Situation with neglected neighbor dogs

I'm really at a loss here and hoping someone has a solution or at least some helpful perspective. Our neighbors are not responsible to or for their animals. Their two dogs, who are very active by nature, are kept penned up in a small kennel 24/7. They don't walk them or let them out. They bark endlessly at passers by on the public foot path next to the house. I don't mind the noise, more the reminder that these poor dogs are being neglected and unable to exercise and play like they need to. Naturally, the dogs escape every chance they get, which is increasingly often, multiple times a week. We have caught and returned their dogs more times than I can count, often at times and in situations that were very inconvenient for us. Other neighbors have done the same. One of the dog's has been injured from her hijinks. Their people seem not to care or make any real effort to give the dogs what they need to stop escaping. Frankly, I feel like I'm betraying the dogs by taking them back when I catch them in my yard, but don't know what else to do.

I am becoming concerned too because these dogs have a serious drive to chase things and I fear they will start harassing our chickens. The birds are in a cattle panel high tunnel, covered with hardware cloth. So it's unlikely the dogs could actually get to them, but I fear they're wound up enough to try and either way, it would certainly stress the chickens. We would like to eventually have a fenced area the chickens could go into while we are outside with them, but with these dogs (and their cats, too) loose, I fear we will never be able to do that safely.

I really don't know what to do. Talking to these people seems useless and possibly dangerous. We tried that with their cats that constantly wander over here and immensely stress out our cat and kill wild birds. I worry about them hurting the chickens too. They started yelling at us and said that if I asked them to control their animals anymore or called animal control, they would retaliate in some fashion. I really don't know how to deal with that kind of behavior. But I know I don't like just letting them cross all my boundaries either.

These are sweet dogs and they deserve so much better. I realize that if animal control becomes involved, there is a strong likelihood of the dogs being killed, since our shelters here are beyond full. I absolutely do not want that. It isn't the dogs' fault and they shouldn't be punished.

We don't have the ability to build a fence around the whole property right now, as we have many projects we need to be working on. Even if we could, I don't know that it would help,  as these dogs are pro fence jumpers and diggers. It would have to be six feet or more to even stand a chance, and that height is not permitted on the side facing the road, which is right across from the dogs' house. Not much point making a fence if they can jump the most accessible portion.

We have to find a way to keep our chickens safe and be able to give them the extra space they deserve. Some way to help these dogs have a better life too would be ideal. If anyone has suggestions about how to handle this, I would be most appreciative.

Yikes, Heather. That sounds like a pretty tough spot to be in. If there are other neighbors also struggling with their irresponsibility, maybe a peaceful gathering with those other neighbors, to assess the situation could help. There would, of course need to be great care, to not let it turn into a 'mob', but to stay focused on conflict resolution. If you could, as a group, find a way to approach these folks, it would be far more difficult for them to exact "retaliation", and might help solve the issue.

I would talk to the people again, and just tell them that the next time the dogs are in your yard you will call the Sheriff's Department. I wouldn't call Animal control right off, and the Sheriff is the elected county arbiter of conflict. Just mentioning the Sheriff may make them pay attention, but if it doesn't a report on file helps the next time.

A few years ago the neighbor across the road from me shot their own dog, I heard it making a horrible noise. But to be honest I thought that they had shot something that was after their pets. But a couple days later I was at the end of our road and found their dog limping around with a bullet in her hip, the dog wouldn't let me catch her so I just went over to the neighbors and confronted him. I was very aggressive, I am not a small man and I build houses for a living (strong enough). The guy started babbling about his wife shooting the dog because it wouldn't quit getting the the trash or something. I told him that is one thing to kill an animal but an entirely different thing to wound a dog and leave it to wander around in pain.

Long story short, they went and picked up the dog and had a vet patch her up. I guess they kept it, they moved shortly after that, and we never heard anything else from them. In hindsight, maybe I should have called the Sheriff.

I tend to deal with situations head on. It may be a fault.

This probably isn’t the answer for most people, but with most loose dogs that get onto my farm, I simply capture them and either take them to the shelter or give them away to a new home someplace else.  I won’t rehome a neighbors dog that just happened to get loose, but if the dog is constantly loose because the owner won’t keep it confined, then it’s fair game. Then I play dumb just in case it was a neighbor’s.

An answer that won’t work for you but it did for me…..I got a donkey who hated loose dogs. She has killed several over the years. . They are always hunting dogs going after my sheep. The donkey runs them down and kills them. Sounds brutal, but pre-donkey I had dozens of sheep maimed and killed by hunting dogs.  Plus two horses killed by those dogs too.

Over the years I have caught a few stray dogs that were apparently abandoned on my dead-end road. I re-homed them. If I were you, I’d quietly rehome them.

Rehoming is 100% the way to go. No particular reason that anyone needs to know who did it.

Around here, enough people will shoot a loose dog that there are never loose dogs. When a perpetually chained and neglected dog escaped, it got lucky and went right to the shelter..

It is the owners responsibility to contain their dogs, or lose them. They have blown off many warnings, so..

If shelters are overfull, are there other states with a dog deficit? I see dogs for adoption near me that have come from all over, but I don't know the mechanisms..


Cats are different.. I would have laughed at someone if they had asked me to fence in my cat, and taken horrible disproportionate vengeance if they hurt or catnapped him... Containing a cat outdoors in a way that allows them to do their job (rodent control) is impossible, imo. Anything a cat can hurt, a mink or coon can kill quicker.. so protection is required anyhow..

My neighbours cat was a bully, but he didn't come into the core area to hassle my cat after I repeatedly chased him with a cordless skillsaw... I made sure my neighbours knew that I was scaring him off but wouldn't harm him, but my neighbours are not like yours..

Good luck!

Maybe the two neighbours dogs are more guard dogs, since they are barkers and nearby is the pedestrian path.
If that is the case then it might mean the owners are fearful of people or strangers, or are doing activities that they are not meant to be doing etc and the dogs keep them vigilant.

If the dogs want out, then see if they can be adopted, e.g you dont return them next time they get out.

Or/and you might want to get to know you neighbours, the people who lock their dogs up.
They may be naive about now to care for dogs, and may benefit from some tips.
They may have a mental illness or other challenges that distract them from following through on daily functionality with walking or caring, so it may not be their intention to be harmful, or neglectful.

Another vote for rehoming. The shelters here can't keep up with the demand for dogs, so you might just have to look a little farther afield if your area's shelters are all full.

Joyce Harris wrote:
Or/and you might want to get to know you neighbours, the people who lock their dogs up.
They may be naive about now to care for dogs, and may benefit from some tips.
They may have a mental illness or other challenges that distract them from following through on daily functionality with walking or caring, so it may not be their intention to be harmful, or neglectful.

This is a very generous way to see it, and probably says nice things about you, Joyce. But... I really don't think it is advisable for someone to get to know people that have threatened them in any way. Not worth the risk in my opinion.

Whether mentally ill, criminals, or just clueless jerks, they have communicated that they are people to distrust and avoid, and I tend to believe people who communicate that to me.

Whether cat, dog or rhinoceros, it is, in my opinion (and in many places the actual LAW) that you "control" your animals, period.

It is also ones responsibility, in my opinion, to safely contain and protect your resident pets and stock from wildlife and nature.

The question is how to do this both ethically and in a manner that is effective and affordable.

Naturally: what occurs where one resides that is a prolific grower, easy to acquire, and is dense and/or prickly? Here I found "salting" the fence line with the invasive but very prevalent Himalayan blackberry (that is an ongoing removal project on our property) - the vine clippings will root and grow to 6+ feet in less than a year with minimal support.

Alternatively, slat wood (on wire) or willow/alder branch type barrier fencing.

Electric (solar powered?) fencing and netting.

Fencing with wire, mesh or discarded metal roofing panels.

One avenue worth pursuing is determining if the residents are the legal owners or tenants. A decent landlord will NOT be happy if renters are ruining their name by being a problem to the area.

In cases such as yours Heather, I would 100% engage in catch and rehome - cats AND dogs! In my experience, people like that will NEVER change - regardless of what legal interventions (Sheriff/animal Control) are attempted. It will only lead to elevating animosity that could make remaining on your property unpleasant, to down right dangerous.

Sometimes this is a case of folks not knowing what else to do.   They have dogs that are dangerous to neighboring livestock;  that may be the reason they keep them penned up.   They may believe they'll be euthanized if they surrender them (and maybe they will,  if they have a known bite history for example).    They may believe (misguidedly perhaps) that they ARE doing the responsible thing by keeping them and keeping them contained.  

If they had a good option, maybe they would let them go.  Speaking as a trainer, it's really hard to find homes for dogs like these, most folks aren't looking for a time consuming and expensive training project.  And maybe they don't want them separated which is an even harder situation to find.  

Animal welfare laws are pretty slim..  if they have food, water, shelter, and a min. sqft there may be nothing authorities can do except about the times they get loose.

Tough situation, and so hard as a neighbor to it as well.  

Would anyone in the neighborhood be willing to volunteer to walk them and do a little training;   or maybe has a fenced area appropriate for giving them a good run once a day?  Open the door to getting more communication with them?  

Hello,

Previously it has been mentioned, about animal welfare and its implication,
Important information Heather!

Previously it has been mentioned that this issue is in conjunction with Chickens who are struggling to go to sleep at night! compound the issue!

Previously ideas have involved legal and people action!

Has anyone looked at engineering options?

IMHO, the Humane Society and SPCA are just useless.   Animal Control only really cares if you live in a ritzy neighborhood or if the dogs bite someone.  Your mileage may vary, but this has been my experience.  I've seen our local SPCA go 4 counties away to rescue 25 horses when I couldn't get them to pick up just one that was being starved to death just up the road.  When you can count ribs and see hip bones....

Sherriff/Police might help but my experience is that if you haven't been bitten or had animals killed, they don't care.  

Now the question for you is how do you make your neighbor's animals back into their problem.

It's going to require some creativity but it can be done.  As for the cats, throw some catnip seed in their yard on the side away from your property.  Preferably under their bedroom window.  That should pretty much do it for the free range cats.

An old baby monitor to broadcast the barking back into the neighbor's house?  

See what kind of pants they wear and train the dogs to pee on those?  

Encourage the critters to come visit so you can rehome them quietly?  

Su Ba wrote:
An answer that won’t work for you but it did for me…..I got a donkey who hated loose dogs. She has killed several over the years. . They are always hunting dogs going after my sheep. The donkey runs them down and kills them. Sounds brutal, but pre-donkey I had dozens of sheep maimed and killed by hunting dogs.  Plus two horses killed by those dogs too.

I love this "solution". Had a chance to see an army of 3 pet donkeys in action, they don't mess around (in my case though, I only witnessed chasing, not any killing of dogs). But, unless you already have existing livestock operation, then you have extra responsibility to care for the donkeys, extra expenses on veterinary care, farrier, and possibly feed, and may be extra fencing expenses.

I posted my thoughts to "Keeping the dogs off your property thread". I happened to have lived in a lot of rural places, and also spent long time traveling full time staying in rural places in short term rentals, where I observed all kinds of "neighbor/dog situations". I came to the conclusion that in some places you just get trashy neighbors, who will either abuse animals or will let them loose on your property, or both. They will not spray/neuter their animals too and make the offspring suffer or will kill them. This trash can be dangerous to deal with, especially if a person asserting their rights is living alone and the drugs are often involved. These people are beyond comprehension of anything that's reasonable and often have prison waiting for them. I decided I want to avoid rural ghetto situations alltogether and to stick with covenants and restrictions type of rural acreage communities, hopefully with POA/HOA board too. These often allow small scale agriculture for personal use.
These usually limit number of dogs per property, prohibit dogs at large, excessively barking dogs, etc. It can be stressful and risky to deal with trashy druggie or entitled jerk type of neighbors and I would rather have POA/HOA deal with that, or at least have covenants behind me if I take them to court, which is a guaranteed win once I get proof of camera.

[quote=Alex Moffitt]Has anyone looked at engineering options?[/quote]

What is an engineering option?

My guess would probably be all wrong.

Heather Sharpe wrote:I'm really at a loss here and hoping someone has a solution or at least some helpful perspective. Our neighbors are not responsible to or for their animals. Their two dogs, who are very active by nature, are kept penned up in a small kennel 24/7. They don't walk them or let them out. They bark endlessly at passers by on the public foot path next to the house. I don't mind the noise, more the reminder that these poor dogs are being neglected and unable to exercise and play like they need to. Naturally, the dogs escape every chance they get, which is increasingly often, multiple times a week. We have caught and returned their dogs more times than I can count, often at times and in situations that were very inconvenient for us. Other neighbors have done the same. One of the dog's has been injured from her hijinks. Their people seem not to care or make any real effort to give the dogs what they need to stop escaping. Frankly, I feel like I'm betraying the dogs by taking them back when I catch them in my yard, but don't know what else to do.

I am becoming concerned too because these dogs have a serious drive to chase things and I fear they will start harassing our chickens. The birds are in a cattle panel high tunnel, covered with hardware cloth. So it's unlikely the dogs could actually get to them, but I fear they're wound up enough to try and either way, it would certainly stress the chickens. We would like to eventually have a fenced area the chickens could go into while we are outside with them, but with these dogs (and their cats, too) loose, I fear we will never be able to do that safely.


I really don't know what to do. Talking to these people seems useless and possibly dangerous. We tried that with their cats that constantly wander over here and immensely stress out our cat and kill wild birds. I worry about them hurting the chickens too. They started yelling at us and said that if I asked them to control their animals anymore or called animal control, they would retaliate in some fashion. I really don't know how to deal with that kind of behavior. But I know I don't like just letting them cross all my boundaries either.

...

We don't have the ability to build a fence around the whole property right now, as we have many projects we need to be working on. Even if we could, I don't know that it would help,  as these dogs are pro fence jumpers and diggers. It would have to be six feet or more to even stand a chance, and that height is not permitted on the side facing the road, which is right across from the dogs' house. Not much point making a fence if they can jump the most accessible portion.

We have to find a way to keep our chickens safe and be able to give them the extra space they deserve. Some way to help these dogs have a better life too would be ideal. If anyone has suggestions about how to handle this, I would be most appreciative.

Can build mobile chicken coop on wheels to move chickens around to fresh patches.

Yes, talking to those people seems dangerous, sounds like druggies....
I would have moved, honestly, because these neighbors sound like they can pose a lot more problems than just dogs down the road....and I'd closely watch the community where moving to.
Like I said above, I think HOA/POA or just restricted land communities are a good option, where there're actual regulations to protect the resident and sometimes there's board that can fine the offenders.
You can have chickens and small livestock in those places but people must have their pets confined and prevent them from excess barking. There're usually less trashy people who move to those places, I think, and a lot are second home owners, etc, so there're less potential for neighbor problems (unless you're the offending neighbor yourself who disrespects others' right to peaceful enjoyment, then you get a problem).

Oh and I assume you already called the sheriff due to threats. You said they threatened you with retaliation if you had called animal control. That's some serious stuff. It will be your words against theirs if something happens down the road. I'd go to the sheriff's office and make a report. They need to know what's  going on. I had to involve sheriff in the past and haven't heard from the offenders ever since. Unless you're in a kind of place where you're the outsider and everyone else is related (to the sheriff too, lol)

Lynn Cheshski wrote:Oh and I assume you already called the sheriff due to threats. You said they threatened you with retaliation if you had called animal control. That's some serious stuff. It will be your words against theirs if something happens down the road. I'd go to the sheriff's office and make a report. They need to know what's  going on. I had to involve sheriff in the past and haven't heard from the offenders ever since. Unless you're in a kind of place where you're the outsider and everyone else is related (to the sheriff too, lol)

Yes, I did talk to our town marshal with the specific intent of getting the threatening behavior on record. He seemed unconcerned, I don't know if he filed a report or anything. Maybe I need to talk to the city police instead? It seems like now they've begun trespassing on my land themselves. Or at least letting their drunk friends do so, as I found several red solo cups on the ground 15 feet from my front door this morning. Given that these people have threatened to hurt me if I ever ask them to respect my space or try to hold them accountable for anything, I really don't know what to do. It seems like the police either don't take it seriously or want to put the burden on me to stay up all night so I can catch these unstable people hanging out in my yard in the wee hours of the night. Frankly, I'm also afraid if the police were to talk to them, that would be dangerous for me. I really just don't know what to do.
I feel like a fence of some kind, or at least gates and no trespassing signs are needed. Though I don't know if they'd really stop people like this or change the situation much.

Heather Sharpe wrote:

Lynn Cheshski wrote:Oh and I assume you already called the sheriff due to threats. You said they threatened you with retaliation if you had called animal control. That's some serious stuff. It will be your words against theirs if something happens down the road. I'd go to the sheriff's office and make a report. They need to know what's  going on. I had to involve sheriff in the past and haven't heard from the offenders ever since. Unless you're in a kind of place where you're the outsider and everyone else is related (to the sheriff too, lol)

Yes, I did talk to our town marshal with the specific intent of getting the threatening behavior on record. He seemed unconcerned, I don't know if he filed a report or anything. Maybe I need to talk to the city police instead? It seems like now they've begun trespassing on my land themselves. Or at least letting their drunk friends do so, as I found several red solo cups on the ground 15 feet from my front door this morning. Given that these people have threatened to hurt me if I ever ask them to respect my space or try to hold them accountable for anything, I really don't know what to do. It seems like the police either don't take it seriously or want to put the burden on me to stay up all night so I can catch these unstable people hanging out in my yard in the wee hours of the night. Frankly, I'm also afraid if the police were to talk to them, that would be dangerous for me. I really just don't know what to do.
I feel like a fence of some kind, or at least gates and no trespassing signs are needed. Though I don't know if they'd really stop people like this or change the situation much.

No trespassing signs, and game trail/security cameras.  Best if the cameras transmit the images/videos rather than storing them on the device.  That way if they destroy the camera you have the data still.  Then prosecute (after any degree of warning you feel appropriate) any violators.  If anyone destroys your property (including but not limited to the cameras, your chickens, and your home/cars) file charges of malicious mischief, animal cruelty, etc as appropriate and without any warnings.  ​Note that some of those are felonies, and can have serious lifetime repercussions to the charged, so that should be an effective Clue-by-4 upside their head.  If you aren't a gun owner, consider becoming one.  Learn how to use it, and what does (and, probably more importantly, does not) constitute legal self-defense.  

Document ALL interactions with them.  Especially threats.  Voice and or video recording is ideal, but a written note  on the event is better than nothing.  

That or move.  It would be nice if the idiots next door would move, but you can't force them to do so.

Andrew Mayflower wrote:

Heather Sharpe wrote:

Lynn Cheshski wrote:Oh and I assume you already called the sheriff due to threats. You said they threatened you with retaliation if you had called animal control. That's some serious stuff. It will be your words against theirs if something happens down the road. I'd go to the sheriff's office and make a report. They need to know what's  going on. I had to involve sheriff in the past and haven't heard from the offenders ever since. Unless you're in a kind of place where you're the outsider and everyone else is related (to the sheriff too, lol)

Yes, I did talk to our town marshal with the specific intent of getting the threatening behavior on record. He seemed unconcerned, I don't know if he filed a report or anything. Maybe I need to talk to the city police instead? It seems like now they've begun trespassing on my land themselves. Or at least letting their drunk friends do so, as I found several red solo cups on the ground 15 feet from my front door this morning. Given that these people have threatened to hurt me if I ever ask them to respect my space or try to hold them accountable for anything, I really don't know what to do. It seems like the police either don't take it seriously or want to put the burden on me to stay up all night so I can catch these unstable people hanging out in my yard in the wee hours of the night. Frankly, I'm also afraid if the police were to talk to them, that would be dangerous for me. I really just don't know what to do.
I feel like a fence of some kind, or at least gates and no trespassing signs are needed. Though I don't know if they'd really stop people like this or change the situation much.

No trespassing signs, and game trail/security cameras.  Best if the cameras transmit the images/videos rather than storing them on the device.  That way if they destroy the camera you have the data still.  Then prosecute (after any degree of warning you feel appropriate) any violators.  If anyone destroys your property (including but not limited to the cameras, your chickens, and your home/cars) file charges of malicious mischief, animal cruelty, etc as appropriate and without any warnings.  ​Note that some of those are felonies, and can have serious lifetime repercussions to the charged, so that should be an effective Clue-by-4 upside their head.  If you aren't a gun owner, consider becoming one.  Learn how to use it, and what does (and, probably more importantly, does not) constitute legal self-defense.  

Document ALL interactions with them.  Especially threats.  Voice and or video recording is ideal, but a written note  on the event is better than nothing.  

That or move.  It would be nice if the idiots next door would move, but you can't force them to do so.

Exactly all of this.

Cameras, like Now!

No personal experience, but something along the lines of simplisafe might suit you, if their products perform as claimed.. Standard gamecams have been pretty unreliable in my experience for a wide variety of reasons.


Yep, if you are going to own a gun, you need to be familiar with it and competent, get some training in firearms handling and defensive shooting if you have the slightest doubt about this.

And yes, definitely wise to brush up on local laws about self defense while you're at it.

Good luck!

Lynn Cheshski wrote:

D Nikolls wrote:
Cats are different.. I would have laughed at someone if they had asked me to fence in my cat, and taken horrible disproportionate vengeance if they hurt or catnapped him... Containing a cat outdoors in a way that allows them to do their job (rodent control) is impossible, imo. Anything a cat can hurt, a mink or coon can kill quicker.. so protection is required anyhow..

My neighbours cat was a bully, but he didn't come into the core area to hassle my cat after I repeatedly chased him with a cordless skillsaw... I made sure my neighbours knew that I was scaring him off but wouldn't harm him, but my neighbours are not like yours..!

Unfortunately some won't ask you to contain your cat...there're people who killed thousands of cats each, on their properties. I had run into them. Cat is indoor animal at this point and should be kept indoors. If not the neighbors, wildlife or loose dogs will get the cat eventually (or it will get run over). Sick of hearing all these rural home owners telling me how all their cats disappeared over the years. They sound so clueless and innocent when they tell you that, but they know where those cats went, were killed, and they are the one complicit in their killings as they failed to provide care and confine their cats. Cats belong indoors.

While I agree with you in spirit, i think you need to look more closely at the context.  For many in rural areas, outdoor cats are the primary way to control the vermin populations in their immediate vicinity.  Also, due to there being lower cat density than in the suburbs, there are fewer issues with them wiping out songbird species.  And finally, the humane society around us (in a rural location) offers "barn cats" which are cats that are for all intents and purposes feral, and can't reasonably be adopted into homes.  They vaccinate and desex them, then "adopt" the cats out to people in the boonies needing rodent control instead of euthanizing them.  

In the suburbs, i agree that all cats should be indoor cats.

D Nikolls wrote:Cameras, like Now!

No personal experience, but something along the lines of simplisafe might suit you, if their products perform as claimed.. Standard gamecams have been pretty unreliable in my experience for a wide variety of reasons.

Thank you for the suggestion of simplisafe! Seems like a good option that could really add some peace of mind. We had gotten a trail cam for this purpose as well as for much more fun wildlife observation. But for some reason, the darn thing's batteries get messed up if it gets rained on. Kind of strange for something designed to be left outdoors.

That said, I have to clarify with our town marshal, but after speaking with a cop we saw out on patrol, they didn't seem certain that video of someone trespassing would be enough to arrest someone for criminal trespass. I've read the state law, which didn't make that clear either. It sounded like you have to catch and physically confront them for anything to be done.

One thing I don't think I've seen in this thread (but maybe I missed it) is the potential damage to livestock from toxoplasmosis.  I don't (didn't) keep or want barn cats on my property with my sheep at all.   Abortions are a serious problem with young ewes exposed while pregnant.   So it's not 'just' a suburb problem if cats roam.  

That said, I have to clarify with our town marshal, but after speaking with a cop we saw out on patrol, they didn't seem certain that video of someone trespassing would be enough to arrest someone for criminal trespass. I've read the state law, which didn't make that clear either. It sounded like you have to catch and physically confront them for anything to be done.

Heather, I would suggest looking at your state's laws regarding the use of "No trespassing signs".

As far as I know, every said has laws against trespassing.  The signs are required to be placed so many feet apart and most states recognize the use of purple paint.

I feel with those signs and pictures will probably stand up in court.

I also wanted to second the Simpysafe recommendation.  Our daughter has that system and highly recommends it.

D Nikolls wrote:
Cats are different.. I would have laughed at someone if they had asked me to fence in my cat, and taken horrible disproportionate vengeance if they hurt or catnapped him... Containing a cat outdoors in a way that allows them to do their job (rodent control) is impossible, imo. Anything a cat can hurt, a mink or coon can kill quicker.. so protection is required anyhow..

My dogs are incredible cat killers. I'd not have told you, just have buried it. I have an entire graveyard of cats my dogs have killed.

We had some dogs on the property and they did kill, they killed A LOT of my peacocks. Next time they were on the property I told my husband to shoot them dead. The neighbor caught him walking out with the gun and we've never seen the dogs since.


Frankly, though, your statements about not being able to build a fence ring false to me. It sounds like you cannot afford to not build a fence. You have far too many creatures running about risking what you are doing. What you do is build a short fence and run an electric fence line at the top of it. That stopped my great pyrenees cold.