Working WITH Blackberries/Brambles

Hello All, long time lurker, rare-contributor here...

Here in the Southern Willamut Valley of Western Oregon in the Pacific Northwest, one need never plant Blackberries as they are eager volunteers... SO eager.
Much can be done to remove them, again and again, year after year..  Cutting, Digging, grazing, smothering, (hopefully NOT spraying), etc.
I do many of these things to keep them in check, to let my planted trees keep ahead, and keep pathways open within  my more intensively managed areas.

Then on other parts of the land where I live, in the far pastures, there are huge sections covered with giant Blackberry bushes.
I suppose, ideally I would (If I was more determined and ambitious and those sorts of things)  get the understory of my food forest planted to especially useful and diverse permaculture golden-children.

However... have you ever noticed how rich and beautiful the soil is beneath a healthy stand of Blackberries?  
I have heard they will grow themselves out of a job after 20-some years in a spot.
I notice plenty of trees (Oregon Ash, Red Alder, Maple, Cottonwood, etc)  coming up through giant stands of the "Acre-Eaters."
They have the protection and shade of their thorny Bramble brethren to aid them (nurse/chaperones).
Also the Quail, and many other wild lives thrive under their protection and by their food-yield.

In the Food Forest section which I manage more closely, I will often cut back the Canes and roll them into heaps here and there.
The heaps seem to break down into nice compost after a bit.  Fungi and other tiny critters seem to like these heaps.

But- the fruit trees and shrubs don't seem to mind the thorny neighbors (and may even enjoy some benefits from them) as long as they do not get totally overwhelmed.

This approach DOES have drawbacks:
lots of thorns sticking into me (or is it free Acupuncture?), messy-looking (until you learn to love the look of Brambles),  blocked access to trees and paths (for me AND deer), lots of Canes to cut (lots of free mulch), and neighbors who think I'm a lazy, crazy derelict (privacy?)

Also there are TONS TONS TONS of amazing berries!

I have reached ramble stage, so I will exit here...
Anyone else think about Brambles/Blackberries this way?  Other thoughts or strategies  that people employ in similar circumstances?

P.S.  I love this site and the people who share soo much here!!!

Hi George, I have a similar issue. I too love blackberries and believe my wild one are the best around. They’re my favorite local fruit and I eat all I can.
I too have them sprouting up all around my planted fruit trees and bushes. Here’s the thing; Japanese beetles won’t touch what I’ve planted as long as I leave a good stand of brambles for them. I let them grow all through my elderberry, grapes and aronia berries. Nearly everything is spared. Well, except my arms and hands while harvesting. Most years my aronia berry harvest is well past the beetles invasion so I’ll cut the brambles off at ground level before I start picking.
If your neighbors think you’re strange now wait until you leave brambles growing through your other plants! Oh well, most people don’t understand what we do anyway.

Something I have noticed in my wild black berry row is once trees have grown within the row, the partial shading seems to help the fruits to be larger. Yay!

No wild ones for me, but I have found raspberries and blackberries to be reliable,low maintenance and high value.
I also value the way the thorns act as a natural encouragement to respect my front yard.
At my yarden Ive been using pieces of metal display grid to wrangle the canes.
I force the branches through the large openings, securing them with a twist tie if necessary.
It works well enough Im out of metal grid.

Going forward I envision a system like what is used for tomatoes.
A single top bar or cable with twine tying each cane to it.
Im wondering if I could use a weight instead of a hook so the twine adjusts as the cane grows.

How do yall wrangle your canes, or do you just let thrm run wild?

I envy those who have wild blackberries.  I had to plant mine here on the dry side of Washington State.  They have taken over the back of the garden.  But!  I have cattle panel fencing snd I keep pushing them back through the fence squares in some semblance of order.

This year I’ll get a good crop and I love the brambles.

Hi
I have been under the dome(AKA the giant magnifying glass that helped put everything on fire.)  My thornless blackberries are doing fine, but blackberries with thorns have been acting as one of my canaries in the heat.  By noon it's wilting from the sunshine.  I have placed shade cloth over them.  It helps but it's not a perfect solution.  It has been quite happy in the smoke.  The brown horizon and blood red sun seems to agree with the berry bushes.  I've been thinking of moving the bushes to a shady location of my yard.  I would prefer them there.  I'm allergic to sunlight.  Is it a good idea to move them to the shade or am I setting myself up for a different set of problems?
My raspberries have made bumper crops this year.  The ring the neighbor's doorbell and run away is a good way to get rid off the excess berries.  Food bank will not take them.  Neither will meals on wheels.  I have preserved  two years worth in the freezer and dried a bunch.  I use metal fencing to keep them confined.  There are raspberry suckers popping up twenty feet away.  They have invaded the hedge and I have left them there to keep out the wildlife and people.  I pull the suckers when they first appear.  I have left a few for neighbors who want raspberry bushes.
My blackberries are only 2 years old.  The thornless are producing berries this year.  The other blackberries haven't bloomed yet.
     

George Tyler wrote: one need never plant Blackberries as they are eager volunteers... SO eager.

I think it may be worth planting some even in this situation, because then you can plant named varieties, which have their specific benefits.

My country has the saying "The blackberry prepares the oak forrest", i think it is obvious why.

I will try to recite the most permie thing i have read about blackberries:

Throw apples/apple seeds into the bramble, once the tree sprouts it will be pruned into
the lollipop-shape by the shade of the bramble. When the tree starts to fruit, the fallen
fruit will attract cattle, which will trample down the blackberries to get to the fallen fruit.

Birds sit on fences and complete the digestive process then I have a nice row of blackberries trained to the fence picked and sold.

I appreciate all of the feedback/feedforward/food-for-thought.

I don't mind them thinking I'm odd,,, I wonder at their sanity when I see them spraying their fencelines with Roundup every year.

I kind of like the giant wall of screening the brambles make between us, though I am sure it drives that neighbor bonkers!

I like the traditional succession technique mentioned of Brambles nursing Apple trees> Apple trees attracting Cows> Cows trampling and fertilizing... and so on.  AWESOME!

Yes I believe there could definitely still be reasons to plant named varieties of berries, though I have not tried any so far that seem better than the good wild ones yet...

I have noticed the bigger plumper berries in the semi-shade, though maybe not quite as sweet as the sunnyside berries- maybe.

I haven't noticed the connections between 'pests' and the brambles like your beetle situation- that's really nice that they protect in that way too!  I will have to observe more.

I  know there is another thread about REMOVING brambles, so I won't go much into my methods here... though I use different methods at different stages of growth and time of year.

Well I have to get back to work for now,  Thanks All!
-George

Hello! I am up in Zone 3 and have transplanted some "Wyoming" Black Raspberry plants.  This transplant took place about a month and a half ago (mid-August). The transplants have taken and are growing well. They are expressing themselves typically but I wanted to ask this forum should I prune the tips of these now before frost sets (in about a week or two)? I can supply a few pictures. Overall, they are about 30" in height. My instinct is to stake them up as is, run wire between the two stakes, tie the fronds to the wire/stakes and then possibly burlap them for the winter. The canes are all new growth, no last years canes present.

To prune or not right now? Or, should the pruning take place late the following May to encourage lateral growth? I thank you for your input on this.

"Wyoming" Black Raspberry plants.  

If they are black caps, upright gray stem with strong thorns. Though I am in zone 7 or 8  I just ignore them until spring then prune off any dead tips and old stalks as low as possible.  If the tips survive the winter they hang in an ark with fruit. if pruned or winter killed they put out more lateral branches to fruit.  They can get 10 feet tall here.  So I tie them to a stake or the trellis for my other berries with bailing twine.  I do not consider them of great value except for their wonderful flavor which can enhance other fruit when I am steam juicing. The flavor can be extracted with ethanol but the bulk of the fruit is hard seeds.

Joylynn Hardesty wrote:Something I have noticed in my wild black berry row is once trees have grown within the row, the partial shading seems to help the fruits to be larger. Yay!

Blackberries (at least here in coastal BC) seem to love partial shade. I have noticed the same thing- far superior berries if they are grown in part shade.

In nature 'the bramble is the mother of the oak' because briars prepare the ground for trees, not least by denying access to grazing animals. In a food forest, where the grazing animal is you and you want access to all your carefully nurtured ground/herb layer species, this effect is less welcome. My way of taming brambles works with their growth habit of arching stems which root at their tips when they touch the ground. In late summer I cut that year's canes at the top of their arch. The next year they fruit on these canes and produce new exploratory ones from the base of the clump. Over time this transforms the clump into something like a bush (with no need for supports), rather than an exponentially spreading monster.

Alan Carter wrote:My way of taming brambles works with their growth habit of arching stems which root at their tips when they touch the ground. In late summer I cut that year's canes at the top of their arch. The next year they fruit on these canes and produce new exploratory ones from the base of the clump. Over time this transforms the clump into something like a bush (with no need for supports), rather than an exponentially spreading monster.

Alan, I know we're talking specifically about blackberries in this thread, but would this technique work for raspberries too?

There were 'wild' blackberries growing nearby, at least their way of growing was like wild, but their fruits were larger and delicious! So I decided not only to pick their fruits, but also make some cuttings. Of these cuttings one blackberry bush started growing in my back yard (shaded spot). Then I was very happy, because I found out the 'wild' blackberries were all removed from where they grew, so I had the only one of its kind left, here in my back yard!
This summer I had lots and lots of blackberries growing from that bush! I made several jars of jam. After harvest I pruned it heavily, because I need to pass alongside that spot with my bicycle to go out of my gate. I don't want brambles overgrowing the path.

As an urbanite on Vancouver Island, I adore our Himalayan blackberries! One less thing to grow myself in my postage stamp yard. And the wine (and wine vinegar) that I made from this year was my favourite. I've also found that they give up their juice well even after being dehydrated, so I don't have to devote space to them in my freezer.

Well I've found one answer to my swale food forest problem of getting fruit trees growing.  I have a deficiency of brambles.  Since, I have red and black wild raspberries and black berries everywhere else this should be easy.  Thanks everyone.

I've been lurking for a long time, and this is my first post. I am at the planning stages of an adventure that will include a blackberry fence, to keep out the deer, elk, and wild turkeys.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I can do to make sure it stays in the 3 to 4 feet perimeter that I have allotted for the fence? I have almost 13 acres, so this seems like it will be a lot of work to keep the blackberries from spreading. Is there another impressive/aggressive plant or shrubs that might keep it in check? Or am I setting myself up for a 13 acre blackberry paradise?

Keeping out the deer/elk/wild turkeys isn't exactly the permie way, is it?

Lana Berticevich wrote:I've been lurking for a long time, and this is my first post. I am at the planning stages of an adventure that will include a blackberry fence, to keep out the deer, elk, and wild turkeys.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I can do to make sure it stays in the 3 to 4 feet perimeter that I have allotted for the fence? I have almost 13 acres, so this seems like it will be a lot of work to keep the blackberries from spreading. Is there another impressive/aggressive plant or shrubs that might keep it in check? Or am I setting myself up for a 13 acre blackberry paradise?

Keeping out the deer/elk/wild turkeys isn't exactly the permie way, is it?

My blackberry patches started out as horse fences which the birds sat on and planted. When I took over the farm I took out all the fencing except one wire at the top of the posts and tie the large vines back to that. Now the new Himalaya canes are mostly one inch in diameter and at least 10 feet tall.   I remove dead canes and retie them because I am maintaining them for ease of food production but for fencing purposes the dead canes are a benefit.  To keep it from becoming a blackberry paradise you need a hedge trimmer. As described they will send out arching canes during the winter and root wherever the tip reaches the ground. So a winter chore is to go out several times and trim them back to the desired fence shape.  Tip rooted plants and bird planted ones are easily removed the first year but after that deep roots and crown tubers make them a decade project to remove so due diligence on your acreage is vital.     Keeping the deer out with a bramble fence is the permie way. I have a nice plum grove after 10 years of suppressing the Himalayas that protected them until they got tall enough now the deer keep them in shape so that I can walk under them.

Alan Carter wrote:
My way of taming brambles works with their growth habit of arching stems which root at their tips when they touch the ground. In late summer I cut that year's canes at the top of their arch. The next year they fruit on these canes and produce new exploratory ones from the base of the clump. Over time this transforms the clump into something like a bush (with no need for supports), rather than an exponentially spreading monster.
Alan, I know we're talking specifically about blackberries in this thread, but would this technique work for raspberries too?

Raspberries, although the cane maintenance is about the same they seldom tip root but send out exploratory roots and new canes come up from these, sometimes at considerable distance. Therefore their maintenance requires cutting off the roots entering the path or transplanting new canes that emerge in the path.  Post about 4 feet high with a single wire on top and some bailing twine to hold them to it works good to keep them upright and orderly.

So that s the story at Qberry Farm. pictures in the Facebook link.

I have a small urban garden with a fedge bordering public footpaths on two sides. So I planted thornless blackberries and was ruthless in eradicating any bird-planted wild ones. The flavour of the thornless generally isn't as good as thorny blackberries, though this year I noticed one plant had far tastier fruit. I forgot to mark it, so next year I'll be sure to tie yarn to those canes and take cuttings.
Raspberries - I made the mistake of planting a few canes in a raised bed. Wonderful berries, but they've completely taken over! Good thing I love raspberries!

Still have to do this myself *and* may be of interest to others:

Quick and Easy Blackberry Bramble Basket

I thought I'd jump in and share a nice idea that I stumbled upon recently. This clever gal made a nice garden bed edging out of her trimmed raspberry canes. Quite nice I think.  Not sure if it would work with blackberries as they are much more thorny, as are some raspberries. Here's the link: https://lovelygreens.com/diy-garden-edging-using-pruned-raspberry-canes/

Hans Quistorff wrote:[Raspberries, although the cane maintenance is about the same they seldom tip root but send out exploratory roots and new canes come up from these, sometimes at considerable distance. Therefore their maintenance requires cutting off the roots entering the path or transplanting new canes that emerge in the path.  Post about 4 feet high with a single wire on top and some bailing twine to hold them to it works good to keep them upright and orderly.

That's my experience with Raspberries too. At least: summer fruiting Raspberries. I now have some Autumn fruiting Raspberries too and I'm interested to find out what they will do. It seems they grow in a different way.

Nature has provided me with a bounty of enthusiastically propagating (invasive) blackberry and wineberry.  I am thrilled to do my part in controlling invasive species by eating them.  The birds, of course, love them too.  Last year I had the upper hand and had an excellent harvest while sharing the bounty with them.  This year bird netting did nothing  and got the upper hand.  I am also increasing my blueberry bushes in another part of my property, but have no idea how to stop the critters from eating every one.  

Now I'm going to scour this thread for pruning info.  Thanks all!

This is my first year growing blackberries in the desert. I have a shade structure and I chose a 5 gallon bucket to plant as my blackberry plant is small. It's a test to see if they'll survive here. Even though I have shade, the air and soil temps kill even heat hardy plants. So I appreciate all the information everyone has posted here.

I'm afraid the Himalayan blackberries have out-competed me in my ecosystem, so I am propagating some thorn-less ones in an effort to fill the niche. It is a struggle to get anyone to pick the wild ones here, although when I pick them and mix them with apples in a crisp, it disappears at a great rate. The Himalayan ones are *very* nutritious. I'm hoping the thorn-less ones are close to as nutritious even though I have heard they don't taste as good.

So much good info in this thread.
I don’t have access to berry bushes.
Is it possible to grow from store bought fruit from seeds or is that a non fruitful venture?

Al Rojales wrote:

Is it possible to grow from store bought fruit from seeds or is that a non fruitful venture?

There's lots of info about starting trees and shrubs from seeds here on permies. Many plants will do better from seeds put straight in the ground, so the roots are never disturbed.

That said, anytime you have a "seed" you have a "gene-splicing experiment" so there's no guarantee that you will get fruit exactly like what you got from the store. Some plants have a greater or lesser tendency to cross pollinate, some trees, like Seaberry and Monkey Puzzle trees actually have male and female trees and you won't know which until they flower (my Seaberry turned out to be male, so I had to splurge and buy a couple of females one of which I've already started trying to layer). Because of this, ideally you would feel that you have space to start quite a few seeds. Ones that turn out well, you keep, ones which don't taste good might still make good compost, animal feed, could be grafted with a variety you do like, or be firewood.  There's never "waste" when Mother Nature's involved.

What sort of berries are you thinking of?

Any berries, i just bought some really good  big blackberries. I saved the seeds. I’m thinking of scarifying and cold stratification in the fridge if anyone thinks it may be worth my time

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:

Hans Quistorff wrote:[Raspberries, although the cane maintenance is about the same they seldom tip root but send out exploratory roots and new canes come up from these, sometimes at considerable distance. Therefore their maintenance requires cutting off the roots entering the path or transplanting new canes that emerge in the path.  Post about 4 feet high with a single wire on top and some bailing twine to hold them to it works good to keep them upright and orderly.

That's my experience with Raspberries too. At least: summer fruiting Raspberries. I now have some Autumn fruiting Raspberries too and I'm interested to find out what they will do. It seems they grow in a different way.

The Autumn fruiting raspberries produce fruit on the tips of first year canes and in our mild winters will overwinter and send out side shoots to produce smaller berries in the spring. The portion of the cane that fruited will generally die back so can be pruned off. You have a choice of pruning the whole cane back during the winter and let them start over or harvest the early berries that are smaller and then remove the old canes. I had mine under a structure to protect them from fall rains and a early heavy snow collapse it on them then when I removed it the deer ate them all that had survived.

Al Rojales wrote:So much good info in this thread.
I don’t have access to berry bushes.
Is it possible to grow from store bought fruit from seeds or is that a non fruitful venture?

I think it is very possible you can do that - because there are two ways that blackberries spread: through their rizomes, and through the spreading of their fruit and seeds by birds, foxes, and water ways, according to Google.

If it works for you, I would be interested to hear about it.

New guy to the area here, but my thoughts -

Berries are a great forage food/snack, though not great for storage or transport in their unprocessed form. Though, jams and jellies are always a favorite, and there's nothing better than a blackberry cobbler.  Not sure if they can be dried well, I might have to look into that, unless someone knows the answer? But, easy pickings for some natural sugar and a high moisture content make them great for late afternoons in hot fields.

The most you (usually) have to compete with is birds, so if you have a problem with thievery from animals, a lot of them are going to find less prickly dining. The same can be said for the human element as well - if there's a problem or you want to prepare for the possibility of people raiding your gardens or orchards, blackberries grown around fencing make a great combination to deter all but the most dedicated, or at least funnel them to somewhere you want them to go. All creatures, regardless of if they have four or two legs, will take the path of least resistance, and unless it's life or limb, they're not likely to climb or crawl through a wall of sharp blackberry brambles. And, those same brambles can put some food on the table as well, so your security system can pay for itself. This doesn't work on everything of course, some large animals simply aren't bothered by them terribly (such as cattle), but horses tend to avoid them.

Of course, using them intentionally for this would require some effort in planting and training, or simply cutting away the undesirables and leaving the ones you want, if they volunteer easily in your area. They do, at least where I live, grow wild in abundance to the point of annoyance, but they're remarkably resilient and seem to grow just about everywhere. I can't imagine it would take a lot to grow some to task if desired, though they do tend to underproduce when there is a lack of rain. I have not, however, seen any healthy plants die, even in the worst droughts in the area. Once they're mature, they're almost impossible to kill completely - even being cut down or aggressively trimmed will only beat them back until the next year. Of course, the trick is getting them to mature, so if you're having to grow them from seeds, there might be a venture in that, but I've never attempted it.  

Does anyone have any ideas on what to plant alongside/under/around blackberries, other than poison ivy

Please don't plant poison ivy though if you plant poison with four-leaf clover you will get a "rash" of Good Luck!

Strawberries and purslane might be good with blackberries.

If you are trying to contain the blackberries then echinacea, purple coneflower would be lovely to surround the blackberries.

Anne Miller wrote:Please don't plant poison ivy though if you plant poison with four-leaf clover you will get a "rash" of Good Luck!

Strawberries and purslane might be good with blackberries.

If you are trying to contain the blackberries then echinacea, purple coneflower would be lovely to surround the blackberries.

Hahaha! That's good!

Purslane and strawberries sound ideal.  I'm going for the alpine strawberries.  

Susan Mené wrote:Does anyone have any ideas on what to plant alongside/under/around blackberries, other than poison ivy

Under my blackberry there's a rhubarb growing. I did not plant the rhubarb under the blackberry, I planted them side-by-side. The blackberry makes long vines and I lead those up high with a frame of dead branches, the rhubarb plant is half under it.

Susan Mené wrote:Does anyone have any ideas on what to plant alongside/under/around blackberries, other than poison ivy

Training them for production outside of a kitchen garden area I have found comfrey to be an ideal ground cover between crowns.  It prevents other seeds that birds my drop and start brush from taking advantage of your maintaining openness an light int the patch.   My patches started from birds on a fence so I keep them mowed on both sides and the comfrey in between saves  on maintenance of the space between crowns.

This may be anecdotal, but I have some asparagus growing amongst the raspberry canes that seem to do well. Raspberry leaves aren't dense in the spring when Asparagus gets harvested, and when summer hits and the raspberries bear their fruit, the asparagus can grow out and cast some shade, keeping grass from growing amongst the canes. Has anyone tried this combination?

Alan Burnett wrote:This may be anecdotal, but I have some asparagus growing amongst the raspberry canes that seem to do well. Raspberry leaves aren't dense in the spring when Asparagus gets harvested, and when summer hits and the raspberries bear their fruit, the asparagus can grow out and cast some shade, keeping grass from growing amongst the canes. Has anyone tried this combination?

That is an interesting idea. Are they listed anywhere you know of as companion plants?  Which one should be planted first?  I'm thinking the asparagus since they need to go in deep about 6-12 inches with a center mound for the crown.  Then the dirt is filled into the hole as the crown gets established/grows.  After the soil reaches almost ground level then the raspberries can go in as their roots can be more shallow. Is that correct?
Don't asparagus roots spread?  Won't asparagus compete for space/nutrients with the raspberries which do spread and move outward every year?  I'm trying to contain my raspberry patch and planted them in raised boxes. Formerly they were planted in the ground and filled up the walkways and were a big bramble mess hard to harvest.  I had the rows only about 24 inches apart.  So, I want to see if they would stay happy in a confined space. This is the 3rd year since planting them in the box.  I just planted some asparagus in the ground, sort of in a confined space as one side is raised off the ground/drops off and is bordered by metal/concrete and fencing and the other side ends at a rock covered pathway/hardpan.

I think also the raspberries like an acid soil.  Is this also true for asparagus?
Very curious to know how yours get along by the 2nd and 3rd year when asparagus harvest expected to increase.  

Johanna Breijer wrote:Hi
I have been under the dome(AKA the giant magnifying glass that helped put everything on fire.)  My thornless blackberries are doing fine, but blackberries with thorns have been acting as one of my canaries in the heat.  By noon it's wilting from the sunshine.  I have placed shade cloth over them.  It helps but it's not a perfect solution.  It has been quite happy in the smoke.  The brown horizon and blood red sun seems to agree with the berry bushes.  I've been thinking of moving the bushes to a shady location of my yard.  I would prefer them there.  I'm allergic to sunlight.  Is it a good idea to move them to the shade or am I setting myself up for a different set of problems?
My raspberries have made bumper crops this year.  The ring the neighbor's doorbell and run away is a good way to get rid off the excess berries.  Food bank will not take them.  Neither will meals on wheels.  I have preserved  two years worth in the freezer and dried a bunch.  I use metal fencing to keep them confined.  There are raspberry suckers popping up twenty feet away.  They have invaded the hedge and I have left them there to keep out the wildlife and people.  I pull the suckers when they first appear.  I have left a few for neighbors who want raspberry bushes.
My blackberries are only 2 years old.  The thornless are producing berries this year.  The other blackberries haven't bloomed yet.
     

Good grief - who doesn't like raspberries??  Unbelievable that the food bank and Meals for seniors won't take them!!  You are welcome to ring my doorbell with baskets any time - but please don't run away!!  I'd love to be your neighbor  What is the dome you are under?  (Sorry I don't get the analogy of the magnifying glass).  What area of the world do you live in? I'm in northern california - and there's been a lot of fires in the west USA in recent years.