Waste, Landfills and 'Throw Away' Engineering

Today at the Fisher Price house an appliance may have breathed it's last.

It is the electric hot water kettle.  In a communal environment this is a great asset.  Hot water is ready when each person needs it.  The heating is done slowly, so there is not the drain and waste that can happen from 20 individual stove-top boilings.  And at the moment, it appears that the kettle is no longer doing its job.

Jocelyn made a comment that it had been repaired once before, for $75.  And it is only a $100 appliance.

Being that I am a frugal individual, I would very hesitantly ever consider spending $75 to repair a used $100 item.  But since the alternative is to "throw it away(into the landfill)", I can see wisdom in choosing to spend money on a repair.

Thus I started down a small rabbit hole of thought and ponderance.
- is it 'worth it' to pay 75% of retail to repair a broken appliance?
- is it a responsible action to repair these appliances(from refrigerators to washing machines to coffee makers) when the repair costs are so ridiculous in comparison to their retail cost?
- what are the costs of living a 'low waste' lifestyle?

So firstly, is it worth it?  IF this appliance is broken again, then I would say, "no, it was not worth it to pay $75 to repair it the first time, and is not worth it to repair it again."  If it is broken, BUT there is a warranty from the original repair that will permit it to be repaired for free or for perhaps a $10 or $20 part or service fee, then MAYBE it is worth it.  However, if the repair requires inputs of gasoline or shipping expenses... then again, "NO, it is not worth it."

But, is it a responsible action?  Yes, possibly/probably.  If you have the monetary means to pay for repairs, even when it would be as cheap or cheaper to simply replace the appliance, you are doing a good service thus:
1. By repairing and using the appliance you are keeping this 'appliance landfill occupancy' at one, instead of two (or three or four).
2. Your are saving the natural resources, their refinement and the likely toxic byproducts that would be required and utilized in demand and manufacture of additional units. So you are not adding pressure on mining or manufacture.
3. You are providing income to a local individual that you know and may very much want to support. (assumes the more positive arrangement where the repair is done locally and not shipped out to be repaired.)
Or No, possibly/probably if:
1. Despite your intention and the repair man's attempt at repair, he/she is unsuccessful and the appliance is sent to the landfill anyway.
- and this being after you expend some resources (gasoline, time, money) That you would have otherwise used more wisely or for more positive and productive efforts
2. IF the repair costs, that you insist on making, remove money and time from your hands that would otherwise gone to doing EPIC SHIT!  And so epic shit doesn't get done.  And so, over time, the loss in positive productivity is so much greater than the negative effect of simply replacing the appliance with a new one would have caused upon the environment(mining, petroleum burn, etc)

The costs of living a low waste lifestyle are certainly measurable in terms of 'time'.  It takes little time to drop the broken (small) appliance into the dumpster and hop onto Amazon and order a new one.  It takes significant time find a local repairman.  More time to find one you trust and want to support.  It takes time and gasoline to drop off and pickup the (hopefully) repaired appliance.  It takes self control and relaxation efforts to deal with the cost and the disappointment(when an appliance is ultimately un-repairable).

So, how much positive soil improvement (which is often very relaxing and beneficial to one's mental health) could have been accomplished with the money and time that was spent on repairing mechanical and electrical appliances.  So much more community building and people care could have been done instead of stressing over the 'landfill impact' of this one broken appliance.

Now I hope you can see that I am not determining or deciding which is the best route to go.  I will lament that 'planned obsolescence' is hurtful to our environment as well as to our pocket books and our soil.
ALSO, I will remind everyone that if you buy the cheapest model, you are pretty much GUARANTEEING a large measure of intentional or incidental 'planned obsolescence', and therefore it is always the more positive choice to choose the best quality item, even when it may cost three or four times as much.

Wouldn't it be great if we moved intentionally toward engineering items that are more durable AND could be easily and effectively repaired?  Wouldn't it be great if every community had multiple handymen and repairmen that fixed broken items and saved them (for a while longer) from the ticking time bombs of suburbia (the landfills!)?

I am interested to hear your thoughts and your personal 'life decisions' in the matter of paying for repairs.

Peace

I might throw it away, but it depends...

.....

I have a tractor.
I want a new tractor.
I really love shiny new tractors.
Shiny new tractors cost a lot of money.

My tractor was bought in 1999 for $14,200 and has been paid for years. So far I have put on a new fan belt, some batteries, and last year a new 4x4 gear because I was really reefing on it loading rock. I got good credit and could buy a Kubota tomorrow, but just because someone can, should they? Sometimes restraint is good.

In this case, I figure for $1700 I can fix a host of problems on my tractor and make it like new again...minus the shiny paint. $1700 is a lot cheaper than the $19,000 it would take to replace it. That is a lot of money, and it still has about 10 more years left in it I figure.

...

I had a bulldozer
I love bulldozers
I can do a lot with a bulldozer

But I sold one of my bulldozers even though it was 30 years old and in good running order. WHY? Because I kept fixing the same problems. Not patchwork, binder twine fixing, but real fixes that kept breaking. I could never seem to get the starter to work, and after 2 years of ownership, the track adjusters were just as lousy as when I got it.

...

So with the kettle, it has been fixed and yet broke again? Kudo's to whomever decided to fix it the first time, but IF the kettle broke the same part again, then yeah I would throw it out, repurpose it, whatever. BUT if it was a different part that broke, then I might go ahead and fix it again. The dump rats are known for saying, "I fixed a $500 ______________ for a $1 part", and be telling the truth.

Reocurring break downs is where I draw the line.

yah its ridiculous that the repear almost cost the same as the aplience

i usally try to fix it myself i have fun though taking thinks apart and seeing how they work
and most thing are easy to fix with the internet now and cheap (execpt for computers circit board im clueless)
like are washing maschine all it needed was a 20 dollar piece and it toke like a hour for me to do and they where going to charge like hundred of dollars  to fix
there is a pile of scrap i wasnt able to fix in my yard lol, but they have cool parts that i might use latter

i also dont buy new things very much because im sensitive to the off gassing of new plastic and glues

but if its to stress full to fix yourself and or get repaired then i just buy a new one

My inlaws just bought a $750 clothes washer because the agitator on their old one broke.

There are plastic pawls inside that wear out. They cost about $3 and all it takes is a 9/16 socket and some extensions to get to it. I realize they did not know, but a 5 minute search on Youtube would have told them that.

Travis Johnson wrote:My inlaws just bought a $750 clothes washer because the agitator on their old one broke.

There are plastic pawls inside that wear out. They cost about $3 and all it takes is a 9/16 socket and some extensions to get to it. I realize they did not know, but a 5 minute search on Youtube would have told them that.

After not having a working dryer for 2 months, I YouTubed it and found out which part was suspect and ordered, replaced and fixed it for less than $15.  That was 6 weeks ago.

It wasn't that hard, but I did put if off for 2 months because it wasn't something I had done before.  I have passed my phase of "I just love to take apart and tinker with things!"  But I did feel a sense of accomplishment once I had done it! ;-D

Can't tell you how many times I've fixed my old washer.

Just do as we do in my family, if it's broke fix it, can't fix it then scrap it.

We scrap out everything before it leave my house. All metal gets sold to the scrap yard, recyclables go in the recyclable bin at the local convenience center, the leftover e-waste is picked up at the dump by someone who recycles it, the only thing that goes to the landfill is the useless and unrecyclable bits of plastic

When I was in college I thought this was the most valuable asset:






https://www.amazon.com/Norpro-Immersion-Electric-Portable-Reheater/

The immersion heater is a step on the right direction.
Separating the heating element from the vessel makes repairs more likely to occur .
Also, no circuitry to worry about.
I'm not sure what took 75$ bucks to do, but if it didn't involve printed circuits  (and probable even if it did) it wasn't worth it.
Actually at $75.00, that's worth it for me to learn how to do it for myself.


Also, what about a stainless steel vacume insulated flask?
That way heated  water stays hot for the next person.
They work,really well, for at least 24 hours in my expirience.

Fundamentally, you don't need that crappy appliance, you need(want) readily available hot water.
Even an insta-hot water heater might work better,being a permanent fixture not subject to the same abuses.

I also scrap everything.
I check the curb weight before buying a used car, so I know,roughly what I will get if I must scrap it.

Anne Miller wrote:When I was in college I thought this was the most valuable asset:






https://www.amazon.com/Norpro-Immersion-Electric-Portable-Reheater/

When I worked for the railroad, they paid us $30 per day in per diem. Being a little cheap with my money, I realized that if I stayed at a hotel that had a continental breakfast, I could pocket the $6.50 a day for breakfast, then using the iron in my hotel room I could heat up cans of food for .47 cents, or even fry eggs if I covered the surface with tin foil as the irons have those !@#$%^Y little holes in them. More then once I set off a smoke detector, but I ALWAYS saved $8.50 a day for lunch. And of course the locomotives have hot plates in them so I could cook up dinner on the rails, saving me $15. Yep...pocketed an extra $30 a day...$210 a week! $840 a month!

It never is about how much money you make, it is about how much money you save.

Most people look at those curtesy irons as a way to get wrinkles out, I looked at it like a stove!!

T. Gardner wrote:Can't tell you how many times I've fixed my old washer.

Just do as we do in my family, if it's broke fix it, can't fix it then scrap it.

We scrap out everything before it leave my house. All metal gets sold to the scrap yard, recyclables go in the recyclable bin at the local convenience center, the leftover e-waste is picked up at the dump by someone who recycles it, the only thing that goes to the landfill is the useless and unrecyclable bits of plastic

Yeah, mostly the same here.

Less so over the last 5 years.  But that is still our modus operandi 85% of the time!!

William Bronson wrote:

I also scrap everything.
I check the curb weight before buying a used car, so I know,roughly what I will get if I must scrap it.

This one made me chuckle!

I thought this 'value' was more significant.  But last I checked, even a heavy 1989 Suburban only fetches $400 at most.  And maybe only $250.

The scrap metal/iron market is very depressed right now.

Some things to look at before throwing out the electric hot water kettle. Is it stainless steel with no plastic parts?  Can it be repurposed?  

My problem with most things is if we cannot repair it ourselves there is no one to repair it or it costs too much in shipping to return it to the manufacturer for repair.

The internet is bliss, Repair Repair Repair!

I think this is the kind of thing that needs to be considered before purchase, not only examining purchases to see whether or not they can be easily disassembled and how many unrecyclable or irreplaceable parts they contain, but, as brought up by the issue of the immersion heater, whether the item being considered or the way of doing being used is the best way.

I love the idea of scrapping stuff, selling the valuable scrap, even if it takes an amount of stockpiling over time to justify a trip to the scrappers, and recycling as much as can be after.

-CK

It's a hobby for me using every bit of life out of things. Repairing, rebuilding, repurposing!
It's fun, and I'm not out anything if I fail.

I'm an electronics technician by trade, so all of my electronics from lamps to clocks to computers are used until there is nothing left.
But anything else also- The swing blade is repaired with a piece of scrap steel, the old butter knife is shaped on the grinder into a wood working tool,etc.

Even when I buy something new I look at it and think "what is the quality of this item and it's parts? Will I be able to repair this/ repurpose this someday?"

Cris Bessette wrote:  I'm an electronics technician by trade, so all of my electronics from lamps to clocks to computers are used until there is nothing left.  

Chris, has it gotten where finding electronic parts is becoming a problem?

The only place we have is Radio Shack and when we ask for something the guy sends us to unrelated stuff.  So I go on ebay and buy it from China if they have it.

Radio Shack is going out of business! They are closing down stores left and right. I get parts through my work mostly.

Repurposing and reusing is a good source of parts for repairs.  When I throw electronic devices away,
I take them apart and remove re-usable parts for fixing other things- transformers, LEDs, switches, capacitors,etc.
all can be reused.

I also go on Amazon/Ebay for parts I absolutely can't find anywhere locally.

Whenever I have an electronic gizmo that can’t be repaired I put it in a box. When the box is full I take it to an artist friend of mine who takes the machines apart and uses the innards - copper wire, transistors, etc. in her latest piece of art.

Recently I was searching for a small container to make biochar in. At the dump I found a large coffee urn. Looked like aluminum, drilled like aluminum. Great. Took the plastic off, filled it with organic material and threw it in my burn barrel. When I opened the barrel later this is what I found.

Pretty artistic.

Before the trip to the landfill, first consider:
Repurpose: Art from garbage, the kettle becomes a flowerpot or a vase. Or just a regular pitcher.
Recycle/Scrap: Any components that can be reused.
Demand/Buy only repairable items: How else can we get manufacturers to do the right thing?
Look for used items instead of buying new.
Develop your own web of life to include people who specialize in repairing/scrapping/repurposing: advertise connections to grow your connections.

My much better half and I collect old electric fans that predate much plastic use. She literally just disassembled one that had stopped working, blew out the workings with an air hose, oiled and reassembled it. It's good as new. If I can get the photo and video she took, I will post it up here later.

I dislike gadgets with a whole bunch of integrated components. I much prefer a good enameled, cast-iron kettle and a hotplate  (for when there's no fire needed for heating) to an electric kettle, simply because of all the breakable plastic and adhesive-based construction that often obviates disassembly for the purpose of repair.

I definitely think that there's a niche in the market for everyday appliances and tools that are made for disassembly and repair, but we aren't going to see improvement on this issue from companies dedicated to the planned obsolescence  model that deliberately designs lifespans into their goods so that they go to the landfill and we buy more.

-CK

Anne Miller wrote:

Cris Bessette wrote:  I'm an electronics technician by trade, so all of my electronics from lamps to clocks to computers are used until there is nothing left.  

Chris, has it gotten where finding electronic parts is becoming a problem?

The only place we have is Radio Shack and when we ask for something the guy sends us to unrelated stuff.  So I go on eBay and buy it from China if they have it.

I wonder if there are any online groups or website where used/scrapped parts can be offered up for trade or sale?

I have seen some apps, such as www.Ripenear.me for exchanging garden produce, and eggs, which is based on a person's zip code.

Perhaps someone who knows how to develop applications could get something similar up and running to be used for exchanging used parts?

I've only seen sites like that for really rare or odd things- Vacuum tubes, phonograph parts, etc.

I've never heard of anything like that for parts found in every day modern electronics, I mean,
resistors in bulk are .01 cents each, it doesn't pay to remove something like that and resell it.

C. E. Rice wrote:

William Bronson wrote:

I also scrap everything.
I check the curb weight before buying a used car, so I know,roughly what I will get if I must scrap it.

This one made me chuckle!

I thought this 'value' was more significant.  But last I checked, even a heavy 1989 Suburban only fetches $400 at most.  And maybe only $250.

The scrap metal/iron market is very depressed right now.

Yea😏when your budget is in the low thousands,  a coupl of hundred is worth considering.

There are probably people who make a good living buying junk cars and scraping them.  I have sold several to them since it was easier to pick up the phone.

Anne Miller wrote:There are probably people who make a good living buying junk cars and scraping them.  I have sold several to them since it was easier to pick up the phone.

Yes, the limits here are:
Time (you can make more$$ if you research, remove and sell parts)
Space (you will end up having 3-15 broken cars at a time)
Money (the more you have, the more you can buy. The more you can buy the better price you can get when you scrap).
Market (metal prices can fluctuate and affect your profit).

Chris Kott wrote:My much better half and I collect old electric fans that predate much plastic use.

-CK

You would like our friend's collection.  We gave the far left fan to him because it was not kid safe.  It started a passion in him.  He has 4 or 5 more not in the photo.

C. E. Rice wrote:

Chris Kott wrote:My much better half and I collect old electric fans that predate much plastic use.

-CK

You would like our friend's collection.  We gave the far left fan to him because it was not kid safe.  It started a passion in him.  He has 4 or 5 more not in the photo.

So he's a fan FAN, right?  ;-)

If it is an appliance that is over about 15 years old, fix it. I have a 30 year old dryer. I know it can last another 30 years. I know a new dryer will last about 7 years at which time I will not be able to repair it and so the cost will be 100%.Some parts are hard to get or very expensive because they are rare. but often there are other parts that will work just as well or better. For example, a $9 changeover switch (4 position is what I used) makes a good dryer temperature switch. However, an Ardueno with a display shield and an 8 pack of 10amp relays can replace the temperature switch and the timer for under $50. The same combination would work for the washing machine too.

I have a dryer and the timer started eating knobs. Then it quit turning. I had purchased a $30 replacement module and it took me about 10 minutes to replace. (and a broken toe, I pulled it out and set it down  with one of the small feet squarely on my left big toe). It works well. Life expectancy for that timer dying, 3-5 years. I nursed mine along farther (pliers) before replace. A lot of people have that bit die and buy a new one ($300-500). In fact he has an identical one on the junk trailer and just made an offer to them to buy it, they'll let me know Monday, I offered $25. I tried it, that module is gone as it won't turn. Hm...

In this case the life of the item plus relative cost versus replacement plus life left in the item, well worth repairing (I bought that dryer because I broke a bone in my foot and couldn't use my clothesline...)

I have two soy pots-these are used to grind, heat, and turn soybeans or similar into 'nut milk'. I had to take one apart once and completely dry it out. Most of the electronics are encased in resin. If something does die that isn't simple (replacing power cord or a few solderable connections within) that pot is not practical to attempt to repair it. You either hope to have warranty still on it, or you just buy a new one.

The cooling fan for my laptop recently went. It was ailing and I noticed that things were warming up (kick in turbo cool and it didn't roar to life anymore either). $24. Simple dissection to take out the old one, clean a lot of heat sinks within, and install the new one. I'm well past warranty. I've also added a new keyboard to this. I should get another 3-5 years out of this system, and a few minor repairs means not having to find money for a new one. So, it's called justifying the repairs against the life/service already given and the life/service expected afterwards. 5 years from now, a dying fan might not be worth replacing....

In the case of the pot, it sounds like useful life to repair cost may be too high. I'd look into replacing the pot, with a 'better' one. If a few years have passed there may be something better on the market. Or, is there an alternative that's more ecologically sound (a metal pot you can put on the burn barrel top of a RMH to heat water) instead?

I agree that recurring breakdowns on the same part is a good place to draw the line.  It reflects trying to make a bad design work.  Whether the design is actually bad, or the design is bad for the way you use it is irrelevant, it it not the right tool for the job if it keeps breaking.  With that in mind, you can try to select a replacement that is more suitable for what you are doing, or ask yourself how else you might get that job done.  It's a good time to think a little bigger picture when you are laying out hard-earned cash for something.  

I bought enough replacement slide out racks for my dishwasher to buy 2 new ones. Well water eats them up. Recently switched to rain water for my hot water. I hope this resolves the problem.

I checked with the local appliance sales/service place about any make,model, or brand that sells them with stainless racks. Longterm, that would have been good investment regardless of price.

Yes, I always buy the essential sacrificial or replacement parts same time as I buy an item.   If you wait until stuff actually fails, it's often hard to find the part.  "One is none, two is one", always have a back-up plan (or two or six)!  

scott porteous wrote:yah its ridiculous that the repear almost cost the same as the aplience

Maybe.  Or maybe it's ridiculous that a new $100 appliance costs ONLY $25 more than having the old one repaired.  It's worth noting that, more likely than not, the person repairing the appliance is being paid a reasonable wage, whereas the person/people making the new appliance aren't.

It's also worth noting that, assuming a repair renders the appliance fully functional, $75 is less than $100.  Maybe the useful life of a new one would be longer, but that's not necessarily a given.

If this is a recurring failure as Travis points out, it's frustrating to continue repairing... a new one might at least come with a one-year warranty? Maybe time to consider switching brands/models?

If it is a different failure, maybe fix it? or better yet... replace it with same model, in hopes that you will have a complimentary failure in the new one...allowing donor parts from both to create a repair for free scenario down the road.

I have done this for angle grinders in the past, 5 machines in total, always had two working at once in the worst of times... also easy to repair two at once (parts/labor/tools/brain, all in the same place at the same time)

I can tell I'm among kindred spirits on this thread.  We repair a lot of things around our place.  True, some things aren't worth the time, energy, and/or $$ investment, though.

I use a 2-cycle brushcutter a lot (like a pro model weed whacker).  Machine's new cost is about $500.  It's start-up and performance were getting worse and worse, and finally I figured it needed a carb-rebuild kit.  Couldn't unscrew to get the carb apart—it would either ruin the carb's four small screws or my small Phillips screwdriver.  Called the dealer: $250 for the replacement carb (that's w/o any labor)!!  Instead, ordered an after-market replacement (off eBay, made in China... but I think the original carb was, too), and got it for under $50 incl mailing cost.  Machine has been running like a dream for last two years.  It was worth it to repair.

Using old components for new, creative practical purposes is something else near and dear to me.  Adaptation, invention, etc.  We've had numerous earlier threads more or less on that topic here on Permies.  Here are a few, check these out if you haven't already:

https://permies.com/t/41572/Reduce-Recycle-RePurpose
https://permies.com/t/40/12412/projects
https://permies.com/t/12321/ungarbage/purposing-common-machines-artifacts
https://permies.com/t/84392/permaculture-upcycling/ungarbage/Mechanically-inclined-Upcycling-yield-equipment
https://permies.com/t/84392/permaculture-upcycling/ungarbage/Mechanically-inclined-Upcycling-yield-equipment

Anne Miller wrote:

Cris Bessette wrote:  I'm an electronics technician by trade, so all of my electronics from lamps to clocks to computers are used until there is nothing left.  

Chris, has it gotten where finding electronic parts is becoming a problem?

The only place we have is Radio Shack and when we ask for something the guy sends us to unrelated stuff.  So I go on ebay and buy it from China if they have it.

I'm also an electronics tech, and derive a fair portion of my income from refurbishing/restoring vintage (late '60s to early '90s) home stereo equipment and repairing loudspeakers.
Parts are absolutely unavailable locally, and pretty much always have been, as RadioShack hasn't had a worthwhile selection since the 1970s.

However, parts are readily available online from outfits like Mouser, DigiKey, Arrow, B&D, etc. Damn near anything audio made before 2000 can be repaired. Many things can also be retrofitted as well.

Wes Hunter wrote:

scott porteous wrote:yah its ridiculous that the repear almost cost the same as the aplience

Maybe.  Or maybe it's ridiculous that a new $100 appliance costs ONLY $25 more than having the old one repaired.  It's worth noting that, more likely than not, the person repairing the appliance is being paid a reasonable wage, whereas the person/people making the new appliance aren't.

It's also worth noting that, assuming a repair renders the appliance fully functional, $75 is less than $100.  Maybe the useful life of a new one would be longer, but that's not necessarily a given.

Yes, this.  I think the disconnect we run into (mentally) when considering these small appliances is that the workers in the foreign-country-of-manufacture may have only made $1 for their labor.  If it takes a repair person 1.5 hours in the USA, you are gonna pay a lot more!

And this should influence our purchase decisions...buying products whose workers are paid a reasonable wage.

How about replacing the electric kettle with a non-electric that can be used on fire, gas or electric stoves?

The electric kettle seems the fastest, least effort, least complicated, most energy efficient solution to the "hot cup of tea" problem that there is.

It's a means to an end, and the end is actually having the time/$/energy/effort going into the "epic shit" that you plan to accomplish.
...and NOT getting bogged down in stupid shit like replacing things (time + $$$), repairing (time + $), or just being a spiteful Luddite (TIME + EFFORT).

Thinking of the expense of the electric kettle as a cost of business: at $100, divided by a year of 3 cups a day = $0.09.
If it saved one minute per cup of preparation time (18.25 hours @ 365x3, BTW), at $12/hr., $12/60x365x3 = $219
$219 - $100 kettle = $119 of wages (or 9.9 hours) could be spent doing "epic shit", or pay for tea, or whatever.
It pays for itself, and a replacement kettle, plus $19 of tea.

multiple permies wrote:
Mark Kissinger:  Look for used items instead of buying new. Demand/Buy only repairable items: How else can we get manufacturers to do the right thing?

Cris Bessette: Even when I buy something new I look at it and think "what is the quality of this item and it's parts? Will I be able to repair this/ repurpose this someday?"

Chris Kott:  Not only examining purchases to see whether or not they can be easily disassembled and how many unrecyclable or irreplaceable parts they contain, but whether the item being considered or the way of doing being used is the best way.

I've mentioned elsewhere that I finally recently incorporated as a "non-profit org" or more accurately, a "Community Benefit Organization (CBO)" (a phrase i'll be using more often,  thanks to Michael Kumer, to describe what we ARE instead of what we aren't).  I'm going through the drudgery of crafting the 'policy' book, and because plastics is a bane and re-purpose is such an obvious solution, it will be 'codified' in our purchasing policy.  This page has several testimonials to that, and I'll be quoting them as i present the policy draft to our board.  As always, this place is a wealth of sharing and an encouraging place to visit for inspiration.  THANKS!!!