Americans, please don't use 2 letter abbreviations for your state!

greg mosser wrote:... i decided against using my state name at all. i think bioregions are more applicable in permaculture than political boundaries.

You might be right, Greg.
But I think it's difficult to describe in what 'bioregion' I am in such a way everyone here will understand.

Christopher Weeks wrote:I'm curious, do random non-UScians know that our states, by name, are part of the US? If I tell rando international folks that I live in Minnesota is it usually more meaningful than saying I live in MN? (And I now live closer to Canada than I do to any of the other four states where I've previously resided, so it doesn't surprise me that Jay, specifically, knows Minnesota, but I wonder more generally.)

Minnesota is that place across from Thunder Bay which also likes Hockey and has lakes and fishing. I think it has a lot of state forests?  I've generally heard about it in media. I'd say I can probably name a stereotype or impression and a general geographic region and climate for most US states.

MN is... Probably a US State, since someone assumes I know what it is. Erm.  I dunno, Michigan? Montana?

It's pretty common to learn US states either formally in school, or just through cultural osmosis. I recall labelling state maps at one point, and having competitions in the car with my dad, naming as many as I could (we did this for countries and capitals, too).

I am guilty of using provincial abbreviations. I've lived or worked in BC, AB, ON, NL, and NU. Have driven through/stayed in SK, MB, and QC. Would love to visit YT and NT someday, and the Maritimes. But they're really not helpful for communication even with other Canadians!

Was it the book 1984 that was reworking the language to make it "better"?

Will the people of france be required to speak only english - so that english speaking folks can understand them?

The two letter abbreviations are klunky even for people in the us.  At the same time, people one or two states over probably recognize it.  So if you say "MT" regional folks know, and people far away don't.

Somebody could say they are in España.  Most americans have no idea where that is.  Even if that same person says "spain" they now think it is somewhere in europe.  

I think we need to allow for some klunky in all the languages.  

paul wheaton wrote:Was it the book 1984 that was reworking the language to make it "better"?

Yeah that's newspeak. I see it all the time in English. Like changing 'plumber' to 'licensed enclosed cylindrical flow technician'. Or whatever. Usually taking something that already makes sense and making it sound more important or technical than it is or trying really hard to not offend anyone.

I guess MT is actually newspeak for Montana. I think people knew what Montana was before the post office needed MT.

The so-called "United" States of "America", and the so-called "United" Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (UK can be confused with e.g. Ukraine), are probably both problematic abbreviations then.

I live in the Midlands of England, distinct in climate, history, culture, language, governance, law and more from Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland.  

I guess more accurate and precise locations are helpful!

Ac Baker wrote:The so-called "United" States of "America", and the so-called "United" Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (UK can be confused with e.g. Ukraine), are probably both problematic abbreviations then.

I live in the Midlands of England, distinct in climate, history, culture, language, governance, law and more from Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland.  

I guess more accurate and precise locations are helpful!

It was only after I posted my comments here I realised I used the abbreviations 'USA' and 'UK'. UK for United Kingdom was an abbreviation I learned from the internet (maybe even from the Permies forum), before I only knew GB, for Great Britain. Maybe you can explain the difference between those two?

Yes, I agree it's most useful to tell about your region in terms of climate, soil, culture, etc. when it's in discussion on a permaculture topic.

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote: UK for United Kingdom was an abbreviation I learned from the internet (maybe even from the Permies forum), before I only knew GB, for Great Britain. Maybe you can explain the difference between those two?

This might help, or maybe it will just confuse you all even more...

We're just living the dream...

Burra Maluca wrote:

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote: UK for United Kingdom was an abbreviation I learned from the internet (maybe even from the Permies forum), before I only knew GB, for Great Britain. Maybe you can explain the difference between those two?

This might help, or maybe it will just confuse you all even more...

Thank you. To me it is clear now. Before I didn't know that Northern Ireland wasn't part of Great Britain.

How many people know which state is bigger than Texas?

Texas is 695,000 square kilometers.

When comparing things, it's important to remember that the further north you go, the more the Mercator Projection makes land masses *look* bigger than they are.

I know that BC (British Columbia), Canada is 944,735 square kilometers, so close to 1/3 bigger. Nunavut, Quebec, Northwest Territories and Ontario are all bigger than BC, so therefore, also bigger than Texas.

Our three "Prairie" Provinces are all a bit smaller than Texas, and the rest drop off rapidly down to tiny Prince Edward Island at a mere 5,660 square km and at great risk of shrinking if we get much sea level rise or more huge storms.

School told me Alaska is the biggest us state by landmass and water (assuming the 3 mile rule).  The largest by a lot.

I never actually looked it up so I don't know if this is yet another lie school gave me.  

They never told us what the second largest was.

What are the...
Eastern most
Western most
Southern most
And northern most states in the usa?

It's a fun riddle to pass the time, as most people where I live, never need to know it.  


Spoiler

Spoiler


Hint.  It's only two states to answer all four questions.

Texas is the second largest state (the largest is Alaska). I've heard that Texans like to talk about their state being the largest (because it is the largest in the contiguous USA). But, I don't know if Texans do, or if that's just people picking on Texas. The Texans I know really like Texas and think it's awesome (which is fair. Most people like where they live and think it's awesome), but none of them have never talked about it being the largest state.  Regardless, it seems like a bit of a running gag at this point.

Which is the largest Canadian Province? And why don't I know this? All I "know" is that Quebec apparently wants to be it's own country sometimes. But, I don't think that's because they're larger than the other provinces (it's because they're more French than British, right?)...

I guess the fact that I don't know what Canada's largest province is, shows that it doesn't make sense that other countries don't know the USA's states. I don't know a single one of Mexico's states, let alone any other country's states/provinces/counties/etc. Surely China and India have something like states/provinces...but I don't know them. If I don't know any of those things, I can't expect someone in another country to know what/where Washington state is.

When I was in school, Northwest Territories won for size, both landmass and actual territory.  It's now two territories so I don't know which is biggest now.

If we go by province alone, it's going to be Ontario or Quebec.  Probably Quebec. (Checked with google and yes, my memory is right.  Although google seems to say it's based on landmass)

r ranson wrote: Probably Quebec. (Checked with google and yes, my memory is right.  Although google seems to say it's based on landmass)

When I was wandering around the internet, they seemed to consider "land" and "water". Considering how much of Canada is "water", if your purpose of defining the size of the land, is land we can stand on, there is some logic in dividing things this way.

That said, having flown over southern BC, there's a lot of land that is "very pointy" to quote a Canadian music group, and wouldn't be easy to walk on or build a house on. Canada is very big, but it also has many areas which are better left for food forests than cities or towns.

Fascinating...I would add to the topic line:
Australians also please don't use two-letter state abbreviations... :-)

At least not when referring to WA...Western Australia, that is. Two of my virtual colleagues are in Australia, one in the self-same WA, in Perth area. There's no Perth in WAshington state, USA, though there is a Perth in NeVada, USA, and in NewYork, USA.

And for VIC, the abbreviation may be better.. spelling it out may leave one wondering, is it the state in AUS or the city in BC, CAN?

For country names there is an ISO standard for three-letter abbreviations that are unambiguous: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-3

As to the metric system...it's theoretically been the preferred system of weights and measures for United States trade and commerce since 1975, according to United States law (the Metric Conversion Act of that year). The scientific and medical domains use it almost exclusively, among others - our money system is metric, and we use the metric second. But not USA society in general - not everyday stuff like fuel, groceries, hardware, furniture, building materials, a vast variety of everyday objects, etc.

My theory is that the USA failed to convert because we tried to be too 'nice' about it. The idea was "a carefully planned transition to the principal use of the metric system over a decade." (quoting Wikipedia).
Those of you old enough will remember that questionably designed effort - signs everywhere in both systems, causing both confusion and extra expense; lots of politely encouraging PSAs (oops, another acronym, Public Service Announcements) telling people how to do the math...and that's what killed it, the timeline and the math.

Other countries mostly just said "on this date we switch" and everything changed, the cubits and rods and furlongs and pints and tablespoons and drams went away, the meters and liters came in, and within a couple weeks or a month at most everyone was used to it.
But ten years? And math? Doomed from the start.
The huge irony with the math part is that it's waaaaaay easier in the metric system.

Love this, glad we are focusing more globally.

When I lived abroad, I learned to introduce myself as being from the Southeast USA. Broad and also specific enough to give people an out if they just wanted to know my country, and an in if they knew about our legendary Cajun food

American is a misnomer as anyone from North and South America is an American technically. My Latino friends would get a bit irritated when I introduced myself as American out of habit.

Also, LA is very contextual. You have to listen to their accent to infer whether it's Louisiana or Los Angeles they're referring to.

r ranson wrote:What are the...
Eastern most
Western most
Southern most
And northern most states in the usa?

It's a fun riddle to pass the time, as most people where I live, never need to know it.  


Spoiler

Spoiler


Hint.  It's only two states to answer all four questions.

Non USA here, but Alaska & Puerto Rico?  

Puerto Rico is a territory, not a state - I'm assuming the original riddle-poser meant states only?
If we are including territories, it would be Rose Atoll, American Samoa.

For the extreme points of the USA, Hints here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extreme_points_of_the_United_States

There are a few tricks here...Alaska (the Aleutian island chain part) crosses the line from west to east longitude, so it is both the western-most and eastern-most state (sorry, Maine!).
And also the northern-most.
A hat trick for Alaska!

Here's a comedian's take on how the 2-letter US State abbreviations came to be.

John Schinnerer wrote:Puerto Rico is a territory, not a state ...

To me, it is not about whether it is a state or territory that uses a two letter abbreviation.

This is about letting the forum member know where you are.

Google tells me that the abbreviation for Puerto Rico is PR so for forum use you would use Puerto Rico not PR so folks will know how to answer your questions.

Easy Peesy ...

Just curious,
Is FL /or FLA understood unanimously? 🙄

Dustin Waller wrote:Just curious,
Is FL /or FLA understood unanimously? 🙄

I don't know what they mean.  From this conversation, I guess it's somewhere in the usa, not on the west coast.  

Dustin Waller wrote:Just curious,
Is FL /or FLA understood unanimously? 🙄

Unlikely. I'm assuming you are referring to the US state of Florida, but is my assumption correct?
Also, I get the 2 letter abbreviations for Alabama and Alaska confused all the time. I'm just lucky that I don't know anyone who lives in either state.
I think we citizens of the world should simply abandon the two-letter US State abbreviations altogether, in favor of spelling the WHOLE state name on the envelope.

Wouldn't that be nice.  

The number parcels I've had end up delayed by going to California is ridiculous. One shipping company uses both international 2 letter codes and usa state 2 letter codes. And then confuses itself.  Instead of traveling from one side of the city to the other for next day delivery, my parcel gets a week vacation in California.  Then the company tries to charge me brokerage and duty (twice).  It's a real pain.

r ransom wrote:Wouldn't that be nice.  

The number parcels I've had end up delayed by going to California is ridiculous. One shipping company uses both international 2 letter codes and usa state 2 letter codes. And then confuses itself.  Instead of traveling from one side of the city to the other for next day delivery, my parcel gets a week vacation in California.  Then the company tries to charge me brokerage and duty (twice).  It's a real pain.

R. Ransom, Let me tell you a story.  

I have had a lot of success by digging around to find the Apex predator of the companies that bring me pain. The trick is to find the corporation that owns whatever bullroar company owns the mopes who are ignoring you, or otherwise making your life unmanageable.   There is nothing more dynamic and satisfying than having the holding company's CEO's office calling the president of the company that giving you s**t to dress them down for dissing a constituent.

My best story is to tell you that for 20 fricking years, the company that pretended to "manage" my pension, sent letters to me to tell me how great they were doing for me. But when I called the number they had in all their letters, the CSR (customer service rep) response was rude, abrupt, and disinterested. As far as they were concerned, I was not their client and I did not have an account.

It took a little time to find the parent company, and to write a terse letter to the CEO of the international holding company telling him (it's always a him, isn't it?) that if, in fact they did not owe me the money that they continued to tell me was in my pension account, then that they could possible be overstating the amount they needed to hold in reserve for future pensioners. This is a big deal for large corporations that need to hold monies in reserve to pay to its employees in the future -- it's money they cannot invest in current expansions or projects. They can invest in very conservative assets, but not much more. In short, I appealed to their greed.

I told him I was enough of a data manager that I understood that my account was not an anomaly -- that it represented a small but significant number of accounts that, for his company could represent quite a bit of cash being held in reserve that could be put to use today. I was rude, abrupt, callous, and very disrespectful to whatever company they hired or department they used to manage their employee retirement accounts. Basically, I told him to "man-up" and figure out WTF was happening with the mopes he or his minions hired to manage the retirement accounts.  The letter included the time and date and the fact that the last CSR that I spoke with not only told me I did not have an account, but also was unwilling to tell me how to identify him or his location. It included the "Oh yay! Aren't we doing a swell job for you," original letter and the disrespect and possible abuse I experienced with on the telephone with the CSR.

I was not out of control, but I was very angry at the treatment from a international company that I worked for in 2 countries for 10 years. I wrote the letter, spent a few days editing and document it, then sent it registered to the overseas corporate office.  Imagine my surprise when weeks later, I got a mailed response from the HQ office of the CEO. He assigned one of his, well, someone who reported directly to him, told me that indeed I did have a retirement account with them and added a specific person in the US to call. Given that I have never personally met the CEO of ANY company I've worked for, this was a big deal.

I called the person he mentioned in the email and very quickly transferred the money into an account I could manage directly.

Here, my laboriously written bla bla bla can be reduced to an example of the Squeaky Wheel Syndrome, and possibly a grand Winston Churchill quote: "Never give in. Never, never, never, never—in nothing, great or small, large or petty—never give in, except to convictions of honour and good sense." delivered in a speech to Harrow School in October 1941 - during possibly some of the darkest days for the UK during  WWII.

I will be cheerful in helping you write a finely crafted letter to the nettlesome company that has yet to figure out international shipping.  As an American expatriate, I am uniquely qualified to re-write and/or edit your letter to them. If they continue to be unresponsive, I can help you find other companies that can provide the products or services you need without the crapola you are currently forced to endure. I think I am well versed and can help you tame the beast in the company you are currently working with and/or find a company that can provide what you need with far less hassle.

We all need more peace in 2026. Let's start here.
Happy New Year, everyone.
Barbara




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