Change of shopping habits before the 20th of Jan, 2025?

The news says that the USA will create import fees of 25% from several countries on or after the 20th of Jan, 2025 (probably) and that the other nations will return in kind.  That's on everything from big ticket items like cars to chocolate bars not made in the USA.

That also includes the supplies to make those things.  So even if it's made locally, but from foreign materials, it's going to mean big changes.

Some say it's posturing, others say it's not.  To be honest, I don't really care.  All I know that no matter what happens with this, trade across the US/Canadian border will not be the same after this winter.  

Has that changed your buying habits?

It has mine.  I am buying a lot of nonperishable stuff I need for the next few years before trade tensions begin.  


I'm also wishing my post office would recover from recent events enough that I can start selling my book as $29 CAD will now cost $36.25 (plus import processing fees) CAD for US customers.  

Liz has been buying as many supplies as possible.
We will see what the future holds when it arrives.
It may not be as traumatic as we hear.
But, until then we are keeping the barn door closed.

My prediction.
It won't be as dramatic or as immediately bad as predicted. But the fallout will change a lot of how we interact with the supply chain.  A much bigger change than is threatened on the 20th.

I try hard to buy as local as possible, anyway, so hopefully we won't feel it, too badly. But, I don't think it's merely posturing, but is instead an attempt to fix some issues with the USA, both in foreign & domestic policies. Time will tell, whether/who it works, &/or harms.

One thing I've been buying extra of are mass manufactured books.  The supplies cross the border several times before it's a finished book.

I completed the set of Branson Sanderson stormlight and mistborn series.  I got most of them from the thrift shop, but haven't found the fist in the series's and the last.  The library wait time is a few years, so I indulged.

And a couple of books about art.

Given how slow I am at reading, this should last me a handful of years.

I'm buying everything I think I'll be needing now rather than waiting.  Everything is smelling like a crash to me.

I can't imagine it will have nearly the impact that covid did, with the lockdowns and supply issues, but I try to keep pretty well stocked on essentials in any case, as well as buying American made goods whenever possible.  As per normal, I expect the "sky is falling" people that are predicting a disaster are vastly overstating the impact, but I also live my life by "hope for the best and prepare for the worst".  It may be we are headed for a change back to a more barter based economy, and I'm of the mind that that is a good thing.  People dealing with one another face-to-face, or as near to that as possible makes for good relationships in my mind.  Americans have always come together to help one another in times of great need.  I don't see that changing, so worst case scenario, I think we'll all still be okay.

To be honest, my shopping habits changed well before the talk of tariffs. I started quite a few years ago simply being more prepared, so I didn't feel so helpless during a winter storm as my family got bigger. Then Covid happened, and beyond stocking up, I realized how important local resources are. I think everyone should shop local when they can. This helps the economy in your town/city, which will help you overall. While I agree if these changes happen it will probably cause some economic upheaval... I am trying to keep optimistic and using the opportunity to start a small business selling dried culinary herbs... because there is no local source around here.

I think changing your shopping habits might be a good thing... but we need small businesses to make a comeback so there are more options.

Matt McSpadden wrote:To be honest, my shopping habits changed well before the talk of tariffs. I started quite a few years ago simply being more prepared, so I didn't feel so helpless during a winter storm as my family got bigger. Then Covid happened, and beyond stocking up, I realized how important local resources are. I think everyone should shop local when they can. This helps the economy in your town/city, which will help you overall. While I agree if these changes happen it will probably cause some economic upheaval... I am trying to keep optimistic and using the opportunity to start a small business selling dried culinary herbs... because there is no local source around here.

I think changing your shopping habits might be a good thing... but we need small businesses to make a comeback so there are more options.

THIS. Every. Single. Word.

The only thing left is to fill up with gas as that's going to hit hard on both sides of the border if things escalate.

Looks we have a few extra days on this one: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0m19l8d4ngo

Probably.  

I didn't see if it mentioned how long from when he signs the thingy to when it actually starts happening.  Training, bureaucracy, updating computers to new requirements... would that take time or would they just stop incoming mail and wait until that was all done.

And is it still looking to be on small, individual purchases, or larger stuff?  Like materials for making things?

It is my understanding that President Trump is suggesting traditional tariffs which would effect items sent to this country for resale. In other words, USA stores buying Canadian products to sell, will now have to pay more money to get them, and therefore charge more money for them, and the US government would get a cut. This seems to be just B2B related.

To my knowledge this would not affect individual sales where someone crosses the border in either direction to buy things, and then wants to bring them home. They would still have to pay the normal duties and taxes... but I don't see any indication that there would be any increase for personal purchases.

I also have not seen Canada threatening to tariff USA products going to Canada?

In other words, USA stores buying Canadian products to sell, will now have to pay more money to get them, and therefore charge more money for them, and the US government would get a cut.  

and the US customer pays more?
I don't understand the 'governments cut' in that transaction?
More tax?
It's all very confusing 🙄

I really don't understand how tariffs are going to bring the cost of things down in the US.
Is the point to force us to buy only US made/grown goods?
If that's the case even buying locally doesn't solve anything as all of the local stores are chock full of things from China and other countries.

Well... there is one part of this that is political... which I can't discuss here. But purely on the economic part... yes, it is to encourage people to buy USA made things. The concept is the same for any country, but let's use Canada since we are already talking about them.

Let's say a Canadian company has a product they sell wholesale for $100. Most countries have some level of tariffs, but lets pretend there is nothing at first. The USA company buys it for $100, and sells it for $134.99. Now imagine there is a USA company making pretty much the same product that sells for $150.

Then, a 25% tariff is imposed. This means the Canadian company has to pay the US Government $25 per product to bring it into this country. They don't want to lose the profit... so they are going to start charging the USA companies $125 per product to pay for it. The USA companies don't want to lose profit, so they are going to start charging $169.99 for the product. The American consumer is going to start looking at other options because it got more expensive. And the hope is that there would be an American product that is the same or cheaper. The idea is that the money stays in the USA. Instead of sending money to Canada, the money from buying the product goes to a USA company, which is paying employees in the USA, who use that money to buy more goods in the USA. And keeping money is always better than sending it away :)

Again... this is only half of it. The other half is for political leverage.

Judith Browning wrote:I really don't understand how tariffs are going to bring the cost of things down in the US.

I think that's because it is literally impossible.

A lot, if not most, of what canada exports to the usa is raw materials.   Ours is primarily a resource extraction based economy although there is some manufacturing, it's localized and mostly parts.

Aluminum, the usa mines something like 5% of what they use.  Canada has a lot of the raw materials to make this stuff.  It seems very popular.

So even if it's made in the usa, the materials will cost more under this new system. That's why I suspect it will take a while to show in our wallets.

Christopher Weeks wrote:

Judith Browning wrote:I really don't understand how tariffs are going to bring the cost of things down in the US.

I think that's because it is literally impossible.

Temu is a good example.

There is one product I like that is $20 on temu, and $140+ (cad) on amazon.ca.  the maker gets paid the same either way.  The difference is the hidden middle men.    The path for this product, as fas as I can tell goes, maker, brand, distributor (put a retail markup on this and we are at temu price),  importer to usa, distributor and export, importer to canada, wholesale distributor, amazon, me.

Each time it changes hands it gets a markup (and taxed, even if not directly).  Most of the materials used to make it were probably mined or grown in north america. Plus the transportation costs, etc.

Which makes me wonder... even with high labour costs in north america, if we cut out the massive chain of middle men from our supply chain, things would probably settle down to cost a lot less.  Instead of $140+, this item could probably be produced in north america for a retail price of $40.

I think we've been paying way more for everyday things than we need to.  Locally made would be more ecologicaly sound too.  At least, that's a theory.

But I also can't see the distribution networks shrinking. Nor why blanket tariffs would help if it's also including raw materials.

Matt,
thank you for your explanation.

 Well... there is one part of this that is political... which I can't discuss here.

 Again... this is only half of it. The other half is for political leverage.  

We're in the 'ulcer factory' so maybe it's ok?
Antagonistic political posturing has always been with us, I just don't agree with it as a way to get along globally with our fellow passengers on this planet earth.

Doh! *smacks forehead*

For some reason I missed that this was in the CP...  The USA claim is that Canada and Mexico could and should do more to stop the criminals and drugs from entering our country through their border. The Canada and Mexico claim is they can't or won't.

The hope is that by imposing tariffs (or threatening to), foreign companies and government will both make less money, and therefore be pressured to comply. If the foreign governments will up their security, then the tariffs go back down, and things are good again. If they don't, then the USA government gets money from what stuff is still coming in... and gets a stronger economy, as people buy more local things. I believe we should take care of our families first, and then others. While this sort of thing may not seem "nice", I think it is an example of a country taking care of its citizens first, and then helping others.

Tariffs are just sort of a soft sanction, and both tariffs and sanctions are used all the time by countries for this sort of thing. These particular ones are just getting bigger headlines because the USA is so big, and Trump has been so controversial lately.

I appreciate the thoughtful discussion and explanations in this thread.

I hope not too off topic to ask those who are trying to buy local, does that mean locally made or just local stores and outlets?

We really have no local manufacturing in our area other than many craftsmen and women.

Good question.

There are a lot of advantages in local made and grown.

Not sure how many to mass manufactured but sold locally.  It's harder to do the maths on that one.

And then, all the variations between the two extreme.   I think all we can do is our best with what we know.

r ranson wrote:
I'm also wishing my post office would recover from recent events enough that I can start selling my book as $29 CAD will now cost $36.25 (plus import processing fees) CAD for US customers.  

I buy almost exclusively used books, and coming into Canada from the States, there is supposed to be no import fees (although they do it, usually on orders over $100 and hold your book ransom, call it a toy, and you have no choice to pay their $10 "service" charge plus their bogus tarrifs, and of course it's AI)

Do you know if used books also are tarrif free going into the states? If you dipped the edge in coffee, would it make it across the border as used in good condition?

Just wondering what your book is?

Judith Browning wrote:... does that mean locally made or just local stores and outlets? ...

For me it is a gradient. And whether we are talking about being produced or sold....

In person is better than online.
My town is better than an hour away.
My state is better than a few states away.
Domestic is better than foreign.

Matt McSpadden wrote:...

I also have not seen Canada threatening to tariff USA products going to Canada?

From the article R Ranson posted:  "Trudeau said he supports "the principle of dollar-for-dollar matching tariffs"."

OK folks, I heard on the radio that the orange man will place 25% tariffs on Mexico and Canada and a 10% tariff on China starting tomorrow, Feb 1.

I guess we all will find out very soon what happens next.


Peace

We were budgeting around the purchase of a nixtamal mill (https://www.nixtamatic.com.mx/nixtamal-en.html) from Mexico and made the purchase today instead of waiting to have our financial ducks in a row. (It's only the difference of 3-4 weeks, but we figured why pay an extra $150 in tariff?)

Matt McSpadden wrote:The hope is that by imposing tariffs (or threatening to), foreign companies and government will both make less money, and therefore be pressured to comply. If the foreign governments will up their security, then the tariffs go back down, and things are good again. If they don't, then the USA government gets money from what stuff is still coming in... and gets a stronger economy, as people buy more local things. I believe we should take care of our families first, and then others. While this sort of thing may not seem "nice", I think it is an example of a country taking care of its citizens first, and then helping others.

Tariffs are just sort of a soft sanction, and both tariffs and sanctions are used all the time by countries for this sort of thing. These particular ones are just getting bigger headlines because the USA is so big, and Trump has been so controversial lately.

Looks like you are a prophet.

Josh Hoffman wrote:...Looks like you are a prophet.

Well, that is how these sorts of things work. I see that Mexico is sending troops to the border, and the tarrifs for Mexico have been forestalled. It will be interesting to see what Canada does.

Matt McSpadden wrote:

Josh Hoffman wrote:...Looks like you are a prophet.

Well, that is how these sorts of things work. I see that Mexico is sending troops to the border, and the tarrifs for Mexico have been forestalled. It will be interesting to see what Canada does.

I posted after I read that they (Canada) did the same.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/trudeau-canada-tariff-threat-trump

#2 Son is an amateur historian. Still, hopefully some of you could check what he told me:

" At one time, all the government income in the US was income from tariffs. There was no income tax. The President has said at least once, that he will disband the Internal Revenue Service, which suggests he's planning to remove income tax. Thus he needs to replace income tax with some other source of income, and tariffs is it."

My concerns: Tariffs affect everyone exactly the same way regardless of their disposable income. Income tax in Canada is on a sliding scale, with people with more income paying more, and some people paying nothing. Since most lower income people in Canada spend a large percentage of their money on things they have to have - rent, food, medications, transportation, etc. - rather than on things they can avoid or delay buying, tariffs tend to be harder on the poor than the rich, assuming the things they need come from outside the country.

If these tariffs encourage Multinational companies to grow, process, distribute and sell more goods within the USA, the tariffs won't negatively affect the poor except that the reason the Multinationals do much of this off-shore, is because they can take advantage of lower wages overseas. When China's workers started demanding better pay in the clothing industry, the Companies moved their operations to Viet Nam. So it's complicated...

As some have suggested, all we can do is wait and see. Personally, I would love to see more small businesses which manufacture local goods from local materials (here's looking at you shepherds and shepherdesses). The trick is to do so at wages that keep the items affordable.

Jay Angler wrote:" At one time, all the government income in the US was income from tariffs. There was no income tax. The President has said at least once, that he will disband the Internal Revenue Service, which suggests he's planning to remove income tax. Thus he needs to replace income tax with some other source of income, and tariffs is it."

I think what Matt said was that the threat of tariffs was meant to drive certain behavior, which they did. Now that the behavior desired has happened, the tariffs are reduced or eliminated.

I wonder why we had a 48 hour grandstand period of saying we wont back down etc. by both the north and the south. Interesting stuff for sure.

Jay Angler wrote:#2 Son is an amateur historian. Still, hopefully some of you could check what he told me:

" At one time, all the government income in the US was income from tariffs. There was no income tax. The President has said at least once, that he will disband the Internal Revenue Service, which suggests he's planning to remove income tax. Thus he needs to replace income tax with some other source of income, and tariffs is it."

Well, there was certainly some excise tax going on early in USA history, but the income tax didn't come till the civil war.

Jay Angler wrote:My concerns: Tariffs affect everyone exactly the same way regardless of their disposable income. Income tax in Canada is on a sliding scale, with people with more income paying more, and some people paying nothing. Since most lower income people in Canada spend a large percentage of their money on things they have to have - rent, food, medications, transportation, etc. - rather than on things they can avoid or delay buying, tariffs tend to be harder on the poor than the rich, assuming the things they need come from outside the country.

I am not familiar with canadian income tax, but it seems to be similar here. There are tax brackets that you can move up in. Personally I think taxes should be equal. If you must have income tax... then everyone pays, lets say 10%. If you make more money, then 10% is more. If you make less money, then 10% is less. To me... that is everyone paying their fair share.

Jay Angler wrote:If these tariffs encourage Multinational companies to grow, process, distribute and sell more goods within the USA, the tariffs won't negatively affect the poor except that the reason the Multinationals do much of this off-shore, is because they can take advantage of lower wages overseas. When China's workers started demanding better pay in the clothing industry, the Companies moved their operations to Viet Nam. So it's complicated...

As some have suggested, all we can do is wait and see. Personally, I would love to see more small businesses which manufacture local goods from local materials (here's looking at you shepherds and shepherdesses). The trick is to do so at wages that keep the items affordable.

When companies are sending chickens to China for processing... and yet we are only paying $6 for a rotisserie chicken here in the USA... someone, somewhere is hiding something. Probably subsidized costs. While I agree that tariffs may increase prices... I hope it will increase production here where we can have some transparency about how our food is handled and how much it really costs to grow/raise. If I can get my chicken from my own land... or at least from someone down the road, then the tariffs don't matter for chicken.

Specific to the comments about the poor people being affected more... well yeah, but...

Instead of trying to make it less expensive for the poor people (which generally means taking more money from someone else), why not help them to be more prepared? I'm sure that we all know of a poor family that works hard and struggles and could use some help. We all, also probably know of a lazy family that is just using the system so they can do less. A restaurant owner that I know, see's panhandlers on her corner all the time. She has gone out and offered them a job on the spot... no questions asked... and they turned her down. They would rather live the way they are... than work hard. In my area it is pretty common for people in my area to be living in old, small trailers, barely making it by to heat it in the winter. But they have a snowmobile out front. They have a big screen TV with 10 different streaming services. They all have cell phones. They have tons of pizza boxes from takeout on the front porch.... you get my drift? Those types of people are poor by choice.

I firmly believe we should be charitable to the best of our ability. But I also agree with the saying (and I'm sorry I do not remember who said it) that "if you want people to stop being poor, you have to stop making it so comfortable". Perhaps if we could motivate people to make better choices about how they spend what money they do have.. then perhaps there would be more available for those who really need a helping hand.

I see it as 30 more days of uncertainty. But a lot of the harm has been done already.

The politicians and media in canada are using addiction recovery tactics on the population.   Making us aware of how much we buy from the usa and how much of the same product is also made in canada.  

Many grocery staples on amazon.ca I watch the prices of went up 40% to 200% the eve of the announcement.   They haven't gone down since the reprieve announcement. This seems common for a lot of online shops, but local ones are slower to change, using actual cost instead of estimated replacement cost to set the price.

Usually, I try for four months supply of shelf stable foods, but I've upped that to get through the harvest.

One news article suggested the drug and immigration stuff wasn't actually the problem he is trying to solve, it was just a way to give him full control without having to use the normal government checks and balances.   That there is some deeper motivation. Without knowing that motivation, it's difficult to plan for the future months.

I was taught as a teenager to "read the label" on many products. Ours include theoretically, where something was produced or manufactured, and my son went through the fridge and counters looking to see what various labels said.

Our ketchup bottle says, "Made in Canada from Domestic and Imported Ingredients." It doesn't say imported from where, nor does it give any sort of percentage. Most ketchups have spices that don't grow here, but they're a minor percentage. The tomatoes are the biggie and we certainly grow them well in Southern Ontario - but if the plant wants to operate year round, they either have to switch products (they also make mustard) or import tomatoes.

Still we are more helpful with our labeling than many places are. My DiL was born in India and has some clothing from there, and they don't appear to have local rules about labeling the fiber content. She had an old hoody that is at retirement age, and I will do a burn test to see if I can identify the material before harvesting some of the useful parts.

I would definitely say that the message is getting out to pay more attention and make more shopping decisions based on where things are made. I've suggested for decades that we need a new economic plan with more regional and smaller players and more circular money movement, after reading a book about a place that created a local "currency." Also focusing on purchases that can be useful long term and repaired when they break would be good.

To broaden my views I would love to read some Canadian news sources.  

I need something like NationalPublicRadio or substack where I can read rather than watch videos and a source that preferably has no ads would be a plus.

any favorites?

edit:
I ended up just starting a thread in 'communication' with the same question so if you like go ahead and delete this post

This, makes me so sad....
(quotes below from Jay and R's previous posts)

 "One news article suggested the drug and immigration stuff wasn't actually the problem he is trying to solve, it was just a way to give him full control without having to use the normal government checks and balances.   That there is some deeper motivation. Without knowing that motivation, it's difficult to plan for the future months."

"we don't know what the real plan is, and what the long term effect will be. Is the goal to destroy our economy or are we just collateral damage?."  

Damage is being done to long term relationships that may never be repaired...all around the world.

I am so so sorry.

As far as the 'real plan'?
Destroying the American Constitution?
Insulting and threatening long term allies for perceived gain?
Revenge?
Money?

He's the front man, the distraction, the 'entertainment' for a not so far behind the scenes coup.

For what it's worth, please know that 1/3 of this country did not vote, 1/ 3 of us voted for someone else and, winning only by a thin margin 1/3 voted for him.

I pay very little attention to the news.

Every now and then when I go to Yahoo something might catch my eye.

I guess what was going to happen on Jan 20th has happened??

Well, at least it did not affect me...

Anne Miller wrote:

I guess what was going to happen on Jan 20th has happened??

Yes it did Anne.