Forum:

earthworks

how to get more dirt in the ditch

denise ra

pollinator

Posts: 575

Location: OK High Plains Prairie, 23" rain avg

I like...

posted 3 years ago

2
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

This spring I used a ride on ditcher to cut a 3 ft deep trench to put a water line in. I use the blade on the ditcher to put the dirt back in the ditch. I didn't get enough of the dirt back into the ditch and now Prairie Grass has grown up through the dirt that should be in the ditch. I've done what I can with a shovel but I still lack a foot of soil in the ditch and maybe more in some places. I'm worried about freezing soon. I don't want to re-rent the ditcher as it's too heavy for my truck to pull. What else can I do to free the soil from the prairie grass and get it back in the ditch? I thought about a rototiller but the only one I found so far is $400. And the lady said I might not be able to control it very well - it was pretty heavy. The whole project was 7/10 of a mile maybe half of that needs filling, ithat I know of.

IMG_20211128_143557047-2.jpg

Permies is awesome!!!

Jay Angler

master steward

Posts: 13805

Location: Pacific Wet Coast

8138

I like...

posted 3 years ago

3
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

If there were trees around, I'd suggest you try to get wood-chips and drop them in the hole - they'd insulate well enough and the microbes would turn them into soil eventually.

Crazy thought - do those round hay bales "unroll"? Get a bunch of those and unroll them over the top of the ditch as insulation?

The tool I'd use is the finger side of my hand mattock. It's better at getting dirt loose from around roots and plants than a shovel that has to cut through them, but the distance you're describing seems long enough to still make that a daunting task.

Hopefully someone will have better ideas than me - good luck!

Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
How permies.com works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads

oddball - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

textiles - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Haasl

dimensional lumber woodworking - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by jordan barton

Food Prep and Preservation - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Leigh Tate

greywater and willow feeders - air badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Leigh Tate

Rob Dooley

Posts: 33

Location: Pacific NW - Oregon

I like...

posted 3 years ago

4
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

if freezing is imminent, I would try the roll bale unrolling over it that was suggested.
experts here would be able to verify if any heat benefit from it decomposing? we all know pipes freezing is not enjoyable.
I know those bales are heavy - two people minimum to start, I would think.
if one has the time, I would try to find an angled blade machine, and work it from the side letting the edge of the blade drop it in the hole. several passes are almost always needed.
I have ten acres, but I can't get anything of any size around most of it - I can and have run excavators, but I can still get on a "just a little bigger than a mower" old tractor with a stop and move the blade manually, drop the pin in deal - with a little added weigh to the blade, I don't care if people point and laugh!
I was able to knock down the center of my 1000' driveway that hasn't been re-graveled in 12 years with it.
without renting/hauling anything. I found it on craigslist "non-running" for 150 bucks, took 5 more to get it running.
I don't know how tough the prairie grass is, but the standing straw we have here in the southern Willamette Valley gives up after a couple passes.
I feel your pain on not getting back to it before it became more work - I have lived that a lot here. I would offer to help if not so many miles away!
good luck, I hope you get it covered before freezing!

Jay Angler

master steward

Posts: 13805

Location: Pacific Wet Coast

8138

I like...

posted 3 years ago

4
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I don't mean this the wrong way, but do you actually *have* to have water in that line this winter? If you have alternative sources of water, or the same source, but at a location that can be shut off from that pipe, that gives you the alternative of draining that pipe. It may give you more time to work out a way of covering it better.

If we're expecting cold that can burst pipes (not often here but it happens) we blow out pipes that aren't essential (and some that really are, but we can transport water with less bother than fix the pipe) with compressed air. We don't have to get every bit of water out - just enough that the expanding water has a place to go without breaking things.

Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
How permies.com works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads

Anne Miller

steward

Posts: 17545

Location: USDA Zone 8a

4483

I like...

posted 3 years ago

2
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

If I were in this position, the quickest and easiest thing I can think of is to go into town and find some bags of leaves to fill up that trench.

That is a long trench so to me it is going to take a lot of mass.

What can be had quickly to fill that trench with a lot of mass?

Invasive plants are Earth's way of insisting we notice her medicines. Stephen Herrod Buhner
Everyone learns what works by learning what doesn't work. Stephen Herrod Buhner

Mike Haasl

steward

Posts: 15851

Location: Northern WI (zone 4)

5021

I like...

posted 3 years ago

6
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Do you have a neighbor with a back blade on a tractor? I'd imagine turning the blade at a steep angle and driving along the side of the trench might plow/shear off the lumps of dirt and deposit them in the trench.

Or a tractor with a front bucket that could approach from the side and push the extra dirt in? Or skid steer? It would take lots of reverse, skootch over, push forward and repeat to do 7/10 of a mile... Faster than an excavator though.

Or could you get big trailer loads of fill dirt that you can drive alongside the trench and shovel off the trailer into the trench?

SKIP books, get 'em while they're hot!!! Skills to Inherit Property
See me in a movie building a massive wood staircase:Low Tech Lab Movie

PEP - PEP1 badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Ash Jackson

round wood woodworking - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by paul wheaton

animal care - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Nicole Alderman

woodland care - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Nicole Alderman

tool care - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Dave Burton

natural medicine - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Barkley

dimensional lumber woodworking - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Barkley

natural building - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Barkley

electricity - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Mike Barkley

metalworking - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Ash Jackson

denise ra

pollinator

Posts: 575

Location: OK High Plains Prairie, 23" rain avg

I like...

posted 3 years ago

3
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I sure appreciate the variety of suggestions so far in this post; I can always count on you permies to think of things I haven't.
So far, asking the neighbors what they have is probably the simplest idea. But I have very few neighbors and actually only know one of them. So I hate to go out and ask them for something right off the bat. Even if I would pay them.
I was thinking about making something I could drag behind my truck that would loosen up enough dirt that I could then shovel it in the ditch. What if I took a 2 by and screwed large sturdy bolts into it sticking out two and a half inches, then dragged it with some sort of weight on top of it? Maybe a barrel filled with water since I don't really have rocks. Though I do have some concrete that's broken up near that area. I just have to get the concrete to stay on top of the board. How would I do that?

Permies is awesome!!!

Pearl Sutton

steward & bricolagier

Posts: 15508

Location: SW Missouri

11261

I like...

posted 3 years ago

9
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Denise: If dragging something looks like your best option, make it something bigger than a 2x4, like a pallet, and put your concrete on it. When you fasten it to the truck, make it at an angle, not square to the truck, so it pushes the dirt toward the trench. Put more of the weight toward the back, not the front, so it is less likely to nose into the dirt and get stuck.

I've pallet smoothed a lot of dirt roads. :D

Gardens in my mind never need water
Castles in the air never have a wet basement
Well made buildings are fractal -- equally intelligent design at every level of detail.
Bright sparks remind others that they too can dance
What I am looking for is looking for me too!

oddball - sand badge (verified skill)
Skill verified by Nicole Alderman

Matt Todd

pollinator

Posts: 560

Location: Northwest Missouri

220

I like...

posted 3 years ago

5
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Maybe your rental place has a tiller with hiller attachment. A tiller isn't much to haul, and you'd just run it alongside the trench and the hiller would direct all the dirt you kick up right into the trench.

I don't own the plants, they own me.

Mike Haasl

steward

Posts: 15851

Location: Northern WI (zone 4)

5021

I like...

posted 3 years ago

4
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

If you tied to the corner of the pallet so that the slats were angled so they'd shuffle the dirt into the trench, you might be all set. Just weigh it down with barrels, blocks, rocks or sacks of something and give er a try. The shorter the rope to the truck, the less likely it is to angle away from the trench on you.

SKIP books, get 'em while they're hot!!! Skills to Inherit Property
See me in a movie building a massive wood staircase:Low Tech Lab Movie

Amy Gardener

gardener

Posts: 788

Location: 5,000' 35.24N zone 7b Albuquerque, NM

551

I like...

posted 3 years ago

4
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

All these ideas are terrific and here is one more. There is a tool that some call a swing blade weed cutter. This double bladed tool can emphasize the follow through using the left hand then the right hand. It is really fun to use, like a bladed pendulum with your arms as extension. In your photo and post, you show that some prairie grass has grown on either side of your trench. I would take the swing blade and use it to heap your prairie grass into the trench. Walking the 3,696 feet with the swing blade tool, zig zagging your step over the trench (for fore stroke fill and back stroke fill) to cut the prairie grass would take about 5 seconds per stroke and cover about 2 feet on both sides per 1-2 rhythm (10 seconds / 18 inches). This will fill your trench with prairie grass as an insulating layer in about 385 minutes (nearly 7 hours). You will probably need to rake some of the grass and nearby debris into the trench (another hour or two). This might seem like a long time but if you and a friend plus a raker worked this line together you could cut that in half. I actually learned to use this tool when I learned to golf, chopping native grasses to train my swing. Practice and steady rhythm like a clock improves speed and efficiency.
This guy has pretty good beginner form:

Good luck Denise!

sow…reap…compost…repeat

denise ra

pollinator

Posts: 575

Location: OK High Plains Prairie, 23" rain avg

I like...

posted 3 years ago

6
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Pearl, you rock, thanks for sharing your experience and know-how. 💛👍🏻

Amy, I think I have a rusty old swing blade leaning in the corner of my storage shed. Wonder what it would take to file it - I guess I'll check youtube.

I'm wondering if grass really has much insulation value? And, it's embarrassing to admit that I have a scythe but because I wasn't thinking about grass didn't think about using it here. But also, the blade seems not sharp enough to cut my thick prairie grasses. I actually have two blades, one a bush blade and one a grass blade, and I guess they need to be peened which I don't feel up to at the moment.

Permies is awesome!!!

Lorinne Anderson

pollinator

Posts: 1019

Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

369

I like...

posted 3 years ago

2
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Perchance is there any building projects nearby? There may be the opportunity for a few loads of CLEAN fill...

I love the hay/straw idea - even leaves of hay would likely jam in there nicely - sounds like a job for a local teenager who needs Xmas money!

Lorinne Anderson: Specializing in sick, injured, orphaned and problem wildlife for over 20 years.

John C Daley

pollinator

Posts: 5690

Location: Bendigo , Australia

515

I like...

posted 3 years ago

Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

A bobcat / skid steer unit would do that easily.
Usually they have a minimum of say 3 hire hours, so think about other work that could be down.

John Daley Bendigo, Australia The Enemy of progress is the hope of a perfect plan
Benefits of rainfall collection https://permies.com/t/88043/benefits-rainfall-collection
GOOD DEBT/ BAD DEBT https://permies.com/t/179218/mortgages-good-debt-bad-debt

Marco Benito

Posts: 61

posted 3 years ago

1
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Welcome to the world of back breaking work Denise. All this type of work is never easy. Hire the bib cat John mentioned and get 'er done, or don't worry about it so much. Any ditch not maintained will eventually fill; wind, rain, snow, etc.... If you are worried and feel you cannot afford to hire the bobcat, then grab your spade and get after it. You can also hire some help. Most of the Mexican help I use work for $15 to $20 an hour. You get a couple of these guys after it with a couple of shovels and some warm lunch you can get 'er done.

John C Daley

pollinator

Posts: 5690

Location: Bendigo , Australia

515

I like...

posted 3 years ago

2
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Marco, is it ethical to employ the Mexicans at those wage levels?
The reason I ask is not to destroy you, but I work in owner builder areas with earthbuilding.
I am lead to believe the only reason Earthships are finished is because low cost wages paid to Mexican labourers.
Is that correct?

Eric Hanson

Steward and Man of Many Mushrooms

Posts: 5708

Location: Southern Illinois

1682

I like...

posted 3 years ago

3
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Here is an idea that you might not like but should do the trick. Have you thought about getting some fill dirt and dumping the pile right on the ditch line? It would be necessary to spread that pile, but from judging your picture, I think you could do it with a spade and wheelbarrow in an afternoon. Maybe you could get the fill dumped in 2 or more locations, making for less to move and give yourself a shorter distance to move what is left.

Aside from that, I really like the idea of unrolling a big hay bale to insulate over winter— assuming that it stays in place and doesn’t get blown away by wind.

Good luck,

Eric

Some places need to be wild

Joylynn Hardesty

master pollinator

Posts: 5218

Location: Due to winter mortality, I stubbornly state, zone 7a Tennessee

2209

I like...

posted 3 years ago

1
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

John C Daley wrote:Marco, is it ethical to employ the Mexicans at those wage levels?

Umm... I have laid sod for $10 dollars an hour. Within the last 5 years. I appear very white. I am of the opinion if a person will work for a price, so be it. Unethical to me would be, if different skin colors were paid differently for the same job, on a scale that has nothing to do with skill or speed.

'What we do now echoes in eternity.' Marcus Aurelius
How Permies Works Dr. Redhawk's Epic Soil Series

denise ra

pollinator

Posts: 575

Location: OK High Plains Prairie, 23" rain avg

I like...

posted 3 years ago

Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Marco Benito - maybe that's the issue is that I've been trying to use a shovel and I need a different tool. I'm not even sure what a spade is.
But also, there's clay in the soil and we haven't had rain for months so the soil is very hard almost rock-like in some places.

Permies is awesome!!!

denise ra

pollinator

Posts: 575

Location: OK High Plains Prairie, 23" rain avg

I like...

posted 3 years ago

Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

I tried the swing blade and it takes eight or nine whacks standing in one place just to get some of that strong Prairie Grass cut. So not really a good option.

I had a guy out to talk to me about my plumbing situation yesterday and he suggested unrolling some of the big hay bales over the line. I think I'll stop by and talk to my neighbor about that. Good idea, thanks to those who mentioned it.

Permies is awesome!!!

denise ra

pollinator

Posts: 575

Location: OK High Plains Prairie, 23" rain avg

I like...

posted 3 years ago

Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

A mattock, that's what I need to use.

Permies is awesome!!!

Dan Fish

pollinator

Posts: 703

Location: Sierra Nevada Foothills, Zone 7b

155

I like...

posted 3 years ago

2
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

A mattock is definitely going to work. But I'd say one of those heavy duty grub hoes might be even better. Rough sharpen it every hour or so and I believe it will do the job optimally.

Also if it gets too tough or you run out of time, what about a walk behind skidsteer tractor? Your truck should tow one of those and it has to be more effective than a tiller.

I like the hay roll method if it's crunch time.

Fish heads fish heads roly poly fish heads

Jay Angler

master steward

Posts: 13805

Location: Pacific Wet Coast

8138

I like...

posted 3 years ago

1
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

denise ra wrote:A mattock, that's what I need to use.

We have a small one intended for use with one hand, but I'm too wimpy for that. It's 2'+ overall length and I use it a *lot*. However, it couldn't cope with prying out deeply rooted Himalayan Blackberry in our clay soil, so we bought it's big brother which is just more than 3 feet. It's too heavy for me to use for any length of time, but it's got the weight to bite into the clay and the leverage to do something when it does and I'm not in any fear of it breaking under the amount of force I can use and minimal fear of the BSB's* I live with breaking it either. I'm relatively small, but more than that, I'm a delicate build bone-wise. Most active women can handle weights that I can't despite efforts to get stronger. Short answer - if you can find the two sizes, I'd recommend for what you're describing, that you go for the big one (or both, if money's no object in your tool budget.)

This might be the size of our smaller one: https://www.vaughanmfg.com/Products/HMT-Handy-Mattock-Tiller__85201.aspx#.YbDtqNDMJaQ
I can take more precise measurements if it would help.

*Big Strong Boy - the type that have been known to take my perfectly functional tools sized for me, and have "accidents" with them
Edited for approximate measurements.

Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
How permies.com works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads

Lorinne Anderson

pollinator

Posts: 1019

Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

369

I like...

posted 3 years ago

1
Number of slices to send:

Optional 'thank-you' note:

Send

Spade - pretty much a shovel with a pointer tip than a flat edged shovel - hence the reference in a deck of playing cards to the suit "spade".

Pick axe, mattock and several other similarly named tools are swung like an axe into the ground to break it up; and IS back breaking.

Perhaps a previous post could have simply used the phrase "labourers" rather than naming a nationality often associated in the US with "undocumented workers" or "illegal aliens" who are regularly subjected to unfair working conditions and/or wages?

Lorinne Anderson: Specializing in sick, injured, orphaned and problem wildlife for over 20 years.

All the other guys liked the pretty girls, but I always like you, tiny ad

Learn Permaculture through a little hard work

https://wheaton-labs.com/bootcamp