Steve Farmer wrote:Being English, this might be regional.. The word should definitely does have obligation attached to its use very often. However it can also be used as a suggestion...
"I heard you were looking for work. You should have a chat with Joe at the builders' yard, he's looking for someone"
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I think being "should on" feels better or okay IF you've asked for feedback. If you haven't asked for any feedback or help, and it's unsolicited, then it feels like being "should on" - basically that you're not doing it right.
"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young
Judith Browning wrote:
I think being "should on" feels better or okay IF you've asked for feedback. If you haven't asked for any feedback or help, and it's unsolicited, then it feels like being "should on" - basically that you're not doing it right.
Thank you Jocelyn...timely...I just reworded my post https://permies.com/t/80/92479/Ethics-working-working-money#798748
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Jocelyn Campbell wrote:
I'm still smarting a bit from someone giving us (those of us at wheaton labs) unsolicited "shoulds" with about every other sentence in a multitude of conversations. Even our dish soap was criticized. It's rather tiring. In hindsight, it feels like being hit repeatedly with a bat, though I think I'm extra sensitive recently due to a bunch of compounding factors. So I felt like reviving this thread.
I wondered aloud at a community dinner this week, why it is that visitors here give us more "shoulds" than a guest at someone's home might. Fred replied that he thought it could be that since we're trying so many innovative or experimental things that it seems we'd be more open to suggestions/"shoulds" than others. Or, maybe (this is from me, not Fred) since Paul and myself are so forthright with our own opinions, others feel they can (or are welcome or entitled to?) share their own opinions about what we're doing.
"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young
Judith Browning wrote:I think some folks look at their surroundings with a critical eye and are always looking for (their version of) improvements...we got that reaction often when we lived off grid in a cabin up a trail. It was so unusual for many folks that they felt like they had to 'suggest' ways to better our conditions.
QuickBooks set up and Bookkeeping for Small Businesses and Farms - jocelyncampbell.com
QuickBooks set up and Bookkeeping for Small Businesses and Farms - jocelyncampbell.com
"But if it's true that the only person over whom I have control of actions is myself, then it does matter what I do. It may not matter a jot to the world at large, but it matters to me." - John Seymour
'Every time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain.'
F Agricola wrote:‘Should’ can also be said in a funny, often ironic or sarcastic, way.
In Oz it’s very common to critique someone’s mistake by stating the obvious, for example:
You’ve gone over a friends place, with a group of others, to help do some work. Whilst digging a hole one of the blokes strikes a water pipe, creating a fountain of water. As they all gather around to see the mess, members of the group respond:
‘Geez mate, you should’ve checked for water pipes before you started digging.’
‘There’s an idea, you should make that a permanent water feature.’
‘I reckon maybe someone should turn the water off?’
It’s a traditional way to calm, what otherwise could be, a tense situation.
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A build too cool to miss:Mike's GreenhouseA great example:Joseph's Garden
All the soil info you'll ever need:
Redhawk's excellent soil-building series
Trace Oswald wrote:Lol, I love that!...smashing your thumb with a hammer...
Travis Johnson wrote: is it possible that "Should-People (henceforth called "Shouldels") just be jealous?
In every one of these situations it is possible that jealousy is at play?
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Nina Jay wrote:I'm struggling with this too. Why do some people feel the need to tell other people what they should do? I mean, really, why? I feel that if I understood the reason better I could respond in a more positive and productive manner.
...
My mother uses shoulds a lot. ...
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Jocelyn Campbell wrote:
The first is that children are raised by their mother, meaning that their actions are a reflection of that parenting. So even if the child is now an adult, their choices, their failures or successes, are seen as a reflection of that parenting. I think this results in mothers "shoulding" on their adult children - because the mothers don't want to look like they were/are poor parents.
The second theory I have is perhaps a bit sexist, though as a woman and mother myself, I think I can present it. Since women are such caretakers, and mothers especially might get their main identity as being a mother, or a family caretaker, there might not be other avenues for those mothers to build their identity or self-worth (or joy) through other accomplishments. I think some women only try for their self-worth, (or success, if you will), or only know how to tie their self-worth, through others. So if your self-worth is inextricably tied to others, I think that results in wanting the others to behave "just so" for your own happiness, resulting in all the "shoulds."
I'm not sure if that second theory was explained very well, though I'm sure we all have met people/parents like that - perhaps of either/any sex! Some people just don't have boundaries with their loved ones, and cannot see that they will not be able to control another person's actions.
The third theory is (simply) a flavor of righteousness. When someone is convinced something is right, the "shoulds" just naturally follow. Because everyone should know what is right, shouldn't they? ;-)
“The most important decision we make is whether we believe we live in a friendly or hostile universe.”― Albert Einstein
Jocelyn Campbell wrote:
children are raised by their mother, meaning that their actions are a reflection of that parenting. So even if the child is now an adult, their choices, their failures or successes, are seen as a reflection of that parenting. I think this results in mothers "shoulding" on their adult children - because the mothers don't want to look like they were/are poor parents.
Jocelyn Campbell wrote: The third theory is (simply) a flavor of righteousness. When someone is convinced something is right, the "shoulds" just naturally follow. Because everyone should know what is right, shouldn't they?
"But if it's true that the only person over whom I have control of actions is myself, then it does matter what I do. It may not matter a jot to the world at large, but it matters to me." - John Seymour
"But if it's true that the only person over whom I have control of actions is myself, then it does matter what I do. It may not matter a jot to the world at large, but it matters to me." - John Seymour
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Dan Boone wrote:Whereas my default attitude is “why would we even be HAVING this conversation if they didn’t want help?”
A build too cool to miss:Mike's GreenhouseA great example:Joseph's Garden
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Redhawk's excellent soil-building series
Trace Oswald wrote:
Dan Boone wrote:Whereas my default attitude is “why would we even be HAVING this conversation if they didn’t want help?”
Amen.
Cassie Langstraat wrote:
The thing is, is that everyone's version of what "help" looks like, is different. So asking someone what *kind* of support and help they need or want instead of assuming that its the same kind *you* want, is usually the best way to navigate this kind of thing.
“The most important decision we make is whether we believe we live in a friendly or hostile universe.”― Albert Einstein
John Weiland wrote:It took me most of the decades of my marriage to learn.....i.e, be instructed time and again.....this simple fact. In brief, and irrespective of whether or not it was my wife, a co-worker, or a friend, *ANY* outburst of frustration was **to ME** a plea to FIX the problem. Learning that this was not always that case....that indeed "help" was often just providing a listening ear.....was a major breakthrough of education, but not necessarily of implementation. I have a pretty good idea of where I obtained this knee-jerk reaction that outbursts needed to be met with 'rescuing action', but the bottom line is that is was something that became deeply ingrained.....and was utterly false! Although it doesn't solve all problems, the current 'go-to' approach now is to 'sit with' the tirade [somewhat like enjoying the effect of pure sodium on water ..:-) ], offer a genuine "That sucks....I'm sorry to hear that.", and then ask in the aftermath, "How would you like to have this problem addressed and over what time-line?" Sometimes it's just as simple as listening,.....other times it's more involved, like solving global warming. ( ;-) ) What clued clueless me into my faulty way of perceiving the situation was the number of times conflagrations felt,...to *me*,.... like only a funeral wake would alleviate the rift in the house. Only to have my wife suddenly say in a fairly matter-of-fact tone "I'm starving...what's for dinner?...". In other words, *she* was not perceiving the situation as anything more than venting frustration whereas I had a different take altogether.
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Idle dreamer
Cassie Langstraat wrote:
But what I've come to realize is that it really only FEELS like they think that. Most of the time (at least for me in my experiences) they don't *actually* think they know better than me, they are just trying to be helpful because they care about me and want me to not be in distress about whatever it is we are talking about. HOWEVER, I think this stems from people being codependent as SHIT and not knowing how to be okay with the people they care about being in distress so they are *so* uncomfortable by your pain that they are taking great effort to get you *out* of pain when really they could maybe just sit with you and allow you to feel what you're going through and sort it out yourself, like a good therapist would. So really people just need to learn how to not take other people's distress and/or pain on and let people express themselves without telling them what to do UNLESS THEY SAY WHAT SHOULD I DO DUDE?
Lucrecia Anderson wrote:
I have found the best solution is often to tell them outright exactly what you want (i.e. I just need to vent, and I appreciate you listening to me).
Idle dreamer
Tyler Ludens wrote:
Lucrecia Anderson wrote:
I have found the best solution is often to tell them outright exactly what you want (i.e. I just need to vent, and I appreciate you listening to me).
I love this, because it eliminates the need for "mind reading" which some people (I think maybe mostly women?) expect from others. I try to eliminate the need for mind reading in my communications, because I am a horrible mind reader!
John Weiland wrote:
What clued clueless me into my faulty way of perceiving the situation was the number of times conflagrations felt,...to *me*,.... like only a funeral wake would alleviate the rift in the house. Only to have my wife suddenly say in a fairly matter-of-fact tone "I'm starving...what's for dinner?...". In other words, *she* was not perceiving the situation as anything more than venting frustration whereas I had a different take altogether.
....And the schools still insist on "Gym" class instead of basic interpersonal relations! ....Doh!
"But if it's true that the only person over whom I have control of actions is myself, then it does matter what I do. It may not matter a jot to the world at large, but it matters to me." - John Seymour
John Weiland wrote:
It took me most of the decades of my marriage to learn.....i.e, be instructed time and again.....this simple fact. In brief, and irrespective of whether or not it was my wife, a co-worker, or a friend, *ANY* outburst of frustration was **to ME** a plea to FIX the problem. Learning that this was not always that case....that indeed "help" was often just providing a listening ear.....was a major breakthrough of education, but not necessarily of implementation. I have a pretty good idea of where I obtained this knee-jerk reaction that outbursts needed to be met with 'rescuing action', but the bottom line is that is was something that became deeply ingrained.....and was utterly false!
John Weiland wrote:offer a genuine "That sucks....I'm sorry to hear that.", and then ask in the aftermath, "How would you like to have this problem addressed and over what time-line?"
"But if it's true that the only person over whom I have control of actions is myself, then it does matter what I do. It may not matter a jot to the world at large, but it matters to me." - John Seymour
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Chris Wang wrote:I'm struggling with this concept, but I think people should be able to run their forum as the want to.
Is that acceptable?
What about if you are a passenger in a car driving fast down a hill in the rain, there is a corner coming up, should you tell the drive that they should slow down? A blind drunk person is about to drive home, can you say that they should get a lift?
"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young
paul wheaton wrote:When I was a young man, I remember a woman telling me "you should never say 'should'". For an hour or two we explored this idea.
And then a couple of years ago, a friend of mine opened that door again.
The general idea goes something like this: the word "should" is a word that is used by the parent to teach a child, or by the master to teach a padowan. So when you use the word to suggest what somebody else "should" do, you are suggesting that you are the parent/master and the other party is the child/padowan.
I suspect that this one of those things that is not absolutely true, but there is a lot of truth to it.
Recently, somebody wrote a post that included the word "should" that contained as aspect that I had never considered.
the more i see and hear, the less i know for sure, but if you tell me what i "should " be doing for the welfare of the planet, be ready for an intensive search into your closet and careful examination of every inconsistency.
The author was asked to modify their post to be less confrontational, and the author instantly complied, which is lovely. At the same time, I thought the message was quite valid and have decided to share it here.
I guess I'm thinking that the function of these forums is to build a richer understanding of homesteading and permaculture. (and even more specifically, topics I like in ways that I like) A bit of care with the word "should" might help improve our overall velocity.
I created this thread with the idea of directing people here when the word is used in an uncomfortable way. Anybody else have anything to add for people that might be using the word "should" inappropriately?
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