Willow Feeder movie

What about a level 2 movie and maybe a level 5 addendum/extension that explains the differences. Sort of like a level 2 movie that shows and explains at that level, to share with non permie friends/family. But, then, section 2 shows how to ramp it up to level 5? Design choices and alternatives also of interest

Will be throwing some monies towards y’all either way, but having enjoyed the one at base camp while I was there, of most interest to me is plans/materials list/cut list?/alternatives maybe for building with dimensional lumber vs round wood.

My two sats! :)

I think the whole concept of a willow feeder system is level 5, it isn't something that can be adjusted.

Now I wonder, might a movie on a level 5 topic actually be more likely to draw in a crowd of curious onlookers, even if fewer of them end up implementing the concept in their own lives than with other more conventional projects? Regardless, it will no doubt end up bringing more Willow Feeders into being...

A dollar level is a start - Maybe a short movie outlining how the willow feeder works and some steps
From $100 the full movie plus a plan
Additional $s more movies including low technology for those who don't have it yet or RMH or select a perk
Supporter names
production peeps
director peeps
I think that there is an opportunity to grow the pot with candy (not willow candy though🤪)

Level 1 peeps would be open to what to not flush.  Or something they can buy that makes things better.  But the idea of a willow feeder will be too much.

Level 3 peeps will think that willow feeders are a fascinating idea for others.  They would be open to seeing a youtube video, but they probably would not buy a movie.  They are unlikely to even put in a dollar.

Level 4 peeps might support the kickstarter.

I think we can count on our own level 5 peeps.  


....    so ....   this project makes me really nervous.  For every level 5 person, there are 1000 level 2 peeps.  So we would have 1000 times better success with something that appeals to level 2 peeps.


So I am pretty worried about this.

Suppose we are going to have 200 backers instead of 2000 backers.  Then it makes sense that we sell this movie for $40 per person to pay for all the things.   Andres likes the idea of offering the movie to kickstarter peeps at $10, and then sell the movie after the kickstarter for $25.  I think andres has earned the right to have a stronger say in this sort of thing.  At the same time I feel mighty nervous.  I think to compensate, we should set the "goal" a bit higher than we have in the past.



Putting a kickstarter together is a lot of work.  Making the movie is a lot of work too!  This is all a LOT of work and a lot of gamble.

Paul Fookes wrote:A dollar level is a start - Maybe a short movie outlining how the willow feeder works and some steps
From $100 the full movie plus a plan
Additional $s more movies including low technology for those who don't have it yet or RMH or select a perk
Supporter names
production peeps
director peeps
I think that there is an opportunity to grow the pot with candy (not willow candy though🤪)

Tell me more about "short movie".  How long?  What might be in it?  How long is "the full movie"?

paul wheaton wrote: My concerns:

    - a level 5 movie will sell about 1% as much as a level 2 movie.  I sure hope that this is not the case.

I totally get the concern. A big part of sharing permaculture ideas with a broader audience is presenting them in a way that feels approachable and engaging. Maybe we can address this by structuring the movie in an incremental way, starting with concepts that feel familiar and then gradually layering in the deeper, more advanced ideas. That way, we can pull in a wider audience while still delivering all the specs on the willow feeder system.

Andrés Bernal wrote:...

I totally get the concern. A big part of sharing permaculture ideas with a broader audience is presenting them in a way that feels approachable and engaging. Maybe we can address this by structuring the movie in an incremental way, starting with concepts that feel familiar and then gradually layering in the deeper, more advanced ideas. That way, we can pull in a wider audience while still delivering all the specs on the willow feeder system.

That would be interesting and informative for many who don't know the options.

paul wheaton wrote:Andres, My concerns:

    - if you are gonna sell fewer copies, the price per copy has to be higher.  I agreed that you earned the right to be a lot more in charge on this.  I am worried that you will have fewer backers and at a lower price will mean that you get paid about nothing.  So if you are willing to take risks, then I will also take risks.

I really love the idea of making this movie super accessible to Kickstarter backers. I also think that more people in the permies community, especially those higher on the Wheaton Eco Scale, will jump on board and make it worthwhile. Sharing this human poop system with the world is a big step toward world domination (in the best way), and doing it in a friendly, engaging manner might be the key. We won’t know until we try! I want to believe that enough people care about these topics, and if that’s the case, this will all be so worth it. :)

Andrés Bernal wrote:

paul wheaton wrote: My concerns:

    - a level 5 movie will sell about 1% as much as a level 2 movie.  I sure hope that this is not the case.

I totally get the concern. A big part of sharing permaculture ideas with a broader audience is presenting them in a way that feels approachable and engaging. Maybe we can address this by structuring the movie in an incremental way, starting with concepts that feel familiar and then gradually layering in the deeper, more advanced ideas. That way, we can pull in a wider audience while still delivering all the specs on the willow feeder system.

Maybe the strategy needs to be ....    

level 5 stuff looks cool to people that are at level 3.  level 5 stuff looks crazy to people at level 2.

So maybe the kickstarter page (and video) needs to feel like level 4 stuff instead of level 5.  And we do our damndest to sound appealing to level 2 people.  

So the final movie can be as level 5 as we want.  But all the kickstarter stuff needs to stick to level 4.

paul wheaton wrote:Maybe the strategy needs to be ....    

level 5 stuff looks cool to people that are at level 3.  level 5 stuff looks crazy to people at level 2.

So maybe the kickstarter page (and video) needs to feel like level 4 stuff instead of level 5.  And we do our damndest to sound appealing to level 2 people.  

So the final movie can be as level 5 as we want.  But all the kickstarter stuff needs to stick to level 4.

I really like this approach! By the time people get to the level 5 movie, they’ll have already absorbed all the new information, making willow feeders go from a "wild idea" to something undeniably cool. Sounds like a solid strategy!

paul wheaton wrote:Next step is to get some vague idea of rewards.  Do you want a $1 level?

I think a $1 dollar level is very helpful to attract people who may be on the fence, maybe we can do a poor man's poll here to ask people what they'd like to see in it. Will put out some options in a bit :)

Could a gray water system be included in the plans?  

If it is just for pee and hand washing, a gray water might not really be necessary but if someone is going to build a proper bathroom there could be a shower system with reed and cattail beds.  

Even laundry could be connected to the gray water to have a whole house waste system.  


I love what you have done at Allerton Abbey at Wheaton Labs!  


The gray water flows through these garden beds so the system works all winter and feeds the plants.

If a green house like this could be connected to a willow feeder you could have all the bathroom stuff in one place.

Samantha Lewis wrote:Could a gray water system be included in the plans?  

If it is just for pee and hand washing, a gray water might not really be necessary but if someone is going to build a proper bathroom there could be a shower system with reed and cattail beds.  

Even laundry could be connected to the gray water to have a whole house waste system.  


I love what you have done at Allerton Abbey at Wheaton Labs!  


The gray water flows through these garden beds so the system works all winter and feeds the plants.

If a green house like this could be connected to a willow feeder you could have all the bathroom stuff in one place.

Not sure from what you wrote here Samantha, was the plumbing for the grey water system at Allerton installed when the back wall was repaired recently?

Sounds like you are looking to take the whole idea to level 8, like it!

We're gauging interest in a $1 support tier for the Willow Feeder movie Kickstarter.

Give a thumbs up on this post if you’d support at least at the $1 level if it includes a minimum of 5 artifacts.  

Give a thumbs up on this post if you’d support at least at the $1 level if it includes a minimum of 10 artifacts.  

Give a thumbs up on this post if you’d support at least at the $1 level if we include a draft version of a book on willow feeders.  

Give a thumbs up on this post if you’d support at least at the $1 level if we include a comprehensive alternatives to sewage treatment plants guide.  

Give a thumbs up on this post if you’d support at least at the $1 level if we include detailed plans for a DIY greywater system.  

Give a thumbs up on this post if you’d support at least at the $1 level if we include a step-by-step short video on building a willow feeder.  

Here is a picture down the hall to the bathroom in Cooper Cabin at Wheaton Labs.  



Cooper Cabin has an indoor Willow Feeder and you can see more of this bathroom and get a bit of an idea how it looks from the Wheaton Labs Tour Movie.
Here is the link:
https://permies.com/w/tour

When it is time to put a new can in the willow feeder, This is what it looks like.  



We have a clean plastic trash can. These hold about 32 gallons.  Put a few inches of sawdust or wood shavings in the bottom and a plastic pipe that reaches to about the top of the can.

It is such a simple system, easily repeatable and scalable.  No specialized parts, everything can be found locally.

That would be really exciting to have greywater stuff covered in this too!

I like they way you've run Kickstarters in the past with each reward level offering more and more stuff, so to me 5+ things for the $1 level, the full movie at around $10, and extra stuff such as plans at higher levels sounds good to me. I think keeping the basic movie fairly cheap will bring more people in.

Elizabeth Echeverria wrote:I would totally back this movie! My question is that it seems that the willow feeder method is based on sort of storing the poop for a while and the whole thing drying/staying pretty dry while being stored (apologies if I don't fully understand, and all the more reason for the movie, but that's my understanding anyway). So I would really like to know how well this would work in a humid summer climate--the kind of climate where stored poop might stink more and things don't dry out.

Hello Elizabeth!

You can have a willow feeder in a humid climate.   I would take a little extra care to be sure my wood shavings are nice and dry.    Be sure each deposit is well covered with shavings and be careful not to pee in the can.   If anybody has an oopsie or things ever seem wet or stinky just add more shavings.

This is exactly what I would like and didn't even know how to put into coherent words until I read this. Thank you Kate. I would back it no matter what, But would love this kind of information. Where I live in Alaska outhouses are a normal thing. Would love to help convince others to change to a more useful system that could provide a useable compost as well.

Kate Downham wrote:I would back this as a Kickstarter.

Things I’m most interested in:
• Exactly how the system at Wheaton Labs works and what makes it different from other dry toilet systems
• How to make it not stink
• Getting willow feeders to be so easy to build and manage so that more people will use them
• Plans that anyone can make - maybe an option using the small kind of wheely bin would be good too, so that it can fit into smaller houses
• Maybe plans for an outdoor toilet building
• What to do with the poo if you don’t have enough wheely bins to leave them sitting around for 2 years
• Various options for the carbon stuff to throw in it - what is easiest to grow and process without a chipper and works the best?
• Maybe something about plants to grow as toilet paper alternatives
• It would be lovely to see some sort off basic ‘how to use a willow feeder’ PDF instructions along with the movie, for easy reference

Vickey McDonald wrote:Where I live in Alaska outhouses are a normal thing. Would love to help convince others to change to a more useful system that could provide a useable compost as well.

Hello Vickey!

What kind of a system do you have in Alaska?
Do you use wood chips and sawdust or do you have another material you prefer?  
There are so many options, it is neat to hear what people have found that works for them.

I live in a pretty dry pine and oak forest.  We have a lot of debris that builds up on the forest floor so I just rake that up in summer and use it as my carbon source all year.  

Hi Samantha -  We have a mixed system.  We use a bucket system with sawdust. Since we heat with wood as do many in Alaska there is a ready supply. Where peat moss and such are shipped in and very expensive, while also not available in large quantities.

The buckets are then emptied into a compost style storage area. Then composted for several years, (like 5 or so) with our cold and long winters 1 or 2 years doesn't do much. We also have 10 acres as do all our neighbors. So odor has not been a big issue. Though I would prefer a less noticeable system.  Looking forward to good information on the willow feeders. Though having multiple trash cans full of waste may not be workable here as the plastic tends to disintegrate after being left out in the weather for just a few years. The extreme cold can make them very brittle.

We will see if there are adaptations we can use in our combination of extremely cold sometimes for several weeks at a time and long sunny summer days. I've seen as much as -55 F to 98 F.

Vickey

Samantha Lewis wrote:

Vickey McDonald wrote:Where I live in Alaska outhouses are a normal thing. Would love to help convince others to change to a more useful system that could provide a useable compost as well.

Hello Vickey!

What kind of a system do you have in Alaska?
Do you use wood chips and sawdust or do you have another material you prefer?  
There are so many options, it is neat to hear what people have found that works for them.

I live in a pretty dry pine and oak forest.  We have a lot of debris that builds up on the forest floor so I just rake that up in summer and use it as my carbon source all year.  

Vickey McDonald wrote: We have a mixed system.  We use a bucket system with sawdust. Since we heat with wood as do many in Alaska there is a ready supply.

The buckets are then emptied into a compost style storage area. Then composted for several years, (like 5 or so) with our cold and long winters 1 or 2 years doesn't do much. We also have 10 acres as do all our neighbors. So odor has not been a big issue. Though I would prefer a less noticeable system.  Looking forward to good information on the willow feeders. Though having multiple trash cans full of waste may not be workable here as the plastic tends to disintegrate after being left out in the weather for just a few years. The extreme cold can make them very brittle.

We will see if there are adaptations we can use in our combination of extremely cold sometimes for several weeks at a time and long sunny summer days. I've seen as much as -55 F to 98 F.

Vickey

Hello Vickey!

That sounds great!  I like how using wood heat works so well with having a willow feeder system.  Always plenty of wood sawdust.

I have also had the trouble of plastics degrading from extreme temperatures and powerful sunshine.   At Wheaton Labs, they built a shed called the Willow Candy Warehouse.



The cans are stored here until they are ready to be distributed to the willow trees.  Shading the cans protects them from degrading in the sun.  I think if you put walls around a structure like this it would help a bit in your extremely cold Alaskan winters.

Here is video of a trip to the Willow Candy Warehouse at Wheaton Labs.  

Andrés Bernal wrote:Give a thumbs up on this post if you’d support at least at the $1 level if we include a draft version of a book on willow feeders.  

It looks like this is the winner of the poor man's poll.  

I remember we did a webinar-like thing a little while ago.  I wonder if I still have my notes for that somewhere.

paul wheaton wrote:

Maybe the strategy needs to be ....    

level 5 stuff looks cool to people that are at level 3.  level 5 stuff looks crazy to people at level 2.

So maybe the kickstarter page (and video) needs to feel like level 4 stuff instead of level 5.  And we do our damndest to sound appealing to level 2 people.  

So the final movie can be as level 5 as we want.  But all the kickstarter stuff needs to stick to level 4.

What about using the "off grid" buzz word for the Kickstarter?  Maybe "low cost", too?  Perhaps the "low observability" nature of such a system (though different verbiage is probably more helpful)?  That might catch the attention of (Level 1/2) people who have this vague notion that they'd like to have some bit of dirt patch paradise some day, even if they are currently stuck in a 4th floor walk-up growing tomatoes in a pot on the window sill, or out in the 'burbs with an HOA that prevents line drying laundry.  Or, of people who have been mugged by the reality of the high prices of installing a "proper" and "approved" drain field system at their weekend only usage recreational property.

Broadening the appeal of the Kickstarter, then giving them even more than they asked for (Level 5 stuff) upon delivery, seems like a reasonable approach to me.  But, I'm just an engineer, not a marketing guru...

Kevin Olson wrote:What about using the "off grid" buzz word for the Kickstarter?  Maybe "low cost", too?  Perhaps the "low observability" nature of such a system (though different verbiage is probably more helpful)?  That might catch the attention of (Level 1/2) people who have this vague notion that they'd like to have some bit of dirt patch paradise some day, even if they are currently stuck in a 4th floor walk-up growing tomatoes in a pot on the window sill, or out in the 'burbs with an HOA that prevents line drying laundry.  Or, of people who have been mugged by the reality of the high prices of installing a "proper" and "approved" drain field system at their weekend only usage recreational property.

Broadening the appeal of the Kickstarter, then giving them even more than they asked for (Level 5 stuff) upon delivery, seems like a reasonable approach to me.  But, I'm just an engineer, not a marketing guru...

Hello Kevin!  

Buzz words are great!  Off- grid and Low cost should help get the project seen by more people on kickstarter for sure.
We have so much stuff to say.  Sometimes finding the words to use that other people can relate to is what makes all the difference.  

Thank you !!

This is a fun little placard posted inside the willow feeders at Wheaton Labs.

I like this video.  
There are so many little touches of beauty at Wheaton Labs.  I am often surprised at the attention to detail that Paul has and his ability to inspire that level of care and diligence in others.



The marbles really shine a nice light into the willow feeder.

I wanted to give you guys a bit of a step by step of how these are built.




Once the structure is all framed in and the sheeting is up, we get to make it pretty on the inside.




I think these are super great because I get to have the privacy I want and still get to experience all the beauty of nature.

On a deep of all things alternative building I stumbled across this video. It’s been in the back of my mind ever since. Between this project, what I find here on permies and what GeoShip is doing for the future of housing, I’m really excited about the future of how we can live.

Aaananda Permaculture Project near Chandigarh, India
The sustainable architecture at Aanandaa is designed and directed by the Studio Aureole team lead by Architect Jitesh Malik.

As it relates to this topic it seems to answer a lot of the questions about solid waste and what to do with it to form a closed-loop system.

Anoni Laik wrote:
Between this project, what I find here on permies and what GeoShip is doing for the future of housing, I’m really excited about the future of how we can live.

Aaananda Permaculture Project near Chandigarh, India
The sustainable architecture at Aanandaa is designed and directed by the Studio Aureole team lead by Architect Jitesh Malik.

As it relates to this topic it seems to answer a lot of the questions about solid waste and what to do with it to form a closed-loop system.

Hello Anoni!

This is a really fun video!   Such a beautiful house.
Thank you for posting this!

We just made this spiffy animation of the bin system for the willow feeder that will go into the movie.



What do you think?

Sharp!

But I thought I heard Paul mention at some point that the bin should only be allowed to get about 1/4 to 1/3 [edit: uups, meant 3/4 to 2/3- early morning post...] full. Would that have referred to before filling the rest with saw dust?

A shot from the willow warehouse, where the willow candy goes to rest for two years:

Another thing I really like about this system is its loopy design, once you're done with a batch you have a rinsed can ready to go and get filled again: