Americans, please don't use 2 letter abbreviations for your state!

I realize that you are all doing it on auto pilot, but I do not live in the USA, nor have I ever been given more than the usual basic history of your country.

Permies does have an official policy about not using acronyms for the sake of ESL (English as a second language) members. See - I get it - we use acronyms all the time. It hard to remember that there are many people who aren't going to understand their meaning.

You have *8* states that start with the letter M, and another 8 that start with N.

So please, help me out here. I'm sure I'm not the only member struggling with this issue.

In return, I'll try not to tell you that here in BC it's raining, but in Ont they've got snow.

American here and I had to write out Missouri because MO will not stick in my brain.

Canada is much easier but I would like to see Saskatchewan spelled in full anytime anyways.

That quite alright Jay, I know both British Columbia, as well as Ontario. Sincerly Brian from Michigan.

I buy a lot of specialty organic-type foods, and although I am an American very used to state abbreviations, I am always trying to figure out if my CA product is from Canada or California.

Gosh, I know the feeling.

When I was shipping a lot, I had this trouble so much as the internal country code is two letters.  

CA - canada
IL - Israel
AL - Albania
And so on.  It made for some interesting shipping issues.


In the end, using only two letter abbreviation for a place in a global community punishes the writer most of all.  Over the years, I've noticed this gets significantly fewer views or engagement. I've gotten jaded over the years and just assumed these users want to limit their audience.  Unless it's an amazing thread that isn't getting the love it deserves due to ambiguous communication.

good point Jay!
State abbreviations are difficult even here for us who grew up here.
I occasionally receive mail using AK (alaska) rather than AR (arkansas) in the address...everything else is correct so it still gets here eventually.

I know what BC and ONT stand for though😊...even CA which is confusing as that's also California....and AB....you don't have nearly so many as we do.

I would love fewer abbreviations in general.

There are alot more American's than USers. North, South, Central, all of it.

I don't know what else to call USers but that name fits good for me. Could change the title of this thread and it could have multiple meanings.

Les Frijo wrote:There are a lot more American's than USers. North, South, Central, all of it.

I don't know what else to call USers but that name fits good for me. Could change the title of this thread and it could have multiple meanings.

I soooo... agree! I would love to use "USers", but I was afraid it would be considered impolite, and Canadians tend to avoid that. We get enough insults thrown our way, and I don't feel reciprocating with other insults is the way to improve the situation.

r ranson wrote:

In the end, using only two letter abbreviation for a place in a global community punishes the writer most of all.  Over the years, I've noticed this gets significantly fewer views or engagement. I've gotten jaded over the years and just assumed these users want to limit their audience.

Again, I agree. Why should I bother to read someone's response if they're going to make it hard for me to understand?

I did say this was something we *all* need to work on. It is often done without thinking. I think it's pretty funny that Judith occasionally gets mail meant for Alaska - I would have thought your postal codes would have prevented that?

  think it's pretty funny that Judith occasionally gets mail meant for Alaska - I would have thought your postal codes would have prevented that?  

Jay, it is mail meant for me....the sender put the wrong abbreviation...it's happened a few times.  The mail system here is pretty slow and iffy anyway so mistakes make it even worse.

I suppose USA is out then? and United States of America seems like too much at the moment...I might just try for something less defining in this political season🫤

I keep reading USers as 'users'...or was that intended?

Wait, does that mean that my "I love Maine" mug is not funny to Canadians???

Judith Browning wrote:
I suppose USA is out then? and United States of America seems like too much at the moment...I might just try for something less defining in this political season🫤

I keep reading USers as 'users'...or was that intended?

Yes, USians might be less contentious but lacks the clever wordplay that also includes everyone in the title in spelling out their geographical location. The whole abbreviation thing must have started with the post offices in the first place. You might need another line to fit North Carolina depending on what city.

Co-opting American for The Untied States only has always been obnoxious to me. I've been using Mericans in real life but I don't think people appreciate it.

Middle North Americans seems newspeak enough to maybe work and sound more inclusive. Stated Americans? Mexico has states too though.

USA is fine for the country but what to call it's people that is respectful of the rest of the world too.

Greg Martin wrote:Wait, does that mean that my "I love Maine" mug is not funny to Canadians???

I love that!

How about just United States?
Without an abbreviation there either?
I agree that 'America' is not clear.

This is a good discussion....think globally!

I regularly forget what state has what abbreviation, and I am from the United States!

I'm spoiled that New York is recognized as "N" "Y commonly. You don't hear Vermont calling themselves the "V""T". Sounds kind of clinical!

Greg Martin wrote:Wait, does that mean that my "I love Maine" mug is not funny to Canadians???

ME is also Montenegro
;)

I read USers as users aka members of the forum.

The title says it all.

America could be North America or South America.  Both big places with very different climates.

How can we help someone planting in the US or America if we don't know the state.

I am in sunny Texas which say it all almost ...

You have raised a few topics here.
There are a number of "United States of xxxxxxxxx" around the world.
- Mexico,
- Brazil
- Columbia
- Belgium
United States of Indonesia, name of the country from 1949 to 1950
United States of the Ionian Islands, former British protectorate from 1815 to 1864
United State of Saurashtra, an Indian state between 1948 and 1956
United States of Stellaland, a short-lived political union of Goshen and Stellaland proper in southern Africa from 1883 to 1885
United State of Travancore and Cochin, the former Indian state of Travancore-Cochin between 1949 and 1950
United States of Venezuela, from 1864 to April 15, 1953
United Arab States, confederation of the United Arab Republic and North Yemen between 1958 and 1961
United States of Central America

Secondly using the term North America  to describe the country America wipes out Canada.
And the use of "America" alone cant really be confused with

America could be North America or South America.  Both big places with very different climates.

because 'America' is usually considered the 'United Staes of America" I think, please correct me if not.

...because 'America' is usually considered the 'United Staes of America" I think, please correct me if not

Only for those within the boundaries of the usa.  The rest of the two continents have a different point of view.

I'm having the urge to describe where I live as....
"I'm a human being in the Ozarks, Boston Mountains within that space above Mexico and below Canada".
😏

85% of the traffic to permies is from the us.

I live in the other LA, i.e., Louisiana. Once a friend was sending me a package from Malaysia. I provided the address with the state abbreviation. My friend thought it would be helpful for the courier if he spelled out LA, so he sent the package to Baton Rouge, Los Angeles... Thankfully, it arrived anyway. I guess that's what postal codes are for. I wonder why we even need to write out the city and state.

The post office told me if you have the full usa postal code (five digit dash more digits), all you need is family name.  I tried it and it didn't work, but stret address, full postalcode, and U.S.A. works.

I think state designations, or mountain ranges or bioregions, make more sense on Permies than high-level governmental boundaries.  When I am in the forest and walk back into town, I feel as if I am entering a foreign country.

Greg Martin wrote:Wait, does that mean that my "I love Maine" mug is not funny to Canadians???

It's hilarious as a "Gotcha" joke for most everyone. If you'd asked me what postal abbreviation Maine had, I wouldn't have thought it'd be an "ME," because you don't even pronounce the "E"! I think most people don't know "ME" stands for Maine, which makes it even funnier!

Timothy Norton wrote:I'm spoiled that New York is recognized as "N" "Y commonly. You don't hear Vermont calling themselves the "V""T". Sounds kind of clinical!

My state stinks because it shares a name with the nation's capital, "Washington, D.C." Apparently, we were going to be called Columbia, but they ditched that because they didn't want to get confused with "District of Columbia." That sure didn't work out! I almost wonder if referring to myself as living in WA is better than "Washington." I usually just always say "Washington State" and hope people know that's different than the US Capitol.

Hmmmm, maybe we should just rename our state "Seattle." Then Seattle can be "Seattle, Seattle" like New York is "New York, New York." I'm sure those living in the eastern half of my state won't mind....

Judith Browning wrote:I suppose USA is out then? and United States of America seems like too much at the moment...I might just try for something less defining in this political season🫤

I never know what to refer to us as. USA seems the only really accurate term, but, like you said, it seems a bit much right now. That term seems to have become politicized. And, it doesn't give us a way to refer to ourselves. I'm a USof A-er? Our only real way to refer to ourselves is to say "I'm American"...but so is everyone else who lives in North and South America. But, honestly, some of those people might not want to be grouped in with those that live in the USA. Goodness, many who live in the USA claim to be Canadians when they travel abroad.

Nicole, down at the South end of Washington State we have a double ambiguity. We get to say, "I'm from Vancouver, not BC, Washington, not DC."

Jeremy VanGelder wrote:Nicole, down at the South end of Washington State we have a double ambiguity. We get to say, "I'm from Vancouver, not BC, Washington, not DC."

I can imagine! I always thought how weird it was that when I'm driving south, I'm driving toward Vancouver. And when I'm driving north, I'm driving toward Vancouver. It sure gets confusing!

I read this evening that Washington Irving wanted to call it Appalachia or Alleghenia. Which might have worked then, but these days it might be confusing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_Mountains?wprov=sfti1#Etymology

i didn’t realize until today that people might think i was in new caledonia! though i suspect many people may not realize the existence of new caledonia! i’ll change my location soon…

edited to add: i decided against using my state name at all. i think bioregions are more applicable in permaculture than political boundaries.

But Greg, McHale's Navy went to New Caledonia all the time!
Doesn't everyone know this???

i just read there are travel advisories about new caledonia, due to recent civil unrest. maybe mchale’s navy should be happy that they got cancelled in ‘66…

I grant you that it is confusing.  

And it is confusing that there are so many creeks that have the exact same name.  Just in montana there are many unique creeks named "trout creek".



It's a bit like the debate about the metric system.  Currently, in the US we use both.  (the other one is called "Imperial").  Frankly, I far prefer miles/feet/inches ...  and I so prefer Fahrenheit that it takes me time to think of rough conversions.  People argue that it is too hard to do the conversion math.  My response is that I pretty much never convert miles to feet, so I don't care.

For non-US persons:  how do you feel about a metric clock?  Would you be better off?  Would you lose some of your culture?  I'm pretty sure that having a metric calendar will never happen, but it just feels like our calendars are on the chopping block.


Non-US peeps feel it is ridiculous that we don't switch to how they measure stuff.  I kinda like it that we seem a bit ridiculous to those folks.  


I live in montana.  I usually prefer to write out "montana" rather than "mt".  Usually.  I love the name "montana".  I like the idea that people know I live in montana.  If I am reading a book or watching a movie and they pine for montana, I have a strong "fuckin-A!" feeling.  Montana is great.





To the whole thing with the two letter abbreviations.  

If somebody says "BC" I think they mean british columbia.  If they say "vancouver" I am thinking of the canadian city, or island, or maybe the town just north of portland, oregon.  

Portland could be in oregon or maine.  

WA is washington state and DC is nation's capitol.

No matter how much you try to convert us to metric (or being exact in our location) we will resist!  


I take it that somebody asked a question ...    maybe they said "will sunchokes be awesome in AL?"  ...  and, rather than requiring that person to convert to metric, I think this is an invitation to activate the art of communication.  "Is AL a friend of yours?  Or is one of those "in a box with a fox" riddles?"


You seek efficiency.  Which is admirable.  I seek efficiency too.  I also want art and culture.  And sometimes those two conflict with each other.  At those times, i make the best of it.

Norman Maclean: "The world is full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the further one gets from Missoula, Montana."

John Steinbeck: "I am in love with Montana. For other states I have admiration, respect, recognition, even some affection, but with Montana it is love, and it's difficult to analyze love when you're in it."





I just finished reading "Sun House" where the most ultimate place in the world to be is near missoula, montana.

It would be a tough habit to change for the 85% Americans on these forums accustomed to using the US state abbreviations in our almost everyday life.

Due to the forum demographic, it may make more sense to spell out a country if it has the same abbreviation as a US state or just trust that the post context will be enough for folks to understand. I have never seen the abbreviation ME and thought of anything other than Maine and even that takes a second to remember.

One thing I've noticed is that if words are spelled out I instantly know what words are being conveyed. Once abbreviations etc. enter the mix I now feel like I have to work harder for understanding. Kinda like I'm now working for the writer. First thing I think when I see ME in an address is Mebraska. Then I remember it's Maine. I just lost a second or two of brain power.

I'm curious, do random non-UScians know that our states, by name, are part of the US? If I tell rando international folks that I live in Minnesota is it usually more meaningful than saying I live in MN? (And I now live closer to Canada than I do to any of the other four states where I've previously resided, so it doesn't surprise me that Jay, specifically, knows Minnesota, but I wonder more generally.)

Christopher Weeks wrote:I'm curious, do random non-UScians know that our states, by name, are part of the US? If I tell rando international folks that I live in Minnesota is it usually more meaningful than saying I live in MN? (And I now live closer to Canada than I do to any of the other four states where I've previously resided, so it doesn't surprise me that Jay, specifically, knows Minnesota, but I wonder more generally.)

Do you mean like Georgia state could be confused with the Georgia country kind of thing?

For many years I had a web domain that ended with .mn because I thought it was cool to have for Minnesota. That went away at some point and now it's for Mongolia.

Here's a page with 2 letter country abbreviations
https://www.willmaster.com/blog/misc/country-name-abbreviations.php

Les, that 2 letter country acronym / abbreviation list is interesting.
I remember the early days of programing where memory was very expensive, so any abbreviation was attempted.
I wonder if that list was compiled then because many of the names abbreviation are hopeless.

Ooh, what a long thread this is. Sorry I didn't read all comments.
I want to say 'thank you' to the topic starter. I live in the Netherlands, Western Europe. When I was at school (ages ago) I probably learned all states of the USA. But no abbreviations.
When I read such a two-letter code I pretend I didn't see it, because I don't know at all what it means. If it is important for me to know ... I ask what they mean.

BTW (By The Way) and other abbreviations often I don't know neither. In general I prefer everything to be written out in complete words.

And then I saw a discussion on saying 'Americans' when it's about  people from the USA only ... Yes, in fact my husband was 'American' too: born and raised on the Caribbean island of Curaçao (Netherlands Antilles). America is much larger than only the USA. If I remember well I learned at school about three parts: North America (USA and Canada together), Central America (from Mexico to Panama, and all Caribbean islands) and South America (Brasil, Argentina and lots of other countries).

paul wheaton wrote:...
It's a bit like the debate about the metric system.  Currently, in the US we use both.  (the other one is called "Imperial").  Frankly, I far prefer miles/feet/inches ...  and I so prefer Fahrenheit that it takes me time to think of rough conversions.  People argue that it is too hard to do the conversion math.  My response is that I pretty much never convert miles to feet, so I don't care.

For non-US persons:  how do you feel about a metric clock?  Would you be better off?  Would you lose some of your culture?  I'm pretty sure that having a metric calendar will never happen, but it just feels like our calendars are on the chopping block.


Non-US peeps feel it is ridiculous that we don't switch to how they measure stuff.  I kinda like it that we seem a bit ridiculous to those folks.  
...

Hi Paul. Not only people in the USA use the 'non-metric' system, also older people in the UK (and on youtube).

The metric system was all I knew for the first part of my life, so it is as 'automatic' to me as the 'imperial' system is to you.
And the analog clock, with numbers 1 to 12 and two hands going round is 'automatic' to me too (you know, I am old). If I wake up in the middle of the night and I see those two hands, I know what time it is. But when there's a 'digital' clock with numbers ... I first need to think.

But I don't think it is ridiculous people use different measurements, clocks, calendars, temperatures or letters (and others ways of writing) than the ones I'm used to. If I don't know what they mean there's the internet that helps me. Or I can ask, that's what a forum is for, isn't it?