Creating a new breed of wool dog (theoretical)

In another part of this forum, someone brought up dog wool, which is known today as Chiengora. (pronounced: she en GOR uh audio pronunciation ) Chien is French for dog so it is a portmanteau of dog and angora.
(dog wool is discussed on permies here)

I learned last year that this isn't a new thing. I was told by Hereditary Chief Gibby Jacob about the Salish Wool Dog, and extinct breed of dog used for its fur by pre-colonial tribes in the Pacific Northwest.

This is a stuffed Comox from a museum.

Here are some articles about the Salish Wool Dog or Comox from my research after the discussion:
https://www.americanindianmagazine.org/story/a-woolly-tale
https://hakaimagazine.com/features/the-dogs-that-grew-wool-and-the-people-who-love-them/
https://www.science.org/content/article/native-american-blankets-made-dog-hair
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salish_Wool_Dog

The Comox were greatly treasured and fed a diet of fish and had "long white spinnable fur." They were  a Spitz type dog that was about 17 inches high and looked a bit like a sheep and a Pomeranian crossed.  

I can't help but think that if HUSP  (Horticulture of the United States of Pocahontas... from Paul's Original HUSP post ) had happened, this breed would not be extinct and chiengora would be a more accepted/mainstream concept.

Since learning about it, I've wondered if I could breed a new breed of wool dog... I don't have enough information and I don't have any hereditary right to try to recreate the original Comox. I've started this thread in hopes of working with others to determine the most desirable traits to breed for and other thoughts related to this goal. Here is what I have so far...I have grouped traits by type. I have significant experience working with dogs but none in breeding dogs, spinning, dying or harvesting wool from animals, so I especially need help in these areas.

Physical Characteristics:

Medium Breed  30-40 lbs ish (smaller dogs live longer, but too small and there isn't enough fiber per dog)

not prone to hip/joint problems

can eat a wide variety of appropriate foods

does not have health problems associated with other breeds (like breathing problems in smushed face dogs or eye issues in cocker spaniel or bladder control problems in dachshunds)

Behavior:

enjoys being brushed

willing to jump

willing to stand still

Likes being touched by people

not scared of the noise or vibration of shears?

good family dog

Coat/Wool Traits:

Always white or neutral

Uniform color

grows  quickly

interlocking fibers

dyes well

soft

warm

Dual fur? undercoat and overcoat? is this possible? beneficial?

no/few guard hairs?

Other:

easy to breed

small litters

Not particularly barky/vocal

a good mouser (I'm allergic to cats and I'd like a mousing alternative.. this is a trait of several types of terriers. It is my new breed and I can breed for whatever trait I want)

What Else?

This dog may already exist in the Puli: https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/puli/

I had a neighbor who I made a drop spindle for. She was going to spin the massive amount of shedding she brushed/collected from her couple of samoyeds. I did some research prior to making the drop spindle and found another lady spinning dog fur, also using samoyeds.  

When I lived on the Olympic Peninsula as ranger and educator, a Makah friend talked about a local endemic breed of wool producing dogs. Their wool was apparently only surpassed in value by mountain goat, which had to be found in the Cascades (mtn goats were later imported to the Olympics by Teddy Roosevelt for hunting and became invasive nuisances to vegetation and people). My friend said he thought a couple of the semi feral dogs around their area (NW corner of peninsula) looked like they were related to these wool dogs. However, one such dog that I saw with him looked nothing like what is described and pictured above. It looked like a large anatolian shepherd (120+lbs) but with crazy thick and fluffy grayish fur that looked like you could go up and pull handfuls off until you filled a large garbage bag and it would still be plenty warm. He may have been wrong, but I always deferred to him on his own culture and their history.

Ben Zumeta wrote: It looked like a large anatolian shepherd (120+lbs) but with crazy thick and fluffy grayish fur that looked like you could go up and pull handfuls off until you filled a large garbage bag and it would still be plenty warm.

Perhaps a Komondor? Looks like a larger version of the Puli mentioned above

The dog I saw him refer to looked like a giant wolf on rogaine that had its fur fluffed and dried by an 80’s hairband stylist, then it rolled in muddy kelp on the beach. It was likely a beautiful dog under that absurd amount of tufty, disheveled fur. However, it was semi feral in the western olympic rainforest in the spring. It was friendly to me and apparently it ate well enough somehow, but just roamed the town and forest around it.

I felted some fur from my friend's poodle. I think some poodles are better for "wool" than others, but it might be a potential part of a breeding program.

Cat Knight wrote:In another part of this forum, someone brought up dog wool, which is known today as Chiengora...

I can't help but think that if HUSP  (Horticulture of the United States of Pocahontas... from Paul's Original HUSP post ) had happened, this breed would not be extinct and chiengora would be a more accepted/mainstream concept.

Since learning about it, I've wondered if I could breed a new breed of wool dog... I don't have enough information and I don't have any hereditary right to try to recreate the original Comox. I've started this thread in hopes of working with others to determine the most desirable traits to breed for and other thoughts related to this goal. Here is what I have so far...I have grouped traits by type. I have significant experience working with dogs but none in breeding dogs, spinning, dying or harvesting wool from animals, so I especially need help in these areas.

Physical Characteristics:

Medium Breed  30-40 lbs ish (smaller dogs live longer, but too small and there isn't enough fiber per dog)

not prone to hip/joint problems

can eat a wide variety of appropriate foods

does not have health problems associated with other breeds (like breathing problems in smushed face dogs or eye issues in cocker spaniel or bladder control problems in dachshunds)

Behavior:

enjoys being brushed

willing to jump

willing to stand still

Likes being touched by people

not scared of the noise or vibration of shears?

good family dog

Coat/Wool Traits:

Always white or neutral

Uniform color

grows  quickly

interlocking fibers

dyes well

soft

warm

Dual fur? undercoat and overcoat? is this possible? beneficial?

no/few guard hairs?

Other:

easy to breed

small litters

Not particularly barky/vocal

a good mouser (I'm allergic to cats and I'd like a mousing alternative.. this is a trait of several types of terriers. It is my new breed and I can breed for whatever trait I want)

What Else?

I think you are on to something... but maybe breeding is not even necessary! There seem to be a number of extant breeds that are already suitable for spinning. The main issues I can see with dog wool fiber are: IDENTIFYING GOOD DOG WOOL BREEDS, selecting for desirable traits (staple length, strength, durability?, warmth, softness, colors?), HARVESTING in sufficient quantity to be useful/profitable/more than just whimsy by fiber-fanatic-dog-fanciers, and, as you said, MAINSTREAMING the idea so that there is a market for the fiber and products made from it.

Owners, handlers, groomers, breeders, rescue organizations; all could be sources of fiber from ALREADY existing dogs! No need to go breeding more "new" dogs... The best part, is the dog care and feeding part is outsourced, and no new puppy mill needs to be created to breed sweaters and hats.

Heck, a business model could be made around all these folks donating their collected grooming "waste" fur, which could be aggregated, and processed into any number of stages of the yarn-making process, then sold to spinners, weavers, knitters. Finished goods could also be made and sold directly. It could be set-up as a not-for-profit and donate profits to dog rescue organizations, possibly to the breed-specific rescues for breeds that are good wool dogs, which are often of great interest to fans/owners of those specific breeds... which in turn would be a way to get more "donations" of groomed fur from those breeds!

To me, it seems like any double-coated dog breed would work for obtaining dog fur or dog wool.

Cross-breeding the two best double-coated dogs might be beneficial and might make a good experiment.

Or maybe there are already dogs that have been crossed so making this experiment easier.

I remembered reading here on the forum about spinning dog hair and was lucky enough to find the thread:

https://permies.com/t/152068/fiber-arts/spin-poodle-hair

And this thread might also be of interest to some:

https://permies.com/t/136215/fiber-arts/traditional-animal-fiber-projects#1068123

Wry grin look at the photos of groomers and owners during the shedding season.  Most of our double coated spitz type breeds produce a fair amount of lovely soft undercoat that is a dream to spin.  Samoyeds in fact were used as fiber dogs by the folks who developed them.   Unaltered males and females will normally blow their coat twice a year with the heaviest "harvest" in the spring.   A densely coated show Sammy can almost fill a kitchen can trash bag full of fiber.   I had a friend who used to give me Samoyed fiber yumm.  Another gave me Great Pyrenees undercoat not quite as nice coarser and more guard hairs but still made nice yarn.

Ben Zumeta wrote:Their wool was apparently only surpassed in value by mountain goat, which had to be found in the Cascades (mtn goats were later imported to the Olympics by Teddy Roosevelt for hunting and became invasive nuisances to vegetation and people). My friend said he thought a couple of the semi feral dogs around their area (NW corner of peninsula) looked like they were related to these wool dogs. However, one such dog that I saw with him looked nothing like what is described and pictured above. It looked like a large anatolian shepherd (120+lbs) but with crazy thick and fluffy grayish fur that looked like you could go up and pull handfuls off until you filled a large garbage bag and it would still be plenty warm. He may have been wrong, but I always deferred to him on his own culture and their history.

He is likely right that they are descendents of dogs kept by the tribes, but those sound more like their hunting/protection/utility dogs that they were very careful to keep away from the wool dogs. Although as one final act of rebellion they may have let them mix? Seems likely.
He is 100% accurate on the mountain goat, the single surviving dog wool blanket known to the west (I dearly hope some are still with the tribes) is mixed with mountain goat.

Kenneth Elwell wrote:

Owners, handlers, groomers, breeders, rescue organizations; all could be sources of fiber from ALREADY existing dogs! No need to go breeding more "new" dogs... The best part, is the dog care and feeding part is outsourced, and no new puppy mill needs to be created to breed sweaters and hats.

Heck, a business model could be made around all these folks donating their collected grooming "waste" fur, which could be aggregated, and processed into any number of stages of the yarn-making process, then sold to spinners, weavers, knitters. Finished goods could also be made and sold directly. It could be set-up as a not-for-profit and donate profits to dog rescue organizations, possibly to the breed-specific rescues for breeds that are good wool dogs, which are often of great interest to fans/owners of those specific breeds... which in turn would be a way to get more "donations" of groomed fur from those breeds!

I think you may be onto something too. I bet most shelters, especially those in warmer climates would be happy to allow people to volunteer to shave or brush dogs and remove the fur. If you are a charity like that why turn down free grooming.

Likewise I bet most groomers would love to get something for the fur they produce.

Cat Knight wrote:I think you may be onto something too. I bet most shelters, especially those in warmer climates would be happy to allow people to volunteer to shave or brush dogs and remove the fur. If you are a charity like that why turn down free grooming.

Likewise I bet most groomers would love to get something for the fur they produce.

Part of the issue here is that in North America, we don't have a market currently for the sheep's wool our farmers produce, so creating the infrastructure for dog wool at even the community level, as opposed to just the individual level, may be a struggle until more people decide that cheap artificial fabrics aren't an acceptable choice.

This link explains this better and has links for more information: https://permies.com/t/74995/fiber-arts/Vancouver-Island-fibreshed-missing

I believe I read somewhere that the reason the Native Dogs went "extinct" were that they were more work for less results than the introduced sheep that arrived with Northern Europeans. Now we have a glut of sheep's wool so great that many farmers just compost or burn the sheerings. This is because nylon and polyester are cheaper and less work! Human nature is a bitch sometimes? At least wool items can be composted at end of life. Artificial fibers are polluting our oceans, air and land.

So this isn't just an issue of "can we create a breed of wool dog", it's "can we convince more people to learn how to spin (guilty as charged - I don't know why it scares me, but the last time I tried it aggravated my shoulder, so I've got to get over that and try again a different way), then how to knit/weave/crotchet/nalbind/felt etc, then how to do those things in a way that can actually turn into real-life clothing. There are all sorts of people here on permies working on that sort of thing at all sorts of scales. Join in people - you don't have to start with dog fur or sheep wool, you can start with plants you can grow or that Mother Nature grows spontaneously. R Ranson grows cotton as a houseplant. A friend of mine grows flax. My land grows Nettle. There are lots of ways to get started! And if you happen to have a dog that has the right kind of fur, try offering it to people in your community that have an interest in spinning in the hopes of spreading the idea of home-grown or at least locally-grown clothing!

This is very intriguing, as a new spinner I'm still learning about all the different animal fibers out there. I don't know enough about dog breeds to make any suggestions, but best of luck on your venture! If I come up with any helpful ideas I'll let you know.

I've spun dog hair, and had some dog hair pieces. But, it maintains the wet dog smell whenever wet, so it became frustrating. This is why I keep sheep. Also, sheep eat grass. Dogs need meat.

This breed wouldn't be in the breed registry. Native American dog breeds were rendered extinct with the arrival of European dogs. There's no remaining genetics of these ancient dogs, even in American dog breeds.

But also the puli and komodor seem to have matted furs, which would be added processing to prepare it for spinning. Fiber must be carded through in order to make all the fibers aligned, for proper spinning.

It's interesting, though, the historical purposes of dogs. In the Americas, they were fiber animals and survival foods. Most people see them as having always been man's best friend, always a part of the family.

It may be that you could present some sort of dual purpose dog that's a livestock guardian dog and also a fiber producer. That could be interesting and potentially offset the cost of having an LGD, which I have personally always thought was too much trouble to bother with.

This is an absolutely astounding post! I had no idea that spinning dog fur was such a thing and that there were so many unexplored  possibilities for it!
Spinning sounds fascinating! I already enjoy crocheting and can knit in a somewhat novice fashion… but how to start with spinning inexpensively? Living in the suburbs spinning never seemed  like a possibility for me but I have always been intrigued by it. I’m wondering about starting with something simple like perhaps twisting a rope out of my dogs fur… she sheds soooo much!

Kimberly Agnese wrote:This is an absolutely astounding post! I had no idea that spinning dog fur was such a thing and that there were so many unexplored  possibilities for it!
Spinning sounds fascinating! I already enjoy crocheting and can knit in a somewhat novice fashion… but how to start with spinning inexpensively? Living in the suburbs spinning never seemed  like a possibility for me but I have always been intrigued by it. I’m wondering about starting with something simple like perhaps twisting a rope out of my dogs fur… she sheds soooo much!

Maybe starting here:
https://permies.com/t/167189/permaculture-fiber-arts-tools/drop-spindle

We have an entire fiber arts forum rabbit hole, you could possibly spend weeks in... I know I have!

Thank you!

This is a stuffed Comox from a museum.

That's the extinct turnspit dog from England. Specifically, he was named Whiskey and is on display in the Abergavenny Museum in Wales. https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2014/05/13/311127237/turnspit-dogs-the-rise-and-fall-of-the-vernepator-cur
If you remove the photo, it will help prevent perpetuating misinformation about the salish wool dog in internet searches. (I found this post that way)

If you want a modern equivalent, the standard size American Eskimo Dog is nearly identical looking to the Salish Wool Dog. There is no genetic relation, the American Eskimo Dog isn't indigenous at all, it is really a German Spitz but was renamed during anti-German sentiment in WWI.

Nearly all long haired dog fur can be spun. Either the undercoat of long fluffy double coated breeds, or the hair of breeds with hair that grows continuously like poodle or bichon.

Corded coats like the Komondor or Puli are NOT suitable because their hair is already felted (that's what makes the cords). You can't spin that.

Dogs continued to be shorn and spun by PNW tribes until at least the 1940's. But the dogs they were using (that I've seen in pictures at least) already were quite different looking with different fur (more bichon like, less spitz like) from the original salish wool dog. The salish wool dog was functionally extinct by that point. I've heard there is beginning to be efforts by some tribes to recreate their salish wool dog. With modern genetic testing, they may be able to get a breed that retains a portion of the indigenous DNA. I hope they can anyway.

Side note, Salish wool dogs weren't running around the forest or mountains. They were a highly prized, protected breed kept on specially designated islands usually, or sometimes in pens or caves, to keep them separate and protected from the other village dogs. The village dogs were the ones running around the mountains helping with hunting. All the tribes with the salish wool dog maintained at least two separate dog breeds.