How can I reduce the amount of torx-head 3" screws...

...that cost a fortune at the hardware store?

I'm hoping you guys can help me out.   I can get all the dimensional lumber I can use for free, but the screws are killing me on cost.   I already burned thru 1 box of framing screws on a 4x8 composting toilet/shower, and I'm barely getting started on it.

Does anyone have any ideas of anything that works as well/fast/strong, and is also removable and re-usable?

If that's too tall of an order, have you any sources for cheapest 3" torx screws on the market?

...for all you screw lovers out there, what situations, in standard framing, would you consider using some other type of fastener?

Hello James.

Anytime you are looking for shear verses pull apart strength, use nails to save $ and build a stronger structure.

If the connection involves something that looks like pulling your hands apart, use a screw. If the connection looks like sliding one hand up or down, use a nail.

I would estimate that 85% or more of connections are best served by using nails.

However, wood expands and contracts. You may get a stronger connection with nails but it may move outward over time. No problem in a deck but a problem in sheetrock, for example.

It may come down to how much time you may save by using screws. On load bearing projects with an engineer stamp and shearing loads, the size and spacing of fasteners called out are nails, always. They are still the industry standard.

And I do not always use screws but when I do, I use GRK brand.

They cost a fortune but I have evaluated their performance over the last 15 years and I wouldn't buy anything else.

As much as Hubby adores screws, I have definitely observed what I've read - nails will bend rather than shear. So if a tornado goes through, a nailed house may get all bent outta shape, but a screwed house may collapse.

For outdoor applications in my climate, screws that can rust aren't any easier to get out than nails. For covered applications where there's a serious chance that it will need to be dismantled/rebuilt at some point, screws are worth the extra expense - a *lot* extra, as we go for stainless more and more.

As for cost-effective, if you're considered a "farm" (or someone you know is) there are some industrial fastener shops in the industrial area of the nearest big city that may not sell to you if you can't present a business card. We print our own, so the cost isn't too big a deal. We print them on card stock and I cut them up with a paper cutter.

How many is a box?
What are you expecting to pay?
How much would galvanised nails cost you ?

Does your store sell them in bulk boxes?  25 lbs or 50 lbs at a time?  They are usually way cheaper that way.

1. Shop around. Prices vary wildly from store to store sometimes. Check online, too. And find the local pole barn supply.

2. Buy bulk. A 25 lb pail is about the same as 5-10 lbs in small containers.

3. Use the right screw. One large GRK or SPAX can replace a dozen smaller screws.

Never use deck screws for structure. STRUCTURAL screws are tougher and bend like nails instead of snapping off

I've become a convert to batten (purlin) screws. They are beefy, have decent shear strength, and use a 5mm hex drive. A bit spendy but quick and great for places that are awkward to nail.

When I started homesteading I decided to use one screw for all things on my place.  I hate wondering what size a torx is when I visit Wheaton Labs.  My go-to is the combination drive (square and phillips) at Menards.  I'm not sure if you have them in Texas but they are way better than Home Depot or Lowes (in my opinion).

I get 5 lb boxes of the 6 sizes I use and when a box gets light, I pick up another one.  A square drive is always in my driver and in a pinch I can work with a phillips screwdriver.

A 1 lb box is $10, a 5 lb box is $33, a 50 lb box is $240.  Plus another 11% off half the time.  Home Depot torx are $37.64

As said above though, most all residential construction is done with nails since you probably don't need to disassemble it regularly.

Most deck type screws are not code compliant for framing unless you are using the dedicated framing screws like the Grk ones from home Depot or other specifically listed as framing approved. The ardox nail is still king for framing. Cheap and easy. If I was using screws for framing I would go for the #10 screws and those grx are nice since they self tap in. All good fasteners are expensive though. Cheap screws tend to have low shear strength and the heads pop off or strip.
Cheers,  David

Nail gun fasteners are fast, cheap and strong.
They are not easily removed or reusable.
Since you have unlimited dimensional lumber, what makes removable/reusable fasteners important for your use?
If the place your are building  is only temporary, maybe build individual panels with nails and connect them to each other with screws?
Alternatively, just plan on SawzAlling through the nails when deconstruction is necessary.

I'm no carpenter, rather my construction train was as an electrician, so take everything I say with that in mind!

I've had good results using the "wrong" fasteners by using my electricians training which instructs us to "just use more"!
Seriously though,I've  built a strong pallet fence using a brad nailer.
It's what I had and it worked great attaching the 1/2” boards to the 2x4 structure.
In some places I chose to layer 1/2" boards 3 and 4 deep , to avoid using screws.
Brad nails are cheap enough that 20 of them can be less than one screw.

This idea might be entirely bootleg, but I often  drill a 1/4"  diameter hole  into a 2x piece of lumber, before using relatively short screws to affix the two pieces of wood.
This obviously reduces the amount of wood that's available to resist tear out, but in some situations, it matters less.
For example, when using a pair  2x4s to create a post, by sistering them together.
Half of that post is holding up a beam, the other half mostly for indexing, keeping the beam directly on top of the first half.

When I'm misusing sheet metal brackets to frame 2x4s with screws, I will use shorter screws less than 1 1/2" long, which saves money and keeps the screws from sticking out of the 2x.



I'm terrible with a hammer and nails, so when I need a nail in a particular spot, I like to drill a hole smaller than the nail itself, so I will drive it strait and true, but it's nice and tight, not wallering about in the hole.

Josh Hoffman wrote:And I do not always use screws but when I do, I use GRK brand.

They cost a fortune but I have evaluated their performance over the last 15 years and I wouldn't buy anything else.

I'm a new fan of the GRK brand.

I'm building a cabin-office with some home sawn lumber (true 2" x 6" and 4" x 6" etc. mostly hardwood made from discarded arborist trunks) and the nails I bought at the local store for simple framing can barely even penetrate the wood.  Even with a pilot hole, my nails still ended up bending.  So I went with structural GRK screws where appropriate.  

Thoughts I've thunk:
1) When the structure I am building eventually goes the way of the earth, these expensive fasteners will probably live on in another project as they are so beefy. They'll probably hold value better than the money that bought them, given inflation.

2) It is a two story structure and I intend on storing some water at elevation for gravity pressure.  So if my life or a kid's life climbing around or a customer's life is going to depend on my work and these fasteners, it's comforting knowing I can depend on quality.  

Match the fastener/design to your needs of course...

Considerations:
-Longevity - How long does it need to last in the elements?
-Durability - How much damage does it have to take from me or others?
-Safety - If and when it fails, what are the ramifications?
-Ease of install - How much time is it worth?  Speediness required?
-Ease of disassembly - If my system changes, is it modular or reconfigurable?
-Expense - How much financial capital is it worth?

Taking a step back, of course not everything needs to be built with dimensional lumber and expensive fasteners.  

Alternatives to expensive torx screws:
-other cheaper screws
-nails
-brads, pins
-wooden dowel
-wire, rope, cordage
-glue, tape, adhesive
-gravity or tension / locking design

A permaculture compost "bin" could be a pile on the ground, or a fancy criss crossing stackable board layout.

A shower could be a hose over a tree limb with vining plants.  But, yeah, dimensional lumber (especially free stuff) is certainly sturdy, convenient, and aesthetically pleasing, and sometimes the quality fasteners are totally worth it.

Everything's going up these days. Maybe buy em in bulk or hit up habitat restore if you have them in your area. If you have unlimited lumber maybe you could try making joinery to put lumber together. Like the Japanese or Germans and Amish do. If you have a rig, you can make wooden nails too.

And design them like a pins where you need a punch to take them out. You can make things however you want. You could easily make something that comes apart in parts or pieces like a puzzle.

If it's an outhouse or bathroom, focus on the bottom and top with screws, the rest you can make braces and even joints to tie them together, they won't go nowhere plus you can pull the screws or wood out later. Ie. Build it like a log, you can disassemble it easier etc.

Its always horses for courses, I dont think I can use only one style

Jay Angler wrote:- a *lot* extra, as we go for stainless more and more.

for sure I'm a fan of the stainless, lol, but no way am I ready to pay for those.   They do seem softer and more able to bend, but the brand I used for a deck once just seemed to be unnecessarily weak.   They were as expensive as heck already, the manufacturers coulda used a stronger grade of stainless.  I would be interested to know a brand of stainless that y'all feel has both toughness and flexibility.

David Baillie wrote:Most deck type screws are not code compliant for framing unless you are using the dedicated framing screws like the Grk ones from home Depot or other specifically listed as framing approved. The ardox nail is still king for framing. Cheap and easy. If I was using screws for framing I would go for the #10 screws and those grx are nice since they self tap in. All good fasteners are expensive though. Cheap screws tend to have low shear strength and the heads pop off or strip.
Cheers,  David

I'm glad I posted this, because I never thought about deck screws as not being appropriate for framing.   I've definitely noticed that they tend to snap rather than bend in a failure situation ... just hadn't put 2 & 2 together on that, so thanks!

I've come across a couple of the grk screws, yeah they're nice.   I guess I'm gonna have to buy a whole box or two on the next project.

Thanks for you're reply!

The Project Farm Channel did some nice comparative testing between various fasteners.
While itt's billed as shear testing, some of the  comments suggest it is not, but is still useful data.

Might be a moot point, but here is a good screw at a decent price.  I buy the monster box for a better price of course

They can't be used with PT wood , just interior use