Lone wolf vs. giving up my dreams vs. Lone wolf planning for success

Hello,

Another one of my classic depressing posts. Still stuck in the suburbs after all the time I've been here. I have not had a single ounce of permies related movement within my family's mindset. They are still staunch, coupon clipping, buy everything from China, 9-5 working without alternative, go to the grocery store and rely on businesses for my ability of stay alive, it's all fine and there's no other way to live than the suburbs, type of people. No problem, you can't force people to change.

But this sort of puts a hindrance on my movement.

After getting on a real colonial America kick, I don't think there's any way to go about this alone, and my family is all I have. I was just about to buy a van, fix it up, look for land and make the move. But... what if I break a leg? I'm screwed! What if a log falls on me? I'm screwed! What if I have to fend off a wild animal? Screwed! Flood... wildfire... lightning strike... screwed! Without other people around a single mistake could mean you're as good as dead, even in this highly connected world. Surely there are people that have "lone wolf'd" it and survived. But what about the vast majority that didn't? We don't hear from them... because they're dead.

What would you do in my situation, realistically? No wife, no kids, just my mom, sibling, and some immediate family members close by with absolutely no interest in this traditional lifestyle. As usual, just as my movement gains traction, it's halted. I will likely buy the van anyway but homesteading isn't looking good anymore. This is possibly the worst realization I've had along this journey. The suburban destruction of self-sufficient towns and the personal vehicles destruction of close-knit community.

FML

I suspect a wolf would rather be risking it in the wilderness than safely supported in a zoo...

It sounds like you are ready to move out, just that you want a network in the area where you land.  Have you thought about the Wheaton Labs bootcamp?  That might be a way to get some inspiration and community as you sort things out.  

Buying land and lone wolfing it is a huge challenge, especially if you don't have the tools, money and know-how to achieve what you want.

Jeff Steez wrote:Surely there are people that have "lone wolf'd" it and survived. But what about the vast majority that didn't? We don't hear from them... because they're dead.

I think you are vastly over-dramatizing this.  You're hardly talking about going Jeremiah Johnson and heading off into the freeze to see if you can survive.  You're talking about buying some land and working to grow your own food.  Far from the "vast majority" not surviving, nothing could be further from the truth in my estimation.  Chances are very good that wherever you buy land you will be in very short driving distance of stores and conveniences, you will have a cell phone, you will have neighbors.  Could you be out cutting wood and drop a tree on yourself?  Sure, it's possible.  Is it more likely than a car accident living in town?  I don't think so.  Many people I know in this area use wood heat, cut wood, use tractors with big heavy implements, and on and on.  The vast majority never have the type of accident you are talking about.  You don't hear about some guy being found in the woods that starved to death because a tree fell on him.  

I do think that your mindset is going to preclude you from this lifestyle if it doesn't change.  You haven't even tried anything yet, and you've already chosen defeat.  That mentality is not really conducive to having success in any field, whether it is homesteading, starting a business, even being successful at a hobby.  You don't know how it will go if you buy land and try to change your life, but you know how it will go if you don't try.  I've said this before, but I think it bears repeating.  Henry Ford said “Whether you think you can, or you think you can’t – you’re right”.  I very much believe that.

Hate to say it like this, but I think I know exactly what you mean. I was in that life, too. Debt-free, no spouse, no kids, perpetual renter, working a 9-to-5 in a dumpster-fire of a city. Always wondering what it would be like to go out there and live the way I actually wanted to.

To sum things up, after wondering for 20+ years, I Did The Thing. I started as a SEPPer at Wheaton Labs, and now I'm a boot. I know I made the right decision. It's not easy (for a few reasons, I suppose), but there's a community and budding network here and the landing is softer than if you were to go at it alone. The potential is enormous if you keep your goal in mind, and not take things too personally. I'm sure there are other communities you can investigate, and maybe visit, for a trial run. The longer the visit, the better, perhaps.

Regarding thinking about broken legs n' stuff: hey, "No amount of anxiety changes the future." This, coming from a rather risk-adverse fellow. Additionally - in my opinion - Doing The Thing sure beats lying in bed awake every sleepless night, wondering what life could be.

Good luck to you.

i suspect that most of those who try to ‘go it alone’ in homesteading and don’t succeed, aren’t dead at the end of their attempt, they’ve just decided to try something else.

To quote a Canadian Statistician *very* loosely, "you are more likely to die driving to the corner store to buy a lottery ticket, than you are to win the lottery".

Yes, I'm "lucky". I've never won the lottery, but when we had 1 week to find and buy a house, and Hubby wanted out of the burbs and to have some land, we found a place 5 km from a small city. I recognize that 25 years later, that would be much harder to do, but from reading I've done, there are tons of small towns in the USA  begging people to settle in/near them. As a single male, you don't need 10 acres, or even 5 to support yourself. But you're right that being completely alone is LONELY. So consider researching areas where the locals might want more young people to return to, (look at town demographics) and consider whether you can learn enough skills to be the local handyman.

Yes - I agree with Mike, the Boots program at Wheaton Labs would give you a bunch of documentable skills at a very reasonable cost. Specifically, those handyman sort of skills!

I think the best way to find community is to "make yourself useful". Having a van you can live in will give you options you don't currently have. Knowing you can move the "roof over your head" whenever you need to, gives you flexibility you don't currently have. You've got a path - but maybe you've also got "opening night jitters"? Fear of change is normal and healthy. It's a feeling, just like other scary feelings that many people aren't taught healthy ways to cope with.

Trace is also right - most people give up on homesteading because of the work involved, not because they get badly hurt or dead.

You know you're not happy where you are, even happiness can be scary when it's been a long time since feeling it!

Jeff,
I have tried the lone wolf and have had moderate success thanks to helpful neighbors and friends.
I am at a point however where I just need more boots on the ground so I am planning to subdivide out some 2 acres tracts to sell to homesteaders like yourself. I will still have 30 acres of land to share with the good folks whom snatched up those 2 acre plots.
We could become a pack of wolves.
I will need to get some legal advise before I start to sub divide.
If you have interest in what I plan, Purple  Moose me.
Brian

I really like Mike and Stephen's suggestions about Wheaton Labs especially the SEPPer program at Wheaton Labs.

If I were younger I would love to be there.

Here is a thread to learn about the BootCamp for those that might not know about it:

https://permies.com/wiki/bootcamp

Jeff, I agree with the others, getting experience in a teaching environment is important.  I don't think you have to worry about getting injured, since you are already aware of what might happen, and you'll be careful not to let those things happen, or you go inside if there's lightning.  It's the things we aren't aware of that get us, or make life difficult.

Reality that won't kill you is what you will encounter; bugs, snakes, ticks, dirt, ants, termites, sewage, not enough water, car trouble, small engine maintenance, driveway construction, construction in general, buying tons of tools and maintaining/storing them, being exhausted, hauling garbage out and food in, hauling cooking fuel or wood, trying to cook in difficult situations, just trying to get hot water sometimes is very difficult....ants, did I mention ants?  Did I mention maintenance?

Look at all the people on YouTube living alone in remote locations.  There's a lot to learn from them, it's a good place to find out the reality they are experiencing.

If you intend to do it alone, and not join a remote community of some sort, you might want to take up backpacking first.  It gets you alone in a real hurry, out where things get pretty real and you'll be alone.  Take predator animal warnings seriously, make sure you have a way to keep food and garbage away from them, have a water filter and plenty of water....YouTube is also very good for learning about backpacking.  You will do plenty of hiking/walking/hauling if you live somewhere on your own.

If you like roughing it, then start looking into whether you should spend serious money.  Driving around in a van isn't like living off the land.  It's way to easy to sit on your backside going from location to location, compared to growing your own food and building or improving a cabin/house with a septic, running water, power of some sort, a real driveway.

There are lots of threads here about living remotely that have good advice.  Two rules of thumb, live within 30 minutes of a hardware, gas station and grocery store, and never use a chainsaw over your head.

Most people who make it are optimists, and don't let things get them down when they go wrong, and they will go wrong, a lot.

I am a perpetual experimenter.   I never (mostly) worry about success or failure,  just about trying,  seeing what works and then adjusting accordingly.  For both big and little things.

Several years back I bought a farm property after keeping sheep on rental property for a few years.   I looked for a long time, and ended up finding an adorable 8 acre property, with river frontage, in my price range.   But it was a 3 hour round trip drive to work.   I own a nice little community based small business that I had no interest in moving.   I decided to give it a go.   Long drive, but only 4 days a week, and home by 2pm every day anyway.   I knew it MIGHT not work out.  

A few unexpected things happened;  a bridge closed adding 20 mins each way to my drive.   Winter conditions between the locations were so different there were days I couldn't get to work and customers didn't understand.   The economy changed.   My "hay guy" stopped selling hay,  etc.  

After 4 years I HAD to make the choice to try to save my little farm or my small business,  I couldn't sustain both of them,  by myself,  and do it well,  from so far.   I sold my little farm to a young local couple and moved back close to work.   Now I'm urban again with a tiny little house with a large yard.   I revamped it all into permaculture inspired production, got the urban soil back in shape,  and rented a little allotment garden too.

I have "friends"  using that term lightly that say behind my back  "Heather couldn't cut it as a farmer..."  and they have a little self-satisfied smirk over it.   I don't see it that way at all and their petty attitude is so silly.   I LOVED it for those years that I was there.   It was a great learning experience.  I passed it on to a very excited young couple, and made a little profit it in it.  And when I was there, I was (am) a pretty darn GOOD farmer.     You don't have to do it forever for it to be a success.

What am I doing in my little urban yard/garden?   Well,  I set two challenges for myself this year.   One, starting March 1st,  was to buy NO PRODUCE that I didn't grow myself and aside from ONE ONION for some recipes,  that has been surprisingly easy!    I also grew everything from SEED this year again with really great results.  

I really try to learn what I can,  where I am,  with the resources I have.   Take opportunities to try new things and learn from it, without putting it in success/failure terms.  

I'm open to "retiring" back to a small homestead,  and have been reducing all my monetary dependencies to make that an easier leap when the right opportunity opens up.   My small business is winding down as I move on to more age-appropriate work LOL,  it's pretty labor intensive, and my interests and skills have evolved and shifted.  I'm sure when I let that chapter go *someone somewhere* is going to smirk that I "failed" LOL.   Let 'em.   Onward...  

No idea if this rambling will be helfpul, interesting, encouraging, or inspiring for you..  but I hope something in it helps!

Heather Staas wrote:I am a perpetual experimenter.   I never (mostly) worry about success or failure,  just about trying,  seeing what works and then adjusting accordingly.  For both big and little things.

Several years back I bought a farm property after keeping sheep on rental property for a few years.   I looked for a long time, and ended up finding an adorable 8 acre property, with river frontage, in my price range.   But it was a 3 hour round trip drive to work.   I own a nice little community based small business that I had no interest in moving.   I decided to give it a go.   Long drive, but only 4 days a week, and home by 2pm every day anyway.   I knew it MIGHT not work out.  

A few unexpected things happened;  a bridge closed adding 20 mins each way to my drive.   Winter conditions between the locations were so different there were days I couldn't get to work and customers didn't understand.   The economy changed.   My "hay guy" stopped selling hay,  etc.  

After 4 years I HAD to make the choice to try to save my little farm or my small business,  I couldn't sustain both of them,  by myself,  and do it well,  from so far.   I sold my little farm to a young local couple and moved back close to work.   Now I'm urban again with a tiny little house with a large yard.   I revamped it all into permaculture inspired production, got the urban soil back in shape,  and rented a little allotment garden too.

I have "friends"  using that term lightly that say behind my back  "Heather couldn't cut it as a farmer..."  and they have a little self-satisfied smirk over it.   I don't see it that way at all and their petty attitude is so silly.   I LOVED it for those years that I was there.   It was a great learning experience.  I passed it on to a very excited young couple, and made a little profit it in it.  And when I was there, I was (am) a pretty darn GOOD farmer.     You don't have to do it forever for it to be a success.

What am I doing in my little urban yard/garden?   Well,  I set two challenges for myself this year.   One, starting March 1st,  was to buy NO PRODUCE that I didn't grow myself and aside from ONE ONION for some recipes,  that has been surprisingly easy!    I also grew everything from SEED this year again with really great results.  

I really try to learn what I can,  where I am,  with the resources I have.   Take opportunities to try new things and learn from it, without putting it in success/failure terms.  

I'm open to "retiring" back to a small homestead,  and have been reducing all my monetary dependencies to make that an easier leap when the right opportunity opens up.   My small business is winding down as I move on to more age-appropriate work LOL,  it's pretty labor intensive, and my interests and skills have evolved and shifted.  I'm sure when I let that chapter go *someone somewhere* is going to smirk that I "failed" LOL.   Let 'em.   Onward...  

No idea if this rambling will be helfpul, interesting, encouraging, or inspiring for you..  but I hope something in it helps!

So, just to clarify, you "failed" and you didn't die?   :)

I think your mindset is exactly the kind I was talking about that succeeds.  You gave it a shot, did really well, learned a ton, and moved to a different phase of life where you are using the things you learned, adapting them, learning new things.  I love it.  Good for you.

I started off as a lone wolf, but community happens.  People are people, after all.  

I've had countless dangerous experiences so far.  Almost crushed my foot felling a tree, huge out of control fires, bear, 100+ mph straight-line winds, avalanche risks, a couple of ER visits, etc.  I'm setting up an ambush for some thieves right now.  All signs of a life well lived, I guess.  I think of the van life regularly, but have concluded it's a bit shortsighted.  Still, my bootstraps are wearing thin.    

What would you do in my situation, realistically? No wife, no kids, just my mom, sibling, and some immediate family members close by with absolutely no interest in this traditional lifestyle.

I was living with my parents and siblings just 5 years ago. I did homesteady things, but if I were in that situation again today I would do Skip stuff all the time. The thing is, most people aren't going to complain if you hang up a picture for them, or set up a clothesline. I know that suburbia, with it's car dependence, sucks. But you have some access to a house and land, two things that can always be improved and repaired. Whenever you buy your own homestead, all the skills you have learned will build your confidence.

I have a riddle for you. Three frogs were sitting on a log. Two of the frogs decided to jump into the pond. How many frogs are on the log now?

Jeff Steez wrote:What would you do in my situation, realistically?

1. Scrounge a broken shovel from the dump and fix it.

2. Scrounge a large plant pot and some discarded soil that has evidence of organic matter.

3. Plant part of a $2.00 packet of spinach seed.

4. Water and grow the spinach. Eat and share.

5. Repeat steps 2 through 4.

The point is: Talking is not doing. Doing is doing. Pick up a shovel, and everything changes. My 2c.

I can only do so much here in the suburbs. It’s extremely expensive so it’s pretty difficult to live day to day and save up money to afford land.

I’m in my tiny garden for hours everyday. It’s a real pain in Florida to grow most things. David The Good said apparently other people north of here mostly just stick things in the ground and they grow… basically the opposite of my experience.

I guess I will work on the van and land… shouldn’t matter which I get first since I need both to proceed.  

Another issue is, well, dying. It’s the uncertainty that tomorrow isn’t promised. I wouldn’t call it existential dread, but existential disappointment in never having managed to gain a foothold in my dreams. Every day feels like I need to jump into this now but I just can’t afford it. All I can do is tend a tiny 60 sqft garden suitable for ants.

Jeff Steez wrote:I can only do so much here in the suburbs....Every day feels like I need to jump into this now but I just can’t afford it. All I can do is tend a tiny 60 sqft garden suitable for ants.

I have been feeling this way since 2020. Your 60 sq. ft. garden is bigger than mine, which is in pots because of my poor soil situation. Also, with no fencing on my property, the HUGE local deer population look on the potted garden as a buffet. It's discouraging and frustrating, and compounding that property values are so high where I live I doubt we will ever be able to have more land unless someone gives us lots of money.

However, my garden, such as it is, has grown me, and my young daughter. My potted garden has changed my life. Really. This is not a cliche! I still dream of and wish for "better" things, but having this to take care of and be responsible for throughout the changing seasons, to consider soil maintenance and regeneration, and daily examination of what is most important in my life has given me the teeniest glimpse of the meaning of Fukuoka's quote, "The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings." If it can happed in this garden, it can happen even with your garden--and that inner growth will give you a sense of meaning that can lead you on in your life to better mental and physical spaces.  

Have you examined and rejected all rural intentional communities that are seeking new members? And like, if Florida isn't to your taste, go somewhere else.

Thanks for the insight, I just yesterday began delving into placing "pots" where space allows to expand. After being inspired by my sesame plant (zero work, easy, lazy, gigantic, prolific, remarkable... opposite of growing tomatoes in Florida) and David The Good to focus own what works, I am redoing my garden's focus. Going to pick up some name yams today.

I bought some of those fabric pots instead of plastic ones, I just like them. I planted some potatoes in them, and I found galangal at the market for the first time so I am finally able to try and grow that permanently in these nice little fabric pots.

It's remarkable how hard society has made it to live simply. You're forced as a square peg into a round hole. I always thought there was a problem with myself, I have been labeled as having a few mental illnesses, but at the same time, I just don't think modern life and modern jobs are for me. I don't necessarily want to be a vegan, but I have to be because all the animal products I can get are involved with torture. Would I shoot a bison in the head and eat for months off of it and make my own clothes from it after giving it a good life and a painless death? Darn right I would! But I can't.

The interesting bit is that people just now are really reaping off of their generational wealth, land purchased by a family 400 years ago, or a company started 200 years ago. That stuff really inhibits the possibilities afforded to others. I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just that if you're not on the winning end of that type of thing this far into American history, you're kind of screwed to some extent.

Christopher Weeks wrote:Have you examined and rejected all rural intentional communities that are seeking new members? And like, if Florida isn't to your taste, go somewhere else.

I've browsed them a number of times but nothing stuck. It's tough to pack it all up and live strangers. I'd rather live with my family, but they're not interested this life.

Jeff Steez wrote:David The Good said apparently other people north of here mostly just stick things in the ground and they grow…  

That's how it is here.  I just stick things in the garden and they grow.  Except my heavy clay soil that I spend years working into good garden soil.  And the daylight hours that are very short most of the year.  And the -40F temps in the winter.  And the frost that we get in Sept.  And the frost that doesn't end until June some years.  And the deer and rabbits that eat everything.  And the perennials that can't survive the winters here.  And the summers that are 95F and 75% humidity.  And the quack grass.  And the people all around me that spray poison on everything.  And the truck load after truck load of wood chips I move around.  Other than that though, I just stick things in the ground and they grow.

Trace Oswald wrote:

Jeff Steez wrote:David The Good said apparently other people north of here mostly just stick things in the ground and they grow…  

That's how it is here.  I just stick things in the garden and they grow.  Except my heavy clay soil that I spend years working into good garden soil.  And the daylight hours that are very short most of the year.  And the -40F temps in the winter.  And the frost that we get in Sept.  And the frost that doesn't end until June some years.  And the deer and rabbits that eat everything.  And the perennials that can't survive the winters here.  And the summers that are 95F and 75% humidity.  And the quack grass.  And the people all around me that spray poison on everything.  And the truck load after truck load of wood chips I move around.  Other than that though, I just stick things in the ground and they grow.

Where are you? I didn't say in Alaska (based on -40F... obviously at 95F this is just a jab), and my intention wasn't all inclusive. Georgia is probably pretty reasonable.

I would do anything to have some clay. I had to buy 100lbs of kitty litter for my proposed earthen oven. Every example online says I went out back and dug it up. 8 feet down here and it's more sand.

Honestly, I am so Floridian I just don't even know how other places work. I remember browsing temperatures randomly on my iPhone and Chicago was at 105F.

Jeff Steez wrote:
The interesting bit is that people just now are really reaping off of their generational wealth, land purchased by a family 400 years ago, or a company started 200 years ago. That stuff really inhibits the possibilities afforded to others. I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just that if you're not on the winning end of that type of thing this far into American history, you're kind of screwed to some extent.

How do you explain the millions of people that don't fall into those categories that have been successful in whatever area they chose?  

Jeff Steez wrote:

Trace Oswald wrote:

Jeff Steez wrote:David The Good said apparently other people north of here mostly just stick things in the ground and they grow…  

That's how it is here.  I just stick things in the garden and they grow.  Except my heavy clay soil that I spend years working into good garden soil.  And the daylight hours that are very short most of the year.  And the -40F temps in the winter.  And the frost that we get in Sept.  And the frost that doesn't end until June some years.  And the deer and rabbits that eat everything.  And the perennials that can't survive the winters here.  And the summers that are 95F and 75% humidity.  And the quack grass.  And the people all around me that spray poison on everything.  And the truck load after truck load of wood chips I move around.  Other than that though, I just stick things in the ground and they grow.

Where are you? I didn't say in Alaska (based on -40F... obviously at 95F this is just a jab), and my intention wasn't all inclusive. Georgia is probably pretty reasonable.

I would do anything to have some clay. I had to buy 100lbs of kitty litter for my proposed earthen oven. Every example online says I went out back and dug it up. 8 feet down here and it's more sand.

Honestly, I am so Floridian I just don't even know how other places work. I remember browsing temperatures randomly on my iPhone and Chicago was at 105F.

I live in Wisconsin.  You would do anything to have some clay because you don't have any.  You wouldn't want nothing but clay, believe me.  My point was, everywhere has challenges.  The grass isn't greener everywhere else.

Trace Oswald wrote:

Jeff Steez wrote:

Trace Oswald wrote:

Jeff Steez wrote:David The Good said apparently other people north of here mostly just stick things in the ground and they grow…  

That's how it is here.  I just stick things in the garden and they grow.  Except my heavy clay soil that I spend years working into good garden soil.  And the daylight hours that are very short most of the year.  And the -40F temps in the winter.  And the frost that we get in Sept.  And the frost that doesn't end until June some years.  And the deer and rabbits that eat everything.  And the perennials that can't survive the winters here.  And the summers that are 95F and 75% humidity.  And the quack grass.  And the people all around me that spray poison on everything.  And the truck load after truck load of wood chips I move around.  Other than that though, I just stick things in the ground and they grow.

Where are you? I didn't say in Alaska (based on -40F... obviously at 95F this is just a jab), and my intention wasn't all inclusive. Georgia is probably pretty reasonable.

I would do anything to have some clay. I had to buy 100lbs of kitty litter for my proposed earthen oven. Every example online says I went out back and dug it up. 8 feet down here and it's more sand.

Honestly, I am so Floridian I just don't even know how other places work. I remember browsing temperatures randomly on my iPhone and Chicago was at 105F.

I live in Wisconsin.  You would do anything to have some clay because you don't have any.  You wouldn't want nothing but clay, believe me.  My point was, everywhere has challenges.  The grass isn't greener everywhere else.

I will count my blessing of sand, which is far more useful than clay.

Trace Oswald wrote:

You wouldn't want nothing but clay, believe me.  My point was, everywhere has challenges.  The grass isn't greener everywhere else.

Exactly - I've got plenty of clay - generally more than I need - and a surplus of rocks. However, I was watching geology and archeology videos on Youtube last winter and was amazed at how much of the lower Mississippi valley is all sand without a single rock for miles. That was enough to get me appreciating my rocks a little more! There are definitely things I can do with rocks that I couldn't do with sand.

Jeff - I'm really glad you're reading/watching the David the Good stuff - he's done a lot of work in your eco-system. You commented in the last couple of days that you'd bought "grow bags". You may find they dry out faster than something like a wicking bed, but maybe not in your ecosystem ( I'm way up on Vancouver Isl which is wet all winter and dry much of the growing season - we have our own challenges!)

You also have mentioned getting a van. I know you don't want to use much fuel, but if you can find a cheap source of the black plastic barrels, there are plenty of examples here on permies about turning them into great small gardens. I use a bunch of them because the one area of reliable sun was turned into a parking lot by former owners. I plunked the barrels on top of the gravel, put lots of punky wood in the bottom, and I've grown tomatoes, beans, lettuce, cabbage, potatoes and more in them. The 3 I started with has gradually expanded to 10 and then I was given some large tree pots which expanded things by another 4 (the barrels are better as I can drill the drainage holes 1 1/2 inches up from the bottom to create a bit of a reservoir - good for my climate).

I believe David the Good has also been adding biochar to his beds with good results. Do I recall correctly Trace, that you also make and use biochar? It will improve both clay and sandy soils, as it holds on to nutrients and moisture. Biochar can be made with tree/shrub prunings, or damaged packing pallets (so long as they say "HT" or Heat Treated). Biochar doesn't have to be made perfectly to be helpful - good enough is good enough!

We all have to keep on learning and experimenting and finding what works in our neighborhoods/on our land.

Jeff, I can sympathize with your frustration. I live in a city (thankfully an old-fashioned one with more green spaces than, say, NYC), near to my parents. My parents did the farm thing in their youth and noped out of there after the state forced them to kill all their chickens due to a salmonella outbreak - the best thing they can say about it is that it was a learning experience and now they know they never want to farm anything again. Thankfully that doesn't mean they don't like growing things - I share a few community garden plots with my mom.

And that's a thing that's nice about my city - there is a large group of people into urban farming with a series of community gardens. Is there something similar in your area? (I know in Florida it might be more difficult). Even if your family isn't involved in it, community groups like that are a good place to meet like-minded individuals. Is there a farmer's market near you? Maybe the farmers there could use some help, or just willing to talk about permaculture with you.

I live in a city apartment and it will take me awhile to earn the money needed for land nearby. I have no experience building, so my plan is to hopefully get land with a small house and start from there. But it's frustrating waiting for that to happen. So I work the community garden plot, and tend my window plants, and I found a teacher to teach me sewing, and I'm trying to badger my dad to teach me basic woodworking. I've taught myself crochet and make my own grocery bags. I make my own yogurt, and am attempting fermenting other things. I try to bake my own bread, and cook most of my food (going out has always been a treat, not something common).

I am definitely not always successful. I attempted basket-weaving and nearly cut the tip of my finger off. I've yet to succeed in fermenting anything other than yogurt, or at least anything I want to eat. I often forget to make bread, so when I need it I have to buy it. We have had a total of 5 zucchini coming from our many plants at our community plot this summer and the Mexican bean beetles decimated the beans.

But I am enjoying my permie attempts! I know I may never be a homesteader with a cow and sheep, a spinning wheel and loom, acres of food forest, or build my own house. But I do what I can to improve myself, little by little, and try to enjoy the process. My understanding of permaculture is that the point is not the end product - a picture-perfect homestead, but the process of becoming more and more self-reliant, learning news things, and improving oneself and one's knowledge.  So I guess that is my suggestion - do what you can and enjoy the process, both successes and failures, as I think even if you succeed in your wildest dreams, if you don't learn to enjoy the process you won't enjoy the dream either.

Caitlin Robbins wrote:And that's a thing that's nice about my city - there is a large group of people into urban farming with a series of community gardens. Is there something similar in your area? (I know in Florida it might be more difficult). Even if your family isn't involved in it, community groups like that are a good place to meet like-minded individuals. Is there a farmer's market near you? Maybe the farmers there could use some help, or just willing to talk about permaculture with you.

Excellent point! It isn't necessary to to own land. You just need access to land.

this is a picture of one of my garden areas at home in my little urban yard.   It's 6 approx.  4x4 beds with a wire trellis between.

What I grew in this small area this year:   lettuce, endive, arugula, dill, chard, parsley, melons, pole beans, runner beans, cucumbers, zucchini,  stevia, lemon basil, cucamelons, mustard greens, green onions, paste tomatoes,  spoon tomatoes.   I ate fresh salads all spring and early summer, and had enough zucchini and green beans to can some.

Are you familiar with Charles Dowding on Youtube?   He's not "permaculture" but he is organic and really good at succession planting and composting.   One of his gardens is a demo garden of a SMALL family veggie patch, and he regularly shows how much he can get out of that small plot,  when he plants,  what he plants together for best yeilds, etc.   It's really inspiring.  Check him out if you can!  

OH,  I forgot,  fennel and kale too ;)   and some marigolds and cosmos!    Edit:  and peas.   lol

I will also mention expenses.    Free chipdrop wood chips,  pallet board bed sides.   Home compost from rabbit manure, kitchen waste, starbucks free coffee grounds, and yard waste.

Leaf mold free from the city to add to beds.   I PURCHASED the wire panels and U-posts for the trellis but that is all.   Ocean State here has 40% off ALL their seeds all year, so I can buy from their organic section and afford it.   I now save a lot of my own seed as well.  

It took 3 summers to get to this level of soil health and productivity,  with very little $$$ input.   I didn't buy soil or fertilizer, and I water with rain barrel collected water.  

Time was my biggest expense aside from the wire panels, and time is something that will go by regardless of how I spend it, so it may be investing in increasing productivity and soil health.   I finally could afford soil testing this year,  results came back really excellent.   All my nutrients are above optimal and thankfully no lead/hazards in any concerning amts.

Heather Staas wrote: I will also mention expenses.    Free chipdrop wood chips,  pallet board bed sides.   Home compost from rabbit manure, kitchen waste, starbucks free coffee grounds, and yard waste.

Leaf mold free from the city to add to beds.   I PURCHASED the wire panels and U-posts for the trellis but that is all.   Ocean State here has 40% off ALL their seeds all year, so I can buy from their organic section and afford it.   I now save a lot of my own seed as well.  

It took 3 summers to get to this level of soil health and productivity,  with very little $$$ input.   I didn't buy soil or fertilizer, and I water with rain barrel collected water.  

Time was my biggest expense aside from the wire panels, and time is something that will go by regardless of how I spend it, so it may be investing in increasing productivity and soil health.   I finally could afford soil testing this year,  results came back really excellent.   All my nutrients are above optimal and thankfully no lead/hazards in any concerning amts.

Yea, our backyard is not large and I have contacted multiple arborists for wood chip drops but they always want to drop semi-loads on our front yard. The HOA would not hear any of that, neither would my normie family.

The reason I haven't used my rain barrels yet is because I can't figure out how to use them. I can't attach them to the gutter and feed my food with them because I read roof shingles are pretty questionable. I think I need to build a little wood shed that houses firewood, with a sloped metal roof, and attach a mini gutter to that so I can harvest what I can.

I'm scouring the internet rabidly. If I see land I remotely feel anything towards I think I'm going to pull the trigger if the financing rate is good. I can't live in misery much longer feeling sorry for myself. I know land is what I want so the debt is just a necessity, I don't have any other way out.

Something important I learned from a friend who works in mental health: A person will not change until the pain of remaining the same is worse than the perceived pain of change.

Something else I learned from the same friend: you cannot change anyone but yourself.

And finally, from working in tech: aim for minimum viable product, then iterate, iterate, iterate.

I had to put these together for myself. My spouse is a delightful human, but he needs to see something working before he will join in. It’s been years of slowly, incrementally changing our lifestyle and surroundings to one that feels closer to something permie. And now he’s talking about building a rocket stove…

Perhaps I could use some more focused advice, for me, but also AS me without, as you said, changing me into someone else.

A couple points:

- Refuse to do non-Earthy work, or non-traditional work. Have a desire to do blacksmithing (tool and knife making) as well as general woodworking, specifically instrument making and bow making. Big interest in baking with freshly milled grains. Currently have about $1,000 a month available, could be mostly freed up pretty quickly if I could grow my own food and if I had access to timber.

- Don't have a car. Generally don't want one. Living in a van is as far as I will go vehicle wise. However, living in undeveloped land, perhaps a truck with a small tow shelter is better? I would very easily be able to live in a series of multiple small structures instead of a giant thing. Like a yurt for sleeping, a couple small cabins for woodworking and blacksmithing, etc... sounds amazing actually.

- Don't have land. Prefer about 10+ acres to fart around on. Trees and water would be huge bonuses, trees are almost a necessity though.

- Not interested in getting around on ATVs or whatever else, huge interest in horses.

- Love dogs

- Fine with living off grid, but would really help to have a mailbox, doesn't seem to be any other way to get metal anymore without driving all over and salvaging... I'd have to have blacksmith metal shipped as well as tone woods for instruments

This is what I desire. A tiny bit of modern society (shipping metal, tone woods for instruments, a van) with the rest as 90% traditionalism... if fossil fuels become inaccessible even this life style is pretty screwed. Getting any of these things is nearly impossible for me without financing, it's just too expensive to live down here. Land, van/conversion or truck/tow shelter, homestead materials, chickens, dogs, bees... These things add up and not all are easily salvaged from the land.

Do I just randomly buy land on the internet while I fix up a van or try to find a truck/trailer combo? I mean... Is it that easy? Is that the smart thing to do? The pain is becoming more and more but I also don't want to screw up what amounts to my one shot at this.

Did you say you were in Florida?   Another youtube inspiration to check out might be Rob Greenfield.   He grew all his own food down there, for one year, without owning any land.   He used a bicycle and wagon to get around.   He also built a very simple cabin to live in and showed how he lived out of it,  and his outdoor kitchen as well.  Fascinating to see what he did, how he worked around some issues and might be things you can adapt/incorporate into what you are looking to do.  

Jeff Steez wrote:Perhaps I could use some more focused advice........

Having read your posts and the advice given, it is totally focused.  It is about how you want to deal with it.
If we are given lemons, we make lemonade, and if we are given shit, we make compost.

In short, it is about attitude, self talk and straightening the headspace.  I had a period where I sat in a chair, completely emotionally numb for two weeks.  I identified that I needed to care for the chickens and actually contribute to my own recovery.  I was the only one who could make the change.  It is not about others, it is about my headspace and how I make it better.  The fact that the other family members do not get it, is not a reason or an excuse.  Paul Wheaton says it is about building a better world in my back yard.  I take that to mean a plot of land or a flowerpot.  In my opinion, it is what I have available to start with.  But it is mine and I have to start some where.  Doing is the greatest way to move forward; and this has been said above.

I worked with a very successful person, who was not always successful. Started out as a migrant living in abject poverty.  Her mantra was "You have enough".  AND it is true.
My focused advice to you is to step up to the plate, take a deep breath and then step off to success.  But along the way remember that failure is a stepping stone to success.  Not starting is the equivalent to quitting neither of which equal failing.

Douglas Alspenstock posted above "scrounge .........."  Get back to the "you have enough" All the advice above will help you get to where you need to get to to start BUT and it is a huge BUT you are the only one who can do it because you have enough already.  The other bit of advice from the same lady was: "Just do it"

Permies is a great family to be a part of but like all families, it is always great to hear and see "can do" rather than "can't do".  There are some great folk here who despite serious adversity have gotten on with the job and are a beacon for others like yourself and myself to succeed.  Their stories are scattered though out Permies as they chronicle their journey to success.
I wish you every success with your Permies journey of discovery, including getting some simple Badge Bits completed.

Jeff Steez wrote:...but I also don't want to screw up what amounts to my one shot at this.

My very first "project" if I were you is to get rid of this type of thinking.  How on earth is this your "one shot"?  If you took every single thing I had, right now, this second,  I wouldn't be homeless for more than a couple days.  By the end of next week I would be drawing a paycheck.  Shortly after that I would have some form of transportation, probably a bicycle.  I'm 58 years old and I could start over today if I had to.  You never only have "one shot" at anything.  Until you can change your way of thinking, I fear you will always have a reason you can't get what you want.

Glad to hear some things are working out for you, Jeff, even if you are still struggling with long term plans. I think people had a good suggestion of trying to find a community, like Wheaton labs or other places maybe nearer your family.

I sympathize with the struggle of growing in sand. I once lived in a seaside town with pure sand everywhere. You could not grow hardly anything. People had garden plots out in the woods away from the sand. Now I do actually have have practically magic silty loam soil that most things do just grow when I put them in the ground--(unless some little critter eats them or spoils them, and they do.)  I have no clay either though, which does limit any structural projects. My soil just wants to lay flat and grow stuff. It refuses to be "hilled" more than a few inches, and surely will not be stuck together in any sort of cob or earth block. So some things that others on Permies do I just can't.  

While you're still in Florida, you might also like the tips from Belle's Backyard; they are about vegetable gardening in Florida.

You could join an intentional community