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pollinator
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@Paul W: "A few people have told me that they are doing this as a publicity stunt.  Create drama - drama gets more youtube views than anything."

Publicity can backfire....moreso if it is peddling negativity.  YouTube is a contemporary popular format, but like the 8-track and VHS not as enduring as the tenets and goals of permaculture.  Being a home-body, don't know if I will ever venture to a PDC.  But one thing I *now* know after watching that video, is that I would probably rather visit Wheaton labs than the alternative.  That's where negative publicity will get you if not thoughtful.

@Julia Winter: "There might be a reason those two live off grid in the woods with just their kids."

For all of the lip-service to "sanitation" and "safety" in that video, why did I want so badly to take a shower when it was over?  Kinda feel for 'the kids', actually....
 
pollinator
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 I was pretty keen that I only wanted forums for talking about stuff I like the way I like to talk about stuff.  



The forums have gotten much bigger and you have other things that are probably more interesting to you at this point than reading. every. post. and stating the Paul Position. This is a healthy way to expand. You are on to the next thing. BUT you still have the right to hijack a posting. You hijacked one that I was on. IT IS YOUR SITE! So you get to define permaculture your way, and if you decide to throw in on something it is your perogative.  If I really feel strongly enough about wood chips I would start my own forums or something but I sure won't bitch that you said something on your own forum. To me that would be weird. I didn't go to your PDC (although I absolutely would have if I had time to do it) but I would understand that it is on your property, you set the thing up, you arranged for teachers you endorsed (bitching lineup BTW), and you figured out how to fund it through your existing infrastructure. A+. I don't suggest other people don't have a role, but ultimately someone is responsible or no one is responsible. You are that someone, and the ego pay does not compensate for the ass pain. They can put on their own PDC if they want to.

This is reminiscent of one of my jobs (doing job X) where someone I worked with as an underling told me "I could have done X." To which I answered, "well you didn't, so I don't know how to prove or disprove your statement."

I honestly wonder if you were just the whipping boy for some other issue going on with them as you think. Not to defend them, but most couples where one is enough of a psychopath to generate that kind of drama are basically a canoe and an outrigger- a codependent narcissistic relationship. I just cant see them making it this far in that scenario. But I am not a psychologist.

I sincerely hope you will make amends, it really is frustrating that kingdom-building is such a contact sport. But I also realize that may not happen. Some friends of mine are unfortunately divorcing. She told me either I can be friends with him or her. I told her since she brought it up, I would accept her calls but would no longer contact her. If she needs my assistance I will gladly help. But the one asking is generally running the power play.


 
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I saw the video and jeez do they like to use the word integrity as do so many others who commented to congratulate them on how full of it they are.....integrity that is
If they seriously thought their kids were in danger, they would have just left immediately.  That would have shown integrity.   They could have explained why they left early in their videos and it would be understandable. But what they actually did is to put it kindly 'strange'.  But it will get them someYouTube views which appears to be the driver in this scenario and it also got them an unsubscribe from me.

They arrived with Nick knowing virtually nothing about Permaculture and they left 2 weeks later full of themselves and apparently knowing far more than Paul himself.  So one positive Paul can take from this is that the teaching was obviously top notch!
 
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 -  a video response by another YouTuber to the response I got from Esther on the comments I've made on her video.
 
pollinator
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In every case of someone telling me how much integrity they have, I have found the opposite to be true.  If you have it, you won't have to tell people.
 
pollinator
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One would have to be purposefully ignore every part of Paul's vast empire in order to be ignorant of his veiws and personality. Really, he takes pains to declare both to the world.

I've have had occasion to leave intolerable situations and eject from my domain intolerable persons.
I've also had people flee my prescence,or remove me from theirs.
It seems you did not eject them.
I think I would have.
It seems they did not leave early. I think I would have,if I had similar complaints.

I love this site,but the conditions for being here ,or at the lab are made clear to anyone who cares to know.
If only most relationships were made so clear.

Your deal with them- not clear enough.
Not that being more explicit would have necessarily prevented hostilities, but it would have removed a pretext.

I appreciate your sharing this here.
It's like going to one's favorite bar and seeing another patron pitching a fit. Not my business, but I still like to know what's up. Human nature I suppose.
 
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Been trying to follow the drama...unfortunate biznez. Bottom line from where I sit - You put yourself out there to try to accommodate someone during a busy time, extra generous it seems to me. The favor was returned in the form of pushing the boundaries, lack of humility for a host and then holding a grudge that evolved into more drama and then the cherry youtube vid just puts a ! on the further seeming need for drama and justification. Clash of perspective, expectations and personalities. Coming to live for two weeks at any community is challenging. It goes way better when everybody is as humble as possible, pitches in for all and makes every effort to minimize drama, even at the cost of having to swallow it sometimes. Even though we pay to be at the PDCs or similar hands on intensives, I still see it as being hosted which requires respectful interactions. The very first 2-3 pushes on the boundary of acceptable behavior already seemed to demonstrate a lack of awareness as a visitor and student. Ungraceful and especially regrettable that it gets lumped into care for people in a negative context. Smells like bad wine.

Frustrating stuff Paul, I add my voice of support and wish you a speedy, smooth jettison of the issue from your being. I also hope you don't over compensate in any way next year. Sweet that you have all these threads you can go back and read if ever in re-doubt about perspectives. Onward! =)
 
master steward
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William Bronson wrote:It seems you did not eject them.
I think I would have.



They were supposedly doing a bit of PR for me.  Which seemed to be going fine until the last video.  

I got the message that they abhor my presence, so I steered clear and they made videos about the lovely people here.  I don't need any more press for me, but I do like the idea that people learn more about PDCs and this PDC in particular.   I think we had a world class lineup of instructors.  And it seemed that they were holding up their end of the deal.  Good!  They make good videos, I steer clear and get what I want out of the bargain.   I will simply choose to not work with them in the future.  Easy peasy.
 
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I just watched the video by the Fouch couple. It is the only video by the Fouch couple that I will have ever watched.

The person with integrity is Paul Wheaton who posted this video on his site.

 
pollinator
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paul wheaton wrote:

joe pacelli wrote:That video they posted says more about their judgment than anything else.  Some people just have to play the victim role in order to justify their own irrational and contradictory behavior.



I would speculate, and I am no psychologist, that they:

1)  hornswaggled me and felt some shame about that.  In the end, they did come up with a solution that goes back to being fair, but it did leave me screwed because it was presented during the pdc instead of months earlier.  I think they felt some shame about not being good communicators earlier.

2)  that lead to them showing up a day late and not videoing the tour.  Compounding shame.

3)  Then there was the big blow up.  The volume knob was a few notches past "too crazy."  All in the face of me that did not respond in kind.   More shame.

4)  Shame leads to resentments and now everything that they see about me and my place is through shit colored glasses.  Which lead to weird demands.  Which lead to their powerful need of activating "might makes right" to the best of their ability.

Again - just some speculation on my part.




I like your speculation and description of shit colored glasses.  Spot on!  I share space in the world of psychology.  Shame and unexpressed resentments can lead to many fucked up demands, misbehaviors, AVOIDANCE OF RESPONSIBILITY, and dramatic displays.  Unless someone is hacking one's head off with an axe, big blow ups are unproductive.  These anger explosions give more insight into the mentality of the person throwing the temper tantrum, rather than their target.  

Remember that this is your land, your vision, and your community.  People deify Bill Mollison, but even the great Bill Mollison said that the reason he put permaculture into motion is because he was royally fucking pissed.

Keep being you.  

The Fouches just posted an video example of what happens when eco level 2-3 folks come to an eco level 8 learning event.   They apparently bring their righteous judgment with them.  I was watching the feeds during the talent show debates and saw it forming (versions 1.0, 1.1, and 1.3-- i missed the off-camera ones).  I would humbly suggest that they do not represent all eco level 2-3 folks.  

Oh, speaking of red flags, when 1 non-leader, non-teacher person in a group makes statements that they are speaking for everyone, that's a red flag.  It is a boundary violation of the course norm.  Maybe there could be a "big red flag" award

 
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So, after watching the Fouches' video, perusing the comments, watching the "gut feeling" haters pile on the bandwagon, plus this thread, I have just one question. Who else wants a "F~(k the Fouches" t-shirt? I'm just kidding folks.... I don't want other people with the same shirt as me. We appreciate what you do Paul, no matter how assholish. Thanks
 
paul wheaton
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joe pacelli wrote:  I was watching the feeds during the talent show debates and saw it forming (versions 1.0, 1.1, and 1.3-- i missed the off-camera ones).  I would humbly suggest that they do not represent all eco level 2-3 folks.  

Oh, speaking of red flags, when 1 non-leader, non-teacher person in a group makes statements that they are speaking for everyone, that's a red flag.  It is a boundary violation of the course norm.  Maybe there could be a "big red flag" award



I think I handled myself extremely well in face of ...   a poorly presented "suggestion"?    How did it look from your professional perspective?

 
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I had watched about 30 of their videos over the past week while on a trip.  I was enjoying them even though I could tell Nick's style of doing things was a lot slower and more exacting than mine.  Still enjoyed them.

Last video just soured me on them and I'm likely done.

I hate when people you like do things you don't like,  it's tough.  But we all have choices with our time.  I hate there were 700+ comments because I don't feel that posting anything on the video will actually get to them now, it would just invite battles between Paul supporters and Fouch supporters.

The irony of the situation is that they fall right into a cliche of what Paul has had to deal with and why he does things the way he does them.

I will be waiting for their PDC on their land, maybe I'll support their kickstarter too just to compare.  
 
paul wheaton
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M Johnson wrote:I will be waiting for their PDC on their land ...



Excellent point!

A bit of "walk a mile in paul's clodhoppers"

 
Kerry Ceilidh
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Ben Gore wrote:Who else wants a "F~(k the Fouches" t-shirt? I'm just kidding folks.... I don't want other people with the same shirt as me.



My t-shirt will have superhero crime fighting duo Douche-o-matic Boy and Integrity Girl fighting to rid Permieland of the evil that is The Wheaton.  

You know you want one Paul 😋
 
paul wheaton
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Kerry Ceilidh wrote:

Ben Gore wrote:Who else wants a "F~(k the Fouches" t-shirt? I'm just kidding folks.... I don't want other people with the same shirt as me.



My t-shirt will have superhero crime fighting duo Douche-o-matic Boy and Integrity Girl fighting to rid Permieland of the evil that is The Wheaton.  

You know you want one Paul 😋



That was a good laugh.  

 
gardener
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paul wheaton wrote:

That was a part of all this that seemed pretty odd to me:  I was offering a PDC, after having taken a PDC and taught at many PDCs.  And a student was very insistent that I have to modify my standards for a PDC.  I thought my standards were already really good, and the suggestions didn't even make sense to me.   So then the student thought the best form of persuasion was many different forms of fallacy.  

Dear student:  you are attending a PDC.  You are welcome to enjoy the parts of the pdc you like best.   You are welcome to skip a bit if that is what makes you comfortable.  Of course, if you skip a critical bit, then you won't get a certificate with my name and signature on it.  But, I would guess that at that point, a certificate with my name and signature is of very low value.  So it all works out.  

Apparently, this student thinks ....  after never having completed a PDC or been involved in the discussions of how one might offer a PDC ...   that I absolutely must comply with his PDC vision rather than my own.  

In the end, this student stuck to his values and did not get a PDC certificate from me.  He thinks that was wrong.  Or, more specifically, that I was wrong for not obeying a student.



This is what happens when you don't listen to sensei.  ;D  Hope you enjoy.


 
joe pacelli
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paul wheaton wrote:

joe pacelli wrote:  I was watching the feeds during the talent show debates and saw it forming (versions 1.0, 1.1, and 1.3-- i missed the off-camera ones).  I would humbly suggest that they do not represent all eco level 2-3 folks.  

Oh, speaking of red flags, when 1 non-leader, non-teacher person in a group makes statements that they are speaking for everyone, that's a red flag.  It is a boundary violation of the course norm.  Maybe there could be a "big red flag" award



I think I handled myself extremely well in face of ...   a poorly presented "suggestion"?    How did it look from your professional perspective?



I think you were quite patient and provided more than ample time for the talent show exemption 'suggestion' to be repeatedly expressed.  Any sane student with an axe to grind would have left those discussions feeling like they had been "heard" and not insulted.   Despite the difference of opinion, you held true to permaculture tradition for your certificate.  I think that's quite honorable.  
 
pollinator
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Everyone here has lost due to thankless arguing on the internet.  What a disservice to the instructors for your course and the people who participated in your Kickstarter.  And the comments both on this thread and the YouTube thread just make everything worse for everyone.  

What's probably the most sad is whether this will affect how people view in the information from your instructors because they are now affected by this brouhaha.  What a waste.

Paul, I've unsubscribed from Patreon not because of the video but because of how it was handled here.  I am 100% sure neither party is blameless in this meltdown and I don't find interpersonal train wrecks educational nor entertaining.
 
joe pacelli
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K Putnam wrote:Everyone here has lost due to thankless arguing on the internet.  What a disservice to the instructors for your course and the people who participated in your Kickstarter.  And the comments both on this thread and the YouTube thread just make everything worse for everyone.  

What's probably the most sad is whether this will affect how people view in the information from your instructors because they are now affected by this brouhaha.  What a waste.

Paul, I've unsubscribed from Patreon not because of the video but because of how it was handled here.  I am 100% sure neither party is blameless in this meltdown and I don't find interpersonal train wrecks educational nor entertaining.



I'm sorry to observe your expressions of degrees of sadness, your sense of loss, a lack of fulfilling education, and feelings associated with not being thanked on the internet. I want to thank you for trying to make things better for everyone.

As a kickstarter supporter, I feel more like a winner and much better off today, knowledge-wise, than I did before the PDC & ATC. I don't feel like the PDC & ATC were a disservice.

I actually experienced more reward,excitement, and entertainment than I was promised when I initially supported the Kickstarter. There was at least a 45 minute, erudite analysis and mature discussion of how to handle human excrement which has not been discussed in detail in any other Lawton or Mollison PDC that I've previously completed.

In terms of the instructors you reference as being disserved, what an amazing experience. Finally, a PDC that included a gaggle of instructors with experience- all respectfully sharing their experiences and expert knowledge every single day!  The first day, the lead instructor (trained by Geoff Lawton) actually deferred topics involving temperate climate permaculture to members of the course.  

I respect that you feel your support of the kickstarter and PDC was a waste, and personally it wasn't sad or a waste for me.
 
gardener
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Some of the comments here feel like people who have had a bad divorce. Where they get mad at someone, then retroactively reevaluate every interaction with the person in the most negative light possible. The Fouches and Paul quite clearly did not have the same set of expectations. I don't think the Fouches posted this just for the clicks, anymore than any other Youtuber(for whom clicks are ALWAYS on their mind). They put out 13+ Videos(mostly positive) over the course and it would have been WEIRD if they didn't make a summary video of their experience.

Paul was selling a PDC, and the customer had mixed reviews of the product. "The customer should have known" is not a helpful attitude towards making sure both parties have a good outcome. They did not have a good experience at the Lab according to THEIR standards, which they expressed on THEIR channel. Paul did not have a good experience with them according to HIS standards, which he expressed on HIS forum. The Fouches left Boston to setup an off-grid Homestead in Idaho with 3 kids. Passive easy-going people do not do things like this. Strong personalities interact strongly. A "Fuck the Fouches" sentiment and mean-spirited limericks don't do anything but stir up an us-vs-them bitterness that doesn't have to happen.

NOTE: I HAVE listened to all the podcasts, read the fourms regularly, support the kickstarters, and support in other ways. I am not confused as to what Paul is trying to accomplish, or why he is doing it the way he is.
 
Kerry Ceilidh
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Bill Crim wrote:
A "Fuck the Fouches" sentiment and mean-spirited limericks don't do anything but stir up an us-vs-them bitterness that doesn't have to happen.



There are hundreds of comments on the YouTube video saying mean and pointed things about Paul including ones suggesting he is trying to run a kind of sinister cult.  When I last saw it I think there were nearly 700 comments slapping the Fouchs on the back to Paul's detriment with less than 30 ( a guesstimate) opposed to the post or asking for clarification of their claims.

On this thread there are currently 61 posts.  Some of which include comments which are not favourable to the Fouchs but are a response to a situation they brought in to the public arena.  These comments do not balance out the landslide of comments on their video.

For my part I did make a comment which may have been taken to be nasty by some but its intention was to make Paul laugh which I was pleased to see it did.  I hazard a guess the comments you were referring to (Bill) were made with the same intention.

Having watched some of the Kickstarter for the PDC it was evident to me that Paul was absent at times .  He appeared stressed and had a lot of stuff to deal with. I might also add the atmosphere has now changed and the ATC seems to be a much better environment for all.  I don't think he does this stuff for the good of his health.  He does it because he loves and enjoys the subject matter.  It is for this reason that so many people are part of the forum.  His strong character has helped spread the word and is perhaps even a part of how the Fouchs became interested themselves.

No I'm not some kind of Paul groupie....(gosh Paul I think I might cheerfully strangle you myself 😁).  He doesn't take prisoners or suffer fools gladly and it is his "house" so he does get to make the rules.  He clearly states these things as most people will know from reading or listening to his stuff BUT he is doing it.  He got off his bum and made it all happen.  Maybe not in the way some people might like or approve of but for that Paul gets my gratitude and respect.

So if at a time when people are giving him shit, I can, in the tiniest of ways, make him laugh then mea culpa.  I'll go sit on the naughty step with Paul ...  wearing my t-shirt 😀

 
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I have no opinions on anyone's personality/character here, though I'm guessing 'massive button-pressings each way.'  It happens. It's happened to me.

It does shout loudly, however, to the need to have things clearly defined, and in writing. Never assume the other person's worldview and responses are the same as yours. Ask the questions, get the answers, explain your compromises (eg kids vs ticket-payers). Write it down. Every time I've not done that, things have gone horribly wrong...
 
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I am a kickstarter supporter looking forward to getting my downloads of the PDC and ATC. I have followed Fouch-o-matic for a long time and have enjoyed what they put out there. I have never seen anything from them publicly that is in any way negative about anyone and I feel like they went out of their way in the video to make clear they were just expressing their opinion based on limited observation because they did not feel comfortable leaving an impression that they were endorsing Wheaton Labs. Additionally they do not seem to be expanding upon anything or attacking Paul at all in the comments section for their video even in response to some of their followers that might be. That all seems pretty reasonable to me.

On the other side I have listened to far less of Paul's content but have consumed some. I feel like Paul also presented a reasonable description of his perception of what happen in the initial post here. Paul is more involved in the discussion with his followers but even there he seems to be, mostly, making reasoned statements about his observations.

My conclusion is the same as when my kids come to me explaining how they got in an argument, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. That being said the fact that I have never once heard the Fouch's do anything remotely like this over a couple of years leads me to also conclude that something rather significant in the eyes of the Fouch's must have concerned them. Of course I was not there so I will never know.

The more telling thing to me is the followers responses. It seems that many people in the Fouch's comments clearly don't like Paul and I am not surprised by that. Paul has a love it or hate it type personality it seems to me and if they don't like him fine. The reason I don't consume as much of Paul's content has to do with his personality as well, just harder for me to watch/listen to him. More interesting to me though are the responses here. There seem to be a lot of haters here that are hating on them for no other reason than these people felt a need to clarify that they will not endorse Wheaton Labs. It seems that some have not even really watched their other videos. If this video makes you angry enough to say some of the things said here then fine but realize that kind of thing is probably more likely to turn people off to Paul rather than bringing more people in even though it is not him saying some of those things. Just my opinion.

I can't wait to get my downloads and start watching the courses!
 
John Derry
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Kerry Ceilidh wrote:

Bill Crim wrote:
Having watched some of the Kickstarter for the PDC it was evident to me that Paul was absent at times .  He appeared stressed and had a lot of stuff to deal with. I might also add the atmosphere has now changed and the ATC seems to be a much better environment for all.  



I agree Kerry (is that your name, it is my location!), the atmosphere is very different on the ATC. I watched some of the tour that Josiah kindly uploaded yesterday. Paul was so much lighter and happier during this than by the end of the PDC.

 
pollinator
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Scott Martucci wrote: the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.



Paul goes to a lot of trouble to repeat, over and over in different ways, that his goal is to do things his way at his place.  Not to meet people halfway between their way and his way.  He has said, over and over for literally years, if you don't like things done his way at his place, don't go there.  Period.  So if people don't like what he does at his place, it is 100% on them.  Unlike out in the rest of the world, he is not obligated to meet anyone half way.

In my opinion.

(Paul groupie)
 
pollinator
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Well lets make a distinction, we have Paul the giant and Paul the Duke. Well actually both might be the same, just a human like us.
Thanks for everything. Your works are greatly appriciated.
I can only talk for myself, permies.com and all other endeavors he and his team put through had a huge influence 9700km away.

And for those who call this as cult. Really? Seriously? Wow..
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Scott Martucci
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Tyler Ludens wrote:

Scott Martucci wrote: the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.



Though in general I agree with that sentiment, in this case I don't.  Paul goes to a lot of trouble to repeat, over and over in different ways, that his goal is to do things his way at his place.  Not to meet people halfway between their way and his way.  He has said, over and over for literally years, if you don't like things done his way at his place, don't go there.  Period.  So if people don't like what he does at his place, it is 100% on them.  Unlike out in the rest of the world, he is not obligated to meet anyone half way.

In my opinion.

(Paul groupie)



I agree and I am not saying that he is obligated to meet anyone anywhere. I am just saying that his version of events is probably not any more true than theirs is and the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. They did not just come to his place randomly he opened up a class and invited people to come and they came. Should probably have been better agreement from both sides what the expectations of that arrangement were so lesson learned as Paul said. However, if you go into a place as a customer and want to let them know you don't think they are doing things in the way you think they should you are free to do so just as much as the owner is free to ignore you. They seem to have been reasonable enough to wait until after the event then release a video explaining to their audience in their space that they do not endorse Wheaton Labs. Even Paul agrees this is perfectly acceptable ("But it is totally fair to warn people away"). As I mentioned the thing that strikes me is not Paul's response, which seems reasonable, but some of the other peoples response here.
 
Todd Parr
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Scott Martucci wrote:They seem to have been reasonable enough to wait until after the event then release a video explaining to their audience in their space that they do not endorse Wheaton Labs.  



I understand the point you are trying to make, and they absolutely have the right to endorse, or not, anyone they see fit.  Were their actions actually reasonable?  Having not been there, I don't feel qualified to have an opinion on the specifics, but if the conditions were as horrific, unsanitary, and unsafe as they say, was it wise to stay, with their children no less?  Personally, if I went to a class, a camp, a getaway, of any kind, and I was feeling emotionally abused and in danger, I would hop my happy ass in my car and leave.  If it was a paid event, I would pursue getting my money back after leaving and getting my family to safety.  The fact that they say how horrid the conditions were, but stayed, makes me think they may be exaggerating the situation just a tad.
 
Scott Martucci
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Todd Parr wrote:

Scott Martucci wrote:They seem to have been reasonable enough to wait until after the event then release a video explaining to their audience in their space that they do not endorse Wheaton Labs.  



I understand the point you are trying to make, and they absolutely have the right to endorse, or not, anyone they see fit.  Were their actions actually reasonable?  Having not been there, I don't feel qualified to have an opinion on the specifics, but if the conditions were as horrific, unsanitary, and unsafe as they say, was it wise to stay, with their children no less?  Personally, if I went to a class, a camp, a getaway, of any kind, and I was feeling emotionally abused and in danger, I would hop my happy ass in my car and leave.  If it was a paid event, I would pursue getting my money back after leaving and getting my family to safety.  The fact that they say how horrid the conditions were, but stayed, makes me think they may be exaggerating the situation just a tad.



Agreed that I was not there and do not know what went down but as I said based a couple years worth of videos from these people they have never shown any inclination to say anything negative about anyone. Should they have left or shouldn't they have, I don't know but seems like me trying to make that decision for them based on what I would do is no different than trying to tell Paul he has to change the way he does things because I don't like it.

Still anxiously waiting for my videos!! Now to find the time to watch that much video, hmmmm.
 
gardener
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In the time it takes to post a reply to this thread, we each could have approached 5 random people on the street and explained 5 different benefits of Permaculture. (Maybe 3 for most people, I type slow.) Let's get back to doing something positive with our time. So what if there's two more people in the Anti-PaulWheaton camp. They aren't loners there.
 
gardener
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Meanwhile I went outside before it gets frying hot here, watered, weeded, played in the compost and admired the worms; found one of my opuntia has burst into bloom, and all those good things. Vastly more enjoyable.
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Edited to add "BLOOM!!!!!"
 
Karen Donnachaidh
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I mixed my first batch of Life-Changing Bread (can't wait to bake it), picked squash and cut one squash bug in half with my scissors (felt justified).

That was much better than feeling angry.
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I love bread
 
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...
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Scott Martucci
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Judith Browning wrote: ...



Love bee balm!! We moved late this spring and don't have any blooming at the new place yet, I miss it.
 
Judith Browning
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Scott Martucci wrote:

Judith Browning wrote: ...



Love bee balm!! We moved late this spring and don't have any blooming at the new place yet, I miss it.



me too!  I haven't been able to get a picture of it that looks as beautiful as what I see...working on it.  This began as a couple small plants last year
 
Don't listen to Steve. Just read this tiny ad:
Intrinsic: An Agriculture of Altered Chaos
https://permies.com/t/95922/Intrinsic-Agriculture-Altered-Chaos
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