My favorite definition of permaculture is "Permaculture is a more symbiotic relationship with nature - so I can be even lazier."
In my past there have been times when I was a renter and times when I was a homeowner. One lesson I learned is that improving rented property will make the rent go up. I even got to the point of talking to the landlord/owner in advance to say that I will gladly improve the property, at my own expense, as long as the rent doesn't go up. Lots and lots of promises from them, I improve things, and then the rent goes up. I never got paid a dime for those improvements. That seemed messed up. I was told, repeatedly, that my efforts had no value. It seems that if that were true, the rent would not go up. One place even tried to charge me for "destruction of property" (putting in gardens, with permission) even though that was the primary feature for raising the rent.
I have never owned a rental and then rented it out, but I have heard the stories. A tenant promises to make improvements in exchange for a reduction in rent and then never gets around to it. And, instead, ends up leaving the property (in much worse condition) while owing several months of rent.
These stories are not unique. We've all heard them. Maybe seen them and/or experienced them first hand. Further, this isn't rare. It is more the rule than the exception. It's like the world of renting is infested with ferengi. The (non) solution, on either side, is to document the hell out of everything and be prepared to go to court. At the same time, even court turns out to be weak - you win, but the other party has shenanigans to keep from paying even then.
Further, "improvement" is relative and subjective. One person can do an improvement and insist that it has a value of $20,000. And everybody else in the whole world might see it as "destruction". Maybe somebody might think it is worth $500 and not a penny more, while most people see it as "destruction" (thus, a negative value).
So all of these things are part of "human nature". As we design our permaculture systems we must embrace solutions that work with the ferengi-ness that is part of human nature.
Taking a look at buying and selling property, it does a pretty good job of taking this into consideration. A person might try to sell their property for 8 million. After five years of trying, they accept $200,000. In the beginning, they are certain that is worth 8 million. They will even utter the words that 8 million is a fair price. But nobody would buy it for 8 million. Or 7. Or 6 ...
Some people make an excellent living buying a fixer upper for $180,00, putting a lot of work and materials into it and selling it for $600,000. Flipping.
In the world of renting there appears to be an ocean of opportunity for resentments and shenanigans. (pulling numbers out of my butt) 60% of the time all people involve are diligent and make sure things end up right - usually this requires that the renter makes zero improvements/changes - thus not a great recipe for improving things. 40% of the time, icky people are rewarded and decent people are punished. So, being icky pays really well. 60% of the time, things work out to be fair. And 40% of the time, being icky means extra cash/candy in your hand.
Ownership seems to be where it is more challenging to be rewarded for being icky. And there is great reward for making improvement. I think there is ickiness in this space, but the ickiness is a lot harder to get away with. And the system is designed more for "what you see is what you get". And if you make improvements that others value, then you are rewarded.
Further, with renting, there is a repeating transaction - and sometimes the renter has circumstances change and cannot pay the rent. Awkward. With ownership, there are no such problems (assuming there is no such thing as a mortgage).
Of course, with ownership, you still have to pay taxes. And then there are going to be costs involving maintenance - no landlord to come and fix things for you.
So as I explore what the relationships are like between everybody involved in the wheaton labs project, I think "a more symbiotic relationship with nature so I can be even lazier" (where "nature", in this case, is "human nature") needs to be applied to all parties. What is the design that leads to growth with least conflict?
There are properties for sale next to the lab that a permie can buy. And for on the lab, I do wish to have many artisans in seed and soil here. At the moment, my intention to make things smooth is that I set a per-acre rate for "raw land". A permie can "rent-ish" an acre of raw land. But if there is an improved piece then a permie can "rent-ish" the raw land under the improvements from me and buy the improvements from the previous "rent-ish-er". This is the thing I made up nearly two years ago. I'm still thinking it is a pretty good design, but time will tell.
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Outdoor and Ecological articles (sporadic Mondays) at http://blog.dxlogan.com/ and my main site is found at http://www.dxlogan.com/
D. Logan wrote:The property owner (and those of you who own property you rent, please forgive. This is not meant as an offense, but just a statement of facts) is charging someone more than the value of the property to stay there.
D. Logan wrote:If you rent, it is generally because you can't afford to own a property yourself.
Mike Cantrell wrote:
D. Logan wrote:The property owner (and those of you who own property you rent, please forgive. This is not meant as an offense, but just a statement of facts) is charging someone more than the value of the property to stay there.
I can't figure out any way that this makes sense.
The really literal way doesn't: If more than the value of the property means the amount of monthly rent (for example, $1,000) is higher than the sale price of the property (for example, $999), then no, that's virtually never the case.
The common-sense sort of way doesn't either: If more than the value of the property means more than the acceptable market for rent, then no, obviously not. If it's rented, then that's the rent value. If somebody's willing to pay that rent, then that's the rent value. That number can't be higher than itself, no matter what it is.
Is this just an emotional kind of thing where The Rent, in a generalized sort of way, Is Too Damn High? Your feelings are your feelings, but is that relevant here?
(cf http://www.rentistoodamnhigh.org)
Mike Cantrell wrote:
D. Logan wrote:If you rent, it is generally because you can't afford to own a property yourself.
I don't think that's the case either. The last eight places I've rented, its been because I needed someplace to live, but hadn't picked someplace permanent yet. That's the case for everybody I know, too.
The freedom to pick up and leave is a valuable thing. A house that you own, but don't want to own, that's a millstone around your neck. Plenty of smart people are renting because don't want that millstone.
Outdoor and Ecological articles (sporadic Mondays) at http://blog.dxlogan.com/ and my main site is found at http://www.dxlogan.com/
You do not have to be good.You do not have to walk on your knees For a hundred miles through the desert, repenting.You only have to let the soft animal of your body
love what it loves. -Mary Oliver
Zach Muller wrote:If I don't charge a higher rent than my mortgage payment how am I supposed to have the money to make repairs when I am required by law to do so? ( air conditioners, heaters, roofs etc.)
Zach Muller wrote:when I feel like getting out of town I get the money back when I sell the house
D. Logan wrote: That doesn't make either of us wrong, but instead gives two perspectives on the same situation. That is a valuable thing. Thank you for offering up the opposite viewpoint!
Zach Muller wrote:when I feel like getting out of town I get the money back when I sell the house
D. Logan wrote:No owner in their right mind would rent a location for only mortgage or less unless maybe it was family or a dear friend.
Nerds be nerding...
Living in Anjou , France,
For the many not for the few
http://www.permies.com/t/80/31583/projects/Permie-Pennies-France#330873
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Living in Anjou , France,
For the many not for the few
http://www.permies.com/t/80/31583/projects/Permie-Pennies-France#330873
paul wheaton wrote:I suppose my purpose in writing this thread is the idea that all plots have a value that is roughly the same. Whether improved or not.
And then a person can go onto a plot and create their improvements. They might think that the improvements are worth $40,000. But that could result in five years of no buyer - and then the improvements are sold for $8000. Therefore, the fair price is $8000.
Another important part of this: I am not part of it.
Living in Anjou , France,
For the many not for the few
http://www.permies.com/t/80/31583/projects/Permie-Pennies-France#330873
Living in Anjou , France,
For the many not for the few
http://www.permies.com/t/80/31583/projects/Permie-Pennies-France#330873
paul wheaton wrote:
At the moment, my intention to make things smooth is that I set a per-acre rate for "raw land". A permie can "rent-ish" an acre of raw land. But if there is an improved piece then a permie can "rent-ish" the raw land under the improvements from me and buy the improvements from the previous "rent-ish-er". This is the thing I made up nearly two years ago. I'm still thinking it is a pretty good design, but time will tell.
D. Logan wrote:The property owner (and those of you who own property you rent, please forgive. This is not meant as an offense, but just a statement of facts) is charging someone more than the value of the property to stay there. If you rent, it is generally because you can't afford to own a property yourself. Not because you couldn't make the payments, but because of some other factor that limits the ability to own a mortgage.
'Theoretically this level of creeping Orwellian dynamics should ramp up our awareness, but what happens instead is that each alert becomes less and less effective because we're incredibly stupid.' - Jerry Holkins
Living in Anjou , France,
For the many not for the few
http://www.permies.com/t/80/31583/projects/Permie-Pennies-France#330873
But how did the elephant get like that? What did you do? I think all we can do now is read this tiny ad:
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