brand new video:
       
get all 177 hours of
presentations here.
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic

equality versus equity - the history of this meme and the discussions it started  RSS feed

 
Jocelyn Campbell
steward
Posts: 4205
Location: Missoula, MT
392
books food preservation forest garden hugelkultur toxin-ectomy
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Today, I stumbled across an article by the creator of the equality versus equity "accidental meme" (as he calls it).

The Evolution of an Accidental Meme - How one little graphic became shared and adapted by millions by Craig Froehle.



There are some subtleties to Froehle's image that I hadn't noticed until I read through all of his comments about variations to his image. It's quite thought-provoking.

This is definitely a hotbed topic in which I'm not promoting any specific viewpoint. I just think it's rather amazing how an image can explain a concept so, so well. And how that image can be morphed and expanded upon (or bastardized, as the case may be).

 
paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 22340
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
bee chicken hugelkultur trees wofati woodworking
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The first image shows two criminals.

The second image shows three criminals. 

It sounds like somebody wishes to encourage crime?


 
Jocelyn Campbell
steward
Posts: 4205
Location: Missoula, MT
392
books food preservation forest garden hugelkultur toxin-ectomy
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
paul wheaton wrote:The first image shows two criminals.

The second image shows three criminals. 

It sounds like somebody wishes to encourage crime?




It is a crime to try to attend or watch something for free that requires a paid ticket.

Though I think the fence is meant more as a metaphor - an obstacle to a part of life.

There are some versions of the meme where the fence was removed or changed so the kids could see through it. Which meant removing the source of inequity instead of adjusting for it, which the original creator thought was brilliant.
 
John Weiland
Posts: 933
Location: RRV of da Nort
43
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
@P&J:  Re-Criminality.

This does seem to be a brilliant meme on many levels.  For instance, one could ask, and perhaps Dostoevsky did, which is more criminal--- coopting "America's past-time" into a multimilliondollar industry, or surreptitiously witnessing such ....."play".... at the rather minor expense of that industry.

I'm thinking that kids these days would be sitting in lawn chairs, having placed wireless cameras atop the fence, and enjoying the game on their iPods/Smartphones.  Now, if they were broadcasting their feed, ESPN may have a case.....
 
Marco Banks
Posts: 577
Location: Los Angeles, CA
49
books chicken food preservation forest garden hugelkultur trees urban woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
My brother would take one look at this and say, "Build your own damn box."
 
Fred Tyler
gardener
Posts: 398
Location: St Paul, MN/Tularosa, NM and now a gapper at Wheaton Labs
258
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Paul, it seems you are not alone...

From the creator's commentary:

"Curiously, there was no shortage of complaints that the kids were just freeloaders and should buy a ticket to be inside the stadium if they want to watch the game. Which, I think, entirely misses the point."


...in missing the point. Though, i'm guessing intentionally.
 
Judith Browning
Posts: 5907
Location: Arkansas Ozarks zone 7 alluvial,black,deep loam/clay with few rocks, wonderful creek bottom!
365
bike chicken fungi trees urban woodworking
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
my first impression on seeing this meme, was how nice for the older child to help out the youngest.  The game, in my mind, wasn't the point. 

I don't think I would assume that it was a pay to view game...can't tell from the action or the fence....I sure didn't assume they were cheating/criminals right of the bat...that never crossed my mind.

I also think the meme could be about helping those who are at a different level than oneself...I don't see the downside to that.....

And then, there's the risk that they are all taking by having their unprotected heads above the fence line, that fence may have been intended to keep balls in the field.  I can see where some might accuse the older child of putting the younger in harms way....
 
paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 22340
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
bee chicken hugelkultur trees wofati woodworking
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yes, I did intentionally miss the point. 

An optimist sees the glass half full.  A pessimist sees the glass half empty.  An engineer sees the glass as larger than it needs to be.  And a politician says "who the fuck has been drinking from my glass?"

I think that a good part of the point would be that if you seek something for all people to be able to have access to a thing, you recognize that some people will need a boost, some will need a bigger boost, and some will need no boost. 

I guess my comment earlier has a strong focus on how this thread is in the social justice forum.   So the real lesson here is to be really careful that we are figuring out how to help folks.   To help folks that have been falsely accused of stuff get a high priced lawyer?   Medical care, housing, food?   Or, will boxes help people commit crime?  Or hurt others, or give some sort of inappropriate advantage to bad guys. So I am thinking that if we are talking about these boxes in a forum called "social justice" we need to be very careful about the full picture of what they will be used for.  I saw that the boxes were being used for crime.  Apparently, others are willing to look past the crime in favor of appreciating the cleverness of the box distribution algorithm that assisted with there being more crime.

I've always wondered if there should be a branch of government that would be the "consumer advocate" that would look out for all of us little folk to protect us against the shenanigans of the naughty (corporate and corrupt gub'mint).  I think this is probably more important than "homeland security" or the nsa. 

 
Marco Banks
Posts: 577
Location: Los Angeles, CA
49
books chicken food preservation forest garden hugelkultur trees urban woodworking
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Reading the article that Jocelyn linked, and how the artists original drawing morphed and was adapted by dozens of people in the years since he drew it, it appears that he approaches the world with a number of assumptions.

1.  That there is a fixed number of "boxes" to go around, and that if we only redistribute the boxes, everyone will be served.  I don't think that it is in any way presumptuous or casting aspersions on the artist to say that this is an assumption fundamental to socialism: that resources are finite, and that if you somehow have more than me, you have taken an unfair amount of them -- fundamentally, you've probably stolen them from me.

In permaculture, we speak of abundance.  We take the worst piece of land, invest sweat and time and treasure into that land, and build a system where it goes beyond productive to a point where we are able to give away a surplus beyond what we are able to consume ourselves.  There is not underlying assumption of limited good.  The sky is the limit.  There are not just 3 boxes.  There are an unlimited number of potential boxes, you just have to do the hard work to build them.

To rephrase my bother's comment (that I quoted above): when someone argues, "We just want a slice of the pie", he would respond, "You mean you want a slice of my pie?  Bake your own damn pie."  I will help you, give you assistance, coaching, and support while you get your system up and running, but don't expect to eat from my fruit trees for the rest of your life.  Plant your own trees.  Invest in your own chickens.  Bake your own pie.  Build your own damn box.

2.  While all three people have a box (in the first panel), it's still considered unfair because the one dude is taller than the little dude.   I want to ask: how did he get so tall, and why are you so short?  The underlying message: he has more money (power, access to education, etc.) and the other guy has less, so give him yours.  This is the default response of many: redistribute the resources, rather than expand the resource base. 

3.  In the American context, these issues are most frequently framed in terms of race.  (And this is where I recognize I am walking into very sensitive territory, but as a person of color and under-represented minority myself, I will enter where angels fear to tread).  But when you look at the roots of social and economic inequality, the question of culture needs to be teased-out from race.  There is a huge and significant distinction between culture and race.  People just look at the skin color and say, "Well he's poor or uneducated -- someone must be discriminating against him -- it's a racist system."  Perhaps.  Racism is a very real and significant problem.  But is that it?  Is that all it is?  Or is there a larger unspoken issue of culture that is far more at the root of problem?

Why are some cultures (Asian, for instance, and increasingly Hispanic/Spanish speaking cultures) able to rise from the bottom of the American socio-economic strata) while other cultures remain stuck at the bottom?  If a culture values education, delay of gratification (as evidenced by saving money, investing for the long term, spending excess resources on personal development rather than entertainment, a stoic hard working emotional posture, etc.), family unity, sacrifice of the individual for the good of the group, etc., that culture (regardless of the color of their skin) will move ahead in front of any culture that celebrates a live-for-today ethos.  Again, it has nothing to do with your race and everything to do with the internalized values and social norms that guide your behavior.

So is shorty short because of something he's choosing to do or not do?  Is stretch that much taller because he's worked hard, paid his dues, and invested in miracle grow pills?  If you use terms like "protestant work ethic" or "land of opportunity" or "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" in certain audiences, you'll be shouted down.  It implies that some cultures are superior to others, and that is the reason for their success relative to others that are still unable to peek over the fence and enjoy the game. 

I reject that.  If a family or group of families spend their available resources on instant gratification, toys, and non-durable consumer goodies, they will fall behind that family or group of families that invests their money in education, durable resources (land, tools), family stability and long-term economic stability. 

Put simply -- if one guy invests in the latest iPhone and lease a bling'ed-out car, while the other guy works 2 jobs and goes to night school, you tell me, who will come out ahead in the end?  Values and culture matter.  It's the difference between renting your whole life or sacrificing and getting into a mortgage, even in a crappy small house, and building equity. 

And lest you think I'm just another member of the tight-ass republican trickle down club, that couldn't be farther from the truth.


Permaculture would say, "Hey shorty, do you know that there is a better way to go about this?  Ever think of building a second box for yourself?  Ever think about how to go about growing another two feet taller?  You have more resources available to you than you may even realize.  You don't have a shortness problem, you have a drill deficit.  Let's get a cordless drill and a 2 inch hole-saw and we'll take care of your visibility issue in about 30 seconds."

 
Marco Banks
Posts: 577
Location: Los Angeles, CA
49
books chicken food preservation forest garden hugelkultur trees urban woodworking
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Marco Banks wrote:
In permaculture, we speak of abundance.  We take the worst piece of land, invest sweat and time and treasure into that land, and build a system where it goes beyond productive to a point where we are able to give away a surplus beyond what we are able to consume ourselves.  There is not underlying assumption of limited good.  The sky is the limit.  There are not just 3 boxes.  There are an unlimited number of potential boxes, you just have to do the hard work to build them.



Make a better world through learning good things, rather than being angry at the bad guys.  Paul Wheaton
 
r ranson
master steward
Posts: 6398
Location: Left Coast Canada
794
books chicken cooking
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Marco Banks wrote:
To rephrase my bother's comment (that I quoted above): when someone argues, "We just want a slice of the pie", he would respond, "You mean you want a slice of my pie?  Bake your own damn pie."  I will help you, give you assistance, coaching, and support while you get your system up and running, but don't expect to eat from my fruit trees for the rest of your life.  Plant your own trees.  Invest in your own chickens.  Bake your own pie.  Build your own damn box.



Well said!

When people ask me to make them something or grow them something, or for me to something-something for them for free; I always respond by offering to give them free lessons on how to do it themselves.  Maybe one in fifty people take me up on the offer.  Out of a dozen people who took me up on the offer, only one of them was over 10 years old. 

I think equality is teaching people how to build their own 'damn boxes' and bake their own 'damn pie'. 

My high school math teacher use to yell at the class at the top of her lungs, so loud, you could hear it halfway across the school (it was a fair size school).  She would yell "NO FISH!!!"

The other thing she would yell is "COWF" (cancel only whole fractions - but that's not relevant to this discussion).  Basically, she was the best math teacher ever!

NO FISH was what she yelled when someone whispered the answer to a classmate.  It's from Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.  Teach a man to fish and you feed him for life.

Like I said, best math teacher ever!

As a person with an invisible disability, I view equal opportunity as teaching me how to fish.  In tern, within my means, I teach others how to fish.  You wouldn't believe how low my disability pension is, so let's just say it's well below the national poverty line and leave it at that.  To compensate, I use the library to borrow everything from books to videos to seeds for my garden. To me, equal opportunity is providing a well-stocked library and encouraging people to use it. 

It's nice when someone gives me a box, but I don't like to stand on it.  These metaphorical boxes are for taking apart and learning how to make my own.  Then I put it back together, stand on it, and see if I like the view (I often don't).

 
Dan Boone
gardener
Posts: 1787
Location: Central Oklahoma (zone 7a)
195
forest garden trees woodworking
  • Likes 7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Jocelyn Campbell wrote:
It is a crime to try to attend or watch something for free that requires a paid ticket.


Actually, I believe it is not.  Or, to be more precise, it's not a "malum in se" (bad in itself) crime as recognized by the English common law from which we here in the US take our legal traditions.  It may be a "malum prohibitum" (bad because it's prohibited) crime in select American jurisdictions, but if so it's not even close to universal in all US jurisdictions.  There's also a tricky freight hidden in that word "required" because it's a business requirement of the exhibitor, not a legal requirement of the state.

I'm not just law-geeking here because I can.  This is important.  Our unexamined assumptions are what bring us down. Paul sees (I imagine) a certain failure to honor some businessman's business model and parses it as crime.  It's not clear that businessmen have (or should have) the automatic right to legal-system protection for their business models.  In some jurisdictions, it might be "theft of services" or "trespassing" (depending on whether the ball park owns the land outside the fence) or some odd extension of European-style "creators' rights" to control access to an exhibition.  If you really stretch, you can maybe get to an intellectual property law violation, which are usually civil but not criminal unless truly egregious and for profit, like mass-producing DVDs or pirated playing cards.  (That had to hurt; ouch; full sympathies.)

But really, the same freedom that allows an entrepreneur the flexibility to organize a sporting event that people want to see and charge for tickets to see it gives that entrepreneur the right to decide how tall to build his fence and how much money to spend on that fence and how much land to buy outside that fence and whether or not to control access to that land outside the fence.  All of those things are simple business decisions.  You make them and you abide by the consequences and if the "freeloaders" watching your game while standing on boxes or flying nearby in small airplanes or overhead in hot air balloons, those are simply losses that you absorb because you didn't want to spend the money to prevent them.  There are places where condo towers with balconies overlook professional ballparks and people routinely hold viewing parties on their own balconies; nobody considers that a crime because it isn't.  It's just a leakage in the business model, not worth plugging because there's no practical way at reasonable expense. 

Again, I'm not just law-geeking because I can.  Who the legal system protects goes to the heart of what equality and equity mean.  I understand Paul's point; all the people in the graphic who can see over the fence are getting something for nothing, and that feels like injustice from the perspective of the person who pays out huge money to organize the sporting event and has a righteous expectation of being paid.  But it may not feel the same way to the viewers; and the criminal justice system has never pretended to address every injustice.  I'm way too much the anarchist to automatically assume that a capitalist's grievance (however righteous, and I do believe in and support the many great things that capitalists have, like the Romans in The Life Of Brian, done for the rest of us) ought to automatically be mapped to an offense in our criminal justice system; and as a point of fact, in our current system, those grievances do not automatically map to crimes, even if there is a growing trend in that direction.  And this one, in particular, is not well mapped to any broadly-recognized crime.
 
Deb Rebel
garden master
Posts: 1636
Location: Zone 6b
174
books cat fish food preservation greening the desert solar trees urban woodworking
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Everyone should have basic rights, dignities and access to things necessary for survival. I don't deny that. When there is an excess, it depends on the gulf between the haves and the have nots. I don't have a lot other than knowledge and a willingness to share that with others, so others can do what I can, to accomplish that which I need (providing for myself). In the same sense, I do not go about things 'selfishly' (hog the whole pile just because I can) but as a 'treat others how you would like to be treated'.

As someone said, the Earth is capable of providing your needs, not your greeds. If you need, you should be able to get. If you're greedy, I hope the karma-wagon backs up and dumps on you.

I had the epiphamy some years ago when we were in a rock and hard place, both spouse and I had a horrible cold, and we were within the throes of a killer move. I had hit the grocery store for a BOGO sale and brought the second loaf of bread home. It was now so old it should have been green. We were 10 days overdue for our last trip, the one to leave and move to the new place for good. The people buying the house allowed us access to it for one more night and our old bed someone was picking up in the morning. So as the new owners dictated, the lights were off and the thermostat set to about 50. I had the emergency blanket from the car, a working toilet, running water, and that loaf of bread. Plus the old mattress that was being picked up. I went to say my grace, and stopped.

Many would have been outraged, but here I was. It was November and I was in a warm dry place, with a decent mattress, flush plumbing, running water. I had a loaf of bread. Tomorrow I would make a long drive of many hours and there would be real food there when I got there. But. I had a safe place to sleep, food to eat, and clean water to drink. It wasn't a hotel room with cable and room service, but. I had enough. I could eat, I could drink, I could go to the bathroom and I could sleep in safety and warmth, out of the sleet. Tomorrow would be better. I had enough. I was satisfied that I had, indeed, enough. I said my grace in the fading light, I ate my bread, I went to sleep. In the morning we drove out on the next chapter of life, and I tossed the now green bread that was left. That night though, it was still good. I had enough.

We as permies are like this. We strive to have enough, often by our own hands only, and we learn to define, to us, what is enough. Others may not think so, but. Each person has to figure that one out; and often we need a far lot less than we think.

So we share, how to have enough, how to make sure we have enough, how that can change, and how to show others that you don't need so much, to have, enough.
 
Hans Quistorff
pollinator
Posts: 781
Location: Longbranch, WA
44
chicken goat rabbit solar tiny house wofati
  • Likes 7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
When I first looked at the mime I saw three individuals of different age or by extension different degrees of experience without the means to pay for the best seat in the game of life.  I assumed they were in a free to view area but all of them were young but only one had reach the stature close enough to adult to see over the fence set to limit adults from wandering into prohibited space. I wanted to apply the mime to permies.com

With more than 70 years of homesteading experience I have no problem seeing over the fence here to watch the permaculture game without being right up against the fence. and having been in my own game so long I don't need to pay for a premium seat to observe the advancement in the current game by paying for workshops and certification courses. In fact I can enjoy my maturity by letting the older child have the space at the fence and going and getting a box for the middle child and two boxes for the smallest.
I do that by commenting in the forums and answering questions for those having trouble seeing over the fence or understanding how the game is played.  I think I am getting the equity / equality thing correct because I have been rewarded with apples and even pie for my efforts. So if you are here in the free area show appreciation by doing good. When the little one gets tall enough to see over the fence I may need the two boxes to sit on to see over the fence.
 
Inge Leonora-den Ouden
pollinator
Posts: 567
Location: Meppel (Drenthe, the Netherlands)
66
bike dog forest garden urban
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Dan Boone wrote:
...
There are places where condo towers with balconies overlook professional ballparks and people routinely hold viewing parties on their own balconies; nobody considers that a crime because it isn't.  It's just a leakage in the business model, not worth plugging because there's no practical way at reasonable expense. 

...


Probably the price of those condos is higher than condos without that view ... Maybe even those condo towers were built by the owner of the ball-park for that reason
 
Inge Leonora-den Ouden
pollinator
Posts: 567
Location: Meppel (Drenthe, the Netherlands)
66
bike dog forest garden urban
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
There's ball-game at the other side of the fence ... but what is happening right here, at this side of the fence? What would those three 'persons' see if they turn around and look the other way?
 
David Livingston
steward
Posts: 3559
Location: Anjou ,France
169
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I disagree with some of what Marco said . For me resources are finite as is the earth its how we use them that's important .
Education is a key way of redistribution it should be free and unfetted .
Taxation is how public services are paid for  .
Health is a right
Equal opportunity does not mean everyone is the same but that all should have the same chances - if people  sqander them that's another story
 
Mick Fisch
Posts: 235
8
bee duck fish food preservation forest garden fungi trees woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Interesting comments, both sides directions.  My assumption when I looked at the mime was that the three had worked together voluntarily to reach the solution.  That would be the best solution.  Also, I note that the short guy didn't need continued help from the tall guy, just a one time hand up. 

Referring to the meme, when help stops being voluntary and we allow some outside force (maybe govt) to come and force the tall guy to give his stuff to the short guy we get to the start of most arguments. 

Everyone has a basic right to survive.  Not many would argue that.  How much of my stuff are you entitled to in your struggle to survive?  That is where the debates start. 

My dad has a tough love philosophy.  He is willing to help anyone who is actively trying to improve their situation.  The price of his help though, is that you have to listen to his advice and if you refuse it, he may take his help elsewhere.  His advice is generally pretty blunt, but correct.  The way he phrases it, is "if there's going to be a hook in my mouth (his resources and/or time taken up) then I want a hook in your mouth also (at least as much involved on your part).  It's uncomfortable to be the object of his help, but I think he wants it that way.

I was recently told about a conflict between a couple of women I know.  The first woman made a jealous comment to another woman because the second gal is tall and slim and the first struggles with her weight.  The second gal responded "It's not easy for me either, I watch what I eat, I exercise!"  The first gal said "maybe so, but you were just born that way."  It hurt their relationship and their husbands close friendship.  I think both women were correct in their comments.  Yes, the second gal watches what she eats and exercises, but she "won the genetic lottery", like her mother and sisters, she's tall, slim built and has a high metabolism.  (Interesting point, I think the first gal is much prettier and has a nicer shape than the second gal, but what do I know).

Most of what I see in the US is in a similar vein.  The social programs are such that no one needs to go hungry long term.  The west side of Chicago has some really nice architecture and used to be the upscale part of town.  It's the people living there  now who make it an undesirable and unsafe area.  Desperate, third world poverty isn't really the complaint in Europe, Canada or the US.  It's perceived poverty because others have more.  Most of the poor live a lifestyle that would have seemed decadent to most people 150 years ago, with indoor plumbing, hot and cold water, heating, air conditioning, tv, internet and some sort of transportation (even if it's a scooter).  I've worked with and lived with multiple groups (of various ethnicities) whose primary disadvantage despite their claims, is that:
1       they look down on those who try to learn (calling them yuppies, oreos or apples)
2       they have disfunctional, disastrous families
3       they spend way too much time high or drunk. 
4       they think it's normal for the police to be at the house every week or so for trouble of some sort.
It's a vicious cycle because their children pick up the bad attitudes and habits.  The tragedy is that many of these kids are bright, talented and could shine, but their home life and the attitudes of their parents and peers make it a rare thing for them to escape their lifestyles.  When they do escape and come back to help, they are usually driven out within a few years because they don't fit in anymore.  If they stay, someone makes a movie about it. 

I have an aunt who lived in one of 'those' neighborhoods in California.  When my folks went to visit her, the little girls she cared for asked my mom where her grandkids lived.  She said they were home with their mommies and daddies.  The little girls laughed and wouldn't believe her, they had never heard of kids being with their moms and dads at the same time.  My mom talked to my aunt and my aunt told her that the only stable family in their 200 apt complex to her knowledge was a family who had just immigrated from Taiwan.  There were lots of mommies, lots of kids, lots of boyfriends who rotated around, but no daddies.  My cousin's  boyfriend was just out of jail, but figured he'd be going back soon, because he was a thief.  A few months later he ended up in San Quintin.  None of these people were necessarily bad, they just live the life they and their peers were born to.

There's a line in the move "Second Hand Lions" where an old uncle says something like "It's not our fault you have a terrible mom."  to the main character.   It sucks, but some things can't be fixed with money.

I think I've nailed the real problem with poverty in first world countries (the US anyway).  What the solution is, I'm not sure.  Education of some sort.  Maybe begin with moral education like "you are responsible for your life.  you are responsible for your own children.  You can solve your own problems."  If they choose to pour their life down the drain, you can't save people from themselves.

The other thing needed when someone wants to get out of poverty is a way forward, because there is a 'gap' between being on benefits and fully independant that is sometimes hard to bridge.
 
Shiny ad:
2017 Rocket Mass Heater Workshop Jamboree - 15 workshops in one event
https://permies.com/wiki/63312/permaculture-projects/Rocket-Mass-Heater-Workshop-Jamboree
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!