suggestions for the new look and feel

Someone hire Olof quick! I like your sense of aesthetic!

One small tweak would be appreciated. When not logged in, on threads with multiple pages, would you consider either an endless/infinite scroll or maybe just repeat the pages numbers at the bottom.

If I am reading the first page of a multi-page thread, I get to the bottom of the page and have to scroll to the top of the page to get to page 2.

FYI - I just noticed page numbers are at the bottom when I am logged in, so this must only apply when you are not logged in.

Olof: kinda hoping to see the overalls get back in. And then maybe we can do the home page overhaul.

As for the forums overhaul: I'm open to it - but the look and feel would need to work for coderanch too. And, I have to confess, the browns theme has really gotten to feel like "home" to me.

Lazlo Rose wrote:One small tweak would be appreciated. When not logged in, on threads with multiple pages, would you consider either an endless/infinite scroll or maybe just repeat the pages numbers at the bottom.

If I am reading the first page of a multi-page thread, I get to the bottom of the page and have to scroll to the top of the page to get to page 2.

FYI - I just noticed page numbers are at the bottom when I am logged in, so this must only apply when you are not logged in.

Oh! right!

I think that for non-logged in users, it should be at the bottom of each of the pages.

Logged in users get top and bottom. But it seems for non-logged in users, it should be just the bottom.

paul wheaton wrote:

Lazlo Rose wrote:One small tweak would be appreciated. When not logged in, on threads with multiple pages, would you consider either an endless/infinite scroll or maybe just repeat the pages numbers at the bottom.

If I am reading the first page of a multi-page thread, I get to the bottom of the page and have to scroll to the top of the page to get to page 2.

FYI - I just noticed page numbers are at the bottom when I am logged in, so this must only apply when you are not logged in.

Oh! right!

I think that for non-logged in users, it should be at the bottom of each of the pages.

Logged in users get top and bottom. But it seems for non-logged in users, it should be just the bottom.

Yes, definitely have it at the bottom for non-logged in! When I first found the forums, I was really confused by the lack of page numbers, not realizing they were at the top. And, then, when I found they were at the top, it was really annoying to have to scroll to the top to get to the next page. It actually kept me from exploring the forums for a long time, because it was so frustrating. Having them at the bottom should help keep people here once they find permies .

paul wheaton wrote:Olof: kinda hoping to see the overalls get back in. And then maybe we can do the home page overhaul.

As for the forums overhaul: I'm open to it - but the look and feel would need to work for coderanch too. And, I have to confess, the browns theme has really gotten to feel like "home" to me.

Okay what do you think to this??
think ill do some other versions with the header background in a different perspective perhaps just to see but it kind of still works with the overall guy almost looking like he is hovering/flying above the landscape a bit superman like..
I might try one version where it gives the sense that you are looking up to him and the buildings landscape is seen from below..

oh btw i think the theme would work well for coderanch too, i guess there would have to be a bit of reskining i perhaps

paul wheaton wrote: I have to confess, the browns theme has really gotten to feel like "home" to me.

do you mean you think its a bit too much white on the forum page designs that proposed?
i thought i go neutral so both brown and purple people would enjoy it only kidding, i could try to add a touch more brown there

Very IMPORTANT
to always keep in mind
that life is to short
and it's pays to keep a Smile....

So when you want to move your rocket mass heater
just grab your Bicycle
image

Olof,

I think it looks great!

If you can give us some html-ish stuff, I think we can mash it to the permies.com home page!

One other quick idea...

When you are not logged in reading posts, and you see a thread you want to reply to... hitting reply does nothing, so you need to log in. After you log in, it takes you to the homepage, so you then have to find the post all over again. I know the workarounds to make it slightly less annoying, but I imagine this is frustrating usability for most users to the point you miss out on post replies.

I think you can put a small bit of code on the login link that passes the original page url to the login page, and then the login page can redirect you back to the original page after successful login. I have seen the original page url passed in the query string.

Lazlo Rose wrote:One other quick idea...

When you are not logged in reading posts, and you see a thread you want to reply to... hitting reply does nothing, so you need to log in. After you log in, it takes you to the homepage, so you then have to find the post all over again. I know the workarounds to make it slightly less annoying, but I imagine this is frustrating usability for most users to the point you miss out on post replies.

I think you can put a small bit of code on the login link that passes the original page url to the login page, and then the login page can redirect you back to the original page after successful login. I have seen the original page url passed in the query string.

That's a great idea Lazlo, and we are going to implement it soon.

I merged your stuff with the following thread. I hope that is okay by you.

I've started dipping my toes in the ski lodge to get used to using the new view, as it seems inevitable. One thing I've noticed is that in "Profile for Jason Silberschneider» Messages posted by Jason Silberschneider " the posts are hyperlinked, but I can't select the hyperlinks to go to those posts.

I'm not sure if this is a known bug, or that being able to select hyperlinks in my profile is now considered a "value added" feature that may require parting with cash to access.

Jason Silberschneider wrote:I've started dipping my toes in the ski lodge to get used to using the new view, as it seems inevitable. One thing I've noticed is that in "Profile for Jason Silberschneider» Messages posted by Jason Silberschneider " the posts are hyperlinked, but I can't select the hyperlinks to go to those posts.

I'm not sure if this is a known bug, or that being able to select hyperlinks in my profile is now considered a "value added" feature that may require parting with cash to access.

What browser and operating system are you using? When I go to the messages in my profile, I can click on them just fine and they take me to the appropriate thread.

Ah, good point! The only opportunity I get to visit the site is at work. The computers here run IE9 on what appears to be Windows 7 Enterprise.

I'm going to make an effort to try this on my MintLinux computer running Firefox when I get home. If that works, then please disregard as it would therefore be a problem of outdated IE. I have no idea why work is still insisting on using IE.

Edit: On a hunch, I logged onto the site on my mobile, and changed over to the non-mobile site using current view. I was able to click on links in My Posts from there, so it's most likely an IE problem.

Cassie: When I had this problem, I followed the instructions up the top, namely - "Note: You are currently viewing our new look. If you have any feedback or want to report any issues then please create a new topic in this forum. You can also switch back to the old view. "

The hyperlink there creates a new topic in Tinkering with this Site. Would it possible for that hyperlink to create a new post in this thread to keep everything tidy?

Lazlo Rose wrote:One other quick idea...

When you are not logged in reading posts, and you see a thread you want to reply to... hitting reply does nothing, so you need to log in. After you log in, it takes you to the homepage, so you then have to find the post all over again. I know the workarounds to make it slightly less annoying, but I imagine this is frustrating usability for most users to the point you miss out on post replies.

I think you can put a small bit of code on the login link that passes the original page url to the login page, and then the login page can redirect you back to the original page after successful login. I have seen the original page url passed in the query string.

Yes! this happens to me all the time....I think I'm just going to take a peek so I don't log in and then I decide I'd like to give a thumbs up or reply so I log in and am sent to the forums page. I can find the thread again in my 'history' although even then it doesn't take me back to that particular post that I was interested in.

I notice that it happens in both views. I think for new users especially it might be frustrating when they haven't understood how to navigate the site yet.

Judith Browning wrote:

Yes! this happens to me all the time....I think I'm just going to take a peek so I don't log in and then I decide I'd like to give a thumbs up or reply so I log in and am sent to the forums page. I can find the thread again in my 'history' although even then it doesn't take me back to that particular post that I was interested in.

I notice that it happens in both views. I think for new users especially it might be frustrating when they haven't understood how to navigate the site yet.

Yup. We are going to fix this.

Jason Silberschneider wrote:Cassie: When I had this problem, I followed the instructions up the top, namely - "Note: You are currently viewing our new look. If you have any feedback or want to report any issues then please create a new topic in this forum. You can also switch back to the old view. "

The hyperlink there creates a new topic in Tinkering with this Site. Would it possible for that hyperlink to create a new post in this thread to keep everything tidy?

That's a good point. I think that might be a good idea to have it go to this thread. I will ask if it can be done!

Here's my little tome on the new look!

Thread info on forum pages:

I noticed right away that in the recent posts list, there is no listing of the person who made the thread, or the person to last respond with an answer, as was on the original site. Sometimes, I tend to click on something because I enjoy a specific person's take on things, and find that I learn a lot from this particular person in general. I might be more apt to connect with more posts if I knew that it was started by someone, or responded to by someone who I follow a bit.

...Or I want to know if anyone has responded to the thread since I last posted, or I want to know whether the person whom I was querying was the one who responded. I changed this in my user preferences, but it's still not as simple as the old look, and this will only help when I'm logged in. A non-member lurker should be able to see who posted a thread or response. I agree with the sentiments that a column-based thread list with separate title, replies, original post name/date, last post name/date, etc. columns is easier to use (like the one currently used for "Recent topics"). I also noted that on the "Recent topics" page, the thread links are laid out well enough that they don't need alternating colors to differentiate them (thereby solving another problem mentioned in this thread). The thread list also doesn't tell me the date of the original posting (I don't recall if the forums used to give that info or not, but they should).

Which leads to, of course...

Matu Collins wrote:I miss having the date at the top of each thread. I just read a "similar thread" and all it said was "six years ago" and a more recent thread said "twelve hours ago" The normal view has date and time.

If you hover over the "posted x ago" in the thread view, it pops up the date and time of posting. In the forum view (list of threads), however, this does not work. In both cases, I would find a "Jan xx, 2016" format to be much more useful than the "x ago" format. Anyone can tell that 2015 came before 2016, and Dec 09, 2015 came before Dec 10, 2015. In the current format, however, the latter two dates both show up as "1 month ago," which isn't particularly useful. As of today, "1 month ago" could still be referring to something that was posted before Thanksgiving. If you really want to include "posted x ago" for a certain sub-crowd on Permies, why not reverse the current system and show "posted Jan xx, 2016" (or xx/xx/xxxx, etc.) as the default, and put "posted x ago" in a mouseover pop-up?

The current pop-up format could also be used for details like original poster, last post by, and date of original posting if you really want to avoid any clutter, though that would be useless on tablets or any device with a touchscreen.


Too many columns/sidebars:

I can see where the comment about four sidebars came from. Currently, forum pages have five columns: Forum categories, best ever, best this year, most recent, and about this forum/navigation. 95% of the time, I care about one of these: Most recent. The others are usually superfluous. But the superfluous columns take up 70% of the screen, even though I'm not using them (I have a small 10" screen, more on this below). Hiding the Forum categories helps a little - then the superfluous stuff only takes up 60% of the screen. I think we need a different button graphic for "hide categories", though. I didn't realize that's what the eye did until I was reading through this thread, because an eye is not a normal button for this function. I'm used to hiding things with + and -, < and >, and maybe others that I can't remember at the moment, but not an eyeball. Though with a little poking around, many people will figure this out.

To better handle the "best of" listings, we could: 1. Give them show/hide buttons. These could be standard [+]/[-] buttons above the rest of the most recent posts - they could start minimized and would only take up two lines when not in use. 2. Put them into their own subforums (e.g., "click here to see best posts of this forum"). 3. (less ideal, but ok) Merge them into one column, with "best this year" above "best ever" (or vice versa). If you want to see more "best" threads, go to the second page, just like you have to to see additional "recent" threads. This still takes up a full column for something that probably won't be used much.


Width of pages:

This is probably the biggest annoyance for me, though it's certainly not unique to Permies. I do almost all of my computer work on a netbook with a 10" screen, running at a resolution of 1024x600. Permies as a whole seems to be designed for a wider screen, and so text and other things tend to spill off the edge. I don't mind when a sidebar that I don't use runs off the edge of the screen, but we all know how annoying it is when a text block is wider than your screen, so have to scroll back and forth sideways to read the page content. On most of the pages, I can sort of make it work, though it's not ideal. Not so on the reply window, unless I reduce the font size beyond the point at which it starts straining my eyes significantly. Trying to use the reply page with my regular font size (which works fine on 90% of web pages) is kind of like bathing a skinned knee in vinegar (illustrated in my screenshot below).


Navigation buttons:

A couple notes here. First, the text on the "permaculture artisans" button (forum categories) is too wide, and so it spills over the edges of the button. This doesn't appear to be affected by changing my font size. Second (also in forum categories), the capitalization is varied. All the categories are lowercase except for Education and The Cider Press.

Third, I was wondering if for consistency you might want to change the little round buttons on the left side of the page below the header to have the same gold shadow effect as the buttons with text nearby (see screenshot). The buttons I'm referring to are Home, Forum listing, and Hide categories.


Miscellaneous:

Nicole Alderman wrote:I just noticed that the new forum design does not show us when people joined when I'm reading through a thread. I really enjoyed seeing this information as I read, as I could see when someone was a newby and should be welcomed/given lots of help....

Agreed. Even with the hover over feature, this still isn't accessible enough.

I also agree on the need for breadcrumbs. If a post appears in multiple forums, you can just do breadcrumbs for the forum it was originally posted in. I mean, I would definitely enjoy three parallel breadcrumbs if a post was in three forums, but I can see the desire for simplicity.

Nicole Alderman wrote:As there are so many various little hidden features, I think we're really going to need a "How to use this site" sticky thread

I think there are a bit too many little hidden features (though this is not entirely new). Some of the hiding has made things look "nice" and "spiffy," but at a high cost. It's sort of like the old Powerpoint dilemma: Would I rather have my presentation look really modern so people think I'm competent, or have it organized for maximum usefulness? In my opinion, >90% of website changes motivated by the desire to be modern or to use cool functionality reduce usability.

That's all for now, thanks!

Just noticed a thing. the rate forums button is on the right, for example when I go on growies forum, where there are listed all the forums in the growies. Why not put the rate button even or only under the name of the forum once you get into it. Lets say I visit Huglekultur forum why not put the rate forum button there under or in the hugelkutlur name box

I love the new look and feel and the website, and said as much in my blog http://www.powellacres.com

An idea I would love to see:

Wouldn't it be cool if you could somehow flag creative recycling ideas (also called upcycling) so if one wanted to feed their brain, they could go through them all from one to another no matter what topic they were in. . .

Sherri Lynn wrote:An idea I would love to see:

Wouldn't it be cool if you could somehow flag creative recycling ideas (also called upcycling) so if one wanted to feed their brain, they could go through them all from one to another no matter what topic they were in. . .

Well we already have the recycling and repurposing forum. We also have the facility to make a thread show up in more than one forum, so if you see a post that you think should show up in this one, hit the report button and ask us to add it. Once we've found them all you will be able to browse them at your leisure.

Great to know there is that capability. I hope everyone will help me do that.

Now that I've had a chance to get used to it, I'm really enjoying the new look.

One request, when you have time. Could you put a button on the bottom of the page that sends us back to 'forums'? I didn't notice it wasn't there before because on the computer I can just press the home key, but on my tablet I have to scroll to the top, or hop somewhere else to get to forums.
Thanks.

I got logged out of my account a couple days ago and again today (I didn't tell it to keep me logged in), so I got to view the forums from an "outsider's" perspective. I recall reading earlier in this thread about how the eyeball button (hide categories) and the page navigation buttons within long threads (Page 1, Page 2...,) were going to be handled, and at the time I thought it sounded like a bad idea to basically make these "premium" (i.e., logged-in) features. Now that I've experienced it without those options again, I think it's a really bad idea, especially on the page navigation buttons. This is not a "premium feature": it's basic functionality that is always assumed - until you run into the strange permaculture website where they violated the principle. Please put page navigation buttons at both the top and bottom of each page (where it's relevant, I mean) for everyone, regardless of whether they're logged in or not. For your own sake, please don't try to ignore this standard. If you think it will encourage people to sign up/log in, it won't. It'll work for some existing members (because the alternative will be painful to use). It will also backfire for some members and discourage them from using permies. And for visitors who aren't yet members, they'll just assume that you forgot to include some important features, or that you didn't have a real developer to design the site. I don't think that will benefit permies in any way either short- or long-term.

The other thing I noticed when I went to log back in was that afterwards it redirected me to the forums home page, not the page I was on and wanted to reply to (I think this was mentioned before, too). I didn't think this was a hard feature to set up in the forum design (it's pretty standard on web forums), and it would make the forums a lot more usable. As it was, I had to go back two pages in my history to the thread I was viewing, and then refresh the page and wait for it to load before I could hit the reply button.

Thanks for looking into these!

Just wanted to say that I'm loving the new home page. Very spiffy and easy to read.

A couple comments on the new forum theme:

- It's hard on my eyes to read black text on brown back ground, specifically the buttons in the left column

- When I want to navigate to a specific forum, I click on a button (e.g. "growies") in the left column, then have to move my mouse all the way to the right side of the screen to go to e.g. the hugelkultur forum. That's quite a bit of friction in the navigation.

Sam Boisseau wrote:A couple comments on the new forum theme:

- It's hard on my eyes to read black text on brown back ground, specifically the buttons in the left column

- When I want to navigate to a specific forum, I click on a button (e.g. "growies") in the left column, then have to move my mouse all the way to the right side of the screen to go to e.g. the hugelkultur forum. That's quite a bit of friction in the navigation.

Isn't the hugelkultur Forum already on the right side at the very beginning? If not, it is really easy to get it to show up there.

Replace my random example with a non-"top forum" such as education - kids...

My point wasn't about accessing the hugelkultur forum specifically, it was that secondary navigation is usually connected to the primary navigation. Here they are separated to the left and right side of screen and they look very different. Therefore navigation isn't that intuitive.

The new Permies became unusable for me when my browser updated to: FireFox 45.0. (Or perhaps a change on the site coincided with the upgrade).

I was trying to respond to the thread: https://permies.com/forums/posts/list/52591
A blank page showed for a long time. The browser acted hung up.
I Couldn't scroll through the page even after it was displayed.
I noticed the same thing about several other pages.
I tried in safe mode with the same results.
I felt like I was using a dial-up modem again.

Switching back to old view, resulted in snappy display of the contents, and quick scrolling.

Edited to add, that after using the old view for a while, I re-visited the site as a not-loggied-in-guest, and noticed that scrolling was pretty much slow all over the new site. Logging in got me back to the old site, and snappy scrolling.

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:The new Permies became unusable for me when my browser updated to: FireFox 45.0. (Or perhaps a change on the site coincided with the upgrade).

This is the third day I've been having problems, and I've finally given up and switched to chrome. When did your problems start, Joseph?

Burra Maluca wrote:This is the third day I've been having problems, and I've finally given up and switched to chrome. When did your problems start, Joseph?

I've been busy farming the past few days, so wasn't on Permies much. I first noticed the slowness on the 11th. I don't remember if that was before or after the browser upgrade... New Permies seems to be the only site behaving slowly.

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:

Burra Maluca wrote:This is the third day I've been having problems, and I've finally given up and switched to chrome. When did your problems start, Joseph?

I've been busy farming the past few days, so wasn't on Permies much. I first noticed the slowness on the 11th. I don't remember if that was before or after the browser upgrade... New Permies seems to be the only site behaving slowly.

Me too! Burra already has my communications about it...this morning even the old view was funny, but now things are normal in the old view and I still can't use the new one and it had been working great until three days ago or so. I had finally switched myself over to the new view all of the time several weeks ago and all was fine until this.
Now I notice a funny thing when I give a thumbs up in the old view... it calls it 'undefined' under the thumbs up, probably not related, just odd.

still using firefox with windows 7.

Not sure if this is the right forum for this and if not, please move it wherever it belongs.

A tiny suggestion. I would love the actual date on the forum posts rather than 2 weeks or 5 months ago. (Perhaps this has been asked and answered in the past and if so, I apologize.) I read posts where people say, "I just put out the XYZ" or "every year about this time I ..." But without a month in there I have no idea what that might mean.

I am loving this site though and each visit I feel like I learn something more.

Susan Taylor Brown wrote:Not sure if this is the right forum for this and if not, please move it wherever it belongs.

A tiny suggestion. I would love the actual date on the forum posts rather than 2 weeks or 5 months ago. (Perhaps this has been asked and answered in the past and if so, I apologize.) I read posts where people say, "I just put out the XYZ" or "every year about this time I ..." But without a month in there I have no idea what that might mean.

I am loving this site though and each visit I feel like I learn something more.

I think it might have been mentioned here, or maybe another thread. But, you're not alone in this desire! But, if you hover your mouse over the "2 weeks ago" you can see the actual date and time (same thing as hovering over a person's name and seeing when they joined). I'd perfer to do away entirely with the "2 weeks ago" thing, but there is thankfully a way to see the actual date and time!

I hope that helps!