Reforestation - Growing trees in arid, barren lands - by Seeds and Clay cubes (no watering)

Antonio, thank you for the information, and your good work.

A few questions.

What is your experience with Sorbus Domestica - is it easily reproduced by seed? Have you tried its fruits ? How are they?

What is the success rate of putting fig sticks in the ground (50%, 100% ?) when do you put them in the ground ?

What is your experience with the carob tree, by cuttings or seeds

Thank You

Kostas

UPDATE SEPT 11 2016

See



This is the 3rd update of the same area that was seeded this past winter - the long hot, difficult summer is almost gone, we had good rains, the temperatures have dropped, and the days are shorter - but, we may still have ahead of us, difficult weather !!!

In any case, many trees have died, at least above ground - I know from past experience that almonds drop they trunks, but are alive underneath - we will see what happens here…It appears that we have about a 25% survival rate - that's a rough estimate - just looking and guessing.

I am grateful for the trees that survived, and by themselves can create a mini forest - I plan on adding more seeds in this area this year and in the years ahead. Again the cost in time and money is minimal for this type of planting.

Kostas

Hello,

I have one mature Sorbus on my land. Fruits are good to me but not to others in my family. This is because "sorbe" are not very juicy and taste like pears but without all that juice. They ripe in October-November as soon as they become red but, at that time, they are quite sour so to eat them you must pick them from the tree and leave them in a basket for a few days. This will soften and sweeten them as their colour changes to brown.

I have found that Sorbus is quite hard to reproduce from seed because seeds have a low germination rate (In the wild this is increased by the passage through birds stomach). However if you use a lot of seeds (each fruit has at least 4 seeds) and if you have cold winters, you should have good results. Each zone and climate is different, I can't tell with 100% reliability. I have seen your video with Walnut trees... Maybe that's a good place for Sorbus. Mature trees also produce some strong root suckers and can be propagated by transplanting them.

Fig sticks have a high success rate. I would say 80-90%... You can put them in the ground when the tree has completely lost its leaves. Here this occurs in December. An old farmer suggested me to put them in the ground in February. I didn't try this yet... But in December I've always had good results. It's important to know that here, in most cases, fig tree is grafted on "male" form which is stronger and vigorous and I think around 100% success rate but does not produce edible fruits.

With the Carob trees I have no experience in direct sowing. I have been sowing them in pots and the technique, like for other legumes, is to sow them in springtime. You put the seeds in a bowl, boil some water and pour it on the seeds. You leave the seeds in the water until they swell and then sow them. However, since I have seen a lot of small seedlings a few years old under a mature tree in the countryside, I think that with large quantities of seed, even without that technique, you should get good results. This I observed in December and at that time there were also newborn seedlings. Consider that here winter is not cold. We have very rarely snow and minimum temperatures around 6 Celsius normally... So if winter is cold maybe you can put in the ground untreated seeds in Winter and treated seeds in Spring. Untreated seeds may not germinate that year because they have a hard coat that doesn't absorb water. The treatment softens it. I have no experience with cuttings. Carobs ripe in November-December and are a good snack!

I hope that I managed to satisfy your questions.

Goodbye!

Antonio

Yes You did

Thank You Antonio

Kostas

SOME OF WHAT I LEARNED IN INDIA, re growing food in dry barren lands .

Margie Bushman from the Santa Barbara Permaculture Network was sharing with me at the North American Permaculture Convergence how valuable the International Permaculture Convergence can be for Permies. I stayed in India for 2 years. The next IPC is in India so it is timely to talk about what i learned in India.

1. Aranya, Narsanna Koppula's food forest where he had not irrigated or fertilized since he started 17 years ago. He has some of the best production i saw in all my travels. In the first years of his trees he used ollas (terra cotta containers) to water them. He has 20 inches of rain a year which comes mostly in two monsoon times, so that there are 5-6 month periods of dry spells. The temperatures are sometimes 125 degrees and often 115 degrees.

2. Dryland farming happens in 70% of Indian agriculture, so it opened to my eyes to what is possible.
There are 3 ways to do this using no till permaculture without fertilizer.

a) Mob grazing, where the ruminant's bellies ferment the food and generate microbes. My favorite video on this is from gabe brown.

b) Mulch. There was a forest next door to Narsanna;s farm so this was his method.

c. Microbial innoculations of bacteria, mycorhizzals, etc. This is used a lot in India and other Asian countries, especially Korea (see Korean Natural Farming, also called Korean Low Budget Farming). Geoff Lawton is using compost tea for large acerage.

We are using microbial innoculations at Terra Lingua Farm. I was highly motivated to start a demonstration of what permaculture is capable of, especially as all of these methods create ecosystems helping carbon sequestration in the soil and therefore mitigate climate change. The carbon in the soil working with the microbes in the soil holds tremendous amounts of water in the soil. It now appears that it is the destruction of ecosystems around the world that is the cause of climate change. There was a mini ice age in Europe after the settler in the America’s wiped out all the ecosystems here set up by the native peoples.

3. Corporations have gotten most Indian farmers to believe (even though they have a 10,000 year history of sustainable agriculture) that they will make more money if they irrigate and use chemical fertilizer. In fact chemical fertilizer causes the plants to gobble as much as 5 times more water and then the plants become weak and attract pests and diseases. Any concentrated fertilizers including organic fertilizers will cause this.. The plants are used to being fed with mulch and their microbe partners and concentrated foods cause them to uptake more water to balance cell osmolality. Too much water also causes problems. Again the plants are used to growing in multicrop systems with cover crops. The plants want only a small amount of moisture which ecosystems filled with microbes and mulch provide.

4. I spoke to many, many farmers who could not afford to dig new bore wells. As the water levels were decreasing so rapidly, they needed to dig a new well every 2 years. The farmers wanted to move to the cities so they could earn an income since they could not afford the bore well.

5. Living for years in this milleau with the humongous numbers of people was serious eye opener to the value of permaculture, as well as to what the farmers leaving their fields would mean for starvation of millions of people.

6. Especially in India hundreds of thousands of farmers are committing suicide because they have mortgaged their land based on this promise of higher returns from industrial agriculture, and when it falls through they lose their land and cannot support their families.

7. I am doing a demonstration to make industrial farming obsolete. We will have less set up costs, no fertilizer, pesticides, herbicide costs and we will get the same or higher prices for the food we grow. Yes a diverse crop will be harder to harvest and possibly to sell.

8. Most of us have read One Straw Revolution and many people do not believe that we can grow here in the U.S. in this way. We most certainly can. Gabe Brown planted 30 acres of vegetables with no till into his cover crops with great results, again with no irrigation and no fertilization in North Dakota with 15 inches of rain a year.

This is the link to the interview I did with Narsannaji regarding his food forest.

http://permacultureindia.org/permaculture-farms/
Aranya's Farm
The Aranya Permaculture Farm Story This mature food forest is the only one I know of in the permaculture world -- a never irrigated dry land food forest, that can increase the ground water (dry land means that it is not irrigated) It is important…
PERMACULTUREINDIA.ORG

Thank You Charlotte,
It will take a while to digest this information, its not a novel to be read fast - I may have questions.
Kostas

Hello,

I read something about what Charlotte posted and, at the same time, today I planted some walnut seeds gathered from some wild trees so I have a question for Kostas: what germination rate did you have with walnut seeds? I noticed that many are damaged by insects...

Thank you.

Antonio

Hello Antonio,
I tried walnuts at 1000 meters elevation, and I was pleased to see "some" growing - I will try them again this year and will do the usual test - which is place 10 seeds in the ground in a trench and see how many sprout and how many grow to survive the summer without watering.
I have not tried them at lower elevations, where the summers are long and hot.
My guess is that walnuts are mre appropriate for high elevations - my guesses have been wrong often in this project.
It does not cost much money or time to place 10 seeds in the ground (around November/December) and monitor them - each area is different.

Kostas

Hello Charlotte,

Very interesting post … thank you for the info on the dry land farming in India.

I am glad you mentioned Gabe Brown … we set down with some friends in Greece and watched one of his presentations...he does an excellent job. A friend remarked that Gabe follows the rules of natural farming as presented by Masanobu Fukuoka, San  --- no tiling, no weeding, no chemicals – essentially he does natural farming on a large scale ...its great news and he does a great job in his presentations.

How do you plan to do your demonstration – farms on a small scale...is your proposal to create, small natural farms ? I see that at the Aranya Farm, they do some tilling to plant the wheat, wild rice etc – how does the dry land rice do with no watering ? Will you be tilling and how?

Will you be using raised beds and manures for your demonstration?

Kostas

narsanna koppula uses a lot of natural farming. only thing he removes are things that he feels are toxic.    yes i will use a lot of natural farming.  will broadcast seed for 20-30 nut and fruit trees, as well as herbs, vegetables and see what natures grow.

no i will not use raised beds or manures.  i am one person on 20 acres and will use only innoculations.  i did use where there was compaction from tractor, some hay to about 3 inches to cover the seed i planted.

Thank You for the update Charlotte.
Pleae keep us posted on your project.
Kostas

Update Oct 24 2016

Getting ready for this year's seeding project…most seeds have been collected/bought and ready to go.

I know what the future of these seeds will look Like !!!

I found an old photograph from 2002, on the farm we had just bought at that time. Using steel rods and mesh, I constructed an area, which I used as a compost pile. For a year or more I dumped every food waste we collected, plus whatever organic matter I could find…some that included bags full of fall leaves and seeds that the city government had left at the side of the streets for later pick up.

I do not remember for how many years I keep putting stuff in…but the area was left alone…nearby I built a house, but made sure the area was not damaged by the construction work.

Without any assistance from me, trees started growing…for many years they were hardly noticeable…I do not remember when I became aware of them.

14 years later, as the photo and video show, we have a mini forest…it includes  3 or 4 varieties of apples (they taste great), 2 grapes, and a few golden rain trees…

4 meters away, 3 years ago, I brought a water line to service a mini outdoor kitchen, so I know  the trees take water from that, and it helps their development…  but they grew all by themselves, and I think they support each other to grow stronger and bigger.

This is what my seeding projects will turn into, 15 - 20 years from now…this mini forest is the future of my efforts…the seeds I place in the ground now, will turn into this !!!

I know… I have seen the future.

Kostas

More Photos

And a video ... it helps





Kostas

THIEVES

The seeding project is nearing a completion (close to 23,250 seeds have been placed in the ground) in the Thessaloniki region.

Yesterday we discovered a major setback…7000 of these seeds have been placed at a location about 1/2 hour South of Thessaloniki. These seeds included almonds, apricots, plums and crataegus. Something has been eating all the almonds…it digs in all the spots that seeds have been placed in, and eats only the almonds…the plum and apricot seeds are not eaten, but they are exposed and will not sprout. Near Thessaloniki the seeds have not been eaten.

Without photo  evidence, we can only guess at the guilty party, which may include rats, birds, or as someone suggested foxes. There are plenty of foxes in the area, and the scat I found in one of the holes (see video), is that of a large animal…

In any case, something needs to be done…this excludes any kind of poison, traps or anything that will harm the culprit or poison the soil…it needs to be practical and easily done.

Any suggestions or if anyone has intimate knowledge of foxes their eating habits etc…it would be appreciated.

The video shows the problem.

Kostas

How sad, Kostas.  Your work is so inspirational.  The only thing that comes to mind is to encase the seeds in clay/compost, as Fukuoka does with seedballs.  But this would be a huge project with so many seeds...  on your amazing project.   Some people make the seedballs in a cement mixer, so that a volume can be processed fairly quickly.  The mixer could be hand powered, if gas or electricity is an issue.  This clay/soil seedball process reduces predation on Fukuoka's seeds by birds and rodents, while giving the seed both environmental protection and the nutrients to get a good start when the rains do come.    

Thank You Roberto,

It's not sad…it just is… Hundreds of years of destruction will not be overturned/corrected in a year.

I am aware of Masanobu Fukuoka, San…that's what got me started in the path to reforestation…for large seeds like apricots and almonds, the clay cubes need to be large..close to 5x5 cm…at the moment it's just as easy to direct seed the almonds than carry around all that clay. For smaller seeds like crataegus  and apples, smaller clay cubes/balls is the answer, and it's most likely the answer for mass reforestation projects.

See the enclosed photos.

Kostas

Awesome.  Great that you are doing this, Kostas.  5X5cm seems pretty big for an almond.  I'm not sure what else to suggest at this time.  Do you think it is just one critter with a hankering for almonds, or a colony of them?,,... I guess you don't even know what it is that is eating the seeds.  Even if you tumbled the almonds in a slip of clay... that might be enough.  Maybe add a deterrent like cayenne?

Roberto, Cayenne pepper, may be a solution…we need to try it and see.

Kostas

Why isn't a non-toxic lethal option acceptable?

Corpses of all creatures [some more legal to work with than others] are a rich source of nitrogen for that food web you're looking to kick off.

My mothe had a problem with cor being dug up. She solved it with a coating of  used motor oil.  If that seems to toxic for you then Sep Holzer's bone broth should work.

Hello Kyrt…Thanks for the suggestion (I mean that)  …it’s a solution to the problem, and it may have to be used…if the guilty party is identified, traps or poison maybe used…it may not be the most economical or ideal solution…but it’s a solution with pluses and minuses.

Hello Hans…the motor oil and bone broth, I would say fall in the same general category as the cayenne pepper, each one has its pluses and minus.

Today I went back in the same general area, and put in the ground around 250 seeds…apricots, plums and crataegus, but not almonds. The culprit I am sure saw me, and will visit the area in the next few days. If it behaves logically, it will open a few holes, find no food, and then move on…. not bother with the rest.

If this occurs, I have seeded the area, with all except almonds.

Βuτ almonds are my favorite…after a 10 year trial and error period, it was the first tree, we identified, that can survive without water…it was a joyous occasion.

So the almonds will be planted, but how and when ?

How late can I plant almonds, and still have them sprout … early spring, late winter?  It will be a trial and error.

Do the winter rains cover the tracks of the other seeds in the ground, so the rodents will not find them?

I do not know if this will work…

Kostas

Many foraging creatures, including foxes and rodents, use their sense of smell to find their food.  The culprit might even have your scent helping him find the food that you plant. They have an incredible knack for finding things with their nose through association.  

Now that the culprit has your scent (or the scent of your helpers [?] ) associated with the seeds, it may dig up all the rest looking for the almonds... as it did in the past, leaving the non-almond seeds uneaten.  Why else would it dig up the non-almonds?  That said, with no almonds in the area, after digging with repeated disappointment, the culprit might move on to find other food.  If the latter is the case, you can always go back into the area in the future to attempt almonds.

The reason that I suggest cayenne pepper is because it (capsicum) is what is used in pepper spray to get rid of problem bears, attacking dogs, and aggressive people, and also Tabasco sauce-a capsicum based condiment, is used to keep animals from getting into bandages that are protecting sutures.  

I doubt that cayenne will have much negative effect on the seedling, or on the predator, other than the latter being repelled due to it's peppery taste.  I suggested Cayenne for four reasons: 1.) because it is relatively cheap to purchase in bulk, 2.) If you are inclined, I think it will easily grow in your environment for very little cost of seeds, 3.) it could be mixed with clay and made into a slip that makes the seeds less likely to be eaten, and 4.) It does no long term harm to the culprit and the harm is very brief and minimal, especially since it encourages the animal to revert back to it's local food sources as this is not a normal food for this animal in this area in the first place.      

I don't know what resources your town has.  So... if you have a local department who deals with problem animals (animal control officer/game officer...?) they may have a live trap (which confines the animal temporarily but does not harm it physically), and be possibly willing to relocate the animal to another area, or at least let you borrow the trap for a few days.  If not relocated, this would at least allow your to know who the culprit is, and so narrow down your methods for intervention.

It may very well be that this area of critter habitat gets no almonds.  Which isn't the end of the world, if the other trees manage to sprout.  

Hello Roberto,

Thanks for the info on the cayenne pepper. I have some lying around.

I may try it soon…take a bucket full of almonds (2,000 or so)…dump a packet of cayenne pepper in it…mix well so all the almonds get covered, put on gloves and place the seeds in the ground… I will let you know how it goes.

There are no town services like animal control etc…

Cayenne pepper has many uses…when my father had severe pneumonia years ago… we used the cayenne pepper in soups to help heal his lungs…he recovered quickly.

Kostas

Hello Roberto,

Its a good thing I was lazy...I only planted about 100 almonds with cayenne pepper...our predator ate all of them... see video...I am beginning to get concerned that this animal may become overweight with all the almonds its eating !!!

Maybe I should have used more pepper...I only used a dusting...during the end of the planting, the wind blew some of it  in my left eye...powerful stuff.

The second test area, I only placed apricots, plums and Cretaceous seeds...here the rodent, opened about 5 to 10% of the holes, found no almonds, and gave up.

Kostas

This would lead me to recommend considering an almond free zone for this small region, or...                     ............use your cement mixer tumble the almonds in a slip of clay with even more cayenne?

!!!

Hello and Happy Holidays...all the best !!!

I found an old Photo from 2007, of the mini food forest growing from the compost pile...it shows the young trees...the house was under construction...they opened my eyes to the possibilities of reforestation and food forests.

Kostas

Hello all, γεια χαρά Κώστα,

I am fairly new to the forum, not the material/subject matter discussed.  It seems as this thread alone would take me weeks to go through in detail, but the object is very interesting.

The soil that Kostas is dealing with seems something between dead clay and dead sand, with the usual for Greece high content of Calcium, which seem to block the absorption of many nutrients that plants need.  So even when you have a good water supply it is hard to kick start something in such an environment.  You need to create soil from scratch, you need to find out what weeds and grass possibly grows nearby and help it grow.  Anything helps.  I would get in touch with gardening services in the area especially in the fall, and offer to pick up the bags of leaves and trimmings from the yards they work on.  Make 1cu.m stacks like Geoff Lawton has described and attempt this 18day composting method.  Before you know it you may have gained a few cm. of soil,

My project and speculation at this point, my main reason of trying aquaponics/hydroponics, is to see whether small or large trees, bushes, can be first grown in grow beds with amplified nutrients, then replanted on the ground once they are of significant size.  Also making cultures of mycorrhizal from nearby wild woods using the rice bags in stocking technique and buckets of molasses sweetened water on the roots once the trees get planted.  It seems as the chances of getting seedlings to grow in such soil and maintain adequate moisture of the roots to grow are dismal.  If you don't water them they dry out, if you do you are forming a clay barrier they can not break through.

@Kostas: I talked about your project in this thread (don't worry, nothing bad

https://permies.com/t/61247/Ecosystem-restoration-camps-John-Liu#524077

Maybe you see something as well?

Hello Hans...not a problem...Have a great Year...may you plant and grow millions of trees !!!

Hello Roberto...very interesting, to use hydroponics to grow small trees for transplanting.

How do you go about determining what trees to grow?

Keep us posted.

Kostas

PS
As far as placing organic matter for reforestation activities...its not practical for me...the idea is to plant thousands of closely spaced trees, so they will act as a ground cover, and to create a micro climate, to quickly create new soil. The idea is to empower one person (or a few people) to have a major impact, with very little money or energy. Once ground cover is established, then many varieties of trees and shrubs can be planted.

Hi Kostas,

Great post. Well done.

I am from Malta. I have 2 locations. 1 will share my experience from.

The property is my father's but we share the passion. He is not into permaculture and is into exposing soil.

We have between 200mm and 300mm of rain annually usually in 3 to 4 months. Our property is south facing.

I can say that almonds are perfect growers in dry solid terrain. I plant a number annually. Also I do 2 types of apples from seeds and also a red berry tree/bush we call maskta.

Carob treez from seeds do grow. We have 4 large carob trees and from the females we always have around 10 news that sprout on their own. Just my father's mowes them as they grow in the middle where he does onions winter potatoes garlic broad beans and peas.

Some notes once burned almonds resprout on their own at least 70 percent. Apples too if it's in the dormant season. Figs die. And prickly pears grow like crazy and never die.

Pencamarine

Kostas,
Have you tried planting any more almonds in the area they were eaten? It seems that the animal can't smell the almond seeds (because they are digging up all the seeds you plant). So, probably they can just smell that you have been digging and hope to find an almond. I don't know how hard the ground is to dig there, but what if you dug lots of decoy holes. Dig ten holes, but only put an almond in one of them. Maybe the animal would get tired with the low rate of return on its digging and give up?

Hi

Great thread heaps of inspiring stuff

As the thread is so HUGE i will be reading it all over the next few weeks.


I'm in Australia and have a similar climate to you so if not done already I will put a BIG vote in for Robinia pseudoacacia they are one tough tree and can be grown from "root suckers" very easily.

best of luck

Hello Adrian,

Glad to hear the almond tree survives the fires...very encouraging...you obviously have experienced the destruction of fire--sorry to hear that.

I also glad to hear the carob trees produces trees with such ease. Where I grew up in Southern Greece, I never saw small trees growing underneath these trees... even though hundreds of seeds fell to the ground...I have a hard time reproducing them from seed...this year I am trying again and will let you know how it goes.

The olive tree is another tree we would like to incorporate in the reforestation efforts, but I have no idea how to go about growing olive trees from seeds...people have mentioned birds etc, but nothing specific.

If you can, put some carob seeds in the ground, and observe to see how many sprout in the spring, and how many survive the summer (let us know), we may end up buying your variety of carob seeds !!!

Is there another name for the maskta tree ?  It sounds interesting.

I met with some wonderful people in Crete over the weekend...they mentioned that the Blackthorn (Prunus Spinosa) self seeds in the  island. I will try it soon and see how it goes.

Kostas

Hello Fred,

That's a good point...the guilty party/creature does not have good smell, so it digs out all the holes (or the almonds have poor smell?)...it would seem to rule out the fox, which I read has great smell...hunting cameras, may provide the answer...we will see.

Typically, I would like to plant at least 5,000 almonds a year, so decoy holes are not practical...I am sure we will find an answer!!!

Thank You
Kostas

Hello Karl,

I had the same thought on Robinia, when I started out...it did not work out well, as far as surviving the summers from seed, without watering...at least not here...I am sure there are other regions where it does survive...what a great tree !!! Once ground cover is established in the areas I am reforesting, I will definitely plant some small Robinia trees.

Its possible I chose the wrong Robinia to collect seeds...to old, to young, sick etc

Tell us about your region, and what grows there...by the side of the road ...what self sprouts and grows by itself.

Kostas

Hi

very true.....another factor for survival that i strongly suspect particularly with nitrogen fixing plants is poor root inoculation/nodulation. root cuttings/suckers from vigorous trees would solve this problem ..........or soil from around healthy trees to introduce bugs for the seeds....maybe even a seed ball would work.

maybe you could even use a peice of root as a "seed"......have a look at ths   http://living.thebump.com/propagate-black-locust-cuttings-6690.html

regards
Karl

Very Interesting Karl,

Root inoculation for clay cubes is something to consider, and in truth I know nothing about...what quantities of native soil need to be added to each clay cube to be effective, for how long are the microorganisms effective after the clay cube is made etc etc...

If you know please do inform us or direct us to the info...


Kostas