Joshua's and Big Berm's Excavator Adventure

Joshua has never even darkened the door of a Bobcat cab (do those even have a cab?) and needs to make an 8' berm, 150' long, along the property edge.  

Paul is talking in the podcast consultations about "rent an excavator for a day and throw up an 11'" berm.  Easy for you to say, Paul Bunyan, but some of us had to grow up in cities eating our food out of plastic wrappings and watching the excavator operator wistfully through the holes in a chain-link fence.  

In other words, I have absoltely no idea what I'm doing.

I talked to a professional who quoted me $5000 for the job...a little steep.   A jumbo (to my standards) skid steer with 10' lift height would be $1500 for the week, including transport.  40 hours for me to learn how to use a skid steer and hopefully get a 1 foot length of berm built without tipping over.

I realize I will also have to have a lot of wood and brush ready to bury.  Work crew...???  If only it were so simple...

I barely have a chain saw.  Maybe have to hire a neighbor who can help, but my electric one may be enough for taking down small trees and limbing.  

Oh, have I mentioned I live on a sandbox?

So I hope this thread will be a way to help me and future me's to go from zero to 8' berm excavator/or-is-it-skid-steer-I-want? efficacy in a few weeks.

Please bring on the advice.

Howdy Joshua,

Not too long ago, I too have not sat at the controls of heavy machinery and was VERY intimidated at the prospect. I'm more of a book browser than an earth mover but adaptation is the name of the game.

Two strategies.
1. Youtube is a godsend on instructionals to the point that if you know the machine that you will be working with, you can find operating videos for nearly EVERY brand. Older machines might not have an exact video but you are looking for similarities in control setups.
2. I have the distinct pleasure of being friends with farmers and farm workers who always have things to get done. I was thrown into the cab of a bobcat skidsteer when my best friend, brother, and another friend rented a firewood processer and needed someone to keep loading logs. I got a five minute tutorial and was told to "let her rip". Having some folks who have run the equipment before to give constructive critism was a blessing.

You will be nervous when you first sit at the controls, but once you start moving it you will grow confidence. Don't push the machine too far. Move deliberately and smoothly. It is better to take less than more starting out.

I had an excavator come over to dig up my water main. At the end of the day my neighbors 5 year old boy wanted to sit in the seat. The operator (friend of my neighbors and I) sat down in the seat, brought the boy up onto his lap, and let him run the machine and move it. We all thought that the operator was working the controls until the end when he said he didn't touch a thing.

I'm confident in you!

Thanks.  I wish you were closer by and could come help out, I remember you were itching to do more land-based projects.  

I appreciate the vote of confidence.

So questions:

1 skid steer?  In the video that Mike Haasl (flashing the Mike Haasl symbol into the night sky over Gotham City or wherever Mike resides) posted of building hugelkultur on the 8' berm thread there's something I would call a skid steer moving earth.  Wide bucket that is attached at the back of the vehicle, not like a back hoe.  That looks like what i want, but the expert I talked to said he would use an excavator (narrow bucket but his behemoth gets a cubic yard in one scoop with the narrow bucket!).    And in the consult podcasts Paul keeps saying "excavator," which I think means any general earth-moving equipment item inclusive of a skid steer, but I'm not sure.  I guess I can google that.

2) how to push the soil onto the side of the berm to make it steep enough with a skid steer, or if that's just wrong, how to use a narrow bucket to get all that dirt moved in a timely manner?

3) Mulch, poke holes, then broadcast, right?  I have never really been sure.  The mulch seems to want to creep over the holes and smother plantings, but I don't see how else it can really work on a steep slope.  

Thanks!

So, wikipedia definitely defines an excavator as a boom-and-swivel digger, not a skid steer inclusive definition.

There's a lot of overlap with my other thread on how to build a tall berm, but for this current thread i'm going to include the social aspect, getting work crew, forestry, chainsawing lite for getting brush for the project, convincing neighbors to bring us your brush piles, your stumps, your rotting logs yearning to breathe free.

https://permies.com/t/241320/tips-tall-berm-excavator-permaculture

I saw the bat signal but I'm not much of a heavy equipment guy.  I think skid steers (and front end loaders on tractors for that matter) are better when the dirt is loose and you're trying to move or shape it.  I don't think they're good at digging into virgin soil.  

If you're trying to dig up dirt and place it elsewhere, an excavator or back hoe might be better.  

Hi Josh;
I am a heavy equipment guy, although not a "dirt" guy so to speak.
I run large cranes and I mechanic on the rest.

I'm not clear about your project other than it is 150' long and you want to end up 8' tall.
Are you wanting to make a hugle? Are you digging down, then filling with wood and placing the dirt over top?

Hands down an excavator is faster than a bobcat.  A backhoe is ok but being on rubber tires can be limiting.
With a tracked machine there is no getting stuck, you can swing 360 to place the dirt where you want.
With the arm, you can reach out and dig without moving.
They have a small blade to smooth over any lumps.
You are up high so you can see well.
Unlike a bobcat, with a track hoe, there is almost no chance of tipping over.

When shopping to rent a track hoe  (excavator) stay away from the mini machines.
They do tip over and do not have the strength to dig in tough ground (I guess you have sand) you still do not want one.
You do not need a monster machine but you do want a fair size one.
You also want a bucket with a "thumb" even minis usually have these.
With a thumb, you can grab objects (boulders, trees, brush) and place them where you want.

Good luck with your project however you get the job done.

What is the purpose of this Great Wall of Massa?

Thanks Team.  That’s some helpful info.

I’m madly thumbing through my copy of Excavators for Poets which, sadly, hasn’t been written yet, and consulting with an actual farm kid friend, and new questions arise—

to it, is it better to scrape the topsoil under where the berm gonna go first, or use that to build a solid foundation for it? If the topsoil has some roots in it (alfalfa), will that be enough stability to make that foundation? and then how to handle the problem of the skid steer getting stuck on the sand, after we remove the first couple feet of topsoil when  gathering soil for putting on the berm?  And a third possibility has been suggested, using a bulldozer, which I can’t picture, but my friend says that his friend built one that way I think I need to talk to that other friend and ask some more specific questions.  


I’d love to hear someone who’s specifically built one of these weigh in.

I'm studying ponds, excavators, and equipment in general. I rent trenchers all the time and have rented tractors. Also, rented by companies like united rental, sunbelt and others are excavators. I have mentors who teach me how to use tools and equipment but they are getting older and don't have as much time, or energy, to help me anymore. What I did find is a company that will teach you how to use an excavator and let you practice...for a fee. I plan on either working with my mentor for training or renting an "excavator lesson".  

I'm far from an expert, but have some hours experience with a Bobcat (more generically skid steer).  You don't want one of those for this job.  If nothing else, you won't have the reach - they higher you lift the bucket, the closer it gets to you so you will have difficulty depositing the top layer on an 8' pile without it all simply falling down the side of the berm onto you.  Also, they higher you reach with a load, the higher the centre of gravity of the machine, so the possibility of tipping increases.  Depending on the sort of machine (where I worked also had a Mustang with T-handle controls...touchy and many were afraid to use it) and controls, quick movements are not your friend.

Good luck with the project.

Project management has a triple constraint - time, money, and quality.  Pick two (at most).  If you want quality done in the shortest time, spend the money and hire a pro.  The least expensive option is to do it yourself by hand...which would also likely take the most time.  If you want it done right, take care in who you are relying on to get the job done.

while the operator manual might suggest to run the engine at full throttle for optimal performance, might i suggest trying it out a hair above idle at first the get the feel of the controls then move to about 1/3 to 1/2 throttle. This will have the hydraulic pumps flowing slower and making the controls not so touchy. I'm more comfortable with tractors and forklifts but the advise is the same easy on the throttle till you get the hang of it.

I'd have to agree with Thomas' advice. An excavator is by far a more effective tool for moving virgin soil. Skid steers are a bit easier to operate (if you've never operated any earth moving equipment but, not good for digging) I'd say contact a local excavator, explain your situation and see if they'd be willing to give you a hands-on tutorial for a 1 hour fee...It really isn't difficult (assuming you have some degree of hand/eye coordination)...It's a LOT of fun and you'll wonder why you never tried it before.
Once you master the excavator, by all means, give a skid steer a try. They are a blast!
As the ole cowboy once said, "it's all about the time you spend in the saddle."
Best of luck with your project!

Hiya
Where is the soil coming from?
How far do you have to move it?
How nice a profile do you want to look at forever?
If you want to place the soil on top of a pile of brush wouldn't a machine pushing the soil displace the brush in the process?
Three years ago having never driven a digger/excavator/360 before I hired a 2.5ton one for a week for some ditch digging on soggy ground and didn't get stuck, got quite good at ditch digging and had fun.
The following year I hired the same size to dig two ponds, dig the rest of my ditches and double or triple handled the dirt to create two bunds/berms that are about 100 metres long, 4-5 feet high and 6-8 feet wide. This was about the limit of what that 2.5ton machine could reach. I also dug up and extended my driveway, placing and shaping the topsoil created and putting back type 1 stone, tracking it in to compact it, which taught me how hard getting something flat was. I've worked with many digger drivers in the past up to around 30ton machines and the difference between someone who could dig a hole, or create something flat, smooth and to a level, and the few who really are genius's is quite obvious when you watch for a while :)
Last year I hired a 1.5ton 360 that you can jack the tracks out wide for stability or in to fit through a house doorway so small but still stable enough for me. This had nothing like the reach, and what I had previously done with the 2.5 could not have been done without filling in ditches, shifting spoil on and over, then moving it again, much slower and hassle. It drank about half the diesel though! A friend recently bought a small old machine that had levers actually connected to the valves which was hard work and smoky, not fun. But now I have clear ditches, new access points with drainage pipes under, and would be happy to have a go at any other digging other than accurately bottoming out a dig for someone else's wallet to pay for stone or concrete to go on.
I would have hired a bigger 360 to start with but in the UK the 2.5ton plus trailer is about the max a suitably rated car can tow, beyond that I'd have to pay for a truck to deliver. That could have meant hiring a dumper truck too which would fit on the truck at the same time, quicker again even with just me jumping between the two.
I read somewhere that a digger is between 150 and 200 times faster than you with a spade. Life is short :)

Thanks for the replies. I’m gonna read these over again and try and understand exactly what you’re saying versus what I’m imagining from lack of experience.

The berm agenda:  

Top priorities:

1 breaks wind to replace need for irrigation. handles increasingly volatile weather, droughts, or floods, as we’ve been having the past two years.

2 angled steep, so animals don’t get on it (I’m looking at you, Rudolf.  Rudolf! Rudolf leave it! Rudolf Leave it!  Oh #%^$&!!). More than 45°.  Must not be an exit ramp for Rudolf to grt up and jump over the fence.

3 under $5000. Preferably under 2000.  

4 growing space.  Angled toward the sun. Extend the growing season,* replace irrigation *. which I can’t have anyway.

Medium priorities:


One build community.

2, minimize disruption of soil around this site

Three, cost less than 2000

For use only local materials. Be a good example to others of minimizing inputs.

Five, prevent guineas from blowing away when the gusts of 45 to 50 mph.


Where is the soil coming from? I’ve calculated that 40 feet width of soil next to the berm. Can get scooped out and go on top. That should approximately be what needed and beyond.  a lot of it will be filled with wood.

This will leave a big stretch of ground that has no topsoil on it, and it dips down 3 feet. I can live with that. I will fill it with whatever stuff I have, brush, leaves, extra mulch. The sand can grow a little bit of buckwheat, Miraculously enough, especially if the slope isn’t too steep. If it’s possible, I’ll try and grade that sloped toward the pond to help keep that full. The pond has no inlet. Not yet anyway. Long story.  

What is coming from limbs and saplings on the Southfield, brush by that neighbors may be dropping off, some stuff that nobody wants along the highway,  lots of  conifer, but also some oaks.

I think I’m gonna get the world domination gardening for the Hugo, culture micro doc, that might have some more answers to my questions.


The fact is, even if I hire a professional, there’s a lot of work that needs to get done beforehand, to prep the site, and to have it been mulch on top.

A new thought, instead of making one strip 40 feet wide and 3 feet deep, I'll just make it 10 feet wide or something and then get splotches from various other places, so that the landscape is really diversified here. Someone will say why are you getting rid of perfectly level land, and I feel nervous, but sometimes you have to burn the ships behind you.  Also, these "craters" would be great places to build a hugelkultur mound just to the north of it, so that the total slope area exposed to sunlight is that much greater..

The Hugo culture video of the world domination DVD set, two hours and 10 minutes in, has footage of people learning to use an excavator.  

It looks like a Hitachi 120, and when I looked it up, it says it's 26,000 pounds.  

What sort of critter is Rudolph?  Many critters can get up a fairly steep slope.  

I'm suddenly taken back to 1st year engineering - a geological engineering course - cut and fill and such, particularly for roads.  My concern would be the nature of the sandy material.  You may not be able to get it to stay as steep as you want it.  Have you done a soil composition test of the area to see what silt / clay content may exist?  That may enable you to match it up to soil profile documentation to get a better idea of properties and what it may be capable of.

Does anyone else think "Josh and the Big Berm" would be a good title for a movie, or perhaps a children's book?  Little boys seem to like machinery, hence the popularity of Tonka toys.

Rudolf with an F is a dog (LGD). Normally he doesn't do that much damage, but he does want to go up on to things to watch. And we got him a friend to keep him a little occupied, and when the two of them are together, then they tear up the ground a lot. And the hills. I don't wanna have to put up another fence. I suppose I can put another wire around it, since he respects wires.

But he is part cat in that he's very curious about everything.  So if there's no fence or wire, or if a gap opens up, he interprets that as consent.

As for the soil composition, it is a sandbox. They literally mine "Title V sand" for septic systems across the road from me. I know Paul was telling the person who had gravel to build 11 foot berm, so I figure it's possible here, but I don't know if the steepness is. And it's a badge bit under Permaculture Experience according to Mike, so I think it's supposed to be possible for everyone, even if they live on sandbox, but that might not be the case.  

Making a sand castle is pretty easy, but having it fall down is also.

I'm doing an experimental mini berm by hand, sandwiched between two pallets so that I can limit it to 2 feet length. I think it's working OK, we'll see how it goes over the next few rainy days.

Hi Joshua

In central Maine, they often have an Ag show in the spring.  
The "toys" are fun to go see /drool over and the folks are always ready with answers to any kind of agricultural questions.
The last few years they added a new attraction - a tractor/skidsteer/excavator video trainer!
If you can find the local Ag / Tractor show, you might find someone that can 1) give you first hand advice and 2) let you try the trainer.
YouTube is, indeed, a wonderful training method - but hands on (without being able to destroy anything) is hard to beat.

Good Luck and have fun!

Asking where is the soil coming from was to see if for instance it's already in a nice pile, loose and close, making a skid steer possible. Digging down for it would make a machine that digs better I would think (no experience of skid steers). A 180 or backhoe might work if that's available and cheap but would take longer than a 360.

Does the berm all need to be "topsoil"? So remove topsoil from where your source is, dig up subsoil, make berm with subsoil, cover in topsoil to help grow something (with roots eventually retaining your "angle of repose"). Cover the source area with a bit of the topsoil so something will grow back more easily, or use a pond liner to make a pond out of a more hole type hole, using the topsoil remaining around that for planting and habitat?

I can't see the slope staying steep enough to keep any animal off. You could put a brash hedge around it? Live willows pushed in at 1 foot centres all around would grow pretty quick and be hard to get through, especially if you push them in at 45 degrees?? Like this? Two rows even?
https://www.thewillowbank.com/living-willow-structure-kits-for-sale/willow-fedge-screens/