Textiles from seed

Hello permies! And staff! And skippers!

I have a textile question in regards to the 3rd level of textiles badge. And higher. I believe both the wood and iron levels of bbs in textiles refer to creating clothing "from seed." Does this mean the cloth must be cotton, flax or hemp? Or do any animal fibers count? If they count, do you need to start from the raw fleece? Would you need to raise the animal yourself?

Opalyn? Samantha? Paul? Mike? What do you all think?

I am close to this level. I have been working on a number of outfits I made from linnens I bought and also wool I spun myself. I expect to finish the sand badge for textiles this summer, so this isnt pure speculation. I could be working on it now.

From seed BBs are just that. You start from seed. It could be animal feed seed or plant fiber seed. Raising animals onsite from feed grown onsite. Growing cotton or other plant fiber is also acceptable.   Thanks for asking.

Ok, I think I understand that means I can use wool or fur as long as I grow the feed plants myself? But growing the fiber for linnens would also be acceptable.

My next series of questions are related to my own situation. I do not currently own any fiber animals. Nor do I have a setup to grow large amounts of fiber plants. I might grow a patch next year. But not one big enough for creating the listed garments. I've seen others make a belt or towel-sized swatch from garden-bed growing spaces. I think that, for a shirt or pants/skirt, I would have to grow a very large area, and I don't have the space on my acre.

Does the grown flax/cotton/hemp have to be grown on my own land?
Do I have to raise the fiber animals myself? Feeding them on my own from-seed pastures? My current wool source is a neighbor who raises her own alfalfa and feeds it to her sheep/goats. Is this acceptable? How much of the process do I need to have my hands in? It would be very difficult for a skipper to be independent in every step. Are we going for perfect independence? Or inter-dependence in our communities?

Clarification: I am not asking to be a butthead. I am trying to understand if the wood or iron badge is something for which I can realistically reach.

Hello Rebekah!

I am working on these too!

We have to meet the requirements.   It does not have to be on your own property and you don't need to"own" the animals.   It just has to be done by your hand and with the needed photos or video.


I think anyone who has the interest can achieve this badge.   All of the badges are intended to be achievable to nearly anyone who wants to spend the time and learn the skills.

Rebekah Harmon wrote:My next series of questions are related to my own situation. I do not currently own any fiber animals. Nor do I have a setup to grow large amounts of fiber plants. I might grow a patch next year. But not one big enough for creating the listed garments. I've seen others make a belt or towel-sized swatch from garden-bed growing spaces. I think that, for a shirt or pants/skirt, I would have to grow a very large area, and I don't have the space on my acre.

One great thing about fibre plants, is that it's easy to save them up over time. I've been doing garden-bed-sized plantings of flax, and you could probably get enough fibre for a shirt from 40 square metres -- divided over however many seasons you need to. It's much less space than a grazing animal needs! Or, you could find some space in other peoples' gardens, a community garden, or a leased plot. Because it's such a fuss-free plant, once they've germinated and got to a hand's height or so, they're basically good to go, so not an imposition on your friends/family unlike other, fussier crops. There are a few of us in NZ growing a crop in friends' and family's gardens, and in this climate, it doesn't even require irrigation, so it's possible to do all the work yourself, even though you rarely visit the plot. Your climate is different, so your mileage may vary, though.

Growing it isn't the hard part, though! Extracting the fibre takes quite a lot of work compared to wool. That's the tradeoff -- space vs time.

Best of luck, Rebekah! Been very neat seeing you plough through the PEP programme!

Thank you, M! 😁 I did plant a small, 1-square yard of flax this year. I'm pleased to find that I can actually harvest fibers from it, despite it being a plain old grocery store variety. I'll do another batch, maybe bigger, next year, as you suggest.

So! I just wanted to post some "from seed textiles" I experienced this year. I've got both a flax patch I've been processing, as well as rabbit hides 😃. I planted the flaxseeds and alfalfa seeds with which I fed my bunnies.

I wasn't sure if my stems from growing flax would work for fiber, but I saved the longer ones, just in case. Then I ordered R Ransons' book, and I've been learning what steps to take.

First, I bundled the flax stalks and dried them. I rhetted them in a stock tank. I worried I went too long, but the fibers seem good so far! I guess I'll learn as I go, getting better season after season. 😄 it's such a pleasure to work on getting the fibers to emerge from the plant, like a sculptor on a stone, finding the art inside.

For these BBs I'm also curious about how the "from seed" works for animals.  For cotton or flax, it's easy to see that someone planted a patch, harvested and made fabric from it.  If you have access to sheep but they're on existing pasture, how do you do the "from seed" part?  Is it only if you're planting a full pasture from dirt and then grazing sheep on it?  Seems like a very strange circumstance.  I guess I don't know much about sheep but I thought they generally ate perennial plants.  Any ideas from the shepherds out there?

I think the intent is that you're doing the whole process starting from the generation of the source of the fabric.  In an animal system, seems like the seed would be the lamb (or embryo)...

My memory is foggy on this one, but I think it would combine with the animal care BB for that level.  So growing food for the animals and caring for the animals, etc.  

Silkworms would be easiest as one can plant mulberry trees, feed to worms, harvest fibre.  

Angora could look like planting greens in the garden, or doing something to improve the quality of the lawn you are cutting for their hay.  Harvest food, feed to rabbit, brush rabbit to get the fibre...

Something to grow or wildcraft the fodder.  

But also, I don't know the animal care BBs at that level, so perhaps there is some guidance there?

I can't remember if we talked about reproduction of the animals as being part of it.  It wouldn't hurt to know how to lamb but also, one doesn't really need to reproduce sheep to get wool.  one can buy two lambs and have wool for 10 to 15 years.  

But the sheep do need to eat to make wool.  

And having a permaculture system in place where we don't have to import fodder is a big part of it.

Hey team! The specific bbs on the seed list mention that the fiber or pelt of the animal could be used. I've been raising rabbits for awhile, using alfalfa and lawn clippings of clover and grass. I planted the alfalfa and clover myself a few years back. It's tiny, but I "bale" it into milk crates and store it like that over the winter, feeding it back to them. The "grow out kits" or the rabbits I harvest from my system, get moved around my lawn in a rabbit tractor. I also supplement oat fodder that I sprout and sunflower seeds which I soak in the winter. Definitely "from seed".

I've got several hides saved up from my rabbit system, and I believe this would count if I tanned them and made a shirt or vest from them. Or a jacket?

I hereby rescind my silly comment about baby animals being seeds :)

My struggles come in with how you show you're growing an animal from seed if the place they're grazing already has stuff growing in it that they could eat.  Perhaps if you're starting with a poor pasture and you plant a bunch of stuff and show that the pasture is now worthy of sheep?  

Rebekah, I think your rabbits would count as long as you can show "the seeds you are planting" for the alfalfa/clover portion of their diet.  Old work is allowed for BBs IF the pictures/video exist...

As an animal caregiver, pasture can always be improved. Overseeded with more polyculture.   Land shaping to improve or slow water movement...

I've been wanting to try those worm hotels that paul talks about in the better world book.  

And PEP is in a climate where winter happens.  Hay is a thing.  But also, most livestock thrive on https://permies.com/t/46428/Mangelwurzels which is easily grown from seed.



What are the expectations for the animal bb at that level?  This was mentioned a lot when we talked about what seed would mean in this context.  That if someone went with larger livestock,  it would meld with those bb.

Mike Haasl wrote:

Rebekah, I think your rabbits would count as long as you can show "the seeds you are planting" for the alfalfa/clover portion of their diet.  Old work is allowed for BBs IF the pictures/video exist...

I might have the pictures, actually! Because I was curious if I could use the spiral, weird alfalfa seeds pods for sprouting seeds in the kitchen. I'll look. If not, if might have to be a new patch of alfalfa I use for this year's baby rabbit seeds that mature into a rabbit pelt...

r ranson wrote:What are the expectations for the animal bb at that level?  This was mentioned a lot when we talked about what seed would mean in this context.  That if someone went with larger livestock,  it would meld with those bb.

At Wood level there are BBs for harvesting leather and fiber from animals.  No mention of how they were raised.  I'd expect harvesting fiber or leather for that BB could be used for the Textiles BBs (ie twofer).

There's also BBs for caring for critters with the following requirements:

- Care for 6 different species of animal for 6 months (counts 40 points towards Wood Badge)
    - Provide clearly better conditions than any conventional farm
    - Primarily skiddable shelters
    - No manure handling
    - Less than 2% off property inputs  

At Iron it says stuff like:

- Primarily skiddable shelters
 - No manure handling
 - All of the animal systems must be less than 2% off-site input
 - Hayless (or dramatic hay reduction system) is required
 - Minimal bare dirt under hoof/foot
 - Out in green, lush pasture most of the year
 - Plenty of shady spots
 - Sufficient herd/flock size to satisfy animal’s natural needs
 - Lack of flies, ticks, etc
 - Dry, wind protected shelters
 - Cattle butchering offal goes to chickens, pigs, fish, etc., Chicken goes to the pigs, dogs, fish, etc
 - Little to no predator pressure
 - Parasite and disease checks for all species
 - Their last day and last 15 minutes are calm and relaxing.  Slaughtered on site.

Here are my bunnies getting fed my saved tiny bales of alfalfa!

I also brushed out the flax a little more completely. It's made the piles significantly smaller 🥺

More adventures in flax! I'm used to spinning merino wool and was SO curious to see how this would be different. I put my "line" flax into a rolled hankie for a distaff. It worked OK, but I couldn't pull hard enough. I kept having to stop. I  would need to secure it somehow. Maybe with a heavy book. 🤔

The medium ish and shortish fibers I spun with no distaff. Just bundles and two hands.
I had to go very slow. Wetting abundantly. I'm surprised at how frayed or shaggy the yarn still looks. It's my first time dealing with flax, so maybe there's a big learning curve. Or maybe my tiny stookes or my long pond retting or my homeade tools, or the non-fiber specific flax strain worked together to make less than ideal, not-very-sleek fibers.

Anyways, some metrics to write down: this year, I grew golden flax, in a 4x4 foot patch. I spun 224 feet of singles, turning into 112 feet of two-ply. I plied it, not because I disparahe the strength of normal singles, but because of my newbie skills, with thicker and thinner sections, I wanted a more even finished yarn. It's chunky. Definitely not as thin as thread. Most of it is embroidery thread size. Some parts are more like sport weight yarn. I think it could still fit through an awl, so I may wax it and use it for the fur vest/shirt project. Wouldn't that be cool!?

I'm curious to see which factors affect the quality of the finished yarn on next year's flax patch!

How much yarn would I need in order to weave-say-4 yards of fabric for a dress? Or a couple shirts and shorts? The weft calculator online says about 92,000 yards 😵
Since I made about 6 yards of singles this year, assuming nothing in my technique or growing conditions improved, I would need to grow 15,000 times what I grew this year. That would be 240,000 square feet for a flax patch. That's 5 acres!! For ONE outfit!

Holy smokes! I better hope my technique improves 100 fold! Because I doubt I can get away with more than 200 square feet. Even a quarter acre feels impossible.

The thinner the yarn, the less fiber needed.

Some spinning gatherings have a compilation of how many yards one can get from 10g of fibre that will hold together to wind onto a niddynoddy without snapping.   It's great practice.

Hint, wind the niddynoddy some distance from the wheel to redistribute the twist.

r ranson wrote:The thinner the yarn, the less fiber needed.

Some spinning gatherings have a compilation of how many yards one can get from 10g of fibre that will hold together

Oh? Now I am very curious. How many feet/yards/meters do such gatherings get from 10oz.? Maybe I can come up with one shirt or one pair of shorts from 200 sq. Ft. Of flax garden space.

Here is my finished, tiny skein of homegrown linen yarn! It had more of a golden color after I finished it with lots of hot water baths. That made it softer! Then I put it through a dye process. I used black eyed Susan flowers for that. I think it is back to the pre finished color! Nothing exciting this time.

But! I played with onion skin dye too! Here I dyed cream colored merino wool yarn to yellow!!

Next I'd like to try pink from avocado, bright yellow from pomegranate skins, and orange with a grey mohair fiber I spun. Stay tuned!

I used a 15% alum mordant for the yellow yarn. That was about half a TBSP for this little skein. The onion skins were about 2 to 1 ratio for weight of onion to yarn. Hopefully, it doesn't fade quickly.

A ridiculous question!!

If you were to make underwear from animal fur, would you face the animal fur to your skin? Or the opposite, with the fur facing out?

;D

One more fun onion skin adventure! I'm dying mohair I spun last year. It's grey, so I was curious if it would turn out much darker. It's a bit darker, golden like.  But not orange like I though it might be.

Rebekah Harmon wrote:If you were to make underwear from animal fur, would you face the animal fur to your skin? Or the opposite, with the fur facing out?

Not ridiculous at all. I think it would depend on the animal fur, but fur inside could be cosy, fur outside more for a statement.

Raquel went for the fur inside look!

Rebekah Harmon wrote:I'm curious to see which factors affect the quality of the finished yarn on next year's flax patch!

How much yarn would I need in order to weave-say-4 yards of fabric for a dress? Or a couple shirts and shorts? The weft calculator online says about 92,000 yards 😵
Since I made about 6 yards of singles this year, assuming nothing in my technique or growing conditions improved, I would need to grow 15,000 times what I grew this year. That would be 240,000 square feet for a flax patch. That's 5 acres!! For ONE outfit!

Holy smokes! I better hope my technique improves 100 fold! Because I doubt I can get away with more than 200 square feet. Even a quarter acre feels impossible.

I know, right? It's so sad when I found out how much area you need to make such a tiny amount of fabric. I started spiraling so much that I created this account to write a post about it.

As for the fur underwear question, hmm, it sounds a little uncomfortable for me. However, the outer fur is probably better because the leather on the inside is waterproof, so they could make good adult diapers or period covers.

Good job, Rebeka! :)