growing a million calories on an acre, the first year, starting with dirt

I would think this would need to be tailored to a single country/specific climate initially.
Then perhaps expanded by country/region/growing zone later?

Perhaps MORE effective would be to pay nominal sums/credits (would seed Companies step up?) to compensate for tracking and verifying methodology so that hundreds all over could participate.

Perhaps use those at the "LAB" for "controls" for more in depth/accurate side by side comparisons. This could allow for say hugleculture, hydroponic, "bare earth" and other "forms" of gardening to be compared with the goal to determine productivity, water use, fertilizer use etc. If the "control groups" (at the LAB) were "paid" at a flat/higher rate, regardless of results, one would have a multi use resource base; the control groups and then the hundreds of other "shadow" participants - the goal would remain the same; the million calories challenge.

My concern is when something is massively incentivized it becomes a "contest" potentially leading to conscious or unconscious "cheating"; sadly greed can corrupt the most genuine idea. I also have concerns of the financial harm that could befall someone whose methods may be more cash heavy upfront projects relying on "hope" that a "win" would offset these otherwise "unaffordable" expenses.

By eliminating vast sums of money and instead utilizing more modest rewards for many (again, allowing for 'control' acres at the Lab that would be more extensively monitored and compensated) one would allow for side by side comparisons on the "success" of various methods (based on time to build, maintain and harvest), the environmental impact (water use, fertilizer types), and ease of implementation.

With the detailed and monitored information from Lab participants mirrored by hundreds of others would produce much more than a "million calorie challenge". It would produce detailed financial and environmental cost analysis for both traditional and non traditional farming/gardening methods that could be clearly, easily and scientifically proven and understood.

This could be the source of an extensive library of books/videos/classes that could be both financially and educationally extremely beneficial - long term.

Just playing "Devils Advocate", and monkeying with a brilliant idea!

If you want good gardeners you're going to have to pay, they have to pay not only to live but also to keep up whatever they are leaving behind, If one went with the token money idea you would get enthusiastic amateurs which isn't what I feel this study is after.

For example While i have 0 experience in the climate these trials are to be conducted in I am fairly experienced in my climate and grow large amounts of food organically for sale. To get me away from my land for an entire season would cost. I would lose an entire years worth of income, my part time job and would have a huge amount of catching up to do the following year, the pest and weed pressure after a year off would be horrific. I expect that most experienced gardeners are going to be in similar positions with many worse off as they have families to consider as well.


I wonder if it might be an idea to find the gardeners first and then if you can find people who you consider up to your standards start thinking about funding (possibly sponsorship?) then.

What if you were "telecommuting gardening" with someone to do the physical work while you direct their work remotely over videoconference?  say, a boot who or team of boots who are willing to follow directions impersonally and with detachment, for the sake of objectivity?  how many hours a week could you spare to direct a person remotely to do the implementation?  in your view, how much of "good gardener" is knowledge and ability to observe and respond to issues?  

Skandi Rogers wrote:If you want good gardeners you're going to have to pay, they have to pay not only to live but also to keep up whatever they are leaving behind, If one went with the token money idea you would get enthusiastic amateurs which isn't what I feel this study is after.

For example While i have 0 experience in the climate these trials are to be conducted in I am fairly experienced in my climate and grow large amounts of food organically for sale. To get me away from my land for an entire season would cost. I would lose an entire years worth of income, my part time job and would have a huge amount of catching up to do the following year, the pest and weed pressure after a year off would be horrific. I expect that most experienced gardeners are going to be in similar positions with many worse off as they have families to consider as well.


I wonder if it might be an idea to find the gardeners first and then if you can find people who you consider up to your standards start thinking about funding (possibly sponsorship?) then.

maybe for an apples-to-apples comparison it's better to have 5 lousy gardeners compete, or 5 average gardeners, and see which _method_ gets the best yield in the hands of a lousy gardener. . .might be less glamorous but more informative for kickstarter supporters who may be beginning their gardening journey and looking for the best aid to the task.
 

Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:What if you were "telecommuting gardening" with someone to do the physical work while you direct their work remotely over videoconference?  say, a boot who or team of boots who are willing to follow directions impersonally and with detachment, for the sake of objectivity?  how many hours a week could you spare to direct a person remotely to do the implementation?  in your view, how much of "good gardener" is knowledge and ability to observe and respond to issues?  

I don't think I personally could do that. I react to what I see and feel rather than following a formula. I could instruct someone to set out a garden but how do you explain what a plant looks like when it's not growing as well as it should, it's often just a tiny colour difference or being slightly smaller than I feel it should be at that point, that's not something I could do over over video. Problems would be much harder to spot early on and correct.
Another issue would be time. Gardening is a 70hour a week project in high season, I personally do not have time to think about another garden especially one I am not familiar with.

There would also be an unfairness issue, if your boot was a fairly good gardener and did spot issues and bring them to your attention, or did something about it on days you were not speaking to them you would get a big advantage over another gardener who had a less experienced helper.



I can see the argument for having experienced people in, it will (probably) make the end calories higher, and make the entire thing seem easier and more successful to people looking at it.  I can also see the idea of beginners But to make it work they would need someone helping with experience we've all tried to start a garden that was to big for us and we know how that goes! I expect the drop out rate would be higher with the unexperienced and that may totally ruin the project.

paul wheaton wrote:So at $2451 per month, it would be perfectly average.

7 months.  5 gardeners.    $85,785.

The earlier point of a gardener having to upset their life wherever they are now is a good point.  So the pay would need to be higher.  

Suppose the pay is $3500 per month.  That's $24,500 for the seven months.  $122,500 for all five.

At the same time, if five people are being paid this much, I think there needs to be a full time person to make sure these people are actually doing the work.  A manager.  $3500 per month, but with the first month being january and the last month being december.  12 months adds up to $42,000.

And the videographer would be $42,000 also.  

We are now well over $200,000.  

paul wheaton wrote:It seems that there are probably 20 staple crops that need to be grown.  In both the quarter acre and the rest of the acres.  And probably some minimal amounts of calories for those.

Tomatoes, zukes, winter squash, grain, corn, potatoes, peas, beans, cole crops, daikon, lettuce, carrots, cukes, peppers, onions, melons ...

Maybe we need to start building the list of "the 20 crops" complete with minimal calories.  Both for the quarter acre, and for the 3/4 acre.  

Maybe, in the end, we say something like "16 of the 20" or "14 of the 16"?

paul wheaton wrote:Suppose the pay is $3500 per month.  That's $24,500 for the seven months.  $122,500 for all five.

At the same time, if five people are being paid this much, I think there needs to be a full time person to make sure these people are actually doing the work.  A manager.  $3500 per month, but with the first month being january and the last month being december.  12 months adds up to $42,000.

And the videographer would be $42,000 also.  

Another thing to do is to somehow put up job offers.  Start building a list of candidates for these positions. So that way when we do the kickstarter, we know that we have at least 100 candidates to choose from.  

paul wheaton wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:It seems that there are probably 20 staple crops that need to be grown.  In both the quarter acre and the rest of the acres.  And probably some minimal amounts of calories for those.

Tomatoes, zukes, winter squash, grain, corn, potatoes, peas, beans, cole crops, daikon, lettuce, carrots, cukes, peppers, onions, melons ...

Maybe we need to start building the list of "the 20 crops" complete with minimal calories.  Both for the quarter acre, and for the 3/4 acre.  

Maybe, in the end, we say something like "16 of the 20" or "14 of the 16"?

I think that's an excellent idea, that way when something goes wrong, like you get 0 squash because none germinate you would still be able to make it up elsewhere.

Hmmm, to do this without goats or off-lab inputs, my first thought is "how many lbs of potatoes can you get out of the unammended soil per unit area, and how many yards of hot composted leaf litter are going to be required to push this to the million calorie mark?

2nd thought; make it more difficult and more palatable/nutritious by saying beans, corn and squash must each be at least 15% of the calorie count.  I'd love to see someone make some corn out of timberland soil mixed with pine/fir needle compost and some locally sourced moondust...seems like it's otherwise impossible without moondust (or 3+ years.)

3rd; you'd have to make your (6-12 yard?) mountain of lab-sourced input compost in the early fall, the year before.  Remember to triple it for the approximate volume of raw leaf input  (Haha.)

4: how many hours is it going to take to make this mountain of material?.... or maybe you could go around the lab collecting every little pocket of rich soil you can find?...sounds like too much work in any case.  Maybe if it was a nice house or property as a prize, like 300,000$, you'd get a lot of people willing to throw a year of hard labor at this.

5. Reading (approximately) "I'd do goats"  from experience that walked the lab, and "no #2s," it seems like goats and Allan Savory is the most viable option for kickstarting lab production without inputs...without inputs other than goats and their pile of approved poop!

6.  You could have one control group put 2-8 inches of topsoil on top of a concrete slab set 8" underground to approximate what it's like to try and heal some hardpan (haha.)

7.  A more serious control would be to have everyone using the same strains of plants, otherwise there would be no telling if it's the garden method or the plant gene madness making a difference.

8.  Another control is a precise definition of "dirt."  Based on the variability often seen in 2 to 5 acres, different spots on the lab are not equal.  Like might it turn out there is precisely 1.6 acres of already existing 6 inch chocolate cake.

A great experiment indeed, maybe you could get Discovery or something to bite on this for a cool half mil grand prize.  Then you could really vet some talent. Aside from being able to dig up 3 or more inches of already existing chocolate cake on a site to be garden, Ima bet only the best of the best would have a chance at this without goats on acreage.  Or maybe there is already chocolate cake to go around at the lab!  

As someone who has taken virgin pine timberland and tried to make an herb and vegetable garden, I can say that the yield the first year will likely be dismal. We built hugel gardens using all existing wood and soil from the property and the first year the greens did very well, so did many of the herbs. Others, not so much.

This last year we grew corn (Lofthouse variety so I know it's good) on a new 2' built up hugel bed with minimal inputs other than some kitchen scraps and pee. Out of a 20 sq. ft section of the bed we planted with corn we harvested....about 2 cups of dried corn. Only a few stalks actually produced something that ripened. We've kept those and will replant next year. We actually felt sad about the poor plants. They tried so hard. They were stunted but not chlorotic. All biomass was cut up and put back onto the bed to be re-absorbed for next years growth. *Edit* We watered these beds regularly since they were our production garden. The main lack was nutrients.

Even the green beans were chlorotic from lack of nitrogen and we got about a cup of them. On the other hand, our potatoes were very good. Tomatoes were crappy and they would NOT ripen on the vine. Others in our area have had this problem so it may been that long stretch of 100+F days that stressed out the plants. Radishes and carrots did very well. Beets did very well, and with those you get tops and roots for food. Rutabagas did well, and they had the most mild, tender greens we've ever tasted, which was a surprise. Turnips did well.

So essentially, anything that is a heavy feeder will likely suffer the first year, which is not surprising. They will likely not do great the second year without some green manure or other nitrogen inputs. Pee alone from one person won't do it, even if you drink a lot of water... The beds that were 1 year older produced better because the buried wood was breaking down, but needed more nitrogen than mulching would provide. We don't have animals yet so the inputs were minimal.

I'm not tossing cold water on this idea because I think it would be a great experiment. But building soil takes time. In many ways our garden exceeded our expectations considering the conditions, but it is not like our old garden that had soil we had nurtured for 24 years.

I may have missed it but will the gardeners be able to pick out their acre themselves so any luck of the draw is of their own doing? Or better, is there a spot big enough where attributes, as in soil condition, current plant cover, sun exposure and so on are the same so that everyone starts out even in that regard?

Here in last several years I have started from scratch on two gardens, one less that 1/4 acre and one about 3/4 acer. The small one is mine and started with a grove of black locust trees which had to be cut. It's on a slight slope so logs were used to make small terraces. Stumps prevented use of a tiller so it was no-till from the get go. Corn and beans did very well. tomatoes and melons produced but not as well, probably because they were too close to the edges in the root zone and shade of other trees.

The bigger one was borrowed from the neighbor and was relatively flat and in full sun. It was pasture that had been abandoned 50 years ago but occasionally mowed for hay over the years and completely abandoned for about five years. With considerable effort I was able to use the tiller in it. Corn, melons, okra, tomatoes all did very, very well there. Well, until the squirrels arrived in mass to dine on it, still I got a decent harvest. That was a fantastic garden but I didn't want to go to the expense and effort of protecting it from the squirrels, deer and rabbits so it's abandoned again.

I have no clue what gardening is like in Montanna but I do know that not all acres are created equal even if they are close together.

If the plots are not exactly the same how about using the medieval 3 field system so each gardener gets part of each field, that way the advantages and disadvantages of each plot are equally shared.

Reading some of the previous comments I can see how different my conditions are, here you get a brilliant first year yield from most crops, it drops off after that if you don't add amendments. The only issues with first year potatoes are pests.

Kickstarter "rewards" ....

A new one hour episode every two weeks?  Starting around mid-march.  So a total of 16 episodes?   To get the final 16 hours when it is all done could be something like ...  $65?   Does that sound like a decent price?  People can get a new movie for $20 ...    How much is a season of game of thrones shortly after they release the final show of the season?  Maybe $40?  And that is for 8 one hour episodes.  

So maybe $65 during the kickstarter and $80 after the kickstarter.  


During the kickstarter, people could pay $100 to get the episodes as they come out.  ??

Maybe $200 to have some level of interaction during the year?  


$250,000 at $65 per person ....    I would need 3846 backers.  But the most I have ever had was 2768 backers.

$250,000 at $100 per person ...  2500 backers.  


Suggestions?

Is it just me, or does this seem like it has grown into a lot of money to invest in an idea that has not really been tested at this sort of scale?

I think people have brought up good points about the difficulty of actually recruiting experienced farmers. Most of the people who would be ideal probably cant walk away from their farms to go spend a year starting from scratch in a completely new climate.

Also, the points about how much time and energy is needed for soil building I think is valid. If the soil is going to be built up using only local inputs, then my quick napkin math goes something like this: 43560sq ft in an acre means 3630cu ft for a 1" coverage or about 134 cu yards of compost to cover an acre in 1" of compost. Assuming compost shrinks to about half its volume, you would need to start with 268 cubic YARDS of compostable plant matter. This would fill 25 dump truck loads. And that is per acre, per inch. Unless the soil is pretty good already, I question if an inch is going to cut it. So to put 3 inches of compost on 5 acres you would need to harvest, haul, pile, turn, and water 375 dump truck loads of weeds. You would then need to distribute 187 dump truck loads of compost. And the proposal is that 5 people will do this work, while also removing 5 acres of sod/tree roots, and then planting an acre of crops?

I think it sounds like a very interesting idea, but it would be depressing to watch a bunch of gardening experts fail because they were given a task that was just impossible for a single person to do in one season.

I still think a smaller-scale pilot project would be in order to prove the concept before launching into a full 5 acres. I also think you would bring in a lot more viewers if videos were put up on youtube for anyone to watch - then you could tap into a much larger audience to finance a more ambitious test down the road. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

I think that the first hurdle would be the logistics of fencing and water supply. The length of deer fence to protect 5 acres would be roughly 2000 feet if the plots are contiguous, or 4000 feet for isolated plots. Assuming junkpole construction, the logistics for fencing include availability and proximity of suitable timber and the labor and equipment needs for harvesting and transport of materials to each site before construction can proceed.  

Water logistics include volume required, distance to water source and method of transport. If the original idea is to allow extensive irrigation of the quarter-acre "conventional" plots, the project needs sufficient gallons/day to provide heavy watering of 1.25 acres and intermittent watering of the remaining 3.75 acres over the full growing season.

A few important things ....

thing-277:  for every way there is to get this to work, there are at least a thousand ways to get it to fail.  Hence the need for gardeners with experience. Yes, there are challenges.  Hence the pay.  

thing-278:  for every outline for a plan, there can easily be a few billion other plans.  Other locations.  Other sizes.  Different challenges. Different goals.  Each will have their points to consider.  I already have a dozen alternative ideas - but I do need to limit myself to one.

thing-279:  putting it on youtube might have more viewers.  It might have less.  Some of me youtube videos that I thing are really powerful, don't even have a thousand views.  And a few of my others have more than a million.  My kickstarter for putting something up on youtube made $1100.  My first kickstarter for a dvd that would be viewable only by people that paid brought in $105,000.   If we are exploring that professionals will be paid, then we will need more than $1100.
 

What happens to the calories themselves? The food. One million K calories is 137% of a 2000 K calorie diet for an entire year. (Over the proposed 7 active months it's 235%)
The yield is weighted more towards the end of the season... so not enough to feed even the farmers at the start, and an abundance at the end. Theoretically, you will have food for seven for an entire year, just not all of it all the time... (also assuming no other groceries; meat, dairy, eggs, bread... to make it all into meals).

So, this has a monetary value in "replacement cost" as groceries. How does this impact the "Lab's operating budget" if the KS monies were to only cover the "costs/wages" for those in the "experiment" (5 contestants, videographer, manager, seeds? electric for well?).
If the harvests were logged in daily? by the manager, and then the food was then eaten by the farmers, the Boots, or preserved for later... Another option would be farmer's market, or CSA, but seems to be unnecessary expenses in time, fuel, fees, etc... with mouths to feed.

Harvest weigh-ins could be a good video segment.
Boot mealtime reactions to the food?
Some canning, drying, or other processing segments?
You may need a root cellar ready to receive a big harvest at the end, if you don't already have one...

So change the kickstarter and the plan.  The kickstarter should be to make the movie.   Then have 10000 volunteers try it and document their year with videos from go pros or phones.     The video would then be sent in to the video editors and they'd pick the best five or ten examples to make the movie.    So the people doing it would need to be :  1) great at permiculture, 2) great videographers, and 3) have a great story.   That's probably the hardest part, finding enough volunteers.   The funding would be just for the video editing team.

I'd love to see if I could grow a million calories on an acre and document it.   I think I probably already have.   A million calories is only six bushels of corn.   All the potatoes and most of the produce we eat came from our garden.    Hmm, the more I think about this and do the math,  a million calories is easy for a family of six.   Now the question is can you do it just on an acre and document it.    

This sounds to me like it might work best as a slightly modified version of ANT village - set up multiple 1.5 acre plots, one acre for the garden competition, and a half acre for wofati living space, outdoor workspace, woodlot, composting toilet, animal space, etc.

Three Grand Prize categories:
1. Garden Calories competition;
2. Most functional/complete wofati,
3. Most functional/productive/well-rounded homestead overall.

2nd place prize: entry fee/ANT Village buy-in fee refunded for the first year.

All competitors film their own progress, and videographer cuts them together, along with commentary/results footage of Paul.

Sounds like the Permaculture version of Top Chef mixed with Cabin Masters - could be a fun Youtube show!  

Barry Nicholson wrote:
I'd love to see if I could grow a million calories on an acre and document it.   I think I probably already have.   A million calories is only six bushels of corn.   All the potatoes and most of the produce we eat came from our garden.    Hmm, the more I think about this and do the math,  a million calories is easy for a family of six.   Now the question is can you do it just on an acre and document it.    

I would love to have a reason to document something like this, though on half an acre, I KNOW I cannot manage an acre alone I do half an acre at the moment, and in my climate with a 4 -5 month growing season 1 million calories is perfectly possible, even without growing all potatoes. Since this is a year challenge it would all need to be annuals any my lovely established apple/plum trees could not be counted. I even have 1/4 of an acre of "fresh" land it was horse pasture for 30+ years and is right now under plastic to kill the turf, thistles, docks etc.

Maybe whatever the decision on this kickstarter we should make a group to document what can be done on one acre or less.

What if we had a way to visually record the evidence (such as an app), and log relevant measurements (such as ph, sunlight hours, rainfall, manual watering, soil type)....then use AI to suggest ways to improve overall yield.....

OK, here's another thought--the "Implementors" get rotated from garden to garden each week, and get the same (poor) quality of remote supervisory support each week.  And none during the Supervisor's heaviest work season, so it's fair.  Basically, it's a competition of who can be the best teacher as well as whose method is best.

The secondary yield from this is that the Implementors each will have experience in growing 5 different kinds of gardens, and knowing intimately the strengths and weaknesses of each approach and each gardener's way of gardening.

(In fact, it's a little like one aspect of the "paired programming" practice Paul described in one of the podcasts, from the computer world, in terms of the rotation of roles so more people learn.  And increasing beneficial relationships is a permaculture principle.).  

A stumbling block is that the gardeners will need a place to live that they consider habitable.  Tastes vary when it comes to this.  A permaculturist would consider the Cooper Cabin luxuriant, but  other people might consider it "roughing it."  E.g., I don't know if it has plumbing yet? or electricity?  And this could tilt the field toward self-selecting candidates who are all permaculturists, rather than including a greater breadth of contestants.  (Maybe that's OK? I was understanding the initial idea as being a comparison of "organic" versus hugelkultur vs. a different non-hugelkultur permaculture approach, I forget now the exact aim of the test.). Maybe the costs for renting some housing facilities would have to be factored in, or at least some extra photovoltaics and plumbing.  Which again suggests turning things back in the direction of having Boots or other people already on the lab be the Implementors standing in for different gardeners.

If it's all homesteading type people then maybe it'll be fine.

--
What counts as a seed? let's say I put in the ground 500 lbs of sunchokes (= about 200,000 calories) and they all multiple to ten times their weight, that's not really that impressive.  There needs to be a calorie count before and after, and all seeds have to be measured and in before the starting line.

Can you use some electricity for tools or only hand tools?  is there a watt-hour limit? can it be measured and deducted from your calorie count?

Who eats the food at the end of the season, or during it so it doesn't spoil? how will it be measured securely (no double-measuring your potatoes!)?

To make sure there are no gmo's, maybe all the seed options should be pre-purchased by the Lab or the Manager, and you get to select varieties but not sources of seed. . .or is that an essential part of the gardener's toolbox?

Are you allowed to plant trees as part of your garden?

--

The more I think about this as a _permaculture_ contest rather than a simple calorie contest, the more I like the idea of the 8-year contest.

And even if there could be a meta-contest, comparing several contestant's local plots in their respective areas with what is a typical yield in their area, from industrial agriculture, or from commercial gardens.  A meta-contest isn't quite as flashy but it would get a winner sooner, and can compare older gardens/food forests.  (A challenge with this idea is that they have to be measured at the same age, though).

To be clear, I'm not trying to oppose the idea or make things more complicated, I'm just poking at it from all different angles to try to prevent unwanted comedy down the road and see if there are secondary yields that can be captured.

Skandi Rogers wrote:

Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:What if you were "telecommuting gardening" with someone to do the physical work while you direct their work remotely over videoconference?  say, a boot who or team of boots who are willing to follow directions impersonally and with detachment, for the sake of objectivity?  how many hours a week could you spare to direct a person remotely to do the implementation?  in your view, how much of "good gardener" is knowledge and ability to observe and respond to issues?  
--

One more idea, what if instead of a contest against other contestants it could be a cooperative contest? (because i like things where everyone wins).  A team of the best gardeners has to work together to make a million net calories. They can accept ideas from anyone in the world, dial three friends for a hint (including, say, Sepp Holzer with translation, Willie Smits, and Machaelle Small Wright who will probably just say go figure it out for yourself, but hey).  They can get hints from permies.  Kickstarter backers can get a vote in the direction of things.  If the million calorie challenge is successful, the prize is divided according to each person's contribution in some way, or given to charity...this might be too many chefs in the kitchen, but maybe with a "wisdom of crowds" quick voting procedure, like they have in that game show, the team still has a decision set for them to give clear direction.  

Maybe I'm off topic now, but take what's helpful and leave the rest.

I don't think I personally could do that. I react to what I see and feel rather than following a formula. I could instruct someone to set out a garden but how do you explain what a plant looks like when it's not growing as well as it should, it's often just a tiny colour difference or being slightly smaller than I feel it should be at that point, that's not something I could do over over video. Problems would be much harder to spot early on and correct.
Another issue would be time. Gardening is a 70hour a week project in high season, I personally do not have time to think about another garden especially one I am not familiar with.

There would also be an unfairness issue, if your boot was a fairly good gardener and did spot issues and bring them to your attention, or did something about it on days you were not speaking to them you would get a big advantage over another gardener who had a less experienced helper.



I can see the argument for having experienced people in, it will (probably) make the end calories higher, and make the entire thing seem easier and more successful to people looking at it.  I can also see the idea of beginners But to make it work they would need someone helping with experience we've all tried to start a garden that was to big for us and we know how that goes! I expect the drop out rate would be higher with the unexperienced and that may totally ruin the project.

I'd like to interject something before Paul's head explodes from all the ideas coming his way. As a retired project manager, much of what I'm seeing is called "scope creep." In itself it's not bad to brainstorm, and in fact brainstorming is a lot of fun, but the fact is that there will be a budget for this project. And the money will be coming from donors. And the current estimate is already over $120k for just the basics of labor, not even counting tests, lodging, or whatever else people want to see.

From what I see, if the project becomes too complicated, it will be harder to succeed. All projects tend to expand as they progress and it's a very hard thing to keep costs under control. As much as I'd love to see lots of testing, data acquisition, number crunching and all that fun, the fact is that this sort of thing is expensive.

Well dang, I was about to suggest a chairlift to give visitors an aerial tour of the plots before arriving at the rotating wofati-restaurant atop the volcano.

Someone mentioned seed companies a ways back and that got me thinking... what if we asked a different seed company to sponsor each gardener? They would supply the seeds and a portion of the gardeners pay in exchange for the gardener wearing their shirt all summer or something, and that way the kickstarter goal could be lowered to a much more achievable level.

"Someone mentioned seed companies a ways back and that got me thinking..."

That was myself - and along with your expansion:

How about "hardware" suppliers for tools (shovels, weeders, hoes, spreaders...); irrigation Co.'s for their goods and all the bits and bobs that would be needed? I would think they would jump at the opportunity to showcase their products. OF course these would be as permie friendly as possible - we have enough forums touting various favorite ______ (insert boot, gloves, seeds, trowels etc.) items, perhaps approaching them would be worthwhile?

If not willing to offer up straight cash, perhaps their products could be donated or used as payment or prizes to gardeners?  

I get that this may be "too close" to actual sponsorship and MAY well not be the route Paul is comfortable with due to concerns this could/would taint the process.

Lorinne Anderson wrote:MAY well not be the route Paul is comfortable with due to concerns this could/would taint the process.

Yeah there probably should be some sort of contract stating that the sponsoring company has no say in how the experiment is done.

Hi. Annelle Here, from South Africa.

My '2-cents worth' >> also add into the calculation how much financial input was invested into the setting up of each plot. ie: "greenhouse" or chicken coop/ shade house structure. Animals bought (I'd definitely add in ducks > their poop is MAGIC!

Some people would of course source more costly mulch or non-local materials to build structures for growing taller crop varieties. Some seeds would cost a lot less, some plots could grow their own mulch ( like tagasaste is a fast-growing mulch plant). etc.

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A

Well, I do like experiments and challenges. Especially to watch them on videos.

This experiment will be good to show skeptics that it's possible to have a good yield of calories from non-conventional agriculture.

But there are reasons why I would not want to support this challenge. From my point of view this can not be Permaculture. This challenge is all about calories in a year, so it's about growing only annuals. Permaculture has to do with the long term ('permanent'). The first years the perennials, bushes and trees will not yet give the best yield; that will take more time.
And ... it is not only 'calories' that make nutrition. What about minerals and vitamins?
And, as I see it, Permaculture is not about cleaning a plot to 'bare dirt' and then starting to garden. One of the principles is to use what there is ...

Wow, my 2 cents worth is this could be a very exciting project, with far reaching results.  Play your cards right on the video side, and you could get a TV series out of it!

Ground rules to make things equal for everyone will be important, so having to grow certain crops, with a choice of what extra is grown.

What about only allowing a certain number of people on the land, if one team brings in their mates to help clear and establish that gives them an advantage over the him n her only team?

I think it would be excellent to say they need to rear at least one form of livestock, and feed is from the 1 acre of land only.  So either rabbits, chickens or whatever, to provide for fertilizer, land management and making use of veg scraps - but the meat or produce does not count towards calories.

I also agree with you Paul, that it should start in January.  Setting out the area, fences, shed to hold tools, building animal shelters etc.  But also allowing time to decide what goes where, before turning the first sod.  Jumping in with a race against planting time will allow for mistakes on where things are placed.

As far as funding goes, if you can choose your contestants well in advance, they could also try to get sponsorship for their year "on the farm" ... maybe  from heirloom seed suppliers or other businesses involved in gardening/farming/permaculture.

Would the teams be permitted to actually live on their land? nothing more than a small cob hut/roundhouse dwelling but then you could include how they actually cook and eat their home grown produce as well!

Loads more video opportunities there, building a basic dwelling, setting out the land, animal enclosures, daily living and challenges, battling wildlife for who gets the first lettuce leaf

trish beebe wrote:Wow, my 2 cents worth is this could be a very exciting project, with far reaching results.  Play your cards right on the video side, and you could get a TV series out of it!

Ground rules to make things equal for everyone will be important, so having to grow certain crops, with a choice of what extra is grown.

What about only allowing a certain number of people on the land, if one team brings in their mates to help clear and establish that gives them an advantage over the him n her only team?

I think it would be excellent to say they need to rear at least one form of livestock, and feed is from the 1 acre of land only.  So either rabbits, chickens or whatever, to provide for fertilizer, land management and making use of veg scraps - but the meat or produce does not count towards calories.

I also agree with you Paul, that it should start in January.  Setting out the area, fences, shed to hold tools, building animal shelters etc.  But also allowing time to decide what goes where, before turning the first sod.  Jumping in with a race against planting time will allow for mistakes on where things are placed.

As far as funding goes, if you can choose your contestants well in advance, they could also try to get sponsorship for their year "on the farm" ... maybe  from heirloom seed suppliers or other businesses involved in gardening/farming/permaculture.

Would the teams be permitted to actually live on their land? nothing more than a small cob hut/roundhouse dwelling but then you could include how they actually cook and eat their home grown produce as well!

Loads more video opportunities there, building a basic dwelling, setting out the land, animal enclosures, daily living and challenges, battling wildlife for who gets the first lettuce leaf

Additionally -

If it is a five year cycle that you're suggesting Paul, and with the above in mind, maybe the first year, they can be part of LIFE on the LAB community (whatever that is - I have no idea what this is. Maybe someone can post a link if there is some description material or videos that DESCRIBE WHAT HAPPENS. Not just the projects but what is LIFE on a day to day basis? Do 10 people live there? or 110? at any one time? or fluctuates with courses, and weekend workshops or whatever is the go?)

So the first year housing and meals etc are allowed at the Lab or community. Then they can set themselves up, observe the seasons and lay of the land better, then make some regrettable mistakes for them and the next folk who will live or work the land there.

One exiting..... ensure you have a 6-12 month reintegration/departure style phase as part of their 5th year. Where they are to rest (from the land a little MAYBE) while they are separating and  moving into returning home or reestablishing home or taking over someone else's homestead or whatever the possibilities are for them.

And DURING the 5yrs, how do you keep it a healthy non-competative competition.
What are the values of working towards the goals which include the monetary gain on completion if they succeed.
(OH and what if they all succeed.... FUNDS for 5 winners?)
Or can only one win? - if it is the latter, then how to keep if focused that its the skills and learning about the projects and personal development, team work where needed, and love they neighbour e.g. the other competators.
Otherwise it could be a miserable 5yrs for those competing with a personality that has to win.

What are the conditions and support will they need.
In terms of funding their own needs, e.g. fund raising.
Maybe that fund raising needs to be more specific.
IF it is a given that there is no electricity on the sites, then they need to fund raise for their solar batteries kit and catchment devices.
OR some other essential for charging or using electric drills to build etc.
Maybe a set specifications for size of battery and collectors, converter etc.

Or, maybe for their housing, that could be a project for other schools you run. That they provide the housing for this, so that the new arrivals have a place to lay their head, while their head is working overtime with planning and design and the labour each day.

That means to be kind to the folk who will participate, the best orientation for the house on the site is necessary, and you dont want all fields to be beside each other surely. Or do you/

If so, then the houses need to be private so they are not looking on each other but have freedom to engage or freedom to be separate.

Now you could have a battering type skill set between them by the 2nd year maybe.
Where they "hire' each other if they want a job done that they know the other person does, but they barter for something in return.
This is a great community building skill that may enhance the experience.

Take as a grain of salt or let some of it be preserved by that salt to enhance what you are perceiving may be a potential new venture.

Here is a video of mine from a long time ago:



In the video, the key is how much food can you grow without external inputs.  The answer is that with a quarter of an acre, with a LOT of work, in about five years, you could get to the point that might possibly grow enough to feed a small person.  And with a full acre, you can grow enough food for one person ....  eventually it could possibly be with zero effort.

The amount of food for one person for one year is roughly a million calories.  

Can you use some electricity for tools or only hand tools?

Can you give me an idea of where you think somebody would use a powerful electric tool to help with gardening?