwest
63
chicken forest garden homestead solar trees wofati
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

paul wheaton wrote:Here is a short link directly to what i just posted:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN5wNFlwiag&lc=z13cs3swmmzqsnb4504cdbkygluxydyokjg



Folks can still go and add to the conversation there. Add to Paul's comment thread, help back up what info he offered, find other comment threads, and insert some wisdom into them. Especially ones that have a lot of replies, since there will be a lot of people who see a comment added into there. And of course don't forget to up vote Paul's comments, as well as any other comments you see discussing permaculture or permiculture ideas.
 
Posts: 8
2
bike chicken food preservation
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Most people on reddit are very young and haven't made bigger picture connections. Many of them may not have homes/property where they could do things like rocket mass heaters or growing a big garden. Many voices tend to get drowned out on reddit, really don't fret over it. Personally the two biggest things I want to do more of are food and heat. But I find all this very overwhelming and I think I'm like most people I don't like being overwhelmed for too long so I give up frequently. It may seem simple to you but most of us are ignorant because these aren't the kind of things we learned in school or from our parents or anything like that, so it's a whole new world to us. I didn't even know what composting was up until a few years ago. I had to google how do I make a compost pile? I didn't know anything! Now I have a lot of compost and it seems so simple but in the beginning it seemed really complicated and I was so amazed that all those banana peels and apple cores turned to dirt and there were so many worms that seemed to come out of nowhere. I'm still amazed by compost! Just try to see it from our perspective, we're like blank slates on this stuff and it's a ton of information to try to take in in addition to all the other information that's coming in all the time. It might help to prioritize things from easiest to hardest, and to describe the steps as condensed as possible, to make it easier for people. The easier you ("you" being general you, whoever) make it, the more likely people will try it.
 
Tyler Ludens
pollinator
Posts: 10268
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
346
cat chicken fiber arts fish forest garden greening the desert trees wood heat
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Ian Martin wrote: Many of them may not have homes/property where they could do things like rocket mass heaters or growing a big garden.



https://permies.com/t/55092/apartment-dweller-world-place
 
Tyler Ludens
pollinator
Posts: 10268
Location: Central Texas USA Latitude 30 Zone 8
346
cat chicken fiber arts fish forest garden greening the desert trees wood heat
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Ian Martin wrote: It might help to prioritize things from easiest to hardest, and to describe the steps as condensed as possible, to make it easier for people. The easier you ("you" being general you, whoever) make it, the more likely people will try it.



https://permies.com/t/55751/Permaculture-design-basics#521461
 
Posts: 90
Location: Zimbabwe
31
greening the desert
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Paul....! I can't find the shocked emoticon. Why would you even be bothered by not having done much or having made an impact, it's simply unbelievable. I am glad I stumbled into this conversation and thank you everyone for talking to Paul. It would be nice to hear from you and find out how you are feeling now.

There are somethings that seem to just have been there, because they are too good and kind of feel natural like they are not man made or maybe the last thing that crosses your mind is a person made them. I was going through the posts and it got me to wonder what "Paul Wheaton" had actually done in comparison to maybe his expected results.... YOU CREATED PERMIES.COM.....!!! you have big dreams that's for sure. I will tell you one thing of the "few" million people you are aware of having reached trough media, they are worthy more than the billion viewers any celebrity has ever had an effect on.

What do I mean? your viewers are most probably living the principles that you are sharing with them and your platforms are supporting system for continuity and they are building a legacy that will live on probably for ever. On the other hand half the celebrities' viewers are doing it out of their own personal momentary excitement which might not necessarily mean they understand concepts or messages being conveyed.  Don't get me wrong I know how habits can spread faster through media, which is alright if the opportunity comes. But to say you haven't spread the word enough, to start seeing a significant change is definitely being too hard and unfair on yourself.

Look at me I am in Zimbabwe I had no clue whatsoever about permaculture. A friend introduced me and referred me to this site. It is starting to feel like some kind of family where even without being involved in conversations, just reading them, you know  there are people like you out there.

Also not knowing how, you feel now, you created a true family here. Did you see how many posts and how long the posts were just to try and make you see your work differently. Sometimes the most expensive therapy does not come close to this. It would be nice to witness our dreams come true, but I think it is more enriching to live your life fully. If it's software stuff that makes you tick, giving talks or whatever, do it but do it because you feel satisfied doing it and probably because you find purpose doing it. Sometimes getting proof externally of how good our work is, be it its people praising you, number of viewers liking or viewing your artilcles or even being criticized, will never be enough. The only person who can truly make you feel you have done it is yourself. So from where I stand I would ask what can "Paul start doing to convince Paul Wheaton he is doing an amazing job?"

For what it is worth I actually think permaculture might be the answer to the end of poverty in Africa for reals. I might not live to see the image I visualize but you know what, I am glad I am part of the change and guess what permies.com is too. So you might not get my community liking your posts or being a part of this forum, its not because they don't want too, but it is sometimes because they have never used a computer before or as information is passed down, the source tends to disappear, but it does not make it less relevant. I didn't know about the person behind permies.com and I  am sorry about it.

Just don't be like most of the celebrities. They live to entertain others and yet they themselves live miserable lives off the stage e.g. (Whitney Houston, Robert Williams, Michael Jackson). Hope you have time with permaculture for yourself and not for the whole world it seems you truly value it.

My simple solution is " it is your life, no one will live it for you or you living someone's life for them, enjoy every moment of it" and good luck in finding a famous celebrity to spread the word. If its what you want to pursue don't give up on it, just don't let it blind you from seeing what you have already achieved.
 
 
Steve Taylor
Posts: 136
Location: Ohio
chicken hugelkultur woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Rufaro Makamure wrote:P. YOU CREATED PERMIES.COM.....!!! you have big dreams that's for sure. I will tell you one thing of the "few" million people you are aware of having reached trough media, they are worthy more

What do I mean? your viewers are most probably living the principles that you are sharing with them and your platforms are supporting system for continuity and they are building a legacy that will live on probably for ever. On the other hand half the celebrities' viewers are doing it out of their own personal momentary excitement which might not necessarily mean they understand concepts or messages being conveyed.  Don't get me wrong I know how habits can spread faster through media, which is alright if the opportunity comes. But to say you haven't spread the word enough, to start seeing a significant change is definitely being too hard and unfair on yourself.

Look at me I am in Zimbabwe I had no clue whatsoever about permaculture. A friend introduced me and referred me to this site. It is starting to feel like some kind of family where even without being involved in conversations, just reading them, you know  there are people like you out there.

Also not knowing how, you feel now, you created a true family here. Did you see how many posts and how long the posts were just to try and make you see your work differently. Sometimes the most expensive therapy does not come close to this. It would be nice to witness our dreams come true, but I think it is more enriching to live your life fully. So from where I stand I would ask what can "Paul start doing to convince Paul Wheaton he is doing an amazing job?"

For what it is worth I actually think permaculture might be the answer to the end of poverty in Africa for reals.

My simple solution is " it is your life, no one will live it for you or you living someone's life for them, enjoy every moment of it" and good luck in finding a famous celebrity to spread the word. If its what you want to pursue don't give up on it, just don't let it blind you from seeing what you have already achieved.
 



Neil Degrass Tyson also comes to mind.

Well said Rufaro! It's encouraging to hear, especially it gaining momentum without the internet 😀
 
Rufaro Makamure
Posts: 90
Location: Zimbabwe
31
greening the desert
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

duane hennon wrote:

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:

duane hennon wrote:
Max Keiser talks about helping the homeless with tiny houses that include solar, composting toilets, rainwater collection,  etc
also local economies and helping the poor are these any less beneficial because "permaculture" isn't mentioned? ...


That is beneficial for those people ('the poor'), sure. But are they interested in the 'why' (why solar, why rainwater collection, why tiny?)? Are those people going to 'care for the Earth' and 'care for the (other) people'? Will they benefit more, in the future, because their way of living will be providing abundance?
All of these things, that's what permaculture is about.



IMHO, poor people without the basics aren't interested in "permaculture"
they are interested in surviving (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs)
what good does it do to talk about carbon footprints, eating organic, lowering your thermostat, using certain light bulbs, recycling greywater, etc
with someone living under a bridge in a cardboard box?
once these people are stabilized, they will be more receptive and willing to spread the word



It is true. I have come to realize that the best way to send a message, is to actually walk the talk and show an alternative way to getting basics outside the conventional way. Once the poor have enough time to think about other things than surviving, then they can be willing to start searching for a deeper understanding of what it is they are actually doing.
 
Rufaro Makamure
Posts: 90
Location: Zimbabwe
31
greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks for the pie.
 
pollinator
Posts: 301
17
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Simple solutions

As I read this thread I see that Paul is saying that he wants to take a rest from the fray and he wants others to shoulder the responsibility he has been carrying.  Many people do not hear this message.  They are encouraging Paul not to give up.  

I feel that I am shouldering some of this responsibility.

If you would please watch this video from Toby Hemingway you will understand the paradigm shift that Toby has long been describing.  



this is a keystone video.  the solution that he recommends is horticulture or I will call it ecosystem gardening to not confuse it with the science of the current horticulture. . there are 3 ways that I know of to quickly grow an ecosystem 1) with a lot of mulch, no bare soil, no tilling and cover crops, 2) holistic management including ruminant rotational grazing or 3) microbe inoculations. see on facebook microbe teas, a quick way to regenerate soil as well as a story of microbes how they can accomplish seeming miracles on Permies site.

I was feeling a lot like Paul is feeling.  Not because I have made anywhere near the contribution that Paul has, and not because I have spent anywhere near the time and effort that he has.  More because I am a woman and like most women, I need to see that my contribution is not only needed but being received.  I am wired to need feedback to know that I am on the right course.  In Toby’s video he describes that a major problem with agriculture (or industrial agriculture as I will call it) is that it takes 100 or more years to see how the soil has been decimated.  Actually to deplete the soil so much that farming is no longer possible.   In tropical countries it only takes 20 years to decimate the soil.  So this need of mine and other women for feedback can be a very good thing.  If in a mothering roll, the child does not respond, we know to change what we are doing.

I am spending this winter on the East Coast because Adam Sachs from Bio4Climate had seen my crowdfunder on facebook and  wanted me to speak at the Bio4Climate conference where he is bringing practioners together with scientists who want to find solutions for our planet.  I might not have come except that Didi Pershouse who wrote

The Ecology of Care: Medicine, Agriculture, Money, and the Quiet Power of Human and Microbial Communities.

invited me to attend a workshop with a famous microbiologist Walter Jehne where we would brainstorm on solutions with a lot of movers and shakers.  Feeling myself surrounded by 30 other people who are as committed as I am to simple solutions is giving me the foundation to continue my work.   I have seen that using microbes in ecosystem gardening covers at least 10,000 acres in the New England area and if we enlarge that to include holistic management, then we are probably up to 200,000 acres minimum  in the U.S..  Around the world there are at least 5000 holistic management type sites some of them with 50,000 acres.  Holistic grazing has been reversing desertification and alleviating drought wherever it is practiced correctly with concomitant humus and ecosystem regeneration.  Whoopee there is hope for our future, especially if these small and large scale solutions can continue to grow.  It is starting to sound like we will reach the turning point soon.

Because of my presentation at the Bio4Climate conference I have made connections with many women running organizations in this area including SustainableBrattleboro, BioConcordcan, Sustainable Arlington, etc.  They are adding to their current projects a movement to convert their lawns to natives and perennials.  the BioConcordCan group calls their project YIMBY.  Yes in My Back Yard.  They want to create humus as quickly as possible as they have been hard hit by drought and uderstand that the carbon in the humus can hold up to 250,000 gallons of water per acre and thus the beginning of the solution for drought and desertification.   I am working with a team here to write a manual for how to do this, hoping that this will take off around the country.  With 41.5 million acres of lawns this can make a significant difference.

These technics have the benefit of reversing desertification, and alleviating drought because they allow the water to go into the soil, (as opposed to running off it) filling the deep aquifers and drastically slowing the water returning to the sea that is causing increased rises in the ocean levels.  With the addition of trees there is bacteria from the trees which seeds the clouds causing rain in that area, which can mean that the water does not return to the ocean for 10 years.

I believe that everyone of us (people) including every bacteria, every plant, every animal have something to contribute to what Paul calls simple solutions.  We all need to let the creativity that Toby says is the heart of an  ecosystem gardening practice (love and abundance vs. fear and scarcity)  to fill us with the contributions that we can make.  Our creative contribution leads to our own health as well as that of the planet.
 
Too many men are afraid of being fools - Henry Ford. Foolish tiny ad:
Food Forest Card Game - Game Forum
https://permies.com/t/61704/Food-Forest-Card-Game-Game
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!