in search of natural clothing - especially winter gear

I got halfway through reading everyone's bits here and had to stop and ask something.
I really love the idea of buying oversized wool pants at the thrift store and felting them to make for myself something warm and wonderful. I also love the layering idea first because I understand that that helps with warmth but also because I must be allergic to wool fibers because I cant stand to have it on my skin for any length of time its so so itchy.
So here is what I am wondering.
Should I have underneath those felted wool pants a silk pant (or some other thin comfy fiber) and should it be tight or loose?
I ask because for some reason long johns always seems that the crotch ends up half way down my leg and its really disconcerting to be walking around that way.  I suppose its because of the stretch relaxing, or maybe I just don't have enough hip to hold them up! Loose pants seem to be the better answer to me, with a drawstring or elastic waist. I also wondered if the loose pants would make little folds all over inside the wool pant causing warm air pockets which a tight form fitting long john wouldn't do? Perhaps elastic or drawstring at the ankle also to keep drafts out?
Any thoughts?

Should I have underneath those felted wool pants a silk pant (or some other thin comfy fiber) and should it be tight or loose?

Loose is better, definitely.  I think the reason long johns are tight is more to do with looking fit, stylish and hot in that winter outfit than for warmth.  If the long johns crotch is down too low you definitely need a bigger size!  I've found that an old pair of sweat pants work really well, if my pants are big enough and I'm not going to get wet.

As a funny aside, my brother borrowed my wetsuit (one piece, full lenth bottom and tank top top) to go skiing one day  because it was -20 F (about -30 C) and windy.  He wore the wetsuit against his skin and came back and reported the wet suit was wonderful and he was the warmest guy on the mountain.... until he had to pee.  There was no opening in the front to pee.  In order to pee he had to disrobe completely down to around his knees, on top of the mountain, in the wind, exposing his tender,  moist skin.  He said at that point he nearly froze to death and was pretty sure he was peeing icicles.  He got so cold that he said he never really warmed up again.  The lesson is, the little things matter, like how are you going to perform when nature calls.

Forgive me if I missed a previous mention of it - but it is worth noting that a lot if wool winter gear (icebreakers, smartwool, probably others) are made with superwash wool. Superwash is a treatment that makes the wool not felt when you machine wash it, anf makes it super soft. It consists of treating the wool with chlorine gas (some sites say acid) and/or coating it in plastic resin.
So, if you are looking to avoid petroleum, even undyed superwash yarn won’t fit the bill.

I learned a lot about superwash this summer.  I didn't think I would ever change my mind about it, but learning how it's actually produced and how much benefit it has on the world of textiles, made a huge difference.

Superwash has the big advantage of making machine washable wool - so people who would normally buy petroleum and synthetic based clothing, now buy wool instead.  It's saved the woollen industry.  Superwash wool is Worlds better than petroleum but not as good as untreated wool.

Imagine a scale.  Top is more good for the environment, the bottom is less good.  If industrial cotton is about half an inch higher than synthetic clothing, and organic cotton about four inches higher than that.  Superwash wool is about 180 miles better than synthetic clothing.  Untreated wool is about an inch better than superwash wool.  Superwash wool gets an extra 12 miles because it is a gateway fibre for people who would otherwise buy synthetic clothing.  

There are lots of different ways to produce Superwash.  The 'glue' used to produce superwash in the US, according to my instructor - one of the top experts in the American Wool Industry - is the same glue used to seal tea bags.  It takes less of this glue to make a sweater than it does to brew a cuppa tea.  Like tea bags are better than soft drinks, but not as good as loose tea, they are a stepping stone to a healthier life.


I avoid superwash wool because untreated wool has more of the qualities that make wool wonderful.  However, I was delighted to hear my visiting family member say this Holiday season, about the new wool shirts he's buying.  A solid level zero point five on the Eco-scale, superwash wool introduced him to a whole new world of caring about the environmental impact of his clothes.  He's even talking about buying an organic cotton shirt and maybe even something made of linen for work.  Speaking about work, he works in the artic part of the year (during the winter) and loves his superwash wool shirt so much that he's going to insist that everyone is issued with this instead of the synthetic stuff the "southerners" (aka, below the artic circle) bring.  That's nearly a thousand people switching from synthetic to wool.

All because of one superewash shirt.  

Ann Torrence wrote:
... For mittens, I would make myself a pair with a thrummed lining, which is a Scandinavian technique for incorporating unspun wool into the underside of a garment. I've never heard of anyone thrumming a sweater, but I see no reason why it could not be done. Smaller objects like hats and mittens are more typical. Might not be a good idea for socks, but could make some wicked slippers. I should try that. ...


I used that technique, but with different material. Instead of unspun wool I used strips cut from old bed sheets.

I've learned something new!  Woo Hoo!  What a great concept.  I'm excited to tell my wife and daughters about this.  They are the knitters in the family.

If I understand Paul’s rules correctly, I suspect that tea bags will not be used either.
I’m a bit surprised that the coating on an entire sweater is less than the glue on a single tea bag. R Ranson, do you have a reference for that? Or for the process as a whole? I have been curious about the process for awhile, but have had trouble fining more than vague descriptions.

I understand that industrial secrets are involved so I don't have a secondary reference.  Just my instructor who works with that mill and is highly regarded in the wool industry.  She showed us photos she took of the process, but the scope of the seminar was on handling wool from the time it come off the sheep until it gets to the mill or artisan.

Superwash isn't something I would use in my own life, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating, or so they say.  It has proven to be a gateway fibre for getting people away from synthetic.  Given that clothing takes up half of the agricultural carbon footprint (carbon farming solution), not including the damage transport and synthetic do to the world, I'm very happy that superwash exists.

A bit like recycling, really.  It's not as good for the world as other solutions, but it's a starting place to get people in the right mindset.

Haha-- buckskin overalls, Paul?

would like a duster type over cost, it can be oilcloth (cotton) or Leather & wax.
But I do not know any craft persons who can make this, no I am not near able for anything like that.

Since we are in the beginning of winter weather I'm curious.. Jocelyn, did you have any items prioritized on this list? Like you're going to need X item replaced soonest or would really love better X item?

Keeping this response strictly aligned to natural fabrics, I personally can only recommend two types.  My favorite natural winter fabrics are wool and silk.  Wool is obvious.  Silk might make some people scratch their heads and give me some funny looks.  

But silk is a great, GREAT base layer.  Clearly it is soft and smooth and therefore comfortable next to the skin.  It also is surprisingly warm while having absolutely no bulk so it is great for layering.  It sits close to the skin without being tight, thereby creating dead air, exactly what one wants from an insulator.

I try to avoid cotton.  Even though it is soft and fuzzy, it soaks up water (from the environment and your own body) and in doing so becomes more conducive of heat—exactly what you don’t want.

Eric

Hemp is a possibility as seen from this Etsy post.  Their post has outer raincoat like fabric but they state they can make both sides hemp.  It uses hemp fur and filler, I am sure that hemp thread could be found.  You just need a seamstress.

#222 & 224

Have we considered thrift and secondhand shops? I've been scouring them for 100% natural fibers and always go home with some sort of prize, be it a merino wool sweater, cashmere scarf, silk/wool cardigan, or wool poncho. It requires a bit of time, say a hour of looking at tags, but the thrill of the hunt cannot matched.

Early colonists wore “linsey-woolsey”.
Linsey-woolsey is a coarse twill or plain-woven fabric woven with a linen warp and a woollen weft. Similar fabrics woven with a cotton warp and woollen weft in Colonial America were also called linsey-woolsey or wincey. These people make this 18th century fabric for re-enactors.
https://www.applecartcreations.com/pages/linsey-woolsey

Fabrizia Annunziata wrote:

soft wools rather than itchy

I am not an expert on woolen fibers but I have a sense that a lot depends on the quality of the wool and how it is processed.  

Cashmere is the warmest I believe and if the manufacturing is high quality most people do not find it itchy.

Ditch the Itch as a hipster might opine. This is a case for layers.

* Silk undergarmets tops and bottoms.
* Barrier layer to protect the undergarmets. In the US, denim is the essential choice. Any tough barrier would suffice.
* Thin wicking layer. Gortex is superior but alas it is not a natural fiber. Thin wool sweater is the natural alternative. Just be sure that there is a way for moisture to escape.
* Inner shell. Down jacket. Critical that it not become moist or it totally loses its heat retention properties.
* Outer shell. A material that sheds water which can eliminate most natural fibers.

US Army Survival Training guide, Pg 176 -- https://thesurvivalmom.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/FM_21-76-US-army-survival-manual.pdf

Try shopping at the Vermont Country Store for natural and wool underwear.  They have some traditional styles.
Tounsend and Sons has everything you need.  
Both have online catalogs of high quality stuff.

In the mostly wet, not so very cold, winters in the Netherlands layering is the best solution too. My skin isn't sensible, I can wear wool underwear (there's a Danish brand, Dilling, which I can order online). I am busy knitting my own too, from unraveled fine merino second-hand sweaters, but that takes a lot of time.
Most of my clothes are second hand, in thrift stores I look for anything natural, including cotton, as long as it's of the right quality. I always look for wool, but it's a rare find.
My outer layer NEEDS to be really watertight, so it's 'plastic' ...

I am really happy about my down coat on really cold days, although on normal winter days I can go with my woolen coat.

If I had to buy something new and I had the cash (I would be willing to spend the cash) I would order from this young German company who uses wool fleece as insulation in modern winterwear:
https://nordwolle.com/
Their garments are very stylish:
https://nordwolle.shop/damen/3dx/perchta-steppmantel
(ETA that the garments are only made from certified cotton and local sheep fleece, no polyfibers)

Apart from that, I layer. Never without a long pantyhose (or however you call it), knitted socks, a woolen sweater - in the house. More to go outside, of course!

there is a waterproofing method I've heard of that uses oils, and terps on cloth...I believe is what is called oil skin---like Crocodile Dundee's hat and coat...

It's heavy but it can work

Not sure where you are going in Montana, but as a born and raised Montana gal, you need to consider down.  When I was in elementary school I walked about 6 blocks to school.  School was never canceled due to subzero weather. Back then all we had was wool and I can tell you the wind blows right thru wool.  Even with thick cotton lining.   Look for canvas barn coats, and layer.  

Boots and shoes - look into Eskimo mukluks, actually if you google the Alaska natives there are on line patterns for fur mukluks and the traditional winter coats they make and wear.  I just saw patterns at a quilt shop in Alaska when searching for some specific fabric.

You might be able to buy directly from some of the Alaska natives, google search.

Buy the cloth and have Amish seamstress make you clothes, provide the patterns you want and the materials. They certainly have the skill. I bought heavy wool a bolt from a dry goods store in Lancaster and have used it for horse blankets, and a cloak for me . It is grey but you could dye wool the color you make out of organic dyes just don’t wring or dry it you will get felt. Unless you want felt. I bought an alpaca and Kama wool coat for my daughter in nature organic dyes of earth tones and to clean it I brushed it with a tiny dog brush the way the hair went . It was very durable and got passed along when she out grew it looking perfect. Course lama wool on the outside and soft alpaca on the inside. With toggle buttons , so cute and kept her warm.

I love my homemade clothes!  There is something really special about clothes made by hand.  

They last a long time.  I have sweaters made by my mother and my grandmother.  

I knitted lambswool long underwear this year!   They are the best and the nicest I have ever had.    

I like to knit in the round.   I use one long needle that is flexible in the middle so I am knitting a tube.  It is great for pants, sweaters, hats.  It is really pretty fast if you use bulky yarn on big needles.  



It is fun and way cheaper to outfit children in handmade woolens than buying fine wool things to keep them warm.


I like to have a super soft under layer of lambs wool, then heavier wool on top to shed the weather.

Here are a few of my favorites:

Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote:Down is a very nice and warm filler for quilts and jackets.
If I were to buy down to make my own, I would have to make double sure that it is ethically sourced...

I raise ducks and geese.  The down is so lovely.  I made a down comforter out of old pillowcases all stitched together and filled with duck down.  They are easy to pluck when the feathers are new.   So I time the harvest on their molt cycle.   When the new feathers are all out and beautiful, it is time.    

Here is an easy way to gather the feathers.  As soon as possible, after harvesting,  I put the ducks body head first in an old pillow case.   Just the feet sticking out.  Then I start to pluck .    I can't actually see what I am doing but it doesn't matter.   It can all be done by feel.  I pluck the posterior end first and let the feathers stay in the pillowcase as I gradually pull the plucked duck out.   When done I sew up the top of the pillow case and throw it in the wash.    Comes out perfect and clean.  If you have a dryer you can even fluff it up.  

Why the pillow case or cloth bag?   Because all the feathers that I want for bedding are so light that they fly away if they are not contained.  Also they are perfect and clean when they come off the animal.   So I like to keep them that way.    


Anytime I get a hole in a down coat I stuff it full of more feathers before mending it.   I think it makes my coats a little warmer!

Happy Winter Everyone!

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:  the clothing doesn't have to look native. As for me, simpler is better - no tassels (unless that's part of the buckskin construction?), beads or headdresses for this gal! I'm also thinking Paul isn't exactly a Tonto-wannabe. This is more about the purity of the clothing, not so much attempting to emulate indigenous or ethnic traditions, though often traditional cultures do have inherent wisdom in their ways.

Ancient comment I know, but just read the entire thread and didn't see it addressed anywhere. The fringe (tassles) is not a fashion addition to true buck skins- it is primarily there to wick away moisture from surrounding, integral leather and increase surface area to allow it to evaporate faster.

I made this skirt as farm clothes to do chores in.   I have been wearing it for over a year most days when I am out bucking hay and mending fences.   I am really hard on my clothing and store bought things just get torn and ruined.  This hand knitted skirt is nicer and softer now than when I first made it!    It is still pretty enough to go to town.

I made these leggings too.   They are so warm and nice I don't want to wear anything else.  

Time to make some more clothes!

Samantha Lewis wrote:I made this skirt as farm clothes to do chores in.   I have been wearing it for over a year most days when I am out bucking hay and mending fences.   I am really hard on my clothing and store bought things just get torn and ruined.  This hand knitted skirt is nicer and softer now than when I first made it!    It is still pretty enough to go to town.

I made these leggings too.   They are so warm and nice I don't want to wear anything else.  

Time to make some more clothes!

I would prioritize socks, but maybe you have that warm kind of snow where you are...

Yes!  I would love to make socks!   I think that would be such a fun gift too.    Hand knit socks are the best ever!

I am also thinking of very heavy slipper socks, maybe with some leather on the bottom.   Something I can wear around my zone one and two instead of shoes.  

Here is a new invention.  It is a hair tie that doubles as a hat with a hole for my ponytail.  

Samantha Lewis wrote:I made this skirt as farm clothes to do chores in.   I have been wearing it for over a year most days when I am out bucking hay and mending fences.   I am really hard on my clothing and store bought things just get torn and ruined.  This hand knitted skirt is nicer and softer now than when I first made it!    It is still pretty enough to go to town.
I made these leggings too.   They are so warm and nice I don't want to wear anything else.  
Time to make some more clothes!

And bare foot in zone 1!!! these clothes MUST be warm! I so wish I had your talent, Samantha. Alas, from very young, I developed an intense dislike for any kind of sewing or knitting. I never had any talent in this area either.
I love the quality and practicality of the clothes you wear. The best I can do is scrounge Goodwill and second hand stores. I rarely find what I want. They do have leather shoes though, which is great because I can't stand these ice cold fake leather shoes they sell in stores these days or the tennis. They are just as bad.
The last leather shop has long folded in our area. Sniff...

Samantha Lewis wrote:Yes!  I would love to make socks!   I think that would be such a fun gift too.    Hand knit socks are the best ever!

I am also thinking of very heavy slipper socks, maybe with some leather on the bottom.  ...

I see you know how to knit. You knitted that skirt and leggings. Then you can (learn to) knit socks too. I found the tutorials (youtube) of Roxanne Richardson on ways to knit socks very clear.    

Samantha Lewis wrote:Here is a new invention.  It is a hair tie that doubles as a hat with a hole for my ponytail.  

Your description calls for a second picture...

I am also thinking of very heavy slipper socks, maybe with some leather on the bottom.  ...
I see you know how to knit. You knitted that skirt and leggings. Then you can (learn to) knit socks too. I found the tutorials (youtube) of Roxanne Richardson on ways to knit socks very clear.    


Wow,  Thank you Inge Leonora-den Ouden!  Those look like great videos!    I am going to start some socks next.  You guys are inspiring me!

I'd like to see the hair thingy too.

I mostly wear my hair up in a bun or ponytail so most hat patterns don't suit me. I recently knitted one with alternating 4 rows of knit and purl stitches thus in theory it has 100% percent stretch vertically to accommodate my bun. There's a similar pattern just called honeycomb in ravelry. However I ran out of yarn before reaching the height I wanted so I just decreased and bind off to leave a hole on top for ponytail.  Now the hat looks even more like a honeycomb or yellow jacket nest!

Here are two hair tie hats in action!

The purple hat is the same one that is pictured in the above photo where it is being a hair tie.   The red one is the same hat shape.

It is so fast and simple to knit.  I cast on in the round and reduce only on the two sides.  This makes the hat just a touch longer over my ears.  

The purple one is silk and is noticeably warmer and softer than the red lambs wool.  

They are stretchy and strong enough to hold up my heavy ponytail and way more gentle on my hair than some store bought elastic.  .

As usual, the permaculture option has more functionality, is more luxuriant and nicer in every way.

To keep feet warm, there are the Valenki type boots made of felted wool. Looking at the history of them, they go back a long way -- 6000 years or so. The picture below is of a few soldiers of the Russian Red Army wearing them during WW II.

And here is a link giving more detail about the boots and their history:
http://foottalk.blogspot.com/2005/06/valenki-russian-boots-with-honour.html

I bought Mukluks from Steger in Minnesota. Excellent leather outers, on the expensive end but you get what you pay for. A friend who has made his own said he still bought a pair of Stegers because they are able to attach the rubber sole in a way that it stays on, his own separate too quickly. I have no idea what kind of rubber or glue is used in their process however.

They come with felted wool inserts similar to the Valenki boots pictured above. These are very warm. The owner started making these mukluks for her husband who was doing arctic exploration. For some reason she uses felt that is only 75% wool and 25% synthetic. Mine got soaked with water and when left about a foot away from a propane heater to dry, ended up melting the synthetic fibers in the heel of one liner. Since she didn't offer 100% wool, I looked online (no luck in stores either) and found some advertised as 100% wool (army surplus). They ended up being half the thickness, but actually feel at least as warm if not more so. This pairing has served remarkably well for the last 3 months.

The only down side is moisture. I bought the silicone waterproofing with them and they have not got my feet wet while wearing them. However, snow sticks to the sueded leather when it is up around freezing and eventually melts into it. They do not insulate as well this way and take hours if not days to dry. So now my quest is to find a Permie-worthy waterproof boot for the spring thaw.

It looks like Wellingtons would be a simple choice, but modern versions are heavy on synthetic rubber and other parts. I found Hunter ones that are 100% natural rubber on the outside, but then they list them as having a polyester lining. Anyone have leads on ones that might use more traditional materials throughout?

Hi all…Sheepspot.com gives info on the rare and endangered breeds of sheep which used to be mainstays for clothing and coarser fibers.

The Southdown breed produces a very doft “nice next to the skin) wool which resists feltng or breakage. I buy my Southdiwn “too” (ready to spin) blended with 35% bombyx silk and already dyed in attractive colours from Sheepspot and spin the sock yarn.

For years I bought commercially spun merino wool sock yarn (with the additional merino/nylon for years and years) but merino simply cannot stand up to the hard wear and tear and washings. Yet most who knit sicks don’t know that Southdown is so hardy and enduring and when blended with 25% silk, is the best option out there for natural fiber socks! I like spinning and knitting, but hate darning socks and I bet most others feel similarly. The downside of the Southdown/silk prepared top? It’s not exactly cheap. I hope to be able to keep some Southdown sheep in future as their fleece is so soft yet sturdy. (They are good for meat as well). They’re a U.K. breed by the way.

I've been making the switch, albeit slowly, to natural clothing. I'm so thankful to live in the desert SW now, because this would have been much more unpleasant and expensive in Oregon!  Seeing that there are real rubber boots in the link a couple posts above is inspiring, though.

Cost is a big issue for me. My husband and I have left a few moldy houses and had to get new clothes each time.  It sounds almost unreal that someone would need to do that, but it was the case.  And we have tried cleaning everything, THOROUGHLY. Once in awhile I can "save" something by soaking it long enough in sodium percarbonate (dry H2O2) or H2O2, but it's a tricky thing because many times the amount of soaking it requires to get to good again wrecks the cloth.

One thing I've been doing when looking for new clothing on conventional sites, like JcPenny and Target, is searching for "organic" in their search engine. I've been doing this for years now, and this year I was so surprised and pleased - JcPenny had three organic cotton bras!  Two are very well rated by customers, and reasonably priced, so I got one and it's my new favorite. Ambrielle.

So my thought from all that we might be able to encourage more conventional companies to carry more natural products.  These companies probably are using their search records to gauge consumer desires, and I would think that searches like this might influence their buying decisions. That's a guess, but it's what I would do if I ran a retail company like that.

I've also been searching for linen and wool, as well as organic cotton.  It's my little way to try to edge them towards selling better stuff!

One site that I've bought a lot of reasonably priced wool clothing and leather shoes is Zulily, and also clothing made in the USA.  It's like a company that sells brand overstocks.   I probably mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I think it's worth mentioning again. I've ordered from them many times in the past 8 years or so, picked up some lovely sweaters in wool and cotton.

My winter gear: wool sweater + down coat + wool hat + silk scarf + wool socks + wool leggings + cotton corduroy pants + insulated gloves. Down coat and gloves are store bought and the rest are self-made. At one time both vehicles broke down and I had to walk in freezing temperature to work, that was how I bundled up.