Controversial Opinions - What are yours?

Good Morning,

We all have opinions and thoughts! Not everything HAS to be permaculture related but invisible bonus points if it is.

What would you say is your most controversial opinion?

Respectful and engaging dialogue please!

Note - This is in the Ulcer Factory. You may lose apples.

I will start with one of mine.

I don't like the term "No Till" as the majority of garden influencers are actually utilizing tillage!

I view using a broad fork as tillage, minimally disturbing perhaps compared to a tractor but it still is tillage.

Advertise it as maybe "Low Till" and emphasis that repeated bare tillage is not necessary but it has its place especially when starting gardens.

This is a hill I could die on... or be convinced that perhaps semantics is not worth holding the line.

I spent the 90s getting a couple of degrees in education. This pursuit convinced me that I didn't want to teach because it's all done wrong, which is at least somewhat controversial. I summarize the important bits of my rift with society at large on this topic thus:

1) There should be no grades awarded. Students' records should include a transcript of subjects the school thinks they've mastered and that's all. In essence, the 'grades' in this system are a) displays mastery, and b) doesn't yet display mastery. (The other kind of grade -- age segregation, is also dumb.)

2) Every instructional contact should be voluntary. Every kid in every class under literally every circumstance should be there because they value the opportunity and want to work on a subject. Any teacher who finds a student disruptive should be able to tell them to piss off.

3) Everything that can be done to eliminate competition from schools should be. Sport and all other endeavors, drastically reframed, can be about: fun, cooperation, and personal excellence. Norm-referenced scoring and awards can be entirely dropped in favor of unlimited criterion-referenced analogs. There is no value and plenty of harm caused by school rivalry.

4) Students should maintain the school. Day to day light maintenance and janitorial duties should all be performed by the students. This teaches a few valuable, practical skills as well as helping to instill civic pride.

In every recipe that calls for cinnamon, replacing 50-100% of the cinnamon with cayenne improves the end product.

Controversial... Man, you really want us to lose apples!

Here is one: Most newborns are ugly. That's something you cannot say to their parents. So we all pretend they are the most beautiful thing on Earth, because yes, as a concept, a new life is beautiful, but let's face it, they look like half inflated rubber dolls. They make up for these ugly first days by looking awesome for the next few years though.

Disclaimer. I have nothing against ugly newborns. It's the white lie what costs me.

Christopher Weeks wrote:In every recipe that calls for cinnamon, replacing 50-100% of the cinnamon with cayenne improves the end product.

Ooh! I'm going to have to try this one!

Christopher Weeks wrote:In every recipe that calls for cinnamon, replacing 50-100% of the cinnamon with cayenne improves the end product.

Tripling the amount of cinnamon is always the right amount for a given recipe.  I'm not sure that would extend to tripling with a 50/50 mix of cayenne though...

Mike Haasl wrote:Tripling the amount of cinnamon is always the right amount for a given recipe.

You're thinking of garlic. :)

Going to go all out and use that 'should' word here...feel free to strike me down...I won't mind

I strongly believe that no one should be struggling for basic food, shelter or medical attention no matter where in the
world one lives...basic needs should be a given and from that point on a personal choice of direction and growth.

I'm a big man, I got big shoulders.

I'm going to say it, and no amount of apple cores will stop me.

I think outdoor cats in the majority of situations are a major detriment to the environment and it should not be allowed*.

* - Spayed/Neutered barn cats do/can play a role on some homesteads. The vast majority do not.

Judith Browning wrote:Going to go all out and use that 'should' word here...feel free to strike me down...I won't mind

I strongly believe that no one should be struggling for basic food, shelter or medical attention no matter where in the
world one lives...basic needs should be a given and from that point on a personal choice of direction and growth.

I thought Human Rights were not controversial at all.

Abraham Palma wrote:I thought Human Rights were not controversial at all.

In America, especially, there is a very strong political strain against positive rights. So, for instance, I don't believe we have a *right* to health care because that right would force action from someone else. Instead, I think that public healthcare is a deeply wise investment that most of the richest nations in the world would are smart to make.

See; lots of room for controversy!

Abraham Palma wrote:

Judith Browning wrote:Going to go all out and use that 'should' word here...feel free to strike me down...I won't mind

I strongly believe that no one should be struggling for basic food, shelter or medical attention no matter where in the
world one lives...basic needs should be a given and from that point on a personal choice of direction and growth.

I thought Human Rights were not controversial at all.

Agreed!
I suppose it's the source of those basic needs that becomes the controversy and stands in the way of providing for those in need...becomes a political football.

Judith Browning wrote:Going to go all out and use that 'should' word here...feel free to strike me down...I won't mind

I strongly believe that no one should be struggling for basic food, shelter or medical attention no matter where in the
world one lives...basic needs should be a given and from that point on a personal choice of direction and growth.

I can't give you enough apples for this.

Aside from my personal care choices, clothes and technological purchases, my journey is quite far from permie as I'm working in other countries towards that aim.

James Alun wrote:

Judith Browning wrote:Going to go all out and use that 'should' word here...feel free to strike me down...I won't mind

I strongly believe that no one should be struggling for basic food, shelter or medical attention no matter where in the
world one lives...basic needs should be a given and from that point on a personal choice of direction and growth.

I can't give you enough apples for this.

Aside from my personal care choices, clothes and technological purchases, my journey is quite far from permie as I'm working in other countries towards that aim.

And you are seeing first hand the need and likely the political positions that stand in the way of alleviating it.  

There IS enough for everyone to have their basic needs met if there was not so much global greed and political posturing.

Thank you for the work that you do!

Judith Browning wrote:

And you are seeing first hand the need and likely the political positions that stand in the way of alleviating it.  

There IS enough for everyone to have their basic needs met if there was not so much global greed and political posturing.

Thank you for the work that you do!

In a way it isn’t the greed side that’s so frustrating, it’s the absolute blind ignorance and westerncentrism that’s infuriating.

A couple of years ago, I was in Senegal. Our ngo donated say 30 laptops, 40 computers and 40 monitors to a local, senegalese run training school. The computers got win 11 pro under the original  purchase licence. I wanted to see about getting ms office licences for them.

Back in 2018 I had got 50 licences for about 50 dollars for a uk based church through MS’ charitable giving scheme. But that scheme doesn’t work in africa, there is no way for charities in africa to legally get the ngo discounts from loads of western software companies. And there is no way they can afford the licences. So what are they supposed to do? Either use craked copies of software or train kids on the free alternatives that don’t get used in business or government.

There are grass roots ngo’s in africa that have far more chance of making a difference than any western initiative. But our bloody narrow-minded ignorance or even worse, fucking white saviourism, can do more harm than the local corruption or diversion of aid.

James Alun wrote: But our bloody narrow-minded ignorance or even worse, fucking white saviourism, can do more harm than the local corruption or diversion of aid.

At the risk of pissing off people on both sides of the spectrum (I guess equality is a good thing, lol), I saw this a while back and it reminded me of the "be nice"  rule here at permies. In particular, it reminded me of the strange amount of pushback that is often seen with regards to the "be nice" rule. I suppose most people will at least on the surface agree that being nice\kind is a good thing, but it seems when it really comes down to the wire, many people seem to expect it coming to them more than giving it to others themselves.

Not a single core...people are holding back.

not holding back then..

**************

the olympics are an immoral horror designed to control people at a global level and foster a false narrative of "global solidarity" while masking a fully elitist program of breads and circuses run by the wine and cheese class..

people are duped into supporting their team in the name of "national pride" (root cause of much war and suffering in the world) and therefore to encourage the insane carbon bomb that is required for this monstrosity to proceed every 4 years.. underprivileged are uprooted, habitats destroyed, mountains of waste are created, minds are numbed etc. etc. etc.

opposing the olympics is akin to bad citizenship which is batshit crazy as there is NOTHING civic-minded about a 100% artificial money pit... the very idea of "olympic glory" is nonsense..

people either travel for no reason to paint themselves garish colors and fly war banners or stay at home watching the boob tube, screaming at it, claiming "we won" or we were robbed" while gorging on UPFs while they did NOTHING AT ALL ... there is no "we" only a narcissistic glorified rock thrower blubbering on about their "dream" and how they are "proud to represent their county"

is if that ever really matters... or ever did - the notion that the coliseum in Rome is some kind of cultural gem for humanity is absurd... it was designed for unspeakable mindless bloodbaths as entertainment... the new version simply defers that suffering to the planet...

Blackberry:
Men have always hated us.

Holly:
No. They just destroyed the warren because we were in their way.

Fiver:
They'll never rest until they've spoiled the earth.

as far as permaculture goes... imagine if only 10% of the funds we redirected to sustainable agriculture practices, or seed banks, or greener energy, or, or, or, or

this applies to all artificial tribalist-encouraging professional sport - ban it ALL and house the homeless or create community gardens in the stadiums as a start..

NOTHING against people playing recreational games in their community - do THAT not IT ffs

**********************

is that savage enough 4 you?

The following, if I may venture to say so, may be the most controversial opinion yet voiced here.

It was a good thing that yesterday while weeding the garden, I disturbed a yellowjacket nest and was stung four times and chased halfway around the world and back. And I don’t want them to go away. I want them to stay!—

to stay and remind me that this land belongs to all creatures, that I am an animal like you, that I must respect my neighbors of all species, that I should take care and step cautiously upon the earth!

In other, less controversial but still controversial words, that one should have humility. Oftentimes the controversy is not in the broad and overarching statements, but in the details, the interpretations, the concrete examples. Here the principle that one should have humility, shared by many, is taken to the extent that it is good even that yellowjackets might establish themselves in my potato patch, and defend themselves from me when they feel threatened. This even benefits me by making me more alert, more cautious, more attentive and respectful to all the other non-human people of the land.

i LOVE wasps etc. so your post is not controversial at all to me.. it's comforting...

i try to disturb nothing... i can only bring myself to deal with biting flies and aphids.. even the criminal gangs of slugs get a pass as do the red squirrels..

your lesson is profound... thank you and peace!

Yes!--nonviolence is also one of my deeply held values. I think the two (that and humility) go hand in hand.

I have to mention that if I had had a wasp sting allergy then such an encounter would be much more dangerous, and I might feel differently about that particular situation and subsequent health emergency. But practically speaking, the way forward is roughly the same: avoid that part of the garden and don't disturb it.

My opinion is for me and your opinion is for you. I don't have a wasp allergy, but maybe you do, and react with dismay rather than delight at the colony of wasps in the potatoes. We are all tiny animals in a world full of trillions upon trillions of other animals and uncountable other forms of sentient life, except that many of our species have decided that they are the masters of the world and the arbiters of right and wrong, good and bad, eaten the poison fruit so to speak. But how could anyone's opinion be so universally applicable? We can do what we can to better our own situations and work towards the harmony between diverse kinds of people, in the little spaces where we live our lives.

It is like walnuts. For instance I have a walnut allergy (not a severe one) but will still pick some if I have gloves because I know people who like to eat them, and encourage others to plant them and butternuts and hickories, because they are all wonderful trees.

Maieshe Ljin wrote:

I have to mention that if I had had a wasp sting allergy then such an encounter would be much more dangerous, and I might feel differently about that particular situation and subsequent health emergency. But practically speaking, the way forward is roughly the same: avoid that part of the garden and don't disturb it.

oh for sure there are exceptions, allergies, big wasp nest in your porch has to go, mice eating all your grain for the animals etc.

but in general kill only if being eaten or to be eaten.. clear only what land you have to etc. etc.

good on you for picking the walnuts for people - that's really nice!!

omg this reminds me how happier i am out of the city.. much less disturbing stuff to be exposed to  

I have a strange more against picking up a thing that was thrown upon the ground by someone else. Such as, I will generally not touch things that people cut off of a tree and left on the ground. If someone says they are clearing invasives and they offer to give me some for my own uses or for biomass, I won’t take them. I didn’t follow this that much in the past but it started to become clearer this winter. I started eyeing the wood chip piles on the side of the road and some disgust in me made me hesitate to take them, even though I would have in the past.

Maybe it has some relationship to the honorable harvest. If someone destroys something and throws it on the ground, then there is an injury that the ground must absorb and make right, re-balance. It is to the ground upon which the thing happened and to no one else that these materials belong. In that way it is as violent an act to tug along a big pine branch that was cut off a tree, as to cut it off myself. Except that instead of being a real human being and honoring my very own place in the world, giving my reverence and gratitude to that tree, kneeling down and making a petition to gather the branches—instead of that I’m hiding behind another person’s actions, the actions of one who didn’t do such things, didn’t offer the things for harvest & gather up a thing honourably and anyway didn’t take it—and when that thing isn’t offered then what is cut off and gathered up belongs rightly to the ground from which it grew originally.

I don’t mean to criticize anyone else, only myself. Scavengers are fed by the gods themselves, and intercepting waste streams is a thing that needs to be done, but there is something different to the taking what is left on the ground part of it. It’s almost gained the flavor of breaking into church, snatching the sacramental bread and wine and then holding some sort of bread and wine party.

Abraham Palma wrote:Most newborns are ugly.

All babies look like me.
But then, I look like all babies.
-Winston Churchill

Christopher, I think my post might be more of what Timothy had in mind, so here goes : (bring on the cores)

For all you fluffy bunnies on this site,  I very strongly believe we should go back to public punishments held on the courthouse square!!!
For even more cores, how about this,  I very strongly believe we should go back to public executions held on the courthouse square!!!

I do not disrespect anyone's opinion and I will fight for your right to have and hold yours.  Just "sayin",  these are just a few of mine.

Peace

Chistopher,

I like the thoughts about education.  But here is an oddball caveat specific to this thread:  about half of your ideas are not only not controversial, they are flat out admirable, widely accepted.  I am especially thinking about the idea of students having some ownership in the school by doing some of the basic cleaning and light maintenance.

And then there are your thoughts on athletics.  Student athletics can sometimes be incredibly helpful to me in the classroom.  I have students who benefit tremendously from the exercise they get from playing sports.  And after more than a quarter century, I can occasionally recognize when a specific sport season is over because some of these students get a sort of lightweight depression from not having the exercise.

But then there is the inherent and unavoidable fact that we legitimize regular, consistent absenteeism from some (mostly afternoon) classes for the purpose of playing sports.  And I have to question priorities when this happens.  Additionally, if a student is spending considerable time playing sports or practicing sports, then they are not spending that time studying.  This is a real problem for a good number of students.  And we hire “teachers” based on their ability to coach.  I have seen coaches hired as faculty but given “teaching” assignments consisting of monitoring weight lifting!  And for reasons unknown to me, the Social Studies Department is often considered the coaching department.

Basically I agree with you on just about every point!



Eric

ONE OTHER THING!!

Football.  I am somewhere between a little confused and positively dumbstruck about the fact that high school football is even an official event at public schools.  I am not saying I am opposed to football, not at all, but it amazes me that we are so very, very safety conscious, that current generations grow up wearing helmets and body armor (not kidding!) when riding a tricycle and football is somehow not only acceptable but widely embraced.

Playing football is basically taking a very real risk of serious injury and protective gear can only help so much.  My first year teaching I was at a game and there was a play that ended in just a couple of seconds in a big pile of people.  As the players got up and off each other, one lay on his back, motionless.  His foot was squarely planted on the ground, his calve going straight up about a foot at which point it turned mid-calve and pointed *Past* 90 degrees before reaching his knee.  It looked like he grew a second knee on that leg!  I could hardly believe my eyes.  Both the tibia and fibula broke clean though!  He was in my first hour psychology class.  His football days were over.  I have to ask how this helped him earn credits towards graduation.

So when toddlers have to wear helmets to ride a tricycle, how do even allow football?  I have known a LOT of people who played football until they “blew out their knee.”

If you want to play football, play football.  But that it is a school activity sometimes bemuses me.


Food for thought,



Eric

And NOW I can’t stop!

Ok, here is my biggest one at least as far as education.  


At the moment, the loudest voice in educational theory (a surprisingly flimsy discipline) is Charlotte Daniellson, and her findings/ideas are drastically reshaping the way teachers are evaluated and even how tenure even works.  But a little about Daniellson:

She first earned a bachelor’s degree (is Asian historical studies?  It’s really vague) and went into government work.  

She then worked as an economist (but her education for this is strangely vague)

She then decided to be a teacher and her focus was on teacher evaluations and how to make them somehow better.

As a teacher she taught all grades from Kindergarten to College.

She became an administrator (presumably a principal)

She then founded the Danielson group which trains administrators to evaluate teachers ($2000/person/day if I remember, feel free to check me).


OK, here is where I start getting suspicious:

What does “all grades Kindergarten to college” mean?  To me, that sounds like a year teaching each grade for a year.  That’s 14 years right there.

How does one go from government work to economist to education?  How much time at each?

Where did she teach at?  I can’t find out.  Neither can the NY Times.  You would think she would be eager to say where she taught, but?

If she spent one year (or even three) at each grade, just how much experience could she attain at any grade?  Not much.  It took me years to really become competent at teaching psychology.


So if someone who bounces from career to career, and within education bounces from grade to grade, has questionable college credentials and no actual record of where she taught or where she was a principal is considered not just credible but a “rock Star” (not my words), why does she have the ability to determine how I am evaluated (which is fundamentally different than I was ever taught, including terminology that to this day no one has defined or explained to me).  How is it that her evaluation process effectively nullifies my contract with the school?  And what does she know about education that I don’t when I have taught my classes for over a quarter of a century.  


I could go on, but you get the idea.





Eric