Did you just "should" on me?

Kai Walker wrote:Perhaps using the phrase "you might want to' would be more appropriate?

I enjoy using the phrase "I like to...", because then it is about me, and not about other people. For example, I might say, "I like to avoid eating Salmon from the Pacific Ocean, because I am worried about radiation from the reactor leak." In that way, it is only about me, and my beliefs, and it's not telling other people what they should be doing. At the same time, it is inviting them, if they feel inclined, to think about whether or not they want to avoid eating fish from the Pacific Ocean.

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:

Judith Browning wrote:I think some folks look at their surroundings with a critical eye and are always looking for (their version of)  improvements...we got that reaction often when we lived off grid in a cabin up a trail.  It was so unusual for many folks that they felt like they had to 'suggest' ways to better our conditions.    

Thank you for being so understanding and for your example, Judith! It helps! And yes, "so unusual"...we have that in spades!

We've poured resources in to facilitating hundreds of visitors, residents, and helpers (maybe over 500 now?) who are new and learning, and poured even more resources in to amateurs doing projects for us. So much so, that to some, what we have after 5 years isn't nearly what some people expect or would have chosen as their priority. And that's okay. I'm choosing to frame it that we've invested a lot in people, not things; and, in my book, that is way cool. Even if it doesn't really show on the property as much at the moment.

We're such a teaching site though, that my conversations wander over into implied "shoulds" probably more often than I'd like to admit. Especially when it comes to food. I have some strong opinions on what is healthy or isn't, and I recently told someone all about how I think salt is fine if balanced with enough potassium, and the poor person's eyes glazed over. Ha! I'd like to catch myself before doing that kind of thing overmuch.

I definitely struggle with this. People visit my farm (going on my third year) and, lacking experience in farming and gardening, don't understand how much work it takes just to MAINTAIN things, let alone (dare I say!) expand. My lawn (if you can call it that) is messy. My house isn't as clean as it could be. There's always building maintenance that I should consider doing, and things that need more watering during summer. It's hard, even for me, to see how much work has gone into this place and how much progress has actually been made. That's why it's nice when other permies visit, because they have a different sense of vision and concept of work/values

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:

Kai Walker wrote:Perhaps using the phrase "you might want to' would be more appropriate?

I enjoy using the phrase "I like to...", because then it is about me, and not about other people. For example, I might say, "I like to avoid eating Salmon from the Pacific Ocean, because I am worried about radiation from the reactor leak." In that way, it is only about me, and my beliefs, and it's not telling other people what they should be doing. At the same time, it is inviting them, if they feel inclined, to think about whether or not they want to avoid eating fish from the Pacific Ocean.

MANY THANKS for your post.

I am trying to comply and will my best to do so.
I like this place and mean to cause no problems.

It is 'different' for me to alter my phraseology but I am earnestly working on it.

I really do like this place and want to stay.

I am so sorry for any problems.

Should i.
Or should I knot?
Well maybe I could.
But only with a wood.

Travis Johnson wrote:
I was told a long time ago by someone that people often just want to be heard. Why that is, takes on many different reasons. Perhaps it is because they have low self esteem and criticizing others makes them feel better about themselves? For others it may be because a spouse may be domineering and they can never say anything? Honestly who knows, but my brother showed me how to deal with those people. When he gets cut off, or some driver does something stupid, he waves to them. To him it his way of flipping them off, but they see his friendly wave and think he is being jovial. It is the ultimate, "you are so stupid and don't really know what I am really telling you", response my brother can give. So I have adopted it.

Love this! Today, we were walking from our car to the local thrift store. My husband and son were a bit behind me, and a lady in his big truck started backing up out of her parking spot toward them. She yelled/chided them to not get hit and to not be in the way. My husband waved, and said, "I like your truck" and kept walking.

In applying Permie Principals to this...if I may...and I only present this for a discussion and potential thought, and by no means an absolute; is it possible that "Should-People (henceforth called "Shouldels") just be jealous?
In every one of these situations it is possible that jealousy is at play?

This very well may be so. It could also be them feeling bad about not being as good as the person they're shoulding, and so find flaws in the other person so they feel better about themselves. It's kind of when my husband gets at me for not tidying up directly after I do something, even though I spend hours cleaning most every day. So, of course, ANY time he forgets to put something away or clean up after himself, I feel the need to point it out. It's the whole "how dare you tell me I'm not doing something well enough, so I'm going point out all of your failures." People often FEEL that they are being told they aren't good enough, just by being around someone who's making better choices. They feel--for lack of a better word--guilty. Say someone's at Paul and Jocelyn's place. Even if Jocelyn never says she's making more awesome choices, the person FEELS that way, because they feel inferior to Jocelyn. So, they find the most minor of things to complain about, so as to make themselves feel better.

We humans are silly creatures.

Kai Walker wrote:Perhaps using the phrase "you might want to' would be more appropriate?

Or "I would ..."

I think that a key piece of smoothitude we have learned here over the years is to have folks present their position rather than state "the truth" or tell others what they should do.   In fact, it is plausible that the word "should" might be used for one's one personal gobbledy-gook exclusively.   Maybe I could say "I really should eat more cookies"  or "I think I should take more naps."

paul wheaton wrote:

Kai Walker wrote:Perhaps using the phrase "you might want to' would be more appropriate?

Or "I would ..."

I think that a key piece of smoothitude we have learned here over the years is to have folks present their position rather than state "the truth" or tell others what they should do.   In fact, it is plausible that the word "should" might be used for one's one personal gobbledy-gook exclusively.   Maybe I could say "I really should eat more cookies"  or "I think I should take more naps."

*rubs eyes*
*rubs eyes AGAIN*

Is this the infamous Paul personally posting to me?

I am so honored!

Thank you!

You, and as others have pointed out, indicate via my recent chastisement, that I need to work on my social skills more.

Seems I have overlooked this personality flaw of mine. (I don't `get out` a lot)

Change is never easy but I will do my best to communicate in a more appropriate manner.

Maybe that is why my wife calls me 'rock'. She keeps telling me I am 'dumber than a....'

Beginning to see her point...

Please accept my humblest apologies for any transgressions.

I have been managing on-line communities for more than 30 years.  And I'm still learning stuff.  

I think we have all learned that there are styles that build community and there are styles that destroy community.   I think people don't really appreciate the latter until they have personally observed how extreme it can go.  

And then there are styles that some people insist destroy, when it is actually the person complaining that is destructive.  We have an excellent thread around here somewhere talking about the word "fuck" - the word is quite harmless, but there are people that choose to fear it and be upset.   I choose to not reward those people - so I like to use the word often.  

And here we are exploring the word "should" ...   If I say to you "you should nap more" then I now understand that I am stating that I am an expert on napping and you are a dumbfuck that I am trying to convey my great napping knowledge.  That strikes me as a level of rude that I don't want to do.  

So I will try to say "fuck" more often, and I will try to reduce my use of "should."

I personally don't swear, but I also find it facinating that sometimes we have people who come and complain about swearing, and somehow manage to be 10 times more rude and unkind while not swearing that the person who swore.

Language is hard. What can be rude for one person, isn't rude to another, and we've got over 70,000 people on this forum. And we try to keep everything nice for everyone. It's not easy!

We have one rule here: "Be Nice." But, it's kind of like "Common Sense"--which is not usually common, and often what makes sense to one person, doesn't to another. Common Sense isn't common. Being nice isn't either. But, our form of niceness makes this forum a lovely place to be and learn (at least, I think it is!) and so we try really hard to help people learn what we mean by "be nice" with threads like this one.

paul wheaton wrote:I have been managing on-line communities for more than 30 years.  And I'm still learning stuff.  

I think we have all learned that there are styles that build community and there are styles that destroy community.   I think people don't really appreciate the latter until they have personally observed how extreme it can go.  

And then there are styles that some people insist destroy, when it is actually the person complaining that is destructive.  We have an excellent thread around here somewhere talking about the word "fuck" - the word is quite harmless, but there are people that choose to fear it and be upset.   I choose to not reward those people - so I like to use the word often.  

And here we are exploring the word "should" ...   If I say to you "you should nap more" then I now understand that I am stating that I am an expert on napping and you are a dumbfuck that I am trying to convey my great napping knowledge.  That strikes me as a level of rude that I don't want to do.  

So I will try to say "fuck" more often, and I will try to reduce my use of "should."

My mod experience is about 10 year-ish.

I truly understand the difficulties one can encounter with the different personalities interacting.
I don't want to make any waves any more than the staff here wants to deal with them.
As a mathematical formula, the resultant is zero.

I am by NO means an expert at anything. Just fairly well rounded in a few things.
School of hard knocks taught me pretty well.

I interpreted the s-word as to mean a suggestion not a directive or implication of one being an expert.
The use of the word must is clearly a directive and does imply one being an expert (or in authority as the case may be).

Every forum I have been to wants as much activity as they can get.
But this one seems to me that significant activity is shunned?
Therein lies another confusing aspect for me to digest.

I am about as easy to get along with as one could want. Just need to know a few things (and with my old timers disease a reminder once in a while).

That pesky C.R.S. syndrome does become an ugly monster sometimes.

I don't normally use the f-word. Unless I smash my thumb or something.
(I don't drink, smoke, do drugs, lie, cheat, steal, etc. A pretty boring person here).

In the circles in my corner, you are admired for your practical advice and insight.

I do tell people of this site. Some are fixated on their own venues and won't be bothered. Their loss I suppose.

I believe this site of yours has intrinsic value for nearly everyone. And that makes is a good resource to turn to in times of difficulties.

I am honored that you took a few minutes of your time to post to me.
Thank you!


PS still have to reread the rules here again. Rather busy at the moment.

Nicole Alderman wrote:I personally don't swear, but I also find it facinating that sometimes we have people who come and complain about swearing, and somehow manage to be 10 times more rude and unkind while not swearing that the person who swore.

Language is hard. What can be rude for one person, isn't rude to another, and we've got over 70,000 people on this forum. And we try to keep everything nice for everyone. It's not easy!

We have one rule here: "Be Nice." But, it's kind of like "Common Sense"--which is not usually common, and often what makes sense to one person, doesn't to another. Common Sense isn't common. Being nice isn't either. But, our form of niceness makes this forum a lovely place to be and learn (at least, I think it is!) and so we try really hard to help people learn what we mean by "be nice" with threads like this one.

I try not to swear either. No real need for it.

There was some lyrics to a song:
Communication is the problem to the answer....

70K?

That is AWESOME!

Do you get the George Jetson disease often from all that typing?
Ya know, 'pushbuttonitis'?



(Nicole is a Saint)

Kai Walker wrote:
Every forum I have been to wants as much activity as they can get.

That's probably why so many forums fail.  They sacrifice quality for quantity.  

Kai Walker wrote:
Every forum I have been to wants as much activity as they can get.
But this one seems to me that significant activity is shunned?
Therein lies another confusing aspect for me to digest.

I don't think the goal of permies was ever to become popular.  I'm amazed we have as many members as we do.  For some reason, people want to spend time here.  Even though permies a heavily moderated environment.  

One of the aims of this site is to create a perennial resource where we can talk about and explore permaculture.  when reading old threads, you may notice that there is very little chaff to distract from the conversation.

from here: https://permies.com/wiki/27826/advertising-permies

paul wheaton wrote:Last updated: November, 2016
At the time of this writing ...

• Permies.com gets 1.4 million visits per month and over 26 million pageviews per month.
• Richsoil.com gets about 300,000 visits per month and 700,000 pageviews.
• My youtube channel has about 73,000 subscribers and 21 million views.
• My podcasts tend to get downloaded about 5000 times each.
• 30,000 people on the dailyish email, 70,000 on the monthlyish

that was three years ago.  Permies is growing.

We have amazing members here.  The staff do a terrific job of making permies a nice place to hang out.  

r ranson wrote: I don't think the goal of permies was ever to become popular.  I'm amazed we have as many members as we do.  For some reason, people want to spend time here.  Even though permies a heavily moderated environment.  

For me, it is because this is such a lovely place with such lovely people who want to be nice.

r ranson wrote:

Kai Walker wrote:
Every forum I have been to wants as much activity as they can get.

That's probably why so many forums fail.  They sacrifice quality for quantity.  

Kai Walker wrote:
Every forum I have been to wants as much activity as they can get.
But this one seems to me that significant activity is shunned?
Therein lies another confusing aspect for me to digest.

I don't think the goal of permies was ever to become popular.  I'm amazed we have as many members as we do.  For some reason, people want to spend time here.  Even though permies a heavily moderated environment.  

One of the aims of this site is to create a perennial resource where we can talk about and explore permaculture.  when reading old threads, you may notice that there is very little chaff to distract from the conversation.

The one I ran didn't fail because of a lack of visitors or participation. It was the host being cheap and closed it, Not just mine but everyone's on there.
We were forced to migrate to another far lesser known host and that was the demise so many of us experienced.

Only 70K members out of 1.4 million hits?

People are social animals. They spend time not only for the information but for each other.

When you have great content and good people (this site has both - a rarity too) you cannot fail for those reasons. Only an external force can do that (like a bad hosting for example).

Being neighborly, whether up close and personal or distant ( online), involves looking out for each other, and knowing when you should keep your mouth shut ( or typing fingers idle).  

Kai Walker wrote:

Only 70K members out of 1.4 million hits?

Those are just our active members. When we send out our monthyish email, it goes out to that many people. If people unsubscribe from the monthlyish, their account is closed (can be opened at any time). I have no idea how many members we've had in total over the years. At least twice that amount, though

Kai, I'm only posting this to try to help you; I hope it comes across that way.  Although these quotes are from another thread that you started, I think they're germane here:

r ranson wrote:
Permies.com is a highly moderated site.  Your posts are eating up a huge amount of staff time by posting things that do not meet publishing standards.  The staff here are volunteers who donate their time to permies because they are lovely people who feel permies is a nice place to spend their time.

If you are like most of the human race and aren't comfortable with a highly moderated website, then it may be time to look elsewhere.  

You are a hairsbreadth from being banned from this site.  Think carefully before you post again.  

and:

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:Short one or two line posts burn up a lot of staff time, and don't contribute much information to a thread.

It would really help us in the short term, if you could limit your posting to a few substantial posts per day. Tell us about the permaculture projects that you are doing. Avoid mentioning how other people are doing them wrong, or questioning their reasons.  

It seems to me that you're taking up a lot more of the mod's time today, which probably isn't helping your cause.  

John Elliott wrote:What we "should" do is dependent on the ethic we want to follow.  

I totally agree!  I should pay the bills today if I don't want to pay late fees.

When I catch a "shoulding" I try to qualify or at least name why I should.

a possible reframing of a shoulding: I choose to do x to avoid (or make possible) y.

I often hear it when I present the internship opportunity and discuss projects at Windward.  Someone says, "You should be doing this," means that person wants me to spend my time and my money doing what they want.  It is a big conversation ender for me.

Mental Health Professionals refer to it as one of the ten-ish forms of distorted thinking because it causes guilt/shame depending on the situation.  

Thanks for getting us thinking, Paul.

Kai Walker wrote:
There was some lyrics to a song:
Communication is the problem to the answer....

Gah! 10cc - "The Things We Do For Love." Thanks for the earworm. The symptoms should fade in a day. Is there a non-toxic permaculture solution?

The concept seems to be lifted, in part, from Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy and Albert Ellis.  Though I am sure others before him made similar observations. He often commented on the practice of shoulding on oneself.  Sometimes he referred to this as the tyranny of should.  Actually, from what I can tell, he was not against using the word should. He was against the irrational, self- destructive use of it.  To that extent, I agree. Paul has often made comments on his use of the English language.  I feel we can apply this to all words.  The word itself has very little impact in itself .... it is the value we assign to it as as the deliverer or recipient. Like any tool, and I do see words as tools, if used improperly , we can harm ourselves or others.

Ludger Merkens wrote:

Charles Tarnard wrote:'I would prefer to not use plastic in that application' is much less forceful than 'you shouldn't use plastic.'

Sorry to disagree, but to my ears, this is almost as bad as the 'should' phrase.

Yes, it's a rather devious way to say "It's wrong to use plastic in that application." If the speaker/writer is trying to discourage the use of plastic, it's constructive and non-accusatory to say what could be used instead in that application. That opens the door to a consideration of the pros and cons and possible other alternatives. Discussion and learning trump recrimination and guilt any day.

Great topic full of some insightful responses.

The English language and American culture is full of suggestive and and conditional phrases. It is also full of many (IMO disrespectful)dominating cultural rituals, to me “should” is usually connected to dominating behavior. In western culture class is a gray area which many times gets sorted out in conversation. When I hear “should” getting thrown around a lot by a person it is usually mixed in with a lot of other dominating cultural rituals such as “one upping the Jones” my truck is bigger, my university was better, I make more $$, I recycle more,

When you tell someone they "should" do something you are dominating them, telling them what to do with their time, energy and thoughts.

I don't always read that deep into “should”, many people use a lot of words and terms that are “unconscious” patterns. I am always impressed when I talk to people and I see them step back and consciously choose their words before they present a thought or suggestion.  

This is an interesting topic - it encouraged me to write a Python script that beeps at me whenever I use the word "should", which lets me stop and reconsider how I am using it.

So far I've noticed that I mostly use it in regards to myself, such as "I should x", which I did not expect.

Ultimately, most conversations  alternate between people taking the roles of Parent/ Child/Equal Adult, hopefully not in an unbalanced way ... But in the Good/Bad Old Days, when psychology  wasn't  about so much about Self Improvement/ Making Money, but more about the Unconscious -- Eric Berne wrote an excellent book on this topic called GAMES PEOPLE PLAY, examining the Parent/Child dynamic in many relationships.  Nowadays its a rather politically incorrect book, bc it doesnt pull any punches, but IMHO a deeply insightful one.
Heres a link to the excerpt/preview on Google Books.
Everybody really SHOULD read this book!!!
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Games_People_Play/2J3wAgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover  

I have been on the forum since 2016 though every time I start to type the word "should" I remember this thread.

There are so many better words to use.

What are some better words to use instead of using "should"?

Perhaps phrasing as an observation rather than a prescription? Like instead of “you should start cabbages indoors under grow lights,” you could say  “some gardeners have success with cabbages in my climate by starting them indoors under grow lights” or even personalize if it’s based on your own experience: “the only way I ever had success with cabbages in my climate was to start them indoors under grow lights.”

The problems are usually a lot bigger than the public sees.  Shoulding on moderators slows down the process of cleaning up the mess.