Did you just "should" on me?

Ross Hunter wrote:How ironic, a thread about "should", telling you what words you shouldn't use.

This thread makes me think about the swearing thread and the three types of hearer listed.

The fearful, The apathetic and the gigglers.




For me, I see "Should" as a suggestion, You can call me one of the apathetic, I'm not offended by the insinuation that someone knows more than me and believes they have the right and/or ability to dictate my behaviour. I'm confident enough to tell them to fuck off if it comes to the point of needing to.

Conflict exists, just because it is not necessarily the most effective or constructive way to handle things, if someone tries to dictate something to me that I disagree with, I have no problems with provoking conflict in refusing said instruction.



Just like Paul sees no reason to stop using ripe language because some fearful wussies shy away from the words, I see no reason to refrain from using Should, if those who are so unconfident and fearful of conflict that they would do something against their will just because someone uses one word instead of another word, well, those sheeple do not have enough self confidence, self esteem or personal feeling of self worth!




I would use rather stronger language to make the point, but I was advised that violated a forum rule about being nice. An example of a "Should" that I have no objection to following, since this IS a private forum, with moderators who DO have the power and right to issue injunctions along the line of "you SHOULD change this". BUT this is an example of being in someone elses space, abiding by Their wishes in Their (or His since the place is Pauls and Mods are merely Delegates, Think Angels with Paul as God) space take precedence over my wishes to present something in my own terms. Yet they would have no power if we were on My ground and they objected to something I was doing, insofar that such was not actually illegal by the laws of whichever land that might hypotheically be in.

How ironic, a thread about "should", telling you what words you shouldn't use.

Which is precisely why I started this thread with:

When I was a young man, I remember a woman telling me "you should never say 'should'". For an hour or two we explored this idea.

Being easily offended is not a good thing.

A good point.

I think there are a lot of people out there that have worked up a list of 683 things to be offended by. On that list is the word "should" and the word "fuck". And their default position is to be offended by anything they possibly can.

I can think of no reason in the world to be offended by "fuck". It boils down to a simple choice.

But when we are collectively trying to solve problems, I can see some validity to being offended by the word "should" - when used to suggest that somebody else do something. While I doubt I will ever curb my use of "fuck" - I could see myself using "should" less. In fact, I kinda see it as something of personal growth to be able to use "should" less. I think I will be a better me if I can pull it off. Especially with people I admire and respect.

On the other hand, I think if there is somebody that is a nasty piece of shit, I might find a bit of comedy in using "should" about ten times too much with them. I do think that there is something in the word that says "I am the master and you are the ignorant putz." So if I say it over and over and they don't object ... well, that meets my humor needs.

I think discussion about "should" is difficult enough without getting the whole "fuck" discussion going in this thread again. Here is the thread for fuck: https://permies.com/t/37252/md/Word

A long time ago, I got sideways with a French co-worker. She kept telling me "you have to X. You have to Y." I was pretty young and not super self-aware of the cultural challenges that come with these cultural and language barriers. Finally I figured it out and simply said, "Claire, in our culture, it will be easier if you form things as a question. 'When you're done with that, can you do X? And then Y?' " Now, she was my supervisor, so it didn't really matter whether she was telling me "you have to X" or "can you do X?" but having it phrased as a question immediately smoothed out our relationship. She wasn't trying to be rude; she was just trying to communicate. I only bring this up to point out that our hangups over "should" are a deep cultural thing that not everyone shares. I admit that I respond dramatically better to "have you thought about trying...?" than "you should." I interact with Germans fairly frequently and I have to remember that when they tell me "you should", they are just giving me useful information. The exact same words from a fellow American: don't tell me what to do!

I think it is a grammatical issue. and there are many words that can be misplaced or need to be used in conjunction with other words.
"Should" refers to a finalized decision. If I say "I should" or "You should" it means I have the knowledge and/or authority to direct a persons actions. If I say "Maybe you should", I am making a suggestion for the person to think about. If I say "people should never use plastic" I am saying I have analyzed all possibilities and there is never a necessity to use plastic.

"But" is another one of those words. You can spend 10 minutes praising a child's efforts, then say "but" and 1 minute critical analysis, everything before the "but" is nullified. only the criticism is remembered.

Most words have definite meanings and connotations, but they should be used with the proper placing and order.

Col. Knox, U.S.Army, (Ret.):
The word 'should' shall never be used in a direct order, as it is not a mandate, but rather a suggestion. If your troops fail to follow your suggestion, they cannot be disciplined for not obeying an order - they never received an order.

I have laughed and nodded as I scanned through the comments. I think of "should " as an expectation of results... if you fall from a high place without safety gear in place, you should expect to hit the ground. And that's about it.

I'm bumping this up after having to put a post on probation for declaring that anyone who doesn't farm the way they thought was right shouldn't farm at all.  The backlash was pretty overwhelming and I'm still reeling.  

Guys, if you use 'should' in a post and it gets put on probation for it, please just reword it rather than going on the rampage insulting everyone.  No-one's forcing you to be here, and if you behave like that no-one wants you here either.  

Just to confirm, is 'should' considered acceptable in the context of expected results? IE: if you do X, then Y should happen?

Cassie Langstraat wrote:

Ross Hunter wrote: Being easily offended is not a good thing.

I think it is important to keep in mind that everyone has a different level of sensitivity and that is okay. Some people are offended by things because it hurts them or it would hurt someone else and because of their high level of sensitivity and empathy, it hurts them. Just because you can't "understand such sensitivity" doesn't mean that it isn't a real thing for people and that they need to change so that you can understand them.

I think you are responding to something that was not said.
Saying that something is not good, is not the same as saying that something is bad. Neutral still exists

When I respond that way it is usually because my previous experiences have conditioned me to expect a negative experience is coming my way.
Could that be the case here?

Highly sensitive and empathic people can still choose to use words that cause short-term pain or discomfort.
That choice could have good and bad reasons.
One example of each:
"Using this common word in an inoffensive way and in a safe setting could desensitize my friend, making it easier for her to have conversations with people who are not aware of her sensibilities."
"The constant pressure of being surrounded by too many people with too many feelings is draining, so I will be a dick to make them leave me alone. (Also, I suck at communicating my wishes.)"

I have done versions of both and I think you should too.
(just kidding! you do you.)

Kyrt Ryder wrote:Just to confirm, is 'should' considered acceptable in the context of expected results? IE: if you do X, then Y should happen?

That would probably be OK - what we're aiming at is people not telling other people what they should and should not do.  I'm loath to give hard and fast rules though - there are far too many borderline cases and we have to make judgement calls on whether or not something might put people off, or if something that gets reported for being offensive is in fact ok.  It does my head in after a while trying to read everything through about thirty different filters and try to see everything from everyone's point of view.  

But yeah, that should (ha!) be ok, generally speaking.

First, there is only one rule on this site:  "be nice".   And then there are some .... guidelines?  "Guidelines" doesn't even seem to be accurate.  There are some attempts to share what I think "be nice" means - after all, I am the once that interprets the "be nice" rule.  

I think that the function of this thread is primarily to share some thoughts on what the word "should" means in our society.  And based on that, it could be used in a way that violates my idea of "be nice" - but that seems to be not so often.  

I think this bit of mental exercise about a word, helps me choose my own words better - by my standards.  And at the same time, if somebody "shoulds on me" then I might choose to give them the stink eye.  And once in a long while, somebody might write something containing the word "should" that makes it so that I don't want to publish it.

Recently, I've come across more and more people telling me the way the world should be, how other people should act, what the news should say... Ad nausea.  All this should is boring my socks off!

I want to say to them 'if you are so knowledgeable about how the world should be, then get out there and fix it'.  Only when I do this they tell me I should shut up.

My new approach is to silently count the number of shoulds they say in the conversation.
Zero shoulds, worth listening too.
One to two shoulds, possible interesting, I'll listen to the general theme of what they are saying
3 to 4 shoulds, start thinking about what's for dinner and if the weather is right for planting garlic while pretending to listen.
5 or more, walk away.

This thread and the forums in general continue to remind me how little i am.
i constantly find myself thinking, "i didn't know that" and how much of a student, in all things i am.
At other times i think, fuck that i'm fucking brilliant and awesome, i am, you SHOULD listen to me.
i think that sometimes the word "should" is very appropriate in some circumstances ie: you shouldn't poke the bear
or you SHOULD eat your peas
more recently i write stuff and i think why does anyone read this shit i write?
i then think why does anyone think that their time is worth spending here and i think yeah that's cool or not.
so i try to think that what i write is funny memorable and respectful of everyone and i shouldn't be mean, or nasty.
So I come up with these rules that i try to adhere to when i write/post something.

1)  who am i writing for you or me
2)  Am i trying to be mean, funny, witty,
3)  what is my point
4)  am i contributing or detracting
5)  what would my wife, mom, kids say if they read this
6)  what would future lorance say if he read this 5 years from now
7)  own what you say, asshole!
 and finally "if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all"

That's all i got to say on this matter.

Anyone else?

Thanks for reading this.

-l

lorance romero wrote:"should" is very appropriate in some circumstances ie: you SHOULD eat your peas

Nope.

You don't know that person's circumstances. They might be allergic to peas, or unable to grow them with access only to nasty chemag peas, or some other circumstance you couldn't know.

Excellent Point!

i SHOULD think before i write stupid stuff.

I've always seen "should" as advice, an option, rather than an order or demand. Maybe it's a cultural difference, but I've always found it odd how people are so touchy about any phrasing that could possibly be construed as an telling another what to do. And the possibly vitriolic response may accompany it.

That said, on the opposite end- I used the search function to check how often I actually use the word should on permies, and I think I'm pretty good at not should'ing people. Usually I use it in saying [this/that/they] should [work/be fine/do okay/be enough]. I hope that's an okay use of the word should? It doesn't seem to fall into the whole teaching someone problem.

My default is usually "you could". The only time I consciously use "I would" in order to avoid confrontation, is when saying what I would do when it comes to a medical situation.

paul wheaton wrote:If nothing else, please compare "I found a great article. You should read it." and "I found a great article." .... or "I found a great article. I think you would enjoy it."

This is interesting. The first option is what I would expect from someone, and I'm very likely to read it, especially if it's someone who's judgement I trust. It seems like a friendly invitation to me, like "We're having a party tonight. You should come." Not an order. The second, reminds me of the sideways manner of speaking often found in marketing/advertisement. Maybe it's specifically because people don't often use it that I find the wording odd, but then that's another problem.

I think one of the important things to remember in these types of discussions is the difference between verbal face-to-face conversations between people that know each other, and online conversations between people who don't know each other.

In face-to-face conversations there are many more things at play - body language, tone, inflection - but online we only have our words. And emoticons. I use emoticons because I have a sarcastic streak a mile wide, but I am also a pretty nice person and want to keep the conversation pleasant. I don't want what I say to get lost in someone else's discomfort in how I say it.

Yes, we sometimes may be overly 'aware' of the words that are used in the forums, but I think it is necessary in order to keep the conversations pleasant for everyone. Key word: everyone.

And that's all I have to say 'bout that.

This is my first read through this thread.  I love sharing and hearing ideas. But like so many others, I hate being told what to do, being lectured, or being criticized.  If I percieve some bit of advice is being forced on me, my brain rebels.  Doesn't matter how great or sound the idea is, I can't hear you if you talk down to me.

This is a good reminder to me to share my experience, and my ideas, not my advice.  I can happily share how I plant my bananas WITHOUT telling you how you ,"should" plant yours.  By sharing only my experience I have no vested interest in how you use that information.  If it was helpful, great.  If you found it to be rubbish, well no problem for me.  But if I advise you and you reject or criticise my advice, I might get offended.

Overall I love how people share their thoughts on this forum.  Kudos to the members who share their valuable experience, and thanks to the moderators who keep it safe and friendly.  Thanks for your work,!

I'm weary.

Last night I slept well (for once), and I'm not physically tired, I'm just weary of the "shoulds" flying around here.

Poor Paul has had to endure HOURS of "shoulds" from people who have only been here days or weeks. I'm not exaggerating. It's been literally hours. (Let alone all the 300-400 past visitors and residents over the last few years who have each had their own flavor of "shoulds." And this is only in meat space, not on the forums!!)

It's exhausting, and I'm only experiencing it peripherally.

For the record, each "should" is different, most are nothing new, and the "ideas"/"shoulds" do not solve the issues we are having.

Sigh.

This morning, in fact, I said with my out-loud voice, "you're should-ing on him (us)!" Then next phrase from the other person was "Well, you really outta...." Whoosh.

Fuckity-fuck-fuck. Why do these people not understand how exhausting it is?

I used to work for this presenter/trainer who spoke to large groups frequently. He loved hecklers. I was stunned! Then he explained that when a heckler is saying their uncomfortable things, the crowd sympathizes/empathizes with the speaker. Which means that after the heckler is finished, the crowd is more alert, engaged and listens to the speaker more enthusiastically. He felt a heckler was a gift. What a mind bender!

In our case, unfortunately, when folks see things that are not perfect here at wheaton labs, and if they commiserate and nitpick together with all these not helpful and not feasible "shoulds," it can get a bit poisonous. Akin to founder's syndrome and not as the heckler(s) they are. I want to shout, 'let's see you pay for that thing you think we "should" do/have/hire/fix/build. Good luck with that!'

Okay, I feel moderately better now from venting. If you read this diatribe, thanks for listening, as it were. I'm really trying my best to figure out how to 'level up' on this one to get us all out of the nitpick/criticism trenches.

Poor Paul has had to endure HOURS of "shoulds" from people who have only been here days or weeks. I'm not exaggerating. It's been literally hours. (Let alone all the 300-400 past visitors and residents over the last few years who have each had their own flavor of "shoulds." And this is only in meat space, not on the forums!!)

It's exhausting, and I'm only experiencing it peripherally.

For the record, each "should" is different, most are nothing new, and the "ideas"/"shoulds" do not solve the issues we are having.

Isn't that the case so many times when people don't know the whole story or the journey it took to get to where you are?  so sorry this is happening (still! again!)...I thought with so many reading here and listening to podcasts that that would be a thing of the past for the most part.

...and 'unsolicited' is the key word isn't it?  Unfortunately some folks just go through life looking for things to fix for other folks....based only on what they perceive through their own experiences and don't try too hard to understand the background for others choices first.....and then it takes so much energy to explain to someone the reason why one is doing it this way rather than that...or why that can't be done now, etc.

I tend to get defensive if someone jumps to a conclusion about how I am doing something, seemingly thinking that I've put no background thought into it at all....

this is kind of on my mind because we are living/gardening sort of in public now in this little town for the first time in more than forty years....we tried to look normal for the first year here and now I'm letting my permaculture flag fly....filling the yard with fruit and herbs with straw for mulch (no leaves available ) and pine log borders...while the yards in the neighborhood get mowed down to dust (we spent the first summer here having to tell three different neighbors that we didn't need help with the mowing, we liked it that way and still two of them came over and mowed like they were doing us a favor, one of them after dark!)....feeling a bit self conscious even though I know in just a few years we'll be harvesting fruit and they will still be mowing like crazy....

I hope you can find some way to resolve at least the current 'should-ers'....and a way to prevent it in the future?

I was the board chair of a non-profit with significant exposure to opinions on the internet.  This was very hard on my staff.

My mantra to my staff became "The Internet Does Not Get a Vote."  Feel free to borrow that if it is useful to you.  

Thanks for the support, Judith and K! I really do feel a bit better, though my mood is still a bit off, so I'm holing up to avoid certain things falling out of my mouth.

Paul felt he made progress explaining the back story of certain decisions to at least one person today. There are people here who don't know as much about Paul's stuff as you two do.

I like "The Internet Does Not Get A Vote!" It's a little trickier to say "Volunteers and Visitors Do Not Get A Vote!" however true that may be.

Oh, and Judith, folks mowing your lawn for you, without your permission?! Oy vey. That would send me right up into crazy mode! Hopefully everyone will figure out how abundant your system is, and even if they don't like it so much, they'll leave you to it.

We're still bringing loads of folks through here, so we are getting those who really think they have a better way and who think they are helping. They have no idea that what they are doing is rather the opposite.

Soon, we hope to have a few more long-term folks who know the ropes, so to speak, to make things better, mitigated also by a good precedent set before newbies arrive, plus the long-term folks doing some of the 'splainin' besides myself and Paul.

That's the goal. It's looking achievable, though still a bit bumpy until we get a bit further down the road.

Oh, and Judith, folks mowing your lawn for you, without your permission?! Oy vey. That would send me right up into crazy mode! Hopefully everyone will figure out how abundant your system is, and even if they don't like it so much, they'll leave you to it.

haha...and the weird part of that was that the one who mowed in the night did it as a kindness and I had to explain very carefully that I had been letting that clover grow for a reason and in the end it felt like I was apologizing for making him feel bad....good people, just a different view of things.....

Now, they all know us better and are really good neighbors in so many ways....although they are being pretty silent about the blueberries and figs and bales of straw in the front yard and it makes me wonder  

...having more folks to share the explaining sounds great...ants returning to the fold soon I think?

I *have* fired volunteers and even major donors who perpetually created drama to no good end.  I love feedback and was always happy to take constructive feedback and make a change if it was relevant. There were times the feedback was relevant and it was a teachable moment. Super.  But I did draw the line at volunteers and donors beating up my staff and telling them what they should do to make the volunteer happy.  At the end of the day, the board and the executive were responsible for fulfilling the mission of the program, not for making every volunteer and donor happy.  This sounds terribly harsh but for every 97 wonderful happy volunteers there were 3 that were volunteering because...honestly...they were miserable in their lives and were looking for someone else to make them feel better and were upset when that didn't happen. You *should* get rid of them. (KIDDING.  SUPER KIDDING. RUNNING AWAYLOLOLOLOLOLZ).

K Putnam wrote:I *have* fired volunteers and even major donors who perpetually created drama to no good end.  I love feedback and was always happy to take constructive feedback and make a change if it was relevant. There were times the feedback was relevant and it was a teachable moment. Super.  But I did draw the line at volunteers and donors beating up my staff and telling them what they should do to make the volunteer happy.  At the end of the day, the board and the executive were responsible for fulfilling the mission of the program, not for making every volunteer and donor happy.  This sounds terribly harsh but for every 97 wonderful happy volunteers there were 3 that were volunteering because...honestly...they were miserable in their lives and were looking for someone else to make them feel better and were upset when that didn't happen. You *should* get rid of them. (KIDDING.  SUPER KIDDING. RUNNING AWAYLOLOLOLOLOLZ).

Hahaha! You'd better run! (Joking, of course!)  

Yes, I think some people really only feel better if they can be in charge and telling others how to do things. Even when they're not in charge, and it's not their resources to direct. I was thinking of this exact thing over lunch today...

I really like the tag line of this thread!!!

Truth be told, I made a lot of bad choices in my journey and have had many people hit me with piles of should along the way. I am glad I finally get here to this "Place for gentle souls to learn about permieculture." I have every desire to be living in stark contrast to what I became conditioned to as a city person with no links to rural escape plans, but learning a whole new world at forty-six is a bit of a daunting task. So far, I have found, either on this site or through this site, some very good possible directions I could go in to break the ice with detoxing from Modern conveniences and getting out of the artificial pace of modernity and connect with real life, whatever the cost to my ego and lack of knowledge.  I am discovering slowly as I watch the videos and read the threads That there are many things I need to know and many other things I will need to learn once I leap into it. I hesitate to ask a should question here because my autistic like brain might overload with too many suggestions all at once so I will not ask anyone what I should focus on first.........but....

So I am in Phoenix, it is shifting from summer to hell as I am told by locals and I am realizing I have never lived in the kind of environment where these things are happening. I am from Connecticut and I am not aware of anything like this there. I like the wwoofing idea and the intentional permieculture  concept a lot. My question is about residence. I simply cannot afford to maintain a residence just for the sake of having a mailing address.  How do people generally deal with that issue when making the shift to something Like a boot camp opportunity or permaculture coop or community?

Even having a tiny house on wheels requires wheels which need an address to register it to.

Remember, there are no stupid questions, only stupid people. (self deprecation humor)

I was told when I was a kid that if I didn't know something I should ask...................yeah.