Austin Shackles : email anshackles"at"gmail.com.
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Austin Shackles wrote:Gravitational potential energy though is given by mgh: so a 1 tonne weight (1000kg) lifted by only 1m has a potential energy of somewhere around 9.8KJ
Austin Shackles : email anshackles"at"gmail.com.
Matt Coston wrote:A simple calculation will show that gravitational potential energy (GPE) is a poor store of power unless you have access to enormous amounts of storage - i.e. a lake.
Austin Shackles wrote:Gravitational potential energy though is given by mgh: so a 1 tonne weight (1000kg) lifted by only 1m has a potential energy of somewhere around 9.8KJ
Take a look at this cordless drill battery.
It's 18v 9ah. This converts to 162 Watt-hours, which converts to approx 0.58 megajoules.
So that hand-held battery has approx 60x more energy than a 1 tonne weight raised to 1 metre.
Storing energy as GPE just isn't practical unless you can do it on a massive scale.
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Austin Shackles wrote:but 5000kg and 5m height would give you 25x the energy, say, and wouldn't be hard to build. Obviously, you can't carry it around like a drill, but many things don't need so much power as a drill. Take lighting, for example, if you use LEDs 10W will light a room.
Austin Shackles wrote:It might be that for small scale, batteries are still the way to go - but town-sized, they are still way too expensive.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Matt Coston wrote:
Austin Shackles wrote:but 5000kg and 5m height would give you 25x the energy, say, and wouldn't be hard to build. Obviously, you can't carry it around like a drill, but many things don't need so much power as a drill. Take lighting, for example, if you use LEDs 10W will light a room.
5000kg at 5m = 245,000 J
10W LED light for 6 hours = 216,000 J
So you can basically illuminate 1 room for 1 evening. It's not even remotely economically viable - if it was, we would already be doing it everywhere.
Have you done an estimation on what your idea would cost? What $-per-kilowatt-hour do you expect?
Austin Shackles wrote:It might be that for small scale, batteries are still the way to go - but town-sized, they are still way too expensive.
I assume you're aware of Tesla’s 100MW/129MWh Powerpack project in South Australia? The reported figures show that it will pay for itself in less that 2 years.
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Austin Shackles wrote:Yeah, you can also do pumped storage. We have one here in Wales, been there for many years and it works well when you have a mountain and lots of water. You can't do it without both, realistically.
Travis Johnson wrote:The ideal place for this would be in an old quarry.
Matt Coston wrote:
Travis Johnson wrote:The ideal place for this would be in an old quarry.
If the crane is economically viable, thousands of them would need to be built around the world. The crane makes sense because it can be built anywhere, and also built adjacent to the power plant, saving on high voltage cabling.
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Creighton Samuiels wrote:If you have a sloping hillside, that you don't need for any other purpose, and children aren't going to be playing around it, then a short section of track and an "incline" weighted car could reasonably be used for this purpose. I wouldn't do this simply due to the risks to human bystanders.
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Carry on...
Paul Kurtz wrote:Recently I heard of another type of "battery." Use excess energy to compress air which, when energy is needed can be released to generate electricity via a small turbine. Does anyone know about this?
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Roberto pokachinni wrote:Hi Paul K. Not exactly. What I am familiar with is energy stored as compressed air that can be later used to run pneumatic tools. I'd be interested to know about the power generation aspect.
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Darren Collins wrote:This guy does some really good calculations on energy storage options for a home-scale system:
https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/09/got-storage-how-hard-can-it-be/
The conclusion is that in general, batteries are probably the cheapest, most convenient, least dangerous and simplest energy storage option.
By far the best place you can spend money and effort is in reducing your energy storage requirements. The two things to think about are reducing your overall electricity usage and shifting usage patterns to take advantage of variable electricity generation availability (i.e. directly using the generated electricity instead of storing it for use later).
You can reduce electricity usage with things like buying efficient appliances, doing things manually, drying clothes on a line, having a solar hot water system, heating with wood, etc.
You can use generated electricity directly without using storage to do things like pump irrigation water from a well or creek up to a high tank/dam using solar power when the sun is shining (or wind power when the wind is blowing), and using that water supply to gravity-feed your household and/or garden so you don't need to run electric pumps on-demand. You could also run your washing machine and other appliances when solar/wind power is available, instead of running them from stored energy.
One idea that I settled on was to drive a steel piling into the bay, and attach a series of octopus-like arms out from the piling. At the end of each arm would be a concrete floating planter, similar to the concrete docks where I worked. Each planter would be designated as either a 'marine', or 'terrestrial' planter. The marine planters would be empty, but the terrestrial planters would be filled with soil and planted with a guild of native shrubs and trees. From a distance, the shrubs and trees would make the whole thing look like a natural island.
Each arm would have the ability to produce electricity, via gear reduction, air pressure, hydraulic pressure, magnetic pressure (linear motor), or something like that. The arms could be locked in place at any position (probably balanced to keep the center of gravity under control), under the control of some smart software running in a controller either on the piling or at some remote control center.
When none of the arms are locked, the planters rise and fall with the tide, producing power when the tide is rising or falling. Somewhat useful, but kind of boring, and probably not in sync with demand. What is more interesting is when the whole thing operates like a battery, storing energy. e.g. at high tide, an arm could be locked, and then be allowed to produce power (i.e. drop) whenever there is demand, until the next high tide. The weight of the planter (+arm) generates the power. Likewise, at low tide, the marine planters could be locked in place. When there is demand for power before the next low tide, the marine planter would be allowed to float (rise), producing power.
If the marine planter had a valve to control whether the planter held water or not, it could be allowed to fill with water after a low tide, float up to the high tide level, then be locked in place. So it would have the weight of the planter plus the weight of the water.
It might even be possible for the marine planter to be made airtight, providing stronger upward force after a low tide. However since the marine planter is essentially a tide pool, locking tidepool animals into an airtight environment seems like a bad idea. Also leaving them without water for too long would kill them. But the smart control software could account for this.
Of course one piling wouldn't produce much power, but a whole network of them would. Also if you had a whole network, each piling could be simplified to have just one circular planter.
I don't envision filling an entire estuary with these, but I when I was in Vancouver I saw some pretty large estuary areas filled with log rafts, so you already are using a lot of estuary space for human purposes.
I imagine that many animals (especially birds) would choose to roost and perhaps even nest in the terrestrial planters. Likewise, marine organisms would live on/in the marine planters. It might be wise to provide a little space between planters which may not rise and fall together, to avoid pinning some creature between them. Likewise they would need to be clearly marked "don't tie your boat here" otherwise the boater would find themselves being lifted into the air or pulled underwater.
I realize this is an unproven, fairly wacky idea, but if the controls were smart enough, I think it could really work well as a tidal power source with built-in energy storage.
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