• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nancy Reading
  • Carla Burke
  • r ranson
  • John F Dean
  • paul wheaton
  • Pearl Sutton
stewards:
  • Jay Angler
  • Liv Smith
  • Leigh Tate
master gardeners:
  • Christopher Weeks
  • Timothy Norton
gardeners:
  • thomas rubino
  • Jeremy VanGelder
  • Maieshe Ljin

Reforestation - Growing trees in arid, barren lands - by Seeds and Clay cubes (no watering)

 
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Mediterranean Hartwort
IMG_20240502_123740.jpg
Photo 1
Photo 1
IMG_20240502_123834.jpg
Photo 2
Photo 2
IMG_20240502_123826.jpg
Photo 3
Photo 3
 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Our Farm's Natural Hero: Mediterranean Hartwort

Carpets of lush Mediterranean hartwort blanket our fields, playing a vital role in keeping our soil healthy. This remarkable annual acts like a perennial, faithfully reseeding itself year after year.

The sheer abundance of seeds it produces even keeps the ants at bay! This makes hartwort a perfect choice for recently burned areas, where its dense growth effectively holds the soil and prevents erosion.

Planting couldn't be easier - simply scatter the seeds on the ground, and if the conditions are favorable, they'll sprout on their own. No digging or seed ball preparation required!

This time of the year, is a good time to collect seeds.

Kostas


(The above text was re written by Gemini.ai    .... and it does a good job)



 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Greetings to all !!!
Acorns Sprouting Hope

Today, we revisited a site where we planted acorns a few months ago, nestled amongst the established pine trees.

This project is crucial for us; we're trying to see if we can reintroduce and foster oak trees in this area.

Last year, unfortunately, almost 90% of the pine tree seedlings failed to sprout. However, this year, the opposite is happening! Around 90% of the acorns have sprouted and are thriving.

It's a beautiful sight!

The government's past practice of planting large numbers of pine trees around cities and villages might seem like an easy solution. They grow quickly and cover large areas. However, there's a downside: pine trees are acidic and create a challenging environment for other species.

In contrast, oak trees are like the kings and queens of the forest. Their presence creates fertile soil, stores water, and supports a vast array of creatures - birds, bees, wild pigs, you name it!

Around 250 different species thrive in healthy oak ecosystems.

As the climate changes with rising temperatures and decreasing rainfall, pine trees are becoming more susceptible to disease, death, and wildfires due to their increased flammability.

Our hope is that by successfully establishing oak trees amongst the existing pines, we can create a more diverse and resilient forest. This would provide habitat for a wider range of wildlife and be better equipped to handle the challenges of climate change.

Kostas

(Again thanks to Gemini.ai for the rewrite…a much better communicator than I am)







And



Kostas
 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
A small correction in the 3rd paragraph...

"almost 90% of the pine tree seedlings failed to sprout"

It should read ", almost 90% of acorns failed to sprout"

Kostas
 
pollinator
Posts: 221
Location: North FL, in the high sandhills
93
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
If it's any comfort, here in N. Florida the oaks easily overcome the pines long term. We do seem to have some similarities in climate to you. Definitely more rain though.

There's a huge timber industry here based on pine, and who knows how many acres planted to commercial pine forest, but I'm with you, pines are way too problematic. Particularly the fire problem and falling over and damaging things if near civilization.
some growers here have taken advantage of the acidic pine soil to grow blueberries, which want a very low PH around 4 - 5.

A 50 ft. high wall of solid flame traveling 30 - 40 MPH should be more than enough to scare you way from pines forever. It was for me.

The old timers here had warned me about this, but actually seeing it happen burned it into my memory.

That's what happens here if the understory of the pines isn't cleared out regularly, which is another point against pines...excess labor required...or else.
 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks for the input Dave.

A few questions…

How do you come to the conclusion that oak trees overcome pine trees? What specifically have you observed?

Obviously for all of our sake, I hope you are right (but we can't just be wishful).

How do they plant blueberries…do they cut down the pine trees and plant, or do they plant at the edge of the pine forest? Interesting project. Blueberries are great!!!

Yeah….agree, it's a scary proposition, high winds and fire in a dry pine forest. It can't be stopped.

Kostas
 
Dave Bross
pollinator
Posts: 221
Location: North FL, in the high sandhills
93
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Some friends have put their land under protection from development by putting their land under protection supposedly forever by giving it to an outfit here called Nature Conservancy to preserve it after the die.  

The N.C. wanted the land restored to it's original native pines and the issue with that was that the oaks were the majority species at the time, having begun crowding out pine growth.

To counter argue that, the original settlers of Florida found nothing but huge ancient pine forests with huge diameter pine trees when they arrived, so perhaps the pines come back around eventually in the very long run.

I know the Nature Conservancy concept sounds great but they have been making some terrible mistakes trying to restore land to native species.  The book Beyond the War on Invasive Species by Tao Orion goes into great detail on that.
 
Dave Bross
pollinator
Posts: 221
Location: North FL, in the high sandhills
93
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Forgot to answer on the Blueberries.

They do both, grow on the edges or bulldoze everything and then grow.

I often wondered about growing them in between rows of pines.

The way they harvest the pines is to cut every other row out at a certain age and at some point I'm guessing there might be enough light and low enough PH soil between the rows to pull that off.

 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hey Dave thanks for the input.

Very interesting on the pine trees and the oak trees.

It's good to know that the oak trees are much stronger than the pine trees and they will dominate the area. That's a very important piece of information; it gives us hope. To have actual living examples helps.

The Nature Conservancy is misguided to say the list. Masanobu Fukuoka, San recommended for both a farm or a forest that we plant hundreds of types of trees, shrubs and grasses and to let nature or the land choose what it wants to grow. Nature will make the choice, not the limited human mind.

A large variety of plant life will benefit both the soil and all life that thrives on it.

Masanobu Fukuoka, San was a brilliant mind in the same league with Einstein, Aristotle and the other great thinkers. So we should consider his thoughts carefully.

I stumbled into the idea of oak trees in a pine Forest by accident.

I wish I could say that I read it somewhere or that I reasoned and I concluded it was a good idea but that's not the case. It was completely by accident.

Over the years I tried planting almond trees, apricot trees, wild pear trees and other types of trees among the pines, but they would sprout, then withered away.

I had to see it to believe it.

To see these young oak trees emerge brings a smile to my face and a burst of happiness that we rarely get in this life without the use of mind altering substances (lol).

They may hold the key to our survival on this land, especially here in Southern Europe.

I hope they have a chance to grow to 500 or 1000 years.

Kostas
 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Greetings,

Last year, a friend generously gave us a collection of apricot and cherry seeds to plant. Unfortunately, after planting them, I didn't see any trees sprout this year.

Recently  I purchased some apricot and cherry fruit from a farmer's market and I am preparing them for planting in the winter.

Today I conducted a simple float test, to assess seed viability. This involved placing the seeds in water – those that sink are generally considered viable, while floaters are typically not.

It should be noted that for cherry seeds, we should wait 48 hours or more before making a viability determination.

To my surprise, about 90% of the seeds floated!

To confirm, I cracked open some seeds from each group. As expected, the sunken seeds were plump and healthy, while the floaters were either empty or shriveled.

This test highlights the importance of checking seed viability and having good healthy seeds before planting.

With limited resources and potential challenges like summer or winter drought, wild pigs, field mice, and frost, we can't afford to waste time and effort on non-viable seeds.

Kostas

Again, gemini.ai helped with the rewrite


 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Greetings,

Today, I visited the abandoned Stone quarry near Thessaloniki.

This quarry has been left to nature for the past 50 to 75 years.

In February, we planted a few holm oaks and some bare root cypress trees in an effort to restore the landscape.

We returned to the site today to check on the progress of our plantings.

To my delight, I discovered that several of the holm oak trees are thriving and showing signs of growth. However, none of the cypress trees we planted have survived.

Despite the loss of the cypress trees, the successful growth of the holm oaks is an encouraging sign.

This winter, we plan to try planting the site again.

The abandoned quarry remains a visible scar on the landscape for kilometers around.

With patience and the right approach, we can work to heal this damaged ecosystem. It will take years; it's not going to be easy.

We want to see how many of these oaks survive the summer.

Kostas


this time thanks goes to perplexity.ai for the rewrite

 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Greetings,

Today, we visited a site that we have previously identified as "Difficult Site".

The reason for this classification is that the site is located along the side of a road and consists primarily of rocky terrain.

Despite the unfavorable conditions, we have approximately 20 almond trees on the bank.

Additionally, we have managed to grow a considerable number of evergreen oak trees, which are currently brown, but we are hopeful that they will soon sprout and flourish from their base.

If the evergreen oaks do indeed sprout and grow, we will have effectively reforested this area.

Given sufficient time, the evergreen oaks will cover the entire site and will endure for centuries to come.

These are big IF's

We are prepared to continue placing seeds in the ground.

kostas


 
Dave Bross
pollinator
Posts: 221
Location: North FL, in the high sandhills
93
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

About the oaks and cypress - The varieties we have of those here in N.Florida require radically different environs to even survive...mainly, the cypress wants a LOT of water and the oaks can get by on very little. Swamps and river banks are the only place you see cypress here.

Apricots and cherries - They just will not grow here. I think the hot dry then hot wet cycles kill them but that's just a guess.  They also need a good bit of cold to fulfill their chill hour requirement and that isn't happening here.
 
Posts: 2
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
hello all.  i have planted desert willows purchased from nurseries in the arid desert of southern utah, and the seeds volunteer readily in areas next to large rocks or rain runoff.  while i have not eaten the prolific seeds, the blossoms attract hummingbirds, and local wildlife does collect and eat the seed.  with your inspiration i will increase seed planting - they are taprooted plants and might do well to foster other trees.  honey mesquite and screwbean mesquite also do well here, resistant to both heat and cold.
 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
That great news deannagay,

If you could send some photos or video to tell the story, it would be greatly appreciated.

Kostas
 
Posts: 5
3
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I just read this article https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/forests-and-global-change/articles/10.3389/ffgc.2024.1343069/full that came out this year and I thing it is very related to this thread. It talks about the place of Prickly Pear / Opuntia cactuses in Mediterranean reforestation.

A statistic that really shocked me there is that "Average natural regeneration density under prickly pear was almost double that under olive trees and almost 30 times higher than in open areas"

This picture shows how oaks survive well near prickly pears:


Of course you need to keep in mind the invase-ability of the cactus, but it goes on to say that it really is not invasive in the Mediterranean basin. If you do want to be extra careful though, it would not hurt to go back every 2-3 years to where it is planted.

I think a practical use of this article would be to plant a seed (like you are doing Kosta), and also plant 1-2 cactus pads in such an angle as to cause most shading. Later as the tree grows, the cactus dies and regeneration can happen more efficiently.

I think I will try this method on my 4000m^2 marginal plot, especially because Sifnos already has many prickly pear cactuses growing throughout very marginal areas.
 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thank you for writing Mario.

It's good to hear from you. If you could give us an updates on your almonds. If they didn't survive at all ie if you had 100% failure rate, that's all right. As we mentioned before failure and set backs we should welcome them. Easy success should be viewed suspiciously.

Very interesting concept to utilize the cactus pads to create a mini environment for our seeds such as acorns, almonds, etc.

Good article.

The cactus pads may allow us to plant trees in semi desert environments such as the Middle East or Northern Africa.

Kostas
 
Posts: 120
Location: Perth, Western Australia
13
cat duck forest garden composting toilet rocket stoves composting
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Konstantinos Karoubas wrote:Hello everyone,

Trying to grow trees in arid zone/barren places is difficult and expensive, in both time and money. Both are scarce commodities. One way to establish ground cover and to create new soil is to plant closely spaced trees. I have found here in Greece that almond tree and apricot tree nuts will sprout without any care and produce trees without watering or any care.

Simply bury the nuts in the ground in late September and in late spring you will have young trees growing - they do not need to be watered - even in the sizzling heat of August the young trees survive - in the first year, the young trees shed their leaves and even the trunk dies, but in the second spring the trees come back.

To me this amazing - a person can devote an hour of his/her life and create a mini forest using almond and apricot nuts. Care of course must be taken to collect nuts from healthy and disease free trees - not to old or young, etc.

I hope others will try this in arid/barren places and report back on the results. Also if you have any experience with other trees that have the same characteristics please let us know.

We need to plant millions of trees and every bit helps.

Kostas



I have learned that trees that are planted remain scared for 1/4 of the lives. So I have stopped planted seedlings. This year I did plant seeds instead, after reading what Konstantinos has to say.  But that isn't right either. Scattering the seeds is better, not just more efficient in time, as K tells us so eloquently, but also as then they will find a place where the Earth welcomes them. And that's really important. We all need to feel welcome where we live, trees included. We just have to accept that may not be where we wanted them!
 
marios levi
Posts: 5
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Konstantinos Karoubas wrote:
If you could give us an updates on your almonds. If they didn't survive at all ie if you had 100% failure rate, that's all right. As we mentioned before failure and set backs we should welcome them. Easy success should be viewed suspiciously.

Very interesting concept to utilize the cactus pads to create a mini environment for our seeds such as acorns, almonds, etc.

Good article.

The cactus pads may allow us to plant trees in semi desert environments such as the Middle East or Northern Africa.



From about 72 almond saplings that came out from seed last spring, I watered 30 of them through the summer last year. Then from October2023-April2024 I stopped the watering completely and just let the limited rains water them. They survived the winter but almost all of them had wind/cold burns on the top of their branches which were dead, about the top 10cm at most. So they all started shorter than last year. This year in April, I put drip irrigation on about 25 of the "best" ones (healthiest or good spot on the land), and those are doing very well. Here are some pics of some of my favorite ones that get irritated. Scale is hard to tell from images, but they are all about 60-85cm tall at the highest point. No fertilizer or anything else except weekly drip watering. Images named Watered#.png


Of the remaining ~40 almond trees I, let about 25 of them be completely on their own, of which 7 have survived, although very short and not the healthiest looking as can be seen in the pictures NotWatered. This is their second year of no watering- I simply put seeds in September of 2022 and they have made it until today with only extremely limited rains (I did dig around some of them and put mulch though one time).

The remaining random amount of almond trees I water them manually sometimes if I feel like it, or they are close to some other irrigated ones and take water from there, etc. Not great for science experiment statistics...

On a side note, I had put fig cuttings early last year, with only some manual watering, and all of them died. This year I retried but put drip irrigation as well, and of the 18 I put in April, half of them have rooted very well and seem to be doing great...
Watered3.PNG
[Thumbnail for Watered3.PNG]
Watered2.PNG
[Thumbnail for Watered2.PNG]
Watered1.PNG
[Thumbnail for Watered1.PNG]
NotWatered2.PNG
[Thumbnail for NotWatered2.PNG]
NotWatered1.PNG
[Thumbnail for NotWatered1.PNG]
 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thank you for the update Mario,

The pictures look great.

You are well on your way into creating a mini Forest; a mini food Forest.

The Islands in the Aegean which now are bare, used to be heavily forested. Wild animals and water springs were everywhere on those islands; a paradise on earth.

The trees and the forests attract the rain clouds. The absence of trees and bare grounds send the clouds away.

Unless we really really understand this concert we're never going to correct the situation we're in.

Building dams or desalination plants do not really address the problem we have.

So I'm happy to see your trees growing whether watered or not it does not matter.

You're on your way to create green space and to lower the ground temperature.

Bravo and thank you.

Keep us posted and let us know if we can help (we can send seeds etc).

Kostas
 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Greetings to all, hope all is well in your corner of the world.

I am sharing this video.

It's our effort to use this drone technology to scatter seeds.

Its a tool that is used mostly for photography or as a tool for war\destruction.

It can help us heal the land and multiplies and expands the capabilities of one person to have a positive impact.

The vid is self explanatory, and the text below is from the description section of the video.

Kostas

This nearby mountain, is surrounded by four villages. Once it served as a vital resource for the local community. Seventy-five years ago, over 20,000 goats grazed on its slopes, while villagers harvested oak trees for charcoal and firewood. This continued until the early 1970s, leaving the mountain's topsoil depleted and covered in oak shrubs.

In an effort to restore this natural area, we started a reforestation project last year. We planted acorns on the mountain's peak and transplanted young cypress trees.

It's been a very difficult summer !!!
I hope some of these young trees will survive.

This year, we plan to employ a drone to drop seeds of annuals like Mediterranean heartwort, arugula, and Swiss chard, as well as perennials like oregano. We will also introduce rock rose seeds and the Christ thorn shrub (palurius), a valuable source of nectar for bees.

Through these actions, we aim to reforest the mountain that has given so much.

It's a difficult task.




 
master pollinator
Posts: 4964
Location: Due to winter mortality, I stubbornly state, zone 7a Tennessee
2120
6
forest garden foraging books food preservation cooking fiber arts bee medical herbs
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thank you Kostas for continuing to update this thread. I always look forward to reading about your progress.
 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Greetings to all,

I hope all is well.

Two days ago, I visited the abandoned stone quarry near Thessaloniki that we previously reported on.

In the spring, we planted some acorns and young cypress trees there.

Unfortunately, the cypress trees didn't survive, but many of the Holy Oak acorns we planted did; see previous vids.

This summer has been incredibly challenging, with extreme heat and no rain—unlike anything we've ever experienced before.

As I approached the quarry, I was a bit apprehensive about what I might find. However, to my pleasant surprise, I discovered six or seven young Holy Oak trees that had survived.


Though their leaves had turned brown due to the intense heat, their root systems were still alive.

We confirmed this by gently pulling on the trees—if they're dead, they pull right out, but if they're alive, they stay firmly in place.

I was relieved to see these young trees holding on, especially in such a harsh environment.

We planted the acorns at the base of the walkway/driveway on the quarry, where about three feet of sandy stone had been piled up by the mining equipment. This means the young oaks have about a meter of rocky soil/loose rocks for their roots to grow into.

What will happen after that, I'm not sure. Will they find fissures in the rock to keep growing?
I believe and hope that they will.

Our goal is to plant 50 to 100 trees in the area, at very low cost. Hoping that over time, government or community organizations will step in to take it further. There are many potential uses for this space.

So in the next month or two, we will plant more acorns—not just Holy oak acorns, but common oaks and evergreen oaks—and see how they do.

I am very pleased with this situation.

The fact that these young trees survived in these conditions gives me hope.
Kostas


 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Good morning everyone,

We've put together three short videos to help anyone interested in planting acorns.

After collecting acorns, the first step is to clean them and discard any that are diseased or not viable.

We use the water test for this: any acorns that float should be thrown away.

Then, let the acorns dry out a bit by placing them in a strainer.

It's crucial to store these acorns for one to three months. In the past, we used damp straw and stored the acorns under a tree, on the north side to keep them cool.

While this was partially successful, we've found that using damp sand is a better method.

Avoid using sand that's too wet or too dry. The sand should be just damp. Place the acorns between layers of sand.

The bucket with the sand and acorns is placed outside under a table in the shade (northern side of a tree). This way it is kept cool, and protected from rainwater.

We will check on them every two to three weeks. If the acorns are rotting, it means the sand is too wet, and if they're drying out, it means the sand is not wet enough.

We need to master this storage process.

The acorns are starting to mature around here now, but the weather isn't suitable for planting yet. The soil is too dry, and the forecast is warm for this time of year. We'll wait until mid-November to start planting.

It's essential to keep the acorns viable until planting. Otherwise, we won't be able to plant oak trees here and will need to go further north in Europe where acorns mature later. This is expensive, so storing them locally is crucial.

I hope this information is helpful to those interested in planting trees.

Thank you.

Kostas

...


....


...
 
Posts: 17
1
forest garden fungi bee
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Kostas,

Thanks for your continued effort on reforestation and posting to this thread!

I was wondering if you have tried planting nettle tree (Celtis Australis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtis_australis).
I have seen it grow in very a similar climate in full sun in Spain and it does incredibly well.
It may be a native in your region?

Also, birds and animals love the fruits/berries and disperse seeds.

Keep up the good work, it's very inspiring!

 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thank you for the kind words of encouragement Dalo.

I'm familiar with the Celtis trees and believe they would be excellent choices for reforestation, especially in burned-out areas.

I haven't had a chance to experiment with them yet, but I'm interested in learning more about how they behave when used with clay balls or sown directly in burned-out areas.

Kostas
 
dalo franss
Posts: 17
1
forest garden fungi bee
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Last year I planted a whole bunch, just by putting the seeds in the ground but none have sprouted thus far.
Will wait another winter to see if any will come through, since, none of the Quercus Ilex have sprouted either.

I noticed that in certain regions of Spain people used to plant and pollard "fresno" trees, a bit in a similar way as they do more up north using willow trees.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraxinus_angustifolia
Though most those fresnos do loose their leaves during summer.

I discovered a tree which I believed was a fresno, it barely had leaves that time. Went back today and found out it is probably a sorbus/sorbo/jerba.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cormus_domestica

And now that I'm thinking of trees, there's also a good many olm trees here, they grow in many places. Usually where there's some runnof like next to a road. They keep their leaves in summer, and recover fast after some rain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulmus_minor
I planted and spread some thousands of seeds but never found one tree sprouting.

We have a lot of luck with apple, less with pear. though not tested clay balls technique yet. usually sticking in the ground which is a lot slower but seem to yield great results. We have some apples which have been planted from seed in full sun, and have never gotten any water, this is year2 to 3 and they are still going strong, not even loosing their leaves during summer.

Olive does sprout, but very randomly. Usually the ones I did not plant sprout. Very weird :)

I should mention this is a Spanish arid climate. Little rain, hard silt (clay-like) soil, lots of pine (halepensis) rozemary etc... so I think  quite similar to your climate, your pictures look a lot like here.

Keep it up!


 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Keep trying Dalo,

You will succeed !!!

Kostas
 
dalo franss
Posts: 17
1
forest garden fungi bee
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hey Kostas,

I saw your videos from the post from a couple of days ago about harvesting and storing acorns.

What oak was that you harvested? I do not recognize it.

Can you explain in a little more detail when and how to harves the oaks/acorns?
They still look very green. Do you only pick the off the ground, or take them from the tree also?

Last year I waited until a little later when they already turned brown-ish but had very low germination rates.
When picking them green like that there is probably a lot less weavils boring in them and much more will be good to plant.

What I do is go out and spread a large net under the tree and then carefuly whack the tree branches and many acorns fall in the net.
I harvested some 6500 acorns in only an hour or 3. But I am not sure this is the best way to go.

I should mention this is Quercus Ilex (holm oak) I am talking about.
I usually try to plant them shortly after collecting them. I use a small pick axe with round point to make a hole and stick the acorn in.

Do you think this is a good way? Or is it better to store the acorns for a while and then plant them out?

The last years some animal has become very good at finding my seedings and goes from acorn to acorn and steals them all. This is very interesting since it does not steal the acorns lying close to my plantings under other oak bushes (kermes oak). All I find is rows of holes where the acorns where planted.

We also have alot (more even) Quercus Coccifera (kermes oak) which I will start planting this year to get my seeding count up, I aim at 20,000 a year but usually end up around ~12,000.

Before I forget,  I learned about these oak growers in north-east Spain https://balanotrees.org/acorns-as-sweet-as-it-gets/,
found them in a little intersting book/article about edible oaks written by Eric Toensmeier - he status of oak breeding and domestication as food for people and livestock In South Korea, Spain, and the United States.
https://www.perennialsolutions.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Status-of-Oak-Breeding-2.0.pdf

Keep it up






Acorn-planting-pick-tool.jpg
Round tipped pick axe with diameter similar to an acorn.
Round tipped pick axe with diameter similar to an acorn.
Acorns-quercus-ilex-after-harvest-and-sizes.jpg
Different sizes of Quercus Ilex acorns.
Different sizes of Quercus Ilex acorns.
acorns-to-plant.jpg
Harvested Quercus Ilex acorns ready to plant. Harvested too late?
Harvested Quercus Ilex acorns ready to plant. Harvested too late?
quercus-ilex-with-kermes-looks.jpg
A Quercus Ilex 1 year old tree which looks like a kermes oak.
A Quercus Ilex 1 year old tree which looks like a kermes oak.
 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
You ask great questions, Dalo! I'm sure you'll succeed in growing your oaks.

In general:

I wait for the acorns to detach naturally from the cup with a gentle touch. This indicates they're fully mature. The color might vary depending on the oak species.
This year's dry summer resulted in smaller acorns. Here, white oaks are dropping theirs now, while holm oaks wait until December.

When to plant:

Unfortunately, the dry ground would kill planted acorns now. I store them until winter rains and cooler temperatures provide better conditions. This may be November or December.

How to plant:

This fall, I walk a mountain nearby that is partially covered with oak shrubs and stones. Long ago, topsoil was lost. I use a pickaxe to dig planting holes for December. Red spray marks their locations.
When planting between pines, we place acorns right next to the pine's north side. Sadly, wildfires and droughts are harming these pine trees.
When planting acorns, we also sprinkle some small seeds like arugula and alfalfa to also mark the location and to help further shade the young trees.
Come December, the already dug holes make planting easier in the colder weather. The markers also help me find and monitor the sprouting acorns in spring and in the following years.

How to protect the young Oak Trees:

Acorns need protection from the harsh summer sun. We plant them on the north side of shrubs, trees, or large rocks, providing shade for better growth. Also look for areas that have some organic matter.
Thankfully, acorns can thrive near pines or other conifers.

I'm sorry to hear about animals taking your acorns. Maybe identifying them can help find solutions.

Thank you for the website with information on sweet acorns! I've always been interested in acorns as food and might try ordering some trees from them.

Some people in Iran use oaks to feed their goats and make bread. Their lives depend on these oak trees.
Here's a link to a video about them:




Don't hesitate to ask if you have any further questions, Dalo!

Kostas

 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Greetings to all,

Short update.

We continue to collect acorns. These are from central Greece.

There are two different sizes here. The larger brown ones were collected from the ground,
in the courtyard of a monastery.

The smaller yellow and green were collected near a restaurant. We picked them from the tree.
They were about to fall.

We will place them in water and discard the ones that float, then we will store them in damp sand
in a bucket.

I just don't know when we will be able to plant them.

The weather is just not good...high temps and no rain.

I hope we have not reached a point of no return.




Kostas
 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Greetings,

A short update in the struggle to find an inexpensive solution to store acorns.

If anyone has experience with issue...please inform us.

The acorns restored 15 days ago unfortunately are sprouting too early.

We took them out and we separated the acorns with long sprouts and the rest will put them in semi dry sand, almost dry and then we topped them off with some wet sand.

We will see how that works out.

The idea is to keep the acorns alive with very small sprouts for the next two months.


Kostas

 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
we stored not restored

Kostas
 
pollinator
Posts: 366
113
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Kostas,

to keep them longer, keep them cool.
A fridge works (but be careful with humidity level, not too much and no lack thereof).
 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Good point Hans,

Thank you.

Unfortunately I don't have a big enough frig for so many acorns.

I will move them in the basement where at least is cooler than the outside. We been having a warm fall.

The holm oaks which we rely on heavily mature in December around here, which helps out with the storage issue.

Kostas
 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Greetings,

We're continuing our efforts to grow almond trees by seed.

As you may recall, our previous attempts were thwarted by field mice.

To protect our seeds, we've implemented a new strategy: placing them inside a small steel cage and covering it with a heavy stone.

This approach was suggested by our friend Hans Muster. While a couple of locations were still compromised, we're pleased with the overall results.

We'll be planting ten more almonds daily and closely monitoring existing trees to assess their survival rate.

Some of our older trees have weathered the recent harsh summer, and we'll have a better understanding of their status in the spring.




Kostas
 
pioneer
Posts: 65
Location: Salado, Texas
13
hugelkultur forest garden fungi foraging medical herbs ungarbage
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Here are some details from my demo garden in semi-arid climate of central Texas.   I planted several wild apricots on the 1/4 acre plot which is my 1st permaculture style food forest attempt.

The following are 6 trees which all sprouted under a "mama" apricot tree already established on the property.  I dug them up and potted them in May 2022, and planted them under pecan over-story trees in October.  The 1st 3 trees shown below were planted over a small animal carcass buried about 1 1/2 feet.  I dumped all my kitty litter (I use wood chips for kitty liter) in the area of where the 1st tree was planted.   All trees were watered by hand the 1st summer (2023) when we had 100 days of 100 deg + temps with no rain.  They were only barely watered though, just enough to keep them alive.   Also in summer of 2023, I spread woodchips over the entire 1/4 acre to a loosely packed depth of 8" to 12".   I pull the wood chips back away from the bark of all plants/trees.   The apricrot trees shown have not received any extra water this year (except 1 which gets sprayed by the neighbor's system).

DSC02091.JPG
over carcass plus kitty litter, planted (north of overstory pecan)
over carcass plus kitty litter, planted (north of overstory pecan)
DSC02092.JPG
over story died back giving this tree more light
over story died back giving this tree more light
DSC02093.JPG
planted over carcass, planted north of medium overstory
planted over carcass, planted north of medium overstory
DSC02094.JPG
bigger overstory
bigger overstory
DSC02095.JPG
carcass plus bigger overstory, (planted North)
carcass plus bigger overstory, (planted North)
DSC02096.JPG
extra shade here
extra shade here
DSC02098.JPG
lead tree in row, so more dry south wind all summer. also, no carcass
lead tree in row, so more dry south wind all summer. also, no carcass
DSC02099.JPG
no carcass, the closest tree here gets extra water (planted NW of the pecans)
no carcass, the closest tree here gets extra water (planted NW of the pecans)
 
James Bradford
pioneer
Posts: 65
Location: Salado, Texas
13
hugelkultur forest garden fungi foraging medical herbs ungarbage
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
so, to summarize about the trees in last post:

the trees planted over a carcass have base diameter of 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 inches after 2 years
the trees planted with no extra fertility, and extra sunlight, had base diameter of 1 to 1 1/2 inches after 2 years (the one with the extra water of course was the largest of that row).
There was another tree that you couldn't see in the pictures because my planting tables were in the way:  it had extra shade but no extra fertility, and it was 1 1/2 inches at base

in conclusion:  road kill can enhance your tree planting success!
 
Konstantinos Karoubas
pollinator
Posts: 754
141
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Good morning to all,

We're continuing our efforts to store acorns for extended periods in a cost and effective way.

Our latest approach involves relocating them from the basement's constant temperature to the cool, shaded, and windy northern part of our house (at 11 celcius currently).

So far, the acorns appear to be doing up well.

If we can manage to save around 75% of these acorns, I will be happy.

It's the end of October and the land is dry...very dry.

If these acorns were planted now, they would dry out...burn\die.

Kostas


 
hans muster
pollinator
Posts: 366
113
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Dear Kostas,
I am happy to hear that you are trying out the wire mesh for the almonds.
Regarding the technique: I closed it at the bottom as well, as the roots can grow through it. The issue that can be, is that it girdles the roots if it does not rust quickly enough. Therefore it is important to use non-galvanized steel, or scrape it of so it rusts. Depending on the weather and soil conditions, yours may rust quickly enough to not be a problem to your trees.

I start with the mesh open, put a seed inside, place it, fill it with soil, close the wire mesh, and leave it.
 
I RELEASE YOU! (for now .... ) Feel free to peruse this tiny ad:
GAMCOD 2025: 200 square feet; Zero degrees F or colder; calories cheap and easy
https://permies.com/wiki/270034/GAMCOD-square-feet-degrees-colder
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic