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Moving Forward

 
Posts: 32
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Asking people who are currently in or have been before in a situation where they had no access to land, could not find anyone around them who they could relate to or work with towards shared goals, and were incapable of appealing economically to society thus being without any bank coupons:

What do you do to move forward in life? Is there a way to live in this context without giving in to hedonism? How do I find a giant rock face to carve a mural into if I live in a flat place with deep bedrock? Do you think there is potential to organize an 'underground' social movement among people who are still fully imprisoned in city life and if so, do you have any ideas about how to find people to be involved in something like this? How can I help people realize that there is ACTUALLY no separation (that means no creation, no causality, no freedom, no independence, no competition, no randomness, etc. - only infinite self-relation where self is void, not a person)?

I truly have no idea left of what to do. I've been turning my parent's tiny city yard into a little patch of diverse wildlife habitat for about 9 years now and it is overflowing all it can do is keep growing up but my neighbors have already complained to the city about it. The main area I had been guerilla planting nearby - a site that was vacant since the 1920s - just got completely cleared by machinery this spring and now they're building a car stealership there. I've tried to figure out how to write a book about the story of garden>natural disaster>trauma from loss>declaration of separation from the world>re-enactment of disaster>sickness>awakening>conflict>return to the garden but I don't know how to flesh it out because there seems too little direction for selecting from the various specifics that the story could be nested in, which are essentially arbitrary, and all my life my attempts to convey meaningful information to people using words have seemed thoroughly counterproductive. I've been studying permaculture for almost 12 years now especially focusing on integration with the water cycle and expanding symbiotically related diversity, but I still don't know what I can actually do with it that will make any lasting difference. No one I talk to seems to be able to understand that other people do not recognize my existence most of the time and if they see/hear me, my appearance is not that of someone who would support the growth of industry and institutions, so I still haven't found any opportunities to sell my time and energy for central bank coupons that I could use to bribe other people to allow access to degraded abandoned land.. it just seems like whenever my parents don't keep me alive anymore I will die, I don't really know what other option there is.

Does anyone have any idea? Is this part of reality actually just a severed root of the tree of life that will rot back into the soil?
 
gardener
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Never give in!

I'm not sure how much help my advice will be, never having experienced urban USA myself.  I used to be in suburban Britain however as an engineer in the automotive industry, before finding our slice of land on the edge here.
My suggestion would be to try and concentrate on the community aspect you have there. Focus on what you can give.  You obviously have a fair amount of experience making the most of a small space.  Is there a school that could use help growing food in planters? Or a soup kitchen that might use some of your herbs? By building relationships you may be surprised what other opportunities arise.
The other thing you may consider is looking at the SKIP concept: all about SKIP. This is about building skills to impress possible landowners who wish to pass on property to someone worthy. Either they don't have relations to inherit, or wish the land/project to go to someone more aligned with their values. I assume you have looked into WWOOFing and other forms of land experience already?
 
master steward
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Alex, said "I truly have no idea left of what to do. I've been turning my parent's tiny city yard into a little patch of diverse wildlife habitat for about 9 years now and it is overflowing all it can do is keep growing up but my neighbors have already complained to the city about it.



THIS!

I feel what you are doing is the way I would go.

I can't change the world.  I can only change myself and the way I live my life.

Since you have already been doing "guerilla gardening" why not get try this:

https://permies.com/wiki/112201/pep-foraging/lbs-seed-balls-bombs-PEP

Here are some others that might work for you:

https://permies.com/wiki/122865/Seed-saving-PEP-BB-gardening

https://permies.com/wiki/103008/Direct-Seed-Perennials-PEP-BB

https://permies.com/wiki/122923/Encouraging-volunteer-wild-plants-PEP

I wish you the best while you move forward!
 
gardener
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Alex,
Your want to get out of where you are dating back a few years is noted.  This is something permies.  So hang in there and as Anne says, get some BBs under your belt.  Is there an opportunity to work with a community organisation to start a community garden project.  With a reasonable sized plot, you could set up a food forest, build meeting sheds and a kitchen to help out those who are less fortunate but prepared to put in a bit of effort.  This type of project will help to improve not only physical health but mental health and improve social skills.  There are so many people who have been pushed into poverty, something like this is what they need and someone like you can make it happen.

The up side for you is that you get to eat good food and meet interesting people .  And to boot, you might just find someone who is looking for a PEP 4 Permie to inherit their property.  Best Wishes with your journey.  Please keep up all up to date with your journey.  Journeys are seldom alone đź‘Ť
 
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Alex Michaud wrote:
What do you do to move forward in life? Is there a way to live in this context without giving in to hedonism? How do I find a giant rock face to carve a mural into if I live in a flat place with deep bedrock? Do you think there is potential to organize an 'underground' social movement among people who are still fully imprisoned in city life and if so, do you have any ideas about how to find people to be involved in something like this? How can I help people realize that there is ACTUALLY no separation (that means no creation, no causality, no freedom, no independence, no competition, no randomness, etc. - only infinite self-relation where self is void, not a person)?



Uncomfortable

So often we find ourselves seeking comfort
It makes life easier to walk this way
Wouldn’t it be great to live like at a resort
With all of life’s desires and pleasantries on display

Does our seeking comfort in conversation
Lead us a little astray
Leaving us without having a revelation
Life is not black and white so many shades of gray

Shining a light on what may not be so obvious
While it may seem confrontational
Others seem content with one way that seems oblivious
Opening up and listening might just be sensational

-Ybul
 
Alex Michaud
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Thanks for your replies.

It seems unrealistic for me to look for social avenues to move forward anymore since I have consistently found throughout my life that any time interacting with people goes beyond surface levels of communication, there is a dramatic shutdown from other people and often extreme hostility, likely because of some things that I mentioned in my original post about what the nonexistence of separation really means, which I mention frequently because it seems like the primary narrative driving degenerative dissonant relationships with local context... There is much more to it than words though which I do not know how to explain. All I know is that as long as I can remember, the only times people actually recognize my existence for more than a short time are when I adopt insincere gestures in an attempt to integrate with social conventions, and even before this there are many instances where people seem to be "energetically" blinded to me. I have experienced many times when people walked 'through' me, not even noticing that they bumped into me, and other similar phenomena. Often it feels like I am just not present in the same part of reality. Anyway, I have still pursued social things as a priority throughout most of my life because it has always been very important to me to form meaningful authentic relationships (despite never succeeding at it), but I think I am out of that type of energy now. I surely have nothing in me to put into trying to make myself appealing to strangers in the hopes that they might validate a claim of possession enforced by state violence or basing my presence on some part of the earth's surface on the retractable permission of someone unknowable (since it does seem that everyone is unknowable, really).

That said, I simultaneously think that social avenues are the ONLY way to actually be part of a movement of humanity towards integration with the water cycle and symbiotically related diversity as the basis of culture and habitation. Every time I talk to people about it, which I do every day still, it just leads back to.. I've already tried all this in whatever ways I could find available.. I have WWOOFed before, I have tried to start a community food forest on vacant city land but of course found no interest in it around me, I have traveled around the country living in a car temporarily volunteering, going to events, etc.. trying to find anyone or anywhere that actually made sense, I've taken two PDCs in different cities, I've tried to organize other community projects, I've hosted a free screening of the movie Inhabit a permaculture perspective which almost no one came to, I've tried to connect many ways online, etc... There is still no community nor any bonds with others in my life whatsoever, despite what I've done. I think that I might actually just be a brief irrelevant life.

Just as another note, I certainly will not be driven by the pursuit of comfort as this can be achieved in many ways that enable the degeneration of life. If comfort is a byproduct of supporting the integrity of systems, that's fine of course, but I would not be living for personal experience in the first place as I do not value the nature of reality (since there are many possible things that should not exist by any reasonable evaluation and it prevents the expression of harmony)... While I am trapped here as an unintentional expression of infinite self-relation, I will pursue only that which can actually enhance harmony on as broad of a scale as possible, but it does not seem available.

I would guess that my response probably seems dismissive and I don't intend it to be but I suppose it is a bit, since there is still nothing new coming up anywhere that I can see around me and it's exhausting to address everything each time. I guess all I can do is keep doing the things I've already been doing (learning things and practicing skills when I have energy to which is fewer and farther between as time goes on) to pass time in this life that is worse than no life at all. Tada, nothing/everything. sorry for wasting your time if you've read or replied to this thread and are invested in what exists.
 
pollinator
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I really like your post.  How does one be at peace and one with the void/god/nature/self , more often than not. And if I myself can't even do it how can I educate others to do such a thing? It seems that permaculture brings you peace vs making metallic music or researching nuclear fusion, thats good we all have different calling.

Maybe you could become a landscaper, then when you get a job install trees that have showy blossoms and a bonus of edible fruits. Lots of folks like raised beds, maybe you can put an ad on craigslist/etc and people will contact you to install it. Maybe you can post a free workshop on meetup.com where you do something garden. Maybe this will become your full time job where you are making $50,000/year.

Maybe you have bad credit, but in 7yrs it will be gone, maybe you have no credit even better in 2yrs you will have great credit, just get a two credit card and a personal loan, but don't use them for anything other than building your credit. Maybe you dont make enough money to live downtown, how about 40miles (1hr outside the city). House in my city cost 1 million dollar even in the worse area. a condo is almost half a million dollar. But within an hour drive I can find 2acres for only $10,000. https://www.landwatch.com/bristol-county-massachusetts-undeveloped-land-for-sale/pid/411453157 And once ever 3yrs I see 10acres for $20,000 without me really looking. So make it a goal to have $20,000 saved up so that you can jump on an opportunity that showup.

Or you can extend your area and move to texas/florida/etc. If you have kids dependent on you, such a move would be harder but still doable.

Don't give up, but yes it sucks when people/situations sucks the good vibes out of you
 
John Wibel
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Sorry....  hit enter before being done.  

Is it your job to do so?  (show all those things?)  I think our jobs are to be a reflection of joy without opposite and "Gods Love" (really that is all God is, Love, imo)..  All you can do, is be present for another when you are with them, show compassion and understanding.  Pointing out how your neighbors and society is wrong today, is an attack, and ultimately their defense is an attack on you.  

Anyway, is life simply a dream...  In the Bible, Adam fell asleep.  There is no reference of him waking.  As in your dreams things get crazier the longer you sleep to help bring you back, life is very crazy today, are we trying to wake ourselves back up?
 
S Bengi
pollinator
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I see your new post. It seems that you have tried alot to interact with people about the water cycle and how they should give up their sense of seperation. I am not too sure where you can find such people at the level that you are seeking. Most people have taken a different path, and to leave it is very hard. You might have to look for people who have not taken up any path or have given up on their pervious path without any input from you.

You idea of no seperation, isn't just an actionable item of plant trees or even the ridiculously hard lose weight, instead it is an attack on their "religion, politician  affiliation, etc". Wars have been fought for alot less. Lead by example and show them how great you are living and how if they follow you life will be just as great/meaningful/etc.

We have to have our own inner peace/education/money/land/etc before we can even try to give it to others. The goal is to observe emotions and see how they flow, but not to dwell on them and esp not to relive them (resentment), or to have an expectation that we should be followed/praised (prideful).

I still like the idea of you building out your lifestyle then publicize it, someone will join sooner or later.
 
John Wibel
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I suggest looking into ACIM...

https://acim.org

Its message is one I have begun studying and seems like where you are.  I personally had a completely different energy a while back, trying to save the world.  I now know all I can save is myself and only allow positivity to be reflected back to others.  Trying to change things seemed to make no difference and in letting go things improved.

Anyway, Allan Savorys work is being recognized as is using ag to draw down carbon.

Peace
 
John Wibel
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I started writing my poems, that yesterday, based on church, which has helped as to know peace, teach it to learn it.
 
Anne Miller
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Alex said, "I guess all I can do is keep doing the things I've already been doing (learning things and practicing skills when I have energy to which is fewer and farther between as time goes on) to pass time in this life that is worse than no life at all.



What this made me think of is that you have a community right here on this forum.

Find some threads where people are asking questions that you can offer them help.

You have taken two PDCs and appear to know a lot about gardening.  

Why not find some threads on the gardening forum where someone is asking questions.

https://permies.com/c/growies

Also, we have what is called "Zero Replies". Why not look there for people to help:

https://permies.com/forums/posts/zeroReplies
 
pollinator
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Are 'you' 'existing' in the void? Or very near the edge of it? Are 'you' in a (spiritual) dissociative state? Is that why people walk through you? If any of this is close to the mark or possibly seems true then perhaps some spiritual guidance would be helpful. I have come to trust Craig Holliday. He is versed in such matters. Craighholliday.com. He has a meeting on Sunday nights and you can ask questions. It's free on his Facebook page which is Craig Holliday. He has videos on YouTube also.

I'm sorry you're having a tough time. I once fell into the realization of no self for 5 months and boy did I get nothing done because none of it mattered. But then life took me by the shirt collar and tossed me back into the fray out of the lovely realization of the truth that there is no separation between us and anything. So, don't just hang in there, seek assistance. I'm happy to visit with you by purple mooseage if you feel inclined.
 
gardener
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Especially with access to the internet, people really have access to such a wide range of people, activities. Is there something that prevents moving, if you feel your current home/location is holding you back? There are a LOT of people/groups out there and it's just a matter of finding them, either online or in-person.

You mention people shutting down when you open up to them, that can happen for a variety of reasons. Communication methods vary among people, as do previous life experiences and personal preferences. So perhaps a person doesn't understand the points you're trying to make, or perhaps they do and disagree with you.

I personally found that as I start to explain my permie-ish ideas to say my coworkers, most will get that glass-eyed look after a moment, and I try to remind myself that the average person is at level 0 of the Wheaton Eco Scale: https://permies.com/t/scale while some of my ideas are in the level 5+ range and thus I can sound like a crazy person. So I have to frame my ideas in "level 1" words.

It sounds like you're currently living with your parents or at least with some of their assistance, but maybe I didn't ready it correctly. Is moving an option for you? Have you looked for similar minded local groups through something like Meetup? There are various places out there which have internships where you can learn new shills to help you develop a career doing something you enjoy. Perhaps hopping on a bus with a backpack of clothes to live somewhere for a few months or a year or two where you learn skills and gain experience will help you move forward.
 
John Wibel
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You are right there is no separation…. However original sin is the belief we are separate from god.  Nothing is separate from god, we are all one within the collective consciousness.

There are two ways of acting, through fear…. That everything is wrong and falling apart. I lived there AND tried everything I could do to fix it (drawing down carbon through adaptive grazing).

It made me miserable, and really didn’t change a thing. I let go and let god and things I was trying to do are starting to happen at the policy level.  

Attacking another because you feel they are harming something is never going to change it, it will simply irritate the other person. Going back to your statement that everything is connected, if you use you nails on a chalkboard the reaction you get is negative and if you used an eraser it is a pleasant response. Being militant serves no one, yes many things are wrong and many are right. The fact we can have a dialogue on the subject, we are not slaves, and so much more are right. The moving away from cities has begun and local food hubs ( a necessity for farming to be profitable - and yes it needs to be profitable environmentally, economically and socially, otherwise nothing works.)

You can complain all you want about money and how everything should be free for everyone….  Maybe with 99% less population it works, but it’s not a reality today. Thinking that humans, or any species for that matter is going to be completely selfless, fails to understand nature. The buck antelope running off the other male across the road today so he gets all 15 girls himself shows just that.  The Chinese changed their country when the village set forth rules which allowed the individual to have a percent of what they grew increased production and if you look at Savorys model in Zimbabwe you see how you have to focus on all three pillars to make the system work.

Set off an EMP and end civilization… problem there is the nuke power plants melt down and the world is more of a mess. Change happens one step at a time, what POSITIVE step can you make to help the world be a better place. A smile might lift another’s spirit causing a cascade effect that helps much more.
 
John Wibel
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The other way of acting is through love….  Could giving your time to another in a way building trust allow you to change ONE persons mind, moving the system in a positive direction.
 
John Wibel
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Love, helps to bring forth what you are working towards. Fear brings forth that which you are working against as your focus is still on the thing you do not want.

I am working towards nutrient dense food that heals people, grown in a way that heals the land… while trying to work with community in a way that makes everyone better off. Do I want to throw out technology, nope as it helps me learn, some costs me (and the environment) more than it benefits and should be given up. But Hotwire fences allow me to more closely mimic what happens in Nature and allows a healing of the earth.  We got into this mess with technology, we are going to need to use it to right the ship. Though that car dealership, the roads and fuel to make the system more efficient, probably needs to be altered.
 
Alex Michaud
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To be clear, I do realize that my posting here in the first place was irrational and an act of desperation in a moment of weakness when I wanted to escape feeling discomfort. I remember now of course that there is nothing possible except continuing to watch insufficiency play out.
 
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The entire world is based on egoism, selfishness and greed (by the humans its even greed for money, which doesn't feed you, if you not put it into a hand who will feed you out of his own greed.)

As most are saying:
Be yourself and do not try to safe the world when there is only a minority listening and a minority of them who listen will be acting.

BUT, if you can turn the greed into a natural oriented "making a permaculture profitable", speaking creating a greed which creates a need for nature,
(in a big group or union you won't find until you have proof your way is better and more rewarding)
then you might have found the stone of wisdom................

For so far, do what the most permies want.
Be an example of self-sustaining, life off grid or produce your own bio resources and and energy, hope that slowly a few more wake up and follow your way.

I followed the rat race, seeking where I can make the most bang to get a secured way out of the rat race.
58 years now I am very close to my dream farm, have built up the (financial) backup to tell that my trees, veggies and animals are waiting for my input, investing all this earnings to become finally super rich.
Nobody will kick me out of my hammock spanned between two trees when i decide its the right moment to have a siesta in the midday heat.
And all jobs to come have to be done because its my retirement and they will keep me going with outmost pleasure.

If the yield drops an extra coin, well nice to have and if a greedy human sees there is a coin to make in natural living, well come and visit me and learn the difference between "rich" and "rich" by a glass of homemade wine...

The people who made complaints at the city council:
Did you approach them the right way or did you jump onto their war path against them? Did you ever tried to bond up?

Hi neighbor, would you mind to come for a minute in my Garden?
Pick a berry or fruit and stuff it into his mouth to show the original taste not the supermarket taste.
Walk around and explain what is what and for what its good.
Say sorry for the weed alike veggie, that is just crawling through the fence or give the grown through overproduction away if he/she wants it.
Give away the best looking of all fruits, even you would love to eat it yourself and teach that the spotted by bugs one even may be tasting better...
If he is struggling by something, did you offer a hand again and again?
Did you listen to his life and sufferings?

I reckon you live side by side, getting ignored and talked behind because nobody made a start to communicate the right way, did you?
"I tried" and "I wanted" is telling from the past and it is not good enough, only a steady drip can hollow a stone..

Permie is also maintaining a permanent love to your enemy be it a bug, a caterpillar, a bird or a neighbor on an accurate cut green lawn.  


 
Alex Michaud
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There is nothing to try to accomplish. Change is an illusion. Plenty of people are invested in what exists, and I do not and will not respect any of them. There is no reason for people to continue replying to this thread, I have already remembered that there is nothing possible except continue watching insufficiency play out.
 
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it just seems like whenever my parents don't keep me alive anymore I will die, I don't really know what other option there is.
Does anyone have any idea? Is this part of reality actually just a severed root of the tree of life that will rot back into the soil?



Hi Alex. There is a short book, available at any decent library, that you might like about a man in a similar situation. His name is Chance. You might like to read about what happened to this guy when his parents died and there was no one left to take care of him. Things were difficult but really, his life in the garden taught him everything he needed to know about navigating the world. Like you, he had zero success in the urban reality: he never lived outside his little Eden. His experience in the garden was so specific: profoundly observant. He took that knowledge with him into the urban reality and people responded positively. You asked for ideas, people have given given you so much here on Permies. Maybe you need to hear a completely new perspective that re-focuses you on the teachings of the garden. Maybe let go of thinking and theorizing for a while. Read the book, Being There, by Jerzy Kosinski. You will smile again.
 
gardener
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I never consider "self" as a void but a pool of experiences. A pool that can expand and contract as ideas and acquaintances come and go. I enjoy experiencing the pools of others, the currents of their ideas, the fry of ideas, before they develop into a huge fish of reality.  Acknowledgement is a progressive experience, I'm not looking for a participation trophy I want my contributions that had to start small because of the lack of land and Benjamin's result in a step forward and any step forward is good.  I find that being calm and confident in my beliefs creates a pool where people become curious enough to want to see if the water is the right temperature, to at least dip their toes in if not immediately jump in. Animated conversations whether verbal or in print have their place, as an introduction I find it off putting sometimes if it starts out correctional. I try never to use the bully pulpit but like to point out how there are other ways of accomplishing a task but explain why I do it in a particular way. I enjoy a good verbal spar but want it to be a conversation where both parties are listening. I don't want them to 'rope a dope" and shut down by being told they are wrong. A "convincersation" rather than a conversation. A seed takes time to germinate a tree takes time to to produce fruit. Immediate gratification is not something I have found in developing any of my permaculture efforts.
patience.jpg
[Thumbnail for patience.jpg]
 
Alex Michaud
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I've unfortunately heard all these types of suggestions before many times, and mostly I already considered them myself before I heard them from anyone else anyway, but fundamentally, no suggestion of information would be relevant to addressing the actual problem since the actual problem is the nature of reality itself.. I've never been to an "Eden" type environment  before. The only garden I have to experience is a 6x12m space surrounded by buildings that is primarily oriented towards supporting native wildlife because it obviously could not support human life in a good way anyway. No one in a city that I have approached regarding what I've learned has ever responded well, and I would NEVER try to survive in modern culture, no matter what. Trying to survive because of products of agriculture and industry is objectively worse than being dead. Existing as part of a reality that includes agriculture in the first place, is worse than being dead by any reasonable evaluation.

When I talk about self - as in true self, not the false self that is seen as a person - I am talking about fundamental void, not a person. I am not saying that a person is a void, I'm saying that all things that exist are expressions of void and that a person is not an example of self because a person is a surface level expression of localized related difference that occurs when fundamental void "sees" itself as its own opposite. Belief in change is a fundamental misunderstanding and as I've mentioned multiple times now, I realize that many people want to experience the appearance of difference throughout dimensionality and want to believe that they can influence what exists and want to see what else will exist in other parts of reality that they witness, but I do not want any of this. It was a mistake to post here in which I refused to admit that reality is how it is. I quickly remembered that reality is how it is. I would never try to be part of it.
 
John Wibel
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Alex Michaud wrote: Plenty of people are invested in what exists, and I do not and will not respect any of them. .



Is it your goal to respect others or have them respect you?  My goal is to have others respect me for speaking my truth, listening and conversing to know that my truth is the truth and so much more.

Again if you want to respect others, that will be gained by respecting yourself and living and speaking in a positive way for that which you believe. I see anger, which I had, that did no good for the world or me. Finding that inner passion and belief that others can see and understand because they know I believe with all my conviction that I am right, BUT will still listen to see how I may be wrong allows others to gain respect for me. All I care about is others seeing me being as true to my self as I can be.  Me respecting them, I don’t need to respect them, but I need to honor them in a way in which respects their soul and does not shut them down from HEARing a different way.

The poem on hearing which you might need to reflect on how others need to step outside of themselves, and project onto you.


- [ ] Hear

- [ ] What is it that I fear
- [ ] Other thoughts which shouldn’t come near
- [ ] My beliefs I hold so dear
- [ ] Do I not want to stand out from my peer

- [ ] Wanting so much to conform
- [ ] Change happens on thought at a time
- [ ] So hard to step out from the days norm
- [ ] Doing so is almost a crime

- [ ] Most times science is never perfectly clear
- [ ] New facts get looked at with a leer
- [ ] Why not try to slow down and hear
- [ ] It might allow us to rise up and cheer

- [ ] Ybul
 
See Hes
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Alex Michaud wrote:There is nothing to try to accomplish. Change is an illusion. Plenty of people are invested in what exists, and I do not and will not respect any of them. There is no reason for people to continue replying to this thread, I have already remembered that there is nothing possible except continue watching insufficiency play out.



If you put yourself purposely onto this path then your question of your first post has no answer at all.

There are people who never make it in life and there are people who live in the full....

...and those who life in the full life, be it having a Mercedes Car, a wealth of money, making holiday in Vegas, or having a little self-sustaining farm where they life happy with

under the skin all these types are entrepreneurs who are willing to go their way as they want to do it.

The School teaching you the rules of life and actually they make a puppet on the string out of you:

-Learn, Learn, be ruled and follow orders
-make an apprenticeship and get paid which is a huge difference to "making your money"
-work hard and climb the ranks to get more paid which is the opposite thinking of an entrepreneur "how much I want to make today?"
-secure a good pension so you work till you drop (then an entrepreneur if successful is just do what pleasures him/her)

entrepreneurs are not made in schools... They are the biggest fear of any teacher and system...
They are not controllable
they are rich either having money, famous or simple life by own choice. Rich has many faces.
they will pick only a very small amount of "friends" and love their life as they choose it but also try new things again and again.
they taking risks on their own and if they fall, these types will just stand up, straighten the crown and take the next risk...

I met here many permies who are entrepreneurs par excellence.
I met Investors in Offshore Projects who are risking Billions
and I met people like me who telling these investors, you can have my skills and common sense to reduce your risk for a certain amount of time and when the Number ($$$) is reached I will have the next risk and move on a farm, well knowing that the income is almost zero compared the job now.
But guess which gives me more prison feeling I not want?

This text written is the last statement of me here: Its a statement about 7.9 billion people and all are individuals.
Alex Michaud you are ONLY ONE of them, don't expect they all respect you but each individual (makes 1/7.900.000.000 world population) you approach the right way could make a huge change to yourself and a bigger change to your doubts and fears.
I guess it's quite a big volume to use for an entrepreneur and for a huge percentage you will even become an idol with great knowledge.
You don't approach them you don't find them.  

nuff said....

 
Robert Ray
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We all have worth, I hope you find your way. I don't always live in the "NOW" as some do but am aware of it.  Something has drawn you here and reality unfortunately does exist with all of the things that come with it. If reality is nothingness how can it be assigned a value of unworthiness?  How can one pursue "apathy" ? I have free will and I have a voice. I live in a reality that has endless possibilities. It is not burden free, my reality, it has pain, fear, joy, sorrow, loss, joy, bliss, I know I will laugh and cry in the future. I welcome reality and all the things that come with it. I am moving forward and to move forward I have to acknowledge the idea of a starting point, yes, moving forward needs the reality that a starting point exists.
 
Paul Fookes
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John Wibel wrote:Its message is one I have begun studying and seems like where you are.  I personally had a completely different energy a while back, trying to save the world.  I now know all I can save is myself and only allow positivity to be reflected back to others.  Trying to change things seemed to make no difference and in letting go things improved.
Peace



When we first moved to Papua New Guinea there appeared to be an overwhelming mountain of social problems and health issues.  By the time we left, HIV AIDS had climbed from the north coast to the central and southern highlands.

In order for us to remain together, we made a conscious decision to focus on our patch in order to lead by example.  The first thing was to get the locals to build a chicken house and give each of our staff K100 to buy day old chickens and feed.  They had to give us back the initial start up because it would otherwise be shared out through the customary family line(s).  We then got the garden going with both local and western type food.  When the drought hit, we were able to feed the expat(Australian) families as well as our neighbours and others.  The point of the story is that we were focused on our bit of ground and not the big insurmountable picture.  Trying to change "things" is not defined.  Things may be contextually mine or someone else's.  I can change my things if I have the want.  Need has no place in change if I have no want.  Robert Rae sums this up very well:

Robert Rae wrote:We all have worth, I hope you find your way. I don't always live in the "NOW" as some do but am aware of it.  Something has drawn you here and reality unfortunately does exist with all of the things that come with it. If reality is nothingness how can it be assigned a value of unworthiness?  How can one pursue "apathy" ? I have free will and I have a voice. I live in a reality that has endless possibilities.



To your original point Alex: You do not need to give in to hedonism.  Hedonism is a friend that helps you achieve, the same way pain (psychological, social or physical) does.  They both produce the same neuro-chemicals from which you get desire (to achieve by moving on from your current situation).  Hedonism used correctly allows positive achievement and appreciation.  It has been said that one needs to appreciate themselves before they can appreciate anything else or understand that they are being appreciated......   Achieving is pleasurable and decreases the body's inflammatory response and hence decreases illness, including depression.  Pain on the other hand can be debilitation and increases the body's inflammatory response.  There is a specific lung cancer that usually occurs in women is 99% fatal and arises as a result of severe stress. The one case I have seen was in a woman who was incredibly  driven to achieve and had a belief that she was falling short inspite of the fact that she was the best at her chosen career path of organisation reorganisation.

Step back once in a while and take time to appreciate (whatever).  The view is never appreciated when you are up close.  Take your cue from others rather than from yourself and if those cues are not what you want, move to another set of others.  You cannot help others to realise what they don't want to realise(see).  So it is pointless trying.  Just set the example and those who realise will join you for the ride of a lifetime and those are the people who will help turn counterculture into culture and underground into mushroom farms.  There is always a light.
 
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Study the weeds.

They appear in the cracks and the joins, in the little piles of debris blown against the walls.  People can rip them out, poison them, burn them, pave over the earth they're standing in, but there's no winning that war. There's always a bit of green slowly widening the cracks, ripping out grout and flinging seeds around.  

Walk or sit in your spaces and just notice them. There's wisdom in weeds.
 
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Hey Alex, your post reminded me of something a friend of mine once told me.

She was born with a benign tumor on her pituitary gland, and also was raised in a household that did a significant amount of meditation in a specific and very powerful mystic tradition.  She spent a significant portion of her childhood and adolescence communing with the true nature of reality (what you call void, I believe) and was very, very detached from the human beings around her.  She describes similar experiences to yours, where people had problems relating to her very existence.  

She eventually realized that she had been chosen to be born into this existence, into this lifetime, for the purposes of having an earthly experience.  She quit meditating and dedicated herself to studying other human beings.  She read many books on psychology and analyzed how others around her react in an effort to learn the social nuances and subtleties of human behavior.  She got into computers, and became very financially successful, and now owns a home on 5 acres with a garden and has a girlfriend.

I think her story is very interesting because in many ways it is the "reverse-yogi."  In spiritual literature the standard quest is the ordinary guy goes up the mountain in search of a spiritual experience, meditates a lot, gets hooked into the nature of the universe, becomes a yogi, and experiences Oneness With It All.  She started off on the mountaintop and had to come down into the valley.

Ultimately of course it's whatever you want to do with your life, but I would invite you to come down into the valley if you so choose.  We have snacks!
 
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Alex, where did you get your philosophy of the nature of reality?
 
master steward & author
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Alex Michaud wrote:Asking people who are currently in or have been before in a situation where they had no access to land, could not find anyone around them who they could relate to or work with towards shared goals, and were incapable of appealing economically to society thus being without any bank coupons:

What do you do to move forward in life?



Stop looking for others to relate to and knuckle down and do what I can with what I got.

No money and no land to homestead, so I got a library card.
Used it to learn to cook healthy food and save money.  Saving 20-120 dollars a week cooking my own food.  Which I then took and used to rent an allotment garden and started growing my own food.  Saved more money, bought a bike so I didn't need to buy gas or public transport.... Got out books on bike repair from the library and learned to save money there.

Got out books on how to repair clothing and how to transform thrift clothing into something that fits.

Once I stopped waiting for others to relate to my dreams or help with them, things started moving forward.  

By taking action and responsibility, instead of waiting on the approval of others, I can make a difference in my life, and sharing my positive projects on permies and elsewhere is helping others take action in their life.

 
Robert Ray
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You have mentioned a 6x12m plot. Is that 6m x 12m? Show us what you have done.
 
Robert Ray
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6m x 12 m what an incredible piece of canvas. The things that could be done on an allotment of that size. I'll have to post pictures of the amount of food produced on smaller community parcels here. I am not a religious man, comparing permaculture to religion  one doesn't need a church, choir congregation to appreciate and believe in a God/good. One has to put an effort into healing and worshiping, appreciating the Earth. I liken planting a seed to a prayer. One has to walk the walk in their own personal space as well as in amongst the throng. The term "Sunday Baptist" comes to mind ( no offense meant if you happen to be Baptist). A religious man doesn't require acceptance of the masses he continues in his beliefs and actions because he knows it is true to his internal spirt.  There are many stories of individuals swayed into a permaculture interest by seeing what individual efforts bring. In my area we have what started out as a Greenhouse and Chicken Coop tour. I had both along with a Hugel Bed, next year one of the other participants had, yes you guessed it a Hugel Bed. It is now a Greenhouse, Coop, Pond and Garden tour.  This event started in 2006 so it has steadily increased in size, lasts three days and crosses into the next county. My initial small orchard has increased in size and this year the hazels produced nuts. There are at least 10 more Hugel experiments happening. As far as embracing parts of permaculture, one decides to make an effort or stop on the bottom rung of the ladder.  There are people above me and people below me. Someone in a fugue state slows down my climb, I just jump to an adjacent ladder. You have a space 6m x 12m piece of gold, that bottom rung of the ladder. Much more than some and it doesn't sound like it is being optimized, what have you done in your garden today? I picked beets. oh and carrots sweet baby carrots. That came from my effort ignoring my neighbor, getting my hands dirty and putting my money where my mouth is. I don't need societal approval, I can hear the industrial train near me but I'm not on that train. Moving forward? you have to take a step. Have you really started that climb? Is your first post in this thread a serious query? Do you just want a tautological conversation an endless death spiral with out answers? Many here have experience and real time solutions to moving forward. Walk the walk my friend walk the walk do something in the garden.
 
What's brown and sticky? ... a stick. Or a tiny ad.
"Permaculture Now! - Desert or Paradise?" movie by Sepp Holzer
https://permies.com/wiki/137395/Permaculture-Desert-Paradise-movie-Sepp
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