how do we tell more people about rocket mass heaters

Christine has a great point, in that especially when we're trying to explain/ convince others, most folks - particularly those who may already think we are off our rockers - are not willing/ able (pick one) to sit down and watch days and days of videos on all the experiments. One very concise yet thorough video, say 20 - 30 minutes long (maybe a time lapse?), of how and why would be more effective for getting folks interested in digging into the history.

Christine said, "The threads from the forum are 8 respective 9 years old, forgive me that I won't revive these.

I was not expecting you to revive them.  I thought that you might find something useful.  Since you did not, maybe someone else will.

Those are great questions so I hope some of our Rocket Scientists will speak up and answer them.  Thomas, Gerry, Satamax, Peter, Matt, anyone?

I have been reading about Rocket Stoves since 2016.  I find them fascinating.  It is my hope that folks in Germany will take an interest in these wonderful stoves.  With the energy crisis coming to Germany and maybe to the US and worldwide more people need to learn about them.

Since you have an interest in them it is my hope that you will help spread the word ... all about RMH, Rocket Stoves, and Masonry Stoves.

Best wishes for finding what you desire.

These might help anyone wanting to learn more:

https://permies.com/wiki/40988/Rocket-Mass-Heater-Manual

https://permies.com/wiki/57365/Rocket-Mass-Heater-Builder-Guide

https://permies.com/t/40993/Ernie-Erica-Wisner-Rocket-Mass

https://permies.com/wiki/188812/rocket-mass-heater-risers-materials

https://permies.com/t/176182/Selecting-rocket-mass-stove-design#1430059

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:Only a few days ago I found out there is such a builder in my region! He doesn't use the English name Rocket Mass Heater, but I saw pictures and it's exactly the same (with a Dutch name).

Ah, I envy you! Lucky Netherlands ...

I might contact a society (Germany is famous for its "Vereine") I found on the internet who seem to engage themselves for the medieval (?) "Grundofen" (don't know the term in English). It sounds to me as if this type of masonry heater is in some aspects similar to a RMH.
For other readers: https://www.850grad.org/

But even to contact them, some compendium in German would help a lot.

I think a lot of people are really trying to overcomplicate the numbers in their heads, and that's  probably a good way to lose a lot of potential new people. I would say forget all the burning efficiency math because very few people care. The one-tenth number is extremely simple math: some people had a wood stove and burned 5 cords of wood each year to keep warm. They switched to a RMH and now burn half a cord every year to feel just as warm. No other numbers really matter to most people. The burning efficiency, the temperature of the house, nothing. They are just as content burning one-tenth the wood. Likely more so, since they have so much less wood to harvest or buy or carry in the house.

Yes, they probably had a shitty wood stove, and a really good RMH. That's just their situation. Just because there are some really efficient stoves now, doesn't change that a RMH can heat a house with one-tenth the wood when compared to old-fashioned stoves. It is going to be different for every single situation, and since the message can't be tailored to every one, a standard is used. And it is common in marketing to state a standard that makes things look their best, and have people understand that if they are already taking steps to be more efficient, they will likely not reap the maximum benefits like someone who has not taken any steps to become more efficient.

To spread the word as much as possible, has anyone tried getting the car warranty telemarketers on our side? I think they could tell the entire world in one week!

I think touting the best possible case, going from an old poorly used wood stove to an optimized RMH, invites disappointed reviews of "it only cut my wood use to 1/3 or 1/4 of my decent wood stove". Even using 1/4 of the previous wood is a huge improvement, and will allow anyone with existing storage to season their wood for two or three years instead of having to use it in a few months from stocking. (It is quite common around me to get your "seasoned" wood for the winter in late fall; "prudent" users will store it in spring or summer so it can actually dry under cover in warm weather for several months.)

I believe the best approach is to claim "1/4 or better" and have the outliers be the delighted "I got 1/10". 1/4 is a claim that will not invite immediate incredulity and rejection as impossible.

Discerning people will of course understand that situations differ and not everyone gets the same improvement, but if all the differences from the claim turn out to be worse than the claim, that does not reflect well on the claimants. Most people do not analyze reports but generally internalize the most memorable of them.

Christine, Peter van den Berg's website covers batch rocket mass heater theory and construction in great detail. Do you think your chimney sweep friend could read Dutch? The website is translated into a number of European languages, but it is not in Deutsch yet.

Batch Rocket EU

Hypothetical question:

If you had a magic lamp, and could only make the choice between:

A) Telling 100,000,000 random people, all about RMHs.

or...

B) Creating just a single successful, profitable, growing, and replicable permaculture-based company which installs a few thousand RMHs a year around the globe at a good price.

Which would you choose?

George Yacus wrote:Hypothetical question:

If you had a magic lamp, and could only make the choice between:

A) Telling 100,000,000 random people, all about RMHs.

or...

B) Creating just a single successful, profitable, growing, and replicable permaculture-based company which installs a few thousand RMHs a year around the globe at a good price.

Which would you choose?

Your post convinced me to buy pie for the first time, thank you for putting a fine point on the matter. My own attempt to put this in other words might be to ask: rather than how, why is it important to tell more people about rocket mass heaters?

If the answer is that the goal is to have more RMH in existence making a difference in the world, then I think George and several others posting previously have good points. I believe that many folks, myself included, find the arguments in favor of RMH convincing, but the bottleneck is availability of any kind of system for purchase, whether it be an affordable all-in-one or modular DIY approach where I could buy at least the majority of the non-mass components.

I have a friend who works on our farm who is already aware of RMH, and I'm aware of RMH, and we are together about as likely as anyone to take on a complex building project, but there is a backlog of simpler (yet also impactful) projects. I believe that if we could order the core of a RMH masonry design, we would be more likely to build it out than if we started from scratch.

I am a 59 year old woman & in 2020 I built a rocket mass heater from scraps from the neighborhood & natural materials from my 1 1/2 acre property.  I did buy firebrick for the burn chamber & bought a 55 gallon drum. The rest is cob. It can be done. Thank you Paul for spreading  the word, it has reached all the way to upstate New York & I'm sharing it with anyone that has interest!!!

Robin Katz wrote: I think the best comparison would be the same structure using a conventional stove then retrofitted with a RMH with no other changes. That would be some great information to show the efficiency increase with a RMH.

THIS! 1000% this. Same exact conditions, same wood, same outside temperatures. It still wouldn't be 'laboratory identical' but very close. And you could compare the RMH to maybe 3 or 4 of the top contender efficient wood stoves. It's really the only way to have a basis for reputable claims and make a useful, practical decision.

Jordan Holland wrote: I think a lot of people are really trying to overcomplicate the numbers in their heads, and that's  probably a good way to lose a lot of potential new people. I would say forget all the burning efficiency math because very few people care. The one-tenth number is extremely simple math: some people had a wood stove and burned 5 cords of wood each year to keep warm. They switched to a RMH and now burn half a cord every year to feel just as warm. No other numbers really matter to most people. The burning efficiency, the temperature of the house, nothing. They are just as content burning one-tenth the wood. Likely more so, since they have so much less wood to harvest or buy or carry in the house.

Yes, they probably had a shitty wood stove, and a really good RMH. That's just their situation. Just because there are some really efficient stoves now, doesn't change that a RMH can heat a house with one-tenth the wood when compared to old-fashioned stoves. It is going to be different for every single situation, and since the message can't be tailored to every one, a standard is used. And it is common in marketing to state a standard that makes things look their best

While 'some people' may have had that experience, I would suspect it's far from typical. As one example, many years ago we bought this house, and it came with an old Earth Stove (brand) that was basically a big steel box with a hole out the top and a draft control. Horribly inefficient but easily kept our 1800 sf toasty. Used about 5 cords that winter. Year two, we modified it by adding a baffle and secondary burn tubes. That winter we used 3 1/2 cords. Progress! Then a few years ago we upgraded to a Drolet. Now down to an average of 2 cords. Could an RMH get us to half a cord? No. The math isn't overly complicated. Half a cord of wood simply doesn't contain enough heat (BTUs), even at 100% efficiency, for the size of our house. (But if it wasn't for the damn insurance prohibition, we'd sure love to try!)

I realize the message can't be tailored to everyone, but should the 'standard' used be an extreme rather than an average?  Making things look their best (marketing) at the expense of using the worst possible example, and framing that example as typical seems a bit disingenuous. Sort of like comparing a Prius to a mid 70s Lincoln in desperate need of a tune up. Yes, the Prius easily gets 10 times better mileage, but how many people are actually driving mid 70s huge cars these days? But the video didn't really make that type of distinction. It simply paints all wood stoves as being horribly inefficient. And honestly, a company could make a video about RMHs portraying them as a total pain in the ass to build and use, compared to installing a woodstove. That sort of marketing, to me, is counter productive because it skews the facts a bit too much. But, maybe that's just me. I was raised to be analytical and question everything people claim, especially when they are trying to sell me something. And the RMH easily stands on it's own merits without having to stretch credulity.

1300 square feet w 0.60 cords.  In montana.  Mediocre insulation, zero curtains in the building.



I think that with some changes and a warm winter, I could get this down to 0.35 cords.

Would you have an idea of the conversion factor from cords of wood to junk mail?  As in if you used this same RMH, how much junk mail would it take to get the same effect?

My guess is that we (at least I) don’t get that much junk mail, but junk mail might augment wood consumption substantially.

Eric

Eric Hanson wrote:OK, Christine makes a really great point.  Germany has a real need for RMH’s right NOW!  It’s going to start getting very cold very soon so anything we can do to spread the word would be really advantageous.
Are there any German speakers who would be willing to donate a little time to add subtitles to a video?  I am totally thinking on my feet here and I don’t know exactly how we connect A to B, but getting some German subtitles sounds like a great suggestion.
Eric

Got German subtitles on Paul Wheaton's YouTube video.

This is how I did it.

Click on the right hand side the CC button.

Next to that button is the setting then click in the setting menu subtitles.

In the next menu click auto-translate and now pick the language you would like to read.

It has been a long time since my last German class and my German ist nicht so gut. I think the translation is of the auto-generated subtitles in English. From what I saw the translation is ok maybe a few issues around temperature and wood used. 69 F is nice 69 C not good (156.2F). Also how do people in other places measure wood? United States has the cord, there is the Norwegian cord and Canada has a cord. They are all different! So maybe not use cord but cubic meters or kilograms?

One way to make sure the translated units are correct would be to edit the video to add a text graphic at the appropriate marks: "68*F/20*C", and "0.60 cords/2.2 m^3", and "8 inches/200mm".

If you really want some fun, mix it up a bit with metric fractions "one cord equals 3-5/8 cubic meters".

Definitely nice drying clothes with wood heat! While we save close to $100 a year from having switched to LED lighting, we definitely potentially* save even more than that, by far, with having a clothes drying rack near the wood stove. The extra bonus is that wood heat tends to create low humidity in a home, so drying clothes restores moisture to the air. *I have to say potentially, because I have never squandered money on a clothes dryer. Even if it's below zero outside, clothes will dry on a line. But it's nicer to do everything inside! And I remember the cost to dry things from years ago laundromat days!

Nice job T Blankenship!

The OP specifically wanted an actual human to read the subtitles, but what you did is an excellent first step.

And then there is of course the issue of units—things like degrees Fahrenheit to degrees Celsius.  And getting an American cord converted to something more universal—cubic feet would be a start, but cubic meters would be better.

For the record, one American cord equals 128 cubic feet or 3.624 cubic meters.  I don’t know if that’s helpful for you but if you need that information, there it is.

But until we can get actual German subtitles—or better yet, an actual German translation!—we have the auto subtitle version.  Maybe we can tweak it just a little bit with the units.  I am afraid that my German is pretty awful as well as the only German I picked up was from old WWII movies, mostly Nien! and Schnell! so not especially useful here.

Nonetheless, good job!

Eric

T Blankinship wrote:Got German subtitles on Paul Wheaton's YouTube video.

This is how I did it.

Click on the right hand side the CC button.

Next to that button is the setting then click in the setting menu subtitles.

In the next menu click auto-translate and now pick the language you would like to read.

It has been a long time since my last German class and my German ist nicht so gut. I think the translation is of the auto-generated subtitles in English. From what I saw the translation is ok maybe a few issues around temperature and wood used. 69 F is nice 69 C not good (156.2F). Also how do people in other places measure wood? United States has the cord, there is the Norwegian cord and Canada has a cord. They are all different! So maybe not use cord but cubic meters or kilograms?

Hi T,
thank you for coming back to my post. I understand that you want to help, thanks.

This thread is about how to tell more people about the RMH and what keeps us from doing it. I just copy my claim from a few days ago:

"So: I need a good synopsis including building information for people who already have knowledge in conventional wood heating, and at least with German subtitles; forget about automatic captions. Even better an internet site with an introduction (more than https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwCz8Ris79g) and then information in detail. Heaven would be: some legal information for EU-residents. "

The automatic captions are truely dreadful. They would maybe help people who are early adopters and really WANT to get into this great idea. But I am talking about getting information out to people who do not wish to break their ankle in the rabbithole, searching here some bits and there some bobs and spending hours on collecing the information.

We want to have some compendium with a low threshold to catch interest of some professionals (or even authorities for legalization).

While it is not so easy to make a good excerpt of all those hours of material out there, it is quite easy to spend a few of the kickstarter dollars to truely translate the new RMH-movie with quality subtitles.

Just my 2 cents.

Eric Hanson wrote:The OP specifically wanted an actual human to read the subtitles, but what you did is an excellent first step.

And then there is of course the issue of units—things like degrees Fahrenheit to degrees Celsius.  And getting an American cord converted to something more universal—cubic feet would be a start, but cubic meters would be better.

Thank you, Eric.

Sadly, my fellow countrymen have little English knowledge, even though English has been mandatory in schools for all students since at least the 1970s. All movies on German TV are dubbed, original versions almost never broadcasted (to my regret).

But I would not go so far as to ask for a native speaker to read (dubbing) the subtitles, it would be okay to have the possibility in the settings to switch to high quality subtitles in the kickstarter movie. The subtitles could also get rid of the problem with imperial units.

Christine Schwabe wrote:
The automatic captions are truely dreadful. They would maybe help people who are early adopters and really WANT to get into this great idea. But I am talking about getting information out to people who do not wish to break their ankle in the rabbithole, searching here some bits and there some bobs and spending hours on collecing the information.

Ok how about this. Between YouTube and people here on permies, I think a international video on rocket mass heaters could be made.  What about a video that has an option of good captions because a real person with good understanding of the language in question wrote them out and checked for spelling and grammar issues? Is there a way to upload a video to YouTube with four or five language subtitles options?  What other languages besides German would be nice? It would also be a good idea to make all measurements in metric.

Is there a video of Paul Wheaton's that is a good candidate?

For the last few days, I started nearly every meeting I had with the question "if I had $50k, how could i leverage that to get the idea of rocket mass heaters into 100 million brains?"

Most of the answers were pretty weak - spend $50k in a way that it might reach 10,000 brains.

One of the ideas was interesting:  build 100 rocket mass heaters for 100 people in europe that could really benefit.  So some rmh builders would need to be hired and they would go house-to-house.  And the recipients would need to be found.

For this next trick, I got excited enough about the idea that I registered some new domains ...

short video:  a new era of free heat
   - about 2.5 minutes long
   - 3-d, super high quality informative video
   - kinda the best of "what is a rocket mass heater" and "how can they be so efficient"
   - something where the first 5 seconds is very informative
   - something that mentions "for more information ..." at the end
   - for more information, freeheat.info
   - cost of editing $3000
   - narrated by stephen fry
       - hire him for $10,000?

Free pdf booklet about free heat at freeheat.info
   - about 20 pages
   - totally free, no email or coin
   - the key thing offered at freeheat.info
   - summary + two simple builds
   - links to "other information"
   - maybe $10k budget
       experts + excellent illustrations + layout

(i now own freeheat.info)
maybe buy domain freeheat.com $1000?

$10k promotion of video on google ads (youtube in-screen ads)
$10k promotion of new web site and pdf on google ads (on searches)



A video of a very simple and cheap build (the new build in the red cabin).  A well done six minute long video for youtube.  $2000 for high quality editing.  Maybe $2500 for a better camera.  Maybe $500 for video.  Followed by an advertising campaign "DIY heat"?

(i now own diyheat.info)

The key for this stuff to work is to do super high quality.  

Oh, and, of course, $50k.  Which I don't have.

I really like the 100 heaters in Europe idea.  Put Uncle Mud on the road!  Two per town being built at the same time, one town per week.  Film the whole thing as a documentary as he works his way across Europe...

paul wheaton wrote:The key for this stuff to work is to do super high quality.  

I agree 1000%.  Purpose-filmed builds with a final product in mind as it's being built is much much better (in my opinion) than filming stuff as it happens and then mushing it into a movie later.

Small idea: I just did a google search for permies.com earlier today. The main permies.com page description showed up as usual with a small bullet list of various links to different parts of permies.com. The rocket mass heater forum was not one of them. Is there a way to make it show up in that list?

I wonder if all those concerns about inspections, permits and chimneysweepenhoffers (sorry, forgot the german word for it) would kinda diminish if enough people are freezing to death?  Or in other words, installing RMHs in Europe during a major heating crisis with people doing anything they can to stay warm, would allow them to sneak past the regulators long enough to be proven safe...

My help is piddly, but I shared this 2 minute-ish one ( https://youtu.be/fwCz8Ris79g)  on fb, and bumped up my patreon level, this morning... I have a friend in Switzerland, who might share it, over in that part of the world (I hope)

Who in Europe wants to try a rocket mass heater this winter?  Dimitris in Greece has the design and materials worked out for you based precisely on the guidelines put forth by Uncle Mud. This might never have been done in Europe (or Greece)  and popular conceptions of rmh's in Europe are seemingly off the mark (based on emailed conversations I have had with Dimitris and a few other Europeans. Here is a picture of the core (Mud helped Dimitris perfect it):



It might around 500€ (based on an estimate of Dimitris, who I'm inviting into this thread.)

I pledge $20 to build free RMHs in Europe. It seems that the energy crisis will turn into a deforestation crisis this winter. Anything to help lessen that is a good idea.

One thing RMH could use is more and better images, all over the internet.  

Wanna help?

https://permies.com/t/192366/RMH-Face-Lift

Think Ukraine!

I'm a retreaded emergency manager, 73, who arrived in Chernivtsi in June researching best way to apply my skills to help. Connected with a couple who fled Kharkiv and started a nonprofit to help others displaced and now running supplies to those who refused to leave (like his parents)!

We've partnered to bring RMH, tiny houses, and other off-grid basics along with resiliency training. Part of a wholistic approach to rebuilding a nation which we call Resilient Villages. Also using lots of recycled goods -- unlimited supply compliments of Putin. We need cheap & fast to do what no one else will be able to do: help these people save thousands of lives -- their own, their families, friends, and neighbors.  Winter is fast approaching. Many cities and villages will be without power. Infrastructure has been destroyed on an incredible scale.

We need experts like you to make our Resilient Villages proposal a reality.

I don't have money, but I've got location, location, location! And connections: Zolochiv, a small city north of Kharkiv where their parents live. Not much destruction, but only 10 miles from hard-hit, liberated territory.

We can start building the first proto type RMH in the first tiny home. I've just begun ramping up my social media platform. Others of you are so much better at this sort of thing. Videos of the work,  Gofundme campaigns which I'll start this week -- just a few ideas to jumpstart your brains. I'll be doing my liaison thing with old colleagues to try to get proper funding. We need a successful first heated house here in Ukraine. This WILL be picked up by news media swarming the area since its liberation on 9/11. Positive, heartwarming, lifesaving stories much needed.

Paul & All, please help us build Resilient Villages. Help us teach survival skills to some of the most desperate, deserving, courageous, and innovative people you'll ever meet. There is no better place in the world to get your message out!

P.S.
thanks to anybody who hung with me to the end. Apologies for lurking for years. (I was deeply into permaculture before I ever heard the word. Back then I was known as the Hermit of Madeline Island but didn't know it 'cuz I never got into town to hear the local gossip -- but that's another story:) Check out my shiny, new profile and reach out if you'd like to know more.

Mike Haasl wrote:  I wonder if all those concerns about inspections, permits and chimneysweepenhoffers (sorry, forgot the german word for it) would kinda diminish if enough people are freezing to death?  Or in other words, installing RMHs in Europe during a major heating crisis with people doing anything they can to stay warm, would allow them to sneak past the regulators long enough to be proven safe...

Or, also, what if you could get a 'sweepenhoffer' involved with the build somehow? Kind of like the psychology of convincing someone by getting them to think your idea was really their good idea? I don't know what the bureaucratic hierarchy is in various parts of Europe, but maybe if a few of those RMHs got built for/by key people...

paul wheaton wrote:

Here's the "beautiful rocket mass heaters" thread which includes some europe builds

https://permies.com/t/40573/beautiful-rocket-mass-heaters

My guess is that there are probably a few dozen more rocket mass heaters to be added to that thread.  But for now:
No question that these are two of the nicest RMH I have seen.  I love them.  I think it will still be a battle selling the idea of putting a big ugly trash-burning looking barrel in the middle of a beautiful house to the average family.  Figuring a way to fix that part may go a long way as well toward selling them.

EXACTLY! My thoughts on the pictures...  hmmm that first one looks nice, on to second picture.... nice counter, then YIKES Is that a FIFTY GALLON BARREL?  

I always wondered why there is not a case or something hiding that big old ugly barrel. A simple box around that thing would look about a million times better.  

Sandy

I always wondered why there is not a case or something hiding that big old ugly barrel. A simple box around that thing would look about a million times better.  

The barrel needs to radiate heat, but you could definitely do metalwork, or I also remember seeing one where they hung what looked similar to jewelry from the top, lacy looking chains with colorful stones. It's still a big ol' barrel, but at least it's somewhat less obnoxious. It's very easy to get metalwork done these days, with the proliferation of folks with plasma cutting devices and cnc files. So you could wrap the barrel with thin sheetmetal having all sorts of designs.
It's an unfortunate consequence, but even a car that gets 80 mpg won't sell if people find it too ugly.

Julie Reed wrote:

I always wondered why there is not a case or something hiding that big old ugly barrel. A simple box around that thing would look about a million times better.  

The barrel needs to radiate heat, but you could definitely do metalwork, or I also remember seeing one where they hung what looked similar to jewelry from the top, lacy looking chains with colorful stones. It's still a big ol' barrel, but at least it's somewhat less obnoxious. It's very easy to get metalwork done these days, with the proliferation of folks with plasma cutting devices and cnc files. So you could wrap the barrel with thin sheetmetal having all sorts of designs.
It's an unfortunate consequence, but even a car that gets 80 mpg won't sell if people find it too ugly.

You don't have to use a barrel.  You can also cover the barrel with brick, stone, or cob.

source: https://permies.com/t/71576/tiny-house-rocket-mass-heater

You can also cover the barrel with brick, stone, or cob.

I was under the impression you couldn't do that because metal expands at a much different rate than masonry. I realize there's many alternatives to a barrel, but I've never known you could cover it without leaving a decent gap for movement. Is that incorrect?

The one pictured above uses no barrel.  Pictures of the build here:
https://permies.com/t/71576/tiny-house-rocket-mass-heater

I'm sure there's answers to your expansion questions in the RMH forum:
https://permies.com/f/260/rocket-mass-heaters

If no one chimes in here, maybe start a new thread asking.  I usually get answers pretty fast.  

Some more beauties from the beautiful rocket mass heaters thread.