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Sepp Holzer's perennial grain  RSS feed

 
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In this pic, the grain on the right is the stuff that received pee last january.

sepp-holzer-grain-2.jpg
[Thumbnail for sepp-holzer-grain-2.jpg]
 
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Looks like the urine did a nice job or replacing the nitrogen that the sawdust mulch sucked from the soil.
 
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I figured as much .. just wanted to be sure as I have on occassion seen the opposite response. Grasses that appear stunted and burned by direct urine.
 
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Update on Holzer grain at Wheaton Labs:

First picture is of the grain planted last year. It is already taller than me.

The second picture is some of the grain i planted a little more than a week ago. I swear i was just there three days before this picture and didn't see any signs of growth. Now it is 5 inches tall!
IMG_0913.JPG
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regrowth of last years planting
IMG_0912.JPG
[Thumbnail for IMG_0912.JPG]
young sprouts
 
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paul wheaton wrote:In this pic, the grain on the right is the stuff that received pee last january.



Out of curiosity... How many doses?
 
paul wheaton
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Two.
 
paul wheaton
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And it's gone.

A critter took all the heads. All of them.

Fortunately, about five days ago I spotted a bunch of the heads on the ground, so I gathered them up and brought them inside. Unfortunately, these heads have very few grains. So we still have a few seeds.

Fred went out yesterday, saw that the heads were all gone and rooted around on the ground and recovered a few seeds.

 
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Sounds like the work of a mouse or chipmunk? You might have everyone be extra vigilant for signs of where they stashed the seeds. Might be able to recover them.
 
Michael Cox
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Are the plants themselves still standing? If you cut the grass down now to the clump might you get another grain crop from them next year?
 
Fred Tyler
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The plants are still standing. Only the heads were removed. The stalks are dry and yellowed all the way to the ground. Should they still be cut down?
 
paul wheaton
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Fred Tyler wrote:The plants are still standing. Only the heads were removed. The stalks are dry and yellowed all the way to the ground. Should they still be cut down?



I think we should leave them. And we should assume that they will not grow back.

Maybe this fall we should create a whole new cage. I think we can also plant some, this fall, within the fenced area behind the fisher-price house. Maybe a few grains for every fenced area here.



 
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Why don't you think that they will come back up? I thought they were a perennial grain. Are you just not wanting to get your hopes up or is there another reason?
 
paul wheaton
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Zach was saying that the plants are pernnial if you keep it cut before it seeds. But once it sets seed, it dies.
 
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interesting, are all of the perennial grains like that? Because that seems like it would take away from the beauty of being a perennial grain.
 
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After some intensive searching I recently have obtained a box of this exclusive grain from a source in Germany who got it from a farmer who has been producing it for about 8-10 years with original seeds from Sepp. They call it Secale multicaule or Waldstaudenkorn.

This is what I found out:

Sepp's mysterious rye is the species 'Secale multicaule Kühn et al. 1974'. Taxonomically this is not correct and derives from Secale cereale var. multicaule Metzg. ex Alef., Landw. Fl.: 338 (1866).
This is nowadays not an accepted name. It is simply called Secale cereale but that's also stupid in my opinion because that's the name for all ordinairy rye species. So Joseph Holzer was right when he said "it´s a variety of Secale cereale"
(source: http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/namedetail.do;jsessionid=64AB69A9C7189F65C36B948D223B4489?name_id=471243)
The common use though is Secale cereale var. multicaule

In German it's mostly called Waldstaudenkorn (Wald = forest, Staude = perennial herb, Korn = cereal) or Johannisroggen (St. John's Rye, because it is sown around St. John's Day).
(Ones I knew the name I could even find it on the German Wikipedia. à https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldstaudenroggen)
Other names: Urroggen, Sibirisches Urgetreide, Sibirischer Roggen, Sibirisches Urkorn or Waldstaudenroggen.

Sepp Holzer calls this ancient grain (=Urkorn) 'The Grandmother of all rye' (Großmutter de Roggens). It has been used in Slash-and-burn farming probably for thousands of years and it was sown without ploughing.
Also hunters used it in a mix for small mountain vegetable plots in the woods.

Years ago a german farmer obtained seeds from Holzer and started cultivating it as a pioneer project and he is now growing it locally in 'small' amounts (2,5 acres).
There are several farmers in Germany growing it these days so it is on the march. It is not certified for seed selling, allthough it is allright selling it for making bread as far as I understand. It is hard to get it due to the small production.

Some more background information and growing instructions from the farmer:
Source: Pflanzebau & Technik - http://www.permakulturberatung.de/PDF/Bioland%20Zeitung%2008Hofer.pdf

He prefers to sow in the spring and than mows it twice the first year (or let sheep graze on it). Then the plants get strong and the next year he harvests in autumn. This increases the harvest with 30%.
Other farmers mow it as much as three times before letting it come to full growth. After harvesting the plants die.

Sepp's own instructions can be found in The rebel farmer (page 270 of "Der Agrar-Rebell', I only have the german version)

Well, that's all I found out so far…

My personal rye stock:


Other sources:
http://www.vupt.cz/en/english/breeding-program/rye-secale-cereale-alef/
http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/DispPN.pl?413589
http://sun.ars-grin.gov:8080/npgs_public/prodweb.pdf0?in_vol=29&in_suffix=&in_page=026
http://www.vurv.cz/altercrop
http://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search.do?recordID=CZ2003000457
My-abundant-ancient-rye-stock.jpg
[Thumbnail for My-abundant-ancient-rye-stock.jpg]
 
Zach Weiss
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Awesome!! Thank you Maurice!!
 
Michael Cox
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Interesting stuff.

I know Paul lost his crop after it had set seed. Perhaps a way to mitigate against this in future might be to prevent some plants from seeding by regular mowing. You might even be able to divide some plants to propagate, and then allow setting seed when conditions are right and you are certain you can protect the yield.
 
paul wheaton
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Apple for you Maurice! That is some very good info.

Currently, we have a couple hundred seeds so we are making another go at it. I think Kai planted a bunch a few weeks ago in "the cage". I like the idea that we try to plant a bunch more in a lot of different places.

There was something growing up at the tipi that looked like holzer grain. Fred saved that seed and we have a bit more of that. Maybe we should be planting that everywhere, willy nilly.



 
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Hi, does anyone have 200-300 seeds of Sepp's perennial grain for sale/trade? Or Mr. Wheaton if you happen to get a bumper crop sometime and have a few to share/trade, would appreciate it much. Thank you.
 
Miles Flansburg
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Miles Flansburg wrote:Sounds like the work of a mouse or chipmunk? You might have everyone be extra vigilant for signs of where they stashed the seeds. Might be able to recover them.[/quote[
i'm not sure about mice, but around here squirrels and chipmunks will bury acorns and maple nut/seedpods under bushes and forget/lose them, then come spring and summer i get to pull and cut all the baby oaks and maples out at work(groundskeeping with schools). anyways, if you don't find them, maybe you'll be lucky and suddenly have a patch growing somewhere come spring or fall!

 
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Maurice van der Molen wrote:
This is what I found out:

Sepp's mysterious rye is the species 'Secale multicaule Kühn et al. 1974'. Taxonomically this is not correct and derives from Secale cereale var. multicaule Metzg. ex Alef., Landw. Fl.: 338 (1866).
This is nowadays not an accepted name. It is simply called Secale cereale but that's also stupid in my opinion because that's the name for all ordinairy rye species. So Joseph Holzer was right when he said "it´s a variety of Secale cereale"
(source: http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/namedetail.do;jsessionid=64AB69A9C7189F65C36B948D223B4489?name_id=471243)
The common use though is Secale cereale var. multicaule



In sepp holzer's Permaculture (the dutch translation I'm currently reading) there is a distinctive difference between Secale Multicaule and the Siberian Rye he obtained long ago. Both appear as different species in the planting lists.

In Belgium Secale Multicaule seed is commercially available at a local dealer here, selling it in 10kg (+/-22pound) bags, but still only one that I know of. Here it carries a name that literally translates "Bohemian Bushy Rye", and the description further adds: "Grain that is suited for marginal lands/first crop, possible to be grown on mountainous landscapes up to 1200m high. Slow growth with little to no seed production in the first year, produces copious amounts of biomass in following year(s). Very resistant to grazing, damage/production loss through grazing is neglectable"
Maybe I should go back to their shop and inquire where it exactly comes from...

 
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TO: Paul Wheaton, et alia
FROM: Eric Koperek = erickoperek@gmail.com
SUBJECT: How to Grow Grain Without Plowing
DATE: PM 4:40 Thursday 5 May 2016
TEXT:

(1) In the Fall (after the Hessian Fly Date for your area) broadcast winter wheat and Dutch White Clover = Trifolium repens into standing weeds. (You can use a no-till planter if convenient).

(2) Use maximum seeding rates if broadcasting unprotected = naked seed. Pelleted seed has a greater survival rate.

(3) Mow weeds as close to the soil surface as practical, ideally with a sickle-bar mower. You want to avoid chopping up the weeds.

(4) Irrigate immediately or wait for rain.

(5) Harvest crop next summer as usual. Run grain through a seed cleaner to remove any weed seeds.

(6) This technique works for ANY winter cereal = wheat, oats, rye, or barley. In warm climates this also works for upland rice, millet, milo, and grain sorghum.

(7) Sow-And-Go farming is not a panacea for all the world's agricultural problems but it will produce an acceptable crop in years with good rainfall (or if you irrigate). In years with poor rainfall you won't make a crop.

( Grain sown into standing weeds typically yields 60% to 70% of conventionally planted cereals PROVIDED there is sufficient water from rain or irrigation. Expect 40% yield loss due to weed competition and other factors.

(9) In Butler County Pennsylvania winter wheat sown with Dutch White Clover into standing weeds averages about 24 bushels = 1,440 pounds per acre when irrigated with 1 inch of water weekly. My conventional plow-and-spray neighbors get about 40 bushels per acre.

(10) The trick to sowing crops among the weeds is to plant grains when they would normally drop their seeds = usually in the dry or dormant season when weed growth is slow or absent.

(11) Sow-And-Go grain farming works best with fall planted cereals = winter grains. Spring planted grains are more problematic = less successful.

(12) No-till grain farming dates back to the Middle Ages. This is NOT new technology.

(13) Another way to do this: Plant a field of Dutch White Clover. Let clover grow a full year. The following spring fence clover and turn in hogs. Do not put rings in hog's snouts or they will not be able to root. Hogs like Dutch clover because it is sweet. Hogs will dig up soil like a rototiller. Remove hogs then seed with spring wheat or other spring grain. Drive sheep or cattle over field to stomp in seed. When grain heads out, broadcast turnips over standing wheat. 2 or 3 weeks before turnip harvest broadcast Dutch White Clover over standing turnips. Let clover sit another year then repeat rotation cycle. Expect 40 bushel average yields with good rainfall in climates like northern New York. Yields can increase to 80 bushels with irrigation in European climates like France where wheat is often grown under widely spaced (80 feet apart) Carpathian Walnut = English Walnut trees. This is a good example of agroforestry.

(14) A third way to do this: Erect temporary fencing. Broadcast wheat into standing weeds. You can also broadcast clover if you wish or top seed clover later when wheat is 6 inches high. Put cattle, goats, or sheep (NOT HOGS) into enclosed field. Animals must be "well crowded" = you need a high concentration of animals = just enough room for each animal to turn around. For cattle this is about 8 x 8 feet = 64 square feet = 670 cows per acre = 670 Animal Units per acre where 1 animal unit = 1 AU = 1,000 pounds of live weight regardless of species. Feed animals in pen until land is "well dunged and trodden" = 1/2 pound to 1 pound manure per square foot = 10 to 20 tons of manure per acre = rotate cattle to new pen after 1 or 2 days (usually) or longer as convenient. Cattle stomp seed into ground. Dung and urine fertilize soil. Earthworms and dung beetles till earth. No tractors, diesel fuel, or synthetic fertilizers needed. Spring wheat yields about 40 bushels per acre when "stomp seeded". Higher yields are possible with irrigation. If desired, you can top seed any low growing clover over spring wheat once it reaches 6 inches high. This ancient technology is called "Cattle Penning" and dates back to Roman times.

(15) Most agricultural technologies have their "roots" in the Middle Ages or earlier. Back then it was "subsistence agriculture". Today we call it "modern agronomy" or "biological agriculture" = the New Green Revolution = using nature to do what is commonly done with tractors and synthetic chemicals.

ERIC KOPEREK = erickoperek@gmail.com

end comment.
 
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I'm really curious how this is going. Is any of the original planting of rye still kicking, and did the several hundred rescued seeds amount to anything?
 
Jason Padvorac
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Looks like a kind of biennial rye (probably very similar to Sepp's) is grown in Norway: http://www.skogoglandskap.no/Artsbeskrivelser/svedjerug/default_view


[The article is in Norwegian, google translate made it intelligible enough for me to muddle through.]

It is called Svedjerug, and was rediscovered as 10 seeds in a barn, of which 7 germinated. It grows up to 2.5 meters tall, and has had as many as 50 heads on one plant.
 
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Im all for keeping old seed lines going but im not understanding the major benefit of using sepps particular seed.  From what ive read so far, its not actually perennial since it dies after harvested and you have to wait 2 years to get a good crop?  Seems like one would be better off just planting a regular rye or wheat seed that is already available and harvest the same year its planted or do a winter planting and harvest the following year.  
 
Maurice van der Molen
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Cody Gillespie wrote:Im all for keeping old seed lines going but im not understanding the major benefit of using sepps particular seed. .....



Hi Cody.
There are some advantages:
This grain is specially suited for infertile difficult soils and rough climates and not necessary for high yields. It's also a nutricious dense rye, so allegedly more healthy.
Another pro: it has a root system which can go very deep into the subsoil, up to 3,4 yards, creating carbon pathways into your soil and bringing up nutriënts from deeper layers. So even if you don't eat any of it, that makes it worthwhile.
It's hight, up to 8 feet, makes it suitable for making sheafs (so your crop can have a slight natural fermentation, which is better and healthier for the digestion) and it also leaves you a valuable long fibre for all sorts of crafts.
It also looks nice and impressive in your fields...
 
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Paul, Fred, Maurice,

Where could I get hold of the Multicaule Perennial Rye?

I actually live in Austria but I couldn´t get hold of it, when I visited Sepp Hozler farm.
But as I live in this region, perhaps its easier.

Or do you know any website that sells it?

Once I got Tim Peters rye but then use most seeds and plants died after winter, and my remaining seeds got non-viable.

Anyone has both Tim Peters and Multicaule Rye on offer?
 
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Cody Gillespie wrote:Seems like one would be better off just planting a regular rye or wheat seed that is already available and harvest the same year its planted or do a winter planting and harvest the following year.  



This is what I do. Just plain old cereal rye of unknown specific variety. I planted a couple acres as a cover crop and for biomass (I cut by scythe and use the straw for mulch and composting) and left about a 1/4 acre portion to mature. In fall I walk through and manually harvest 50-75% and in the process drop seeds on the ground which get tamped in a bit by my walking around and by the rains and frost heave we get in winter. The birds here love me, but enough comes up that I get another crop. Rinse and repeat, then knock it down and do it somewhere else. I'm unconcerned with the yield since that's just a bonus, but it's more than enough for my needs and to replant down the road.
 
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I just received some seeds descended from sepp holzer's variety, and am making them available here: https://permies.com/t/60810/Seeds-Sepp-Holzer-rye

Paulo, I have a few seeds from a line of perennial Tim Peters rye, but not enough to share yet. If you pm me your email address I'll notify you if (hopefully when) I have enough to share next year.
 
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Paulo Bessa wrote:Paul, Fred, Maurice,

Where could I get hold of the Multicaule Perennial Rye?
---



Hi Paulo. I've just read your posts. I still have some available from my original box (read https://permies.com/t/120/1316/Sepp-Holzer-perennial-grain#405677, besides the kilogram I save for my own garden. You are in Austria so that shouldn't be to difficult.
It's a pity that Sepp is so mysterious about it. Have you tried to contact his son Joseph? Joseph at Krameterhof. Maybe he sells it... that's maybe the easiest way.
 
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Pail, new on Permies. How do I get my hands on some Sepp Holzer Einkorn? In process of buying a small farm up in NW North Carolina, around 2600 feet, and very anxious to become self sufficient in grains as soon as possible.
 
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Maurice van der Molen wrote:

Paulo Bessa wrote:Paul, Fred, Maurice,

Where could I get hold of the Multicaule Perennial Rye?
---



Hi Paulo. I've just read your posts. I still have some available from my original box (read https://permies.com/t/120/1316/Sepp-Holzer-perennial-grain#405677, besides the kilogram I save for my own garden. You are in Austria so that shouldn't be to difficult.
It's a pity that Sepp is so mysterious about it. Have you tried to contact his son Joseph? Joseph at Krameterhof. Maybe he sells it... that's maybe the easiest way.



I have a variety of long straw wheat called Maris Wigeon (primarily used for thatching in the U.K) if you want to swap some. They grow it at a local organic farm very close to where I live and use it for flour. If we can swap hopefully I can convince them to start this rye too.
 
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This is some "probably sepp holzer grain" from the hugelkultur berms.  Deep soil getting richer every year.   These grew pretty tall and put out huge seed heads.

2018-hugelberm-sepp-holzer-grain.jpg
[Thumbnail for 2018-hugelberm-sepp-holzer-grain.jpg]
 
paul wheaton
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This is definitely sepp holzer grain.  This was grown in "The gulag" that is basically sawdust on rock.  Extremely tough conditions.  If there is the tiniest spec of nitrogen there, the sawdust would suck it up.  

2018-gulag-sepp-holzer-grain.jpg
[Thumbnail for 2018-gulag-sepp-holzer-grain.jpg]
 
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paul wheaton wrote:This is definitely sepp holzer grain.  This was grown in "The gulag" that is basically sawdust on rock.  Extremely tough conditions.  If there is the tiniest spec of nitrogen there, the sawdust would suck it up.  



Pretty cool! Is this an ancient wheat or a landrace he has created.   Hopefully, you get enough of this to grind flour for a pizza.  
 
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