how do we tell more people about rocket mass heaters

Please consider adding outside wood boiler to the list of options.  They're often used in the country in the type of places that could also implement a RMH without as many permit questions.

Yes

Maybe another option for the left side:


will it keep your pipes from freezing in the winter if you are gone for two weeks? (all wood heat sucks here)


will it keep your pipes from freezing in the winter if you are gone for two weeks and the power goes out? (I think they all fail for that one)

Passive solar home design would do pretty well for those but I doubt it fits the list.

Maybe the list should also have:

Need to carry fuel into your house (or need to acquire fuel?)

Number of times you have to attend to it each day

Where is it on the Pretty vs neutral vs Ugly scale?    I'm thinking propane/natural gas would be neutral, electric baseboard starts to get a bit ugly, wood stoves can be pretty, especially if you can see the fire.  RMH would be a range on the scale.

Physical footprint it occupies in the living space

Mike Haasl wrote:Passive solar home design would do pretty well for those but I doubt it fits the list.

Yeah, gotta draw the line somewhere.

If we are gonna talk about passive solar, then i wanna add in stuff about PAHS, wofati, etc.

Hello,
I haven't been on permies.com in awhile, but just read this thread as fast as I can. Sorry if I've missed it, but was the question about insurance answered? As in, has anyone had trouble getting house insurance when they've installed a diy rocket mass heater? Or conversely, has anyone successfully received insurance -- an would you be willing to share the name of the company?

I had to provide all kinds of info on our manufactured wood stove when we changed insurance companies.

Thanks!

Here is another small group of prople who hold the basic Permies principles near to their hearts.

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/thailand-happiness-farmer

Do we have any group of people who reach out to these groups so we can share ideas and help each other out? I'm thinking specifically of Paul's request to try to get more information out about rocket mass heaters perhaps this group who lives in Northern Thailand could use some of that advice too.

paul wheaton wrote:13 years ago I saw my first rocket mass heater.  I took shitty video and put it on youtube because I thought people gotta learn about this.  

The whole concept is stunning.  This is a world changer.  

And the world just can't seem to be bothered.  

And when I see resistance to the idea, the resistance is psychotically dumb.  So we set about to prove they work well and focus on the points made by the dumb stuff.  Crickets.

I have hosted rocket mass heater events and we have collectively built soooooo many.   We have measured their crazy efficiency so many different ways.  

I'm exhausted.  

And now people are facing some serious, serious shit - and we still can't seem to get a spec of information in front of them.  

We did a kickstarter on "Free, earth friendly heat" and it was one of my lowest performing kickstarters ever.

13 years I have been trying to infect brains with rocket mass heaters.  

Hey Paul,

I was just listening to your recent "Oil and Water of the Mind E616-617", I hear your frustration, and every time I hear you bemoan the fact that the world isn't listening I want so bad to help. First of all, I want to encourage you. Please never give up. Never never. You are the constant and dissonant voice we all need to break through and remind us that there is a different way. For me I get re-hypnotized all the time by the status quo and social norms and I need your voice reminding me that RMHs are real and it's not just a fun idea. I've been listening to you for years. I've learned so much. I've told so many people about RHMs and permaculture and Wheaton Labs and I want more people to know about all these things and then I realize... I haven't done anything. Because I don't want my neighbors to judge me, or my parents and family to think I'm crazy, or to get in legal trouble or to screw something up and misrepresent permaculture to people who are already skeptical. I feel like I need to buy land away from judging eyes, have a blank slate, and build my permaculture paradise, but to do that I need passive income and to semi retire early so I can work on things I care about not just paying bills and making money. Then my mind goes off on that subject and so on and next thing I know years have gone by because I felt I needed to go back 100 steps to take my first permaculture step forward and got lost somewhere along the way. So, please keep trying. Keep pointing out the path. Keep trying to remember what it was like before you became you. I know that's like trying to remember a time back before you knew how to read or what pennies, nickels, and dimes were, but please stay patient with us and keep spelling it out for us. And I for one want to apologize for not letting my convictions turn into practical steps forward.

Now onto mass adoption of RHMs: I think about this all the time when you bring it up and what I come to every time is 2 things: 1) People are shallow and will dismiss the whole incredible technology because they don't want a barrel in their living room and 2) People are mesmerized by fire and love watching it and playing with it. Like the patio heaters with the glass column in the middle with the swirling flame in the middle. They are beautiful and mesmerizing as opposed to the patio heaters that just have a metal sombrero on top. I think we have an extremely practical solution with RHMs but people are shallow and impractical  and lean towards form over function. I wish it were different, but we have accept that and move on. As long as the bell on the RHM is a barrel, it will never go out to the masses. But the good news is if the burn tunnel or the bell were clear so the sideward burning flames and/or the reburn torus could be seen in action... WOW!!! That would tap into our deep, primal fascination with fire. That video of of a RMH would go viral. I really believe it.

I wanted to keep this to myself and make a business of it, but I have to be honest with myself. I'll never do anything with it so I might as well throw it out there so someone might solve this. There has to be a clear material that can withstand these temps and allow people to witness the beauty of what is going on in the heart of the RHM. Like this but not in the heat riser section. I imagine the wall of the J-tube facing the room would be glass on the wood feeder and the horizontal part of the J but the other 3 sides with be made of standard materials. I imagine the heat riser needs to stay standard to allow high temperatures to build and the standard riser could be seen in the center of the clear bell. Or maybe keep the 4th wall of the entire J-tube facing the room could be clear to see the entire process. Maybe directly above the heat riser the bell would need to be protected or be a different material, but if you were sitting down and looking from the side you could still see the flames coming out of the heat riser and the reburn torus in action. I also imagine this clear bell would have more of a curved top than a steel barrel with vertical sides and horizontal top meeting at a 90 degree angle. I imagine the clear bell would still have vertical side walls and a horizontal piece directly above the heat riser but the top and sides would connect in a curve and not a 90 degree angle. Would this aid the torus and the reburn or is the harsh 90 degree angle necessary to form some turbulence to mix the gases and smoke still needing to combust? Does anyone have a visual breakdown of temperature ranges inside aRHM tip to tale to see what materials could be used in different areas. I forget which part is the hottest but I assume its the heat riser or right above the heat riser on the bell.

It's quite possible that I am naive. [Many of you are saying "duh," now.]  

But, this is my point. I've read enough and have contributed enough to the discussion.  Is it time now to form a small cadre of people who want to find a way to answer the question and deliver a solution? Forgive my commercial or industrial method, but it's the way I worked in the advertising industry. Yeah, I understand that it can be used to manipulate, but it's not the tools that are bad. We can use those tools to form a plan to answer the question of how to "tell more people about RMH."  And then execute the plan, and adjust as we go along. It will be a coordinated effort among regulatory agencies, commercial entities, and curious homeowners (or others). But the point remains that you can't expect exponential growth without incremental understanding. This is my experience with my national and international clients when introducing new concepts and/or products in specific countries.

Once we have a plan and the plan is approved by Paul, et. al., we can start to execute the plan. Of course, the leaders of this forum will have to approve the major steps but at least we can get the issue out of committee (i.e. forum discussion) and into action. You will never know if any of the ideas/concepts discussed here will actually fly until you take the next steps.  Who wants to take the next steps?

Barbara Manning wrote:Once we have a plan ...

At the moment, here is what I have:

 - make the infographic.  Without it, people get stuck in cyclic arguments.

 - dramatically improve the FAQ, link to it more, and maybe whip it up into an infographic.  Without it, people get stuck on their one thing that keeps them from getting a rocket mass heater.

 - improve the sales pages for "better wood heat", "wood burning stoves 2.0" and "free heat".  There are entities that are desirous to harvest our 50% affiliate fee and tell hundreds of thousands of people.  But they need those pages to have better conversion ... and to just be BETTER.




This whole conversation started with "what do we do to help those people that are gonna be cold this winter?"  And we came up with an idea of doing a build here, recording it, and then putting out a video showing a really simple build.  Only the situation in europe changed, and our build didn't go the way we wanted.    We are currently exploring a slightly different direction for this.


We have created the rmh resources thread, and we are creating resources to help with general heating decisions.

Alan Booker's stuff about carbon negative heat is excellent.

We are hosting a five hour event here where people can come and experience rocket mass heaters.  We are hoping that dozens of others all over the world will do something similar.

We are working to expand our list of rocket mass heater builders.

We are working to expand our list of beautiful rocket mass heaters.

We think that the number 1 way for a person to believe that what we say about rocket mass heaters is true is that people need to experience them first hand.  So rather than trying to get 100 million more built this winter, can we somehow encourage a few thousand more to be built?  And maybe each of those builds can be shown to a few dozen people?


This is a rough idea of where we are now.

Work on the heat infographic is ...  well ... work.  

Mud and I have broken it down a bit and we now have a few hours on this:

https://permies.com/t/204531/annual-operation-fuel-cost-types#1699932

...  which will eventually be just one row for this:

https://permies.com/t/204534/creating-heat-infographic


This one is next:

https://permies.com/t/204532/cost-professionally-install-types-heaters

Anybody wanna start doing the work on that?

BTW:  this is how a global difference is made ...   lots of really boring work ...  five hours on some details that will be glanced at as part of an infographic.

I think this infographic will have a total of 120 hours of work involved.  Most of this work can be done by anybody reading this post.  So far, I have done most of the work.

I tried to summarize Alan Booker's Carbon Negative Mass Heater presentation here.  Might be of use in some of these conversations.

https://permies.com/w/carbon-negative-heat

What follows is opinion from one person's perspective:

Multiple responses have already spoken to what I see as some of the biggest issues to conquer - building codes, insurance, aesthetics, and accessibility.

I think from the time the building codes and insurance have accepted usage in one location, it will still be a decades long process for it to radiate outward from there. There is a video that shows the concept of social momentum, maybe others know of this video. A man at a music festival starts dancing on a grassy slope where all others are just sitting or standing in social circles. He is having a blast, but is doing it alone for quite some time. After a bit someone joins him. Others still look on for quite some time. One more person joins. Momentum picks up slowly but surely and soon enough the entire hillside is dancing like no one is watching. By the time the whole hillside got involved though, the original dancer had retired from his fun, probably exhausted, while the rest carried on. I think you, Paul, are this dancer. Others need to take on something akin to the workload you yourself have accomplished for it to move outwards.

I have only one idea - make an effort to get in touch with willing participants spread across the country who would be okay with having a demonstration stove available for frequent public viewing. Someone who is on the fence or has absolutely no knowledge of this technology is not going to want to drive 8+ hours to go look at something they are skeptical about. We need a network of RMH's - they can be in outbuildings to negate building code violations - that would allow anyone in the country to see one, use one themselves, sit on one, etc. without having to drive more than say 2 hours from their home. I think even 2 hours would be a stretch for most people, but jeez just creating a network of RMH's that are each 4 hours apart from each other seems daunting already.

What about shippable cores? Would more designs and more people making them be a big help?

I bought one of muds shippable cores at the PTJ and am getting no love with further info on implementing it. I hope to join the ranks of those sharing the direct experience, and more attention on the shipable core process would speed that along...

Shipping cores is not a very viable option.
The high cost of shipping bricks is prohibitive.
The potential of cracked bricks is high.
Using CFB has its own set of issues starting with quality control and ending with wood abrasion.

Jordan Holland wrote:What about shippable cores? Would more designs and more people making them be a big help?

Yes.

And kits too.

Coydon Wallham wrote:I bought one of muds shippable cores at the PTJ and am getting no love with further info on implementing it. I hope to join the ranks of those sharing the direct experience, and more attention on the shipable core process would speed that along...

does this help?

https://permies.com/t/193729/Plans-Sauna-Rocket-Heater

Perhaps we could talk of modular cores instead? The more standardized parts of the build are, the more people are likely to take on the project. Muds offering seemed like a nice mid point between looking at diagrams in the Wisner book and a full on liberator purchase...

thomas rubino wrote:Shipping cores is not a very viable option.
The high cost of shipping bricks is prohibitive.
The potential of cracked bricks is high.
Using CFB has its own set of issues starting with quality control and ending with wood abrasion.

What about extra packaging to protect the bricks?

What about a core kit that requires the homeowner to buy a dozen bricks?

thomas rubino wrote:Shipping cores is not a very viable option.
The high cost of shipping bricks is prohibitive.
The potential of cracked bricks is high.
Using CFB has its own set of issues starting with quality control and ending with wood abrasion.

I think every conventional wood stove that people buy today is shipped from somewhere, often with the bricks installed.  I'm not saying it's cheap or easy but I don't think it's a show stopper.

paul wheaton wrote:
does this help?

https://permies.com/t/193729/Plans-Sauna-Rocket-Heater

That sure is some nice eye candy. Will that allow plugging into a larger mass?

I'm looking at a more traditional build, so need general info about how to figure materials and sizes around the core. The solarium rmh plans were a good start there.

What about a core kit that requires the homeowner to buy a dozen bricks?

This is what I was thinking. I had an idea for a frame made of angle iron, preferably that could be taken down and shipped in a very small package. Most people can get bricks where they live, but a lot of people lack the metalworking skills.

Mike Haasl wrote:
I think every conventional wood stove that people buy today is shipped from somewhere, often with the bricks installed.  I'm not saying it's cheap or easy but I don't think it's a show stopper.

And since those bricks eventually break anyway, most cold climates have local stores that sell those bricks without shipping charges.

paul wheaton wrote:

thomas rubino wrote:Shipping cores is not a very viable option.
The high cost of shipping bricks is prohibitive.
The potential of cracked bricks is high.
Using CFB has its own set of issues starting with quality control and ending with wood abrasion.

What about extra packaging to protect the bricks?

What about a core kit that requires the homeowner to buy a dozen bricks?

We just received a shipment of dishes, very well packed, individually wrapped, stacked, and bundled; before put into a box with newspaper and starch peanuts filled tightly. Handmade work, sent with care by the artist/potter themselves.
We have also recently received a shipment of ceramic pots, stacked and banded to pallets with minimal packing... quite a few items arrived broken. Basically commodities, sent from a huge company, that probably saved money in the long run by NOT spending on materials and packing labor.

The lightweight materials, and specialty materials (such as ceramic fiber board, ceramic wool batts, insulating firebricks, rigidizer liquids) make sense to ship. Especially if in a kit form with pre-cut sizes/shapes, and appropriate quantities.
The heavyweight materials (such as clay, hard firebricks, common brick, flue tiles, mortar, etc...) would make more sense to source locally if possible. There is still likely value to having a kit of these available to be shipped as well. Whether it is lack of a local supply, or the completeness of purchasing a kit, with no leftovers, there's benefits.

It's possible that a shipping solution could involve using the prepared steel drums (modifications already made, drums that fit together properly, paint already burned off) as the shipping container(s).
Other options for kits could include: flue pipes, fittings, and hardware; batch-box doors and hardware; a tool kit with tarps, buckets, and masonry tools.
A one-stop source for the materials, ready to ship, might be useful in convincing some to build. If they knew that they have enough of the right stuff, and don't have to spend a month collecting it all...

In my opinion it will always be artisanal thing. The core of the heater is only one part of the system - the lighter one. There are various designs of relatively efficient fireboxes.
What makes a huge difference is capturing heat from the exhaust and STORING it for post burning heat emitting. It can be done only with something heavy - built on site. Or astronomically expensive to ship. It should be tailored to the building design, chimney size, location. So many aspects to make it work good and be above the competition.

It is a custom solution and custom will never be popular or cheap if people have easier options - even if expensive in long run.

In the past in central Europe everyone had some masonry heater - it was popular and relatively cheap to build, because of competition of thousands of builders. Now it the opposite. People seem lazier than 20 or 40 years ago and building services are becoming outrageously too expensive. It may sound pessimistic, but I'm a realist. You would have to own the media to lead people in good direction. Just the opposite is happening. How will you find, train builders if an average young person wants to be a "youtuber"?

also (especially thanks to Russia-Ukraine war) in the EU, looks like they could be hugely helped by adopting the (much more appropriate, human-scale) RMH technology!

https://news.mongabay.com/2022/12/eus-winter-energy-crisis-intensifies-pressure-on-forests-commentary/

I can't remember where I picked this up.  And here it goes.  It may help the RMH spreading problem.

For doing a specific action three things are needed.  It's sort of the fire triangle for actions.

1.  The ability to do that thing (*)
2.  The will to do that thing (**)
3.  A trigger (***)


* : or the self understanding that they have the ability, etc.
** : or employ the ability, spend the resources, etc.
*** : a point (? in time and space?) at which the idea of doing the thing is raised, evaluated and selected for doing.


At it's simplest these are binary things, and can be forced.  Think jump scares or tickling, or putting something burning hot on someone's hand to get them to (re)act.

At the more complicated realistic side 'convincing' is needed and all manner of brain rot and PR damage can be a hindrance.


Maybe it helps.

-twr

Has anyone made up a pamphlet or one-page poster about Rocket Mass Heaters myths and facts?  Specifically in the area of code.

I would like to hand some out to folks in my town, and hopefully without getting sued or something.  The biulding inspector was pretty lukewarm about the idea, and told me to call the Town Administrator, which I think means the run-around...I will try calling tomorrow.

Meantime, how's this?


============================================================================
___ Three Myths about Rocket Mass Heaters ___

Heat Your Home with 70-90% Less Wood


Myth #1: Rocket mass heaters are illegal in the State of Massachusetts

Fact: There are ways to build one that conform to the Code.  Ask your professional to assess whether it is buildable in your situation or get a copy of the applicable codes.  Safety considerations are essential.  (The load-bearing strength of the floor under the mass and the clearances of combustibles to flammable walls are two examples.)

Myth #2: My insurance company will never allow it.

Fact: Insurance companies are more concerned with preventing pipes from freezing than with avoiding wood burning stoves.  Chimney fires, another great point of vulnerability, are far less likely with a rocket mass heater than a conventional wood stove since there is far less creosote buildup.  

Myth #3: Wood use will not actually be significantly less, the whole concept defies basic physics

Fact: The “100% efficiency” metric for wood stoves is not an apples-to-apples comparison with a heater that keeps heat indoors in a mass.  It’s like comparing two cars that have the same efficiency but one is skidding on ice and the other has snow tires.  The Rocket Mass Heater Builder’s Guide by Ernie and Erica Wisner confidently claims “70-90% less fuel than a typical wood stove” on the cover.  Now, there are some wood stoves that will get a bit more efficiency, and they will also cost more.  

mud and i have been working on this for several months.  Here is the work-in-progress for the whole infographic

https://permies.com/wiki/204534/creating-heat-infographic

and here is the bit we finished about insurance

https://permies.com/wiki/210613/Types-Heat-Insurance

That's helpful for talking with the Town officials.  Just the part that's already finished even.

I realize my one-pager about legal/insurance doesn't apply to all 50 states in the USA, it's just for my state.  But Massachusetts is one of the more tightly regulated ones, so if it can make it here, it can make it (almost) anywhere.  

I thought Mud said it's legal to build here, but now I'm a bit confused about what the law actually says.  

From what the building inspector said, it sounds like there's a whole separate code (in addition to the International Building Code) that covers masonry heaters specifically.  And the inspector was only familiar with jumbo masonry heaters that sit in the basement.  Nothing about reinforcing a floor and putting it on the first floor.  

But he didn't say that masonry heaters are illegal.   Just that a rocket mass heater isn't necessarily a masonry heater.  But I would think it would count as one.  The code inspectors are careful not to say anything is legal ahead of time, to avoid liability for the Town (even if its not really a legal liability I gather that just people complaining about the Town is enough of a frustration for them)

So I  have yet to determine if my one-pager can actually say anything that will be useable in my state, and then if it can be useful in other states and if so which ones.

My thought is to say the minimum amount--"no it is not a knowable definitive fact that the rmh is %100 illegal to build in the state of Massachusetts" is a very conservative claim to make and I think there is no liability in making it.  

I guess no one's going to sue the Town for not having done its part to prevent global climate crises after we're in a proverbial apocalyptic hellscape.

paul wheaton wrote:mud and i have been working on this for several months.  Here is the work-in-progress for the whole infographic

https://permies.com/wiki/204534/creating-heat-infographic

and here is the bit we finished about insurance

https://permies.com/wiki/210613/Types-Heat-Insurance

I played in law for a few years. From that, I have several rules I follow. Here are a few:

(1) It is unlawful to combine branches of government. Doing so is equated, by government, as tyranny.

(2) In elaboration on item one, agencies cannot add to or take from the law. They can only execute it.  If an agency does add to or take from the law, see item one, above.

(3) Government, be it local, state or federal, is incapable of either good or ill. Only through the acts of public agents can anything be done in the name of any government.

(4) Agents who impose rules, policies or procedures that violate items one and two, above, are acting outside their scope of authority, that is, in their private capacities, and enjoy no immunity from liability for their acts and subsequent personal suits.

(5) Merely that a public agent says it does not make it true, or law. The agent must be able to site a law supporting claims that affect those they serve, and the law must not be repugnant to a state or federal constitution.

(6) We the people may do ANY act not proscribed by law, while government agents may only do acts prescribed by law. This it is that it is said we have many unenumerated civil liberties.

(7) Public agents cannot be presumed to be moral, upright or otherwise trustworthy. It is for that reason we have not just one, as it would seem based on statements by many, but FIFTY-ONE constitutions to bind those agents down.

All that aside, insurance and mortgage agreements are another story. A contract, whether called and insurance policy, a loan agreement, or other, is a different realm. However, if required to follow the law and a public agent claims something must or must not be done and law doesn't support it, the agent is not the law.

But he didn't say that masonry heaters are illegal.   Just that a rocket mass heater isn't necessarily a masonry heater.  But I would think it would count as one.

Interestingly, we just had this very discussion, not with a code official but with an insurance company. They view RMHs as a different risk due to the combustion process of the RMH being drastically hotter. We also learned that they treat an RMH with a steel barrel as a ‘barrel stove’ which is not insurable. Apparently they are getting enough inquiries about RMH that there is some familiarity, which is good. The phrase ‘accelerated combustion’ was used. I’m guessing ’rocket’ is a really uncomfortable word to insurance folk! An open feed tube is also unacceptable, so it sounds like an all brick/stone batch box may be the possibility most likely to pass as a ‘masonry heater’, if progress is to be made with underwriting. A UL listing is still the ultimate hurdle for any heating device, unless built by a licensed insured professional mason.

I could see the discomfort with a barrel-covered RMH; the extremely hot metal surface requires wood stove clearances and burn risk, and may even get hotter on the surface than modern wood stoves.

I would take some issue with the idea that RMHs have higher combustion temperatures than masonry heaters. If that is the case in any particular comparison, I would venture to say that the masonry heater is getting less complete combustion and possibly generating more creosote leading to some risk of chimney fires. I am amused by the term "accelerated combustion" as a way to avoid saying "rocket" This does feed into the idea that we should always avoid calling our constructions rocket mass heaters in the presence of insurance companies and use the term masonry heater.

I would also suggest that a way to use a J-tube within insurance strictures would be to have a hinged vented cover. The wood should always fit within the feed tube for safety anyway, and unless draft is really poor, the fire doesn't need the full cross section of entry airflow for proper combustion. Mine works great with 7/8 coverage (not counting P-channel supply).