paul wheaton is fucking awesome!

Scott Martucci wrote:I am a kickstarter supporter looking forward to getting my downloads of the PDC and ATC.

Most of the instant stream and tiny download videos are available already for the VPDC:

Index of VPDC/ATC Tiny Download Videos

Index of VPDC/ATC Instant View Videos

The some are still being uploaded and the HD videos aren't up yet as far as I know...which is reasonable since they're still trying to get the first rounds of videos up and the Kickstarter said the HD videos would be up sometime in July if I remember correctly. Videos are being updated in the index daily with whatever has been uploaded that day.

Thank you to those who have spoken out in support of Paul and wheaton labs. The ATC is rolling along and folks are having a wonderful time!

Things are experimental at wheaton labs. And if folks knew what the goals are for certain systems, if they have or had listened to the podcasts, read the forums, etc. then they would understand what the goals are and why some things are done a bit differently here than other places.

It has been an exceedingly odd convergence of misunderstandings that has led to some recent messiness. There are things that have been difficult, and not perfect, and some times not even how Paul or I or others intended them to be. And we continue to learn from our mistakes, and make changes, and keep on trying.

Thanks for the link, Thyri, this is so cool.  Now I can start "watching" the video.  (I have watching in quotes because I have to work on paperwork at the same time.)

Julia Winter wrote:Thanks for the link, Thyri, this is so cool.  Now I can start "watching" the video.  (I have watching in quotes because I have to work on paperwork at the same time.)

You're welcome.

Well, I'm new to the world of permaculture (via finding Jack Spirko and thesurvivalpodcast), but have been reading on here a bit as I explore what can I do with my 1/3 acre in suburban Kansas City (zone 5/6). Lots to digest, but Paul, you come across as a good guy. I like reading your thoughts and think it'd be nice to meet you one day. I don't know the couple (the Fouches?) that went wacky on you, never heard of them before, but I am more interesting in listening to you than them. Keep on being you... it obviously resonates with the folks here. Oh yes, I also wanted to say thanks for the forum, have learned some neat stuff here and met some other nice people. Thanks!

Leif Ing wrote:Well, I'm new to the world of permaculture (via finding Jack Spirko and thesurvivalpodcast)...

I like reading your thoughts and think it'd be nice to meet you one day!

May I check you've discovered Paul's podcasts? He hasn't had as much time to put into them recently, but there are other 300 of them and listening to them from start to end is quite the education: https://permies.com/forums/f-88/podcast

Bill Crim wrote:

A "Fuck the Fouches" sentiment and mean-spirited limericks don't do anything but stir up an us-vs-them bitterness that doesn't have to happen.

Kerry Ceilidh wrote:

There are hundreds of comments on the YouTube video saying mean and pointed things about Paul including ones suggesting he is trying to run a kind of sinister cult.  When I last saw it I think there were nearly 700 comments slapping the Fouchs on the back to Paul's detriment with less than 30 ( a guesstimate) opposed to the post or asking for clarification of their claims.

On this thread there are currently 61 posts.  Some of which include comments which are not favourable to the Fouchs but are a response to a situation they brought in to the public arena.  These comments do not balance out the landslide of comments on their video.

For my part I did make a comment which may have been taken to be nasty by some but its intention was to make Paul laugh which I was pleased to see it did.

So if at a time when people are giving him shit, I can, in the tiniest of ways, make him laugh then mea culpa.  I'll go sit on the naughty step with Paul ...  wearing my t-shirt 😀

Ben Gore wrote:

Thanks for saving me time with a reply similar to what mine would have been. I also wanted to make the big man laugh.... and make someone whine as well! So thanks for the tears Bill

Daniel Campbell (no relation to me - that I know of! - by the way), posted three video responses to the Fouches criticism of Paul that are quite rational, reasonable and, frankly refreshingly helpful.

John Derry posted the 2nd of the three, earlier in this thread (here).

Here are videos 1 and 3.

Thanks Jocelyn for posting about the videos I hadn't seen the 3rd one which was a fantastic, thought provoking and balanced piece.  

So great he (Daniel?) had taken the time to look at the other side of the equation and had pointed out the obvious - that the people in the forum can string thoughts and words together.  It seems he can see the care we have in this community.  

I couldn't make myself watch that Fouch video to the end.
I've been up to Wheaton Labs, had a great experience and loved what I saw.  I totally enjoyed the course that I took, the facilities were clean, the food - amazing.
I've listened to so many podcasts and videos, I feel that I know Paul, his unique sense of humor and his tremendous contribution to this Permie way of being on the planet.
Thank you Paul - I'm proud to be a Permie!

John Derry wrote:

Leif Ing wrote:Well, I'm new to the world of permaculture (via finding Jack Spirko and thesurvivalpodcast)...

I like reading your thoughts and think it'd be nice to meet you one day!

May I check you've discovered Paul's podcasts? He hasn't had as much time to put into them recently, but there are other 300 of them and listening to them from start to end is quite the education: https://permies.com/forums/f-88/podcast

I haven't discovered his podcasts yet... am only up to about #380 out of about 2021 podcasts from TSP, after listening pretty hardcore at work for the last 2-3 months! Sounds like Jack approves of Paul and I value Jack's advice based on listening to a lot of his stuff, so until I saw otherwise he has an effect on my otherwise uninformed opinion. Currently I am hoping to start working with a guy locally who has a 10 acre and 12 acre property and a couple sister farms, at least one of which sounds like the owner has a PDC. So, I am hoping to volunteer on my days off and learn and meet folks, hopefully get some advice on how to design my 1/3 acre urban lot. In the meantime though, am getting ready to start producing microgreens for my first restaurant after a business meeting with them today... the purchasing manager is very interested and has working with micros before, she also knows a couple other local chefs...

Working on the dream of quitting my job in a couple years and farming sustainably on my lot and in my basement/growroom!

paul wheaton wrote:I think the really sad part here is the demonstration of how permaculture will only allow the people with really thick skin to be in a leadership role.   I've been told that I am now a global leader and that is seriously fucked up.   There should be a hundred people far better than me, and far more pleasant.  Willie Smits is quite pleasant - maybe we need a hundred more of him.
At the same time, Sepp Holzer's model is what we turn to for cold climates.  Sepp is famous for being harsh.  And in podcast 111 I explore the idea that we, sepp's audience, are so incredibly mean to him that we make him that way, OR the same audience was so incredibly mean to all aspiring leaders, and 99% of them decided to go quiet rather than continue to go through the gauntlet of nasty.

This is sad.  I have kind of thin skin at times but even more of a unwillingness the older I get to just deal with PEOPLE so have limited ideas on how much I want to lead and how much I just want to show people how I live instead and let them take what they like.

On the issue of Paul being avoided, I will wait until October when we visit Wheaton Labs to make a final decision.  From what I have gleaned thus far, I believe he and I are quite alike.  I'm loud, opinionated, knowledgeable, helpful, and often jump into a leadership role.  Some people get pissed at me jumping in and taking charge or mad that I voice my opinion.  But there are many who appreciate the way I get things done and the way I share what I know and by how hard I work.  Lucky for me, most people look past my loud, brash, pushy times because they see how big my heart is and how much I truly want to help make things better, work hard, and love those around me.

I have learned in my years to be more of a listener though it can still be a struggle at times.  I have learned to not be boisterous, especially when I'm just trying to be funny... though I often still blurt out the off-color comment that even I realize in the moment, went a bit too far.  I have found my life to be pretty darn successful and I can look back mostly with pride.

I don't know if Paul and I will be so much alike that we clash, but I'm sure looking forward to giving him a chance.  It is discouraging that the Fouches felt a need to bias people against Paul/WL with such a limited experience.  I have to admit this sets me on edge.  I wonder if I need to really clarify with Jocelyn about our living arrangements in detail for the October workshops.  I don't expect problems as I've heard from so many about how much love there is for Paul and Wheaton Labs.  Yes, I've also heard, mostly from Paul, how many people think he's an asshole (which lends him a lot of integrity and integrity takes people a long way in my book, even the assholes).  But I also comprehend that clear expectations are the best method for assuring no hurt feelings.  

I too have the tendency, like Paul seems to have found with Esther, of putting comments out there expressing my expectations and finding people don't always have the confidence/integrity/assertiveness to reply back when they are not in line with what I'm putting out.  I am often one to clarify if someone asserts something or comments about something that isn't clear to me or in line with my expectations so I can be sure of what we have going.  But then, I'm a confident leader type...  And typically, I don't have issue setting things up because I'm wordy as hell and usually people are like, "Yeah, yeah, we're good already!"

And I'm betting me and Esther's Mom would likely find synergy too.  My assessment, for what it's worth, is that Paul triggered Ester (being just like her mom) and the rest was justification for bad behavior.  I've had that with people and have even just simply asked, "Do I remind you of someone?" when I find an unexplained over-reaction in an encounter.  Mostly people can be really unaware of this human tendency.  

I like it best when there can be a human moment followed by a discussion/resolution which lets everyone own their stuff and hear the various perspectives and then ends in hugs and forgiveness.  It takes big people to do this.  From what I have seen, Paul's a big dude so I have high hopes.  Plus, I'm looking forward to a big bear hug.

Finally I found this post. I thought it should be there, but wasn't sure (and didn't know where).
I know that family (only from youtube, not for real). I follow their videos, on how they live off-grid, first in a yurt and now in a wooden house. Most of the time it's interesting and nice to look at. Only when her mother is mentioned, she has a strange look on her face; after some things she told about the past I find it strange she still tells about her mother and the 'famous' book she wrote.

When they told they were going to do the PDC at Wheaton Labs, the idea of seeing more of the place I read about so often pleased me. I hoped to see their impression of the Ant Village too. But their videos didn't show much of their surroundings. OK, it's about the PDC, not about Wheaton Labs, the Ant Village or about the people who live there.

And then, suddenly, there was this criticism! I could not believe the way they talked now. Those people who were always so nice and a good example in their behaviour (in their videos). My first reaction was: there must be some 'ground' for them to say this about Paul. Then I started reading the comments, looking for people who really knew Paul ... It was a long search, most people did not know Paul, but were very hateful against him!
When I finally found a comment of someone who did visit Wheaton Labs and the Ant Village, and who said it was not like they told, I felt relieved.
But still I can't understand it. How can people appear so nice and right in their videos and then suddenly be so hateful and throwing mud and try to influence others to feel the same?

I still follow their youtube channel. In their later videos they are as if nothing happened at all ... Strange, very strange ...

Jami Gaither wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:
And I'm betting me and Esther's Mom would likely find synergy too.  My assessment, for what it's worth, is that Paul triggered Ester (being just like her mom) and the rest was justification for bad behavior.  I've had that with people and have even just simply asked, "Do I remind you of someone?" when I find an unexplained over-reaction in an encounter.  Mostly people can be really unaware of this human tendency.  

I love everything you've written, and, with regard to the topic of this thread I just wanted to add something here (and I think you will agree with my addition):

Esther actually triggered Esther    

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:But still I can't understand it. How can people appear so nice and right in their videos and then suddenly be so hateful and throwing mud and try to influence others to feel the same?

Dear Inge (who wishes to warm my bald spot - and who's art still adorns my wall),

The answer is simple and two fold:

A:  they are human.  They were told silly things and they decided to believe it.  Instead of trying to mend perceived problems, they made a problem worse.

B:  they could bring kindness to a situation, which usually feeds the whole "pay it forward" type of scenario.  Instead, the moment they said something unkind about someone, it naturally makes that someone think they are unkind.

paul wheaton wrote:

The answer is simple and two fold:

A:  Pie

B:  Cream

The answer to all things should be thus.

I think you deserve some 😁

That does look good!

(Edited - realized I was bitching just like the couple in the video)

Let the it go Paul it isn't worth your time or energy. When you do stuff there are going to be people who hate you (see all the shit that goes around about Geoff Lawton). If you don't do stuff someone will hate you for that too. So why not just do stuff?

I'm back with more....
I am a hot tempered and very opinionated lady... I am attracted to coming to Wheaton labs if I ever go to the states. Yet I am also aware that my personality might clash with Paul's so I am not in a hurry to get there (ie. maybe get my shit sorted out first so I don't go projecting my issues on other people).

Paul is extremely honest in his podcasts and blog posts - e.g.. wrt to safety issues and bringing kids to the labs: don't do it unless you are prepared to take full responsibility for their safety. This is a working place, a building site, not a petting zoo. Wrt. Animals - we don't have animal ssystems in place yet because we are not ready for it, we want to give the animals the best living conditions and we can't right now. Wrt. Food systems - we are  not 100% self-sufficient yet, we have been building houses first so we have places to live. Wrt. Personality - Paul has one and it will not agree with everybody. Wrt. Rules, they are strict and not negotiable, maybe even dogmatic, if you don't like them, you don't have to come.

If they did not know this going into the PDC, well then they might have been surprised. I think maybe they should have done some research first before buyi g their tickets?

Wrt unsanitary, that totally is not my impression of the labs (from videos made by people other than Paul) and I would like to see some proof of that . My impression is that Wheaton labs are more sanitary than most permaculture places that I have seen, and that Paul is almost pedantic about it (it seems to be cleaner than my place at any rate). I actually turned away from the who,e penalties movement as a child because it all seemed to be about smelly compost toilets and dirty kitchens...

This kind of softspoken slander irks me - I have seen it in my childhood growing up among hippies all the time. It seems like if you say your criticism if people with a soft voice and maybe even end with a Namaste then you are not slandering, but just being honest... or "voicing your concern".🤢

I do realize that if you really have a beef with someone, and what they are doing is dangerous and stupid it can be a good idea to get the message out there to warn other people about it, but please substantiate your complaints so that the person you are critizing has a chance to respond. On the other hand as someone said if it was that unsanitary and unsafe - why did you stay? With kids? It seems irresponsible...

And if Paul knows as little about permaculture as they say - why are all these wonderful people who were guest speakers at the PCT willing to work with him? Many of them have been to Wheaton labs at numerous occasions and cooperate with Paul on many projects. It would seem they don't have much integrity if they are working with someone who is basically a con-artist...

paul wheaton wrote:

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:But still I can't understand it. How can people appear so nice and right in their videos and then suddenly be so hateful and throwing mud and try to influence others to feel the same?

Dear Inge (who wishes to warm my bald spot - and who's art still adorns my wall),

The answer is simple and two fold:

A:  they are human.  They were told silly things and they decided to believe it.  Instead of trying to mend perceived problems, they made a problem worse.

B:  they could bring kindness to a situation, which usually feeds the whole "pay it forward" type of scenario.  Instead, the moment they said something unkind about someone, it naturally makes that someone think they are unkind.

Thank you Paul.
Yes I know (and knew before) humans can do such things. But still it's strange to me. Humans have the ability to think before acting, they can think about what will happen if they do or say something. And then they can choose how to communicate what they want to (with what words and images). It would be a good thing if humans would all use this ability ...
Yes I know this is not the case, most humans do not do so.

Anyway: I do prefer humans who say what they want to say in a well-considered way. That could even be 'harsh' (if needed), as long as it is based on facts (found out to be true). I do not like it if they tell lies in 'nice' words with a smiling face. And I never like it if they talk about someone without talking with that person.

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:But still I can't understand it. How can people appear so nice and right in their videos and then suddenly be so hateful and throwing mud and try to influence others to feel the same?

Dear Inge (who wishes to warm my bald spot - and who's art still adorns my wall),

The answer is simple and two fold:

A:  they are human.  They were told silly things and they decided to believe it.  Instead of trying to mend perceived problems, they made a problem worse.

B:  they could bring kindness to a situation, which usually feeds the whole "pay it forward" type of scenario.  Instead, the moment they said something unkind about someone, it naturally makes that someone think they are unkind.

Thank you Paul.
Yes I know (and knew before) humans can do such things. But still it's strange to me. Humans have the ability to think before acting, they can think about what will happen if they do or say something. And then they can choose how to communicate what they want to (with what words and images). It would be a good thing if humans would all use this ability ...
Yes I know this is not the case, most humans do not do so.

Anyway: I do prefer humans who say what they want to say in a well-considered way. That could even be 'harsh' (if needed), as long as it is based on facts (found out to be true). I do not like it if they tell lies in 'nice' words with a smiling face. And I never like it if they talk about someone without talking with that person.

Between stimulus and response lies a space, in that space lies your free will (quote someone wise)

Based on Esther's description of herself, and my own personal interactions with those dealing with mental health issues, nothing seems particularly out of place in this story. I hope they find a place where they can thrive despite their disabilities.

http://estheremery.com/sarah-bessey-bears/:

I'm still a kitchen-phobe with a long history of bulimia and anxiety,

John Wolfram wrote:Based on Esther's description of herself, and my own personal interactions with those dealing with mental health issues, nothing seems particularly out of place in this story. I hope they find a place where they can thrive despite their disabilities.

http://estheremery.com/sarah-bessey-bears/:

I'm still a kitchen-phobe with a long history of bulimia and anxiety,

I wonder why she couldn't have explained that in the correspondence between them and Paul.  
It seems like what Paul says in this quote below would have been an easy opportunity for a clear response from her about her kitchen phobias, especially since she is open about it elsewhere publicly.....

As part of our arrangement, we struck a deal trying to figure out the cost of food.  We left out the total cost of being here because, as i wrote several times "I'm thinking we won't be able to keep Esther out of the kitchen!"

John Wolfram wrote:Based on Esther's description of herself, and my own personal interactions with those dealing with mental health issues, nothing seems particularly out of place in this story. I hope they find a place where they can thrive despite their disabilities.

http://estheremery.com/sarah-bessey-bears/:

I'm still a kitchen-phobe with a long history of bulimia and anxiety,

Nice lit review, John

I have just one comment:

Mean people suck, yes! (haven't encountered any here on permies yet)

nice, smily, selfish, back-stabing Hypocrites even more so (haven't encountered any of those on here neither)


There is lots to do, lets get going again...

I wonder if it would help avoid these sorts of situations if people had required "homework" before people come to events like the things they're required to do before living there, listening to a few podcasts and reading a couple of particular posts (like this one a different flavor of community, for instance) maybe? Since every type of event that's likely to occur at Wheaton Labs is also likely to have podcasts on the same topic it wouldn't necessarily require off topic homework for the most part. Just exposure to Paul's style. Currently I'm on podcast fifty something. From those I'd say additionally listening to the Intentional Community podcasts might be useful to get an idea of why Paul runs things the way he does, but there might be more current podcasts that are more relevant to visitors.

 


Nick & Esther's past videos have been inspirational, but unlike most of their other commenter's, I found this video to be below their standards because it lacks integrity.  How can anyone find integrity or courage in people who make broad negative claims about another's endeavors, and then fail to back up their negative allegations with specific facts.  For instance Fouche's video early on mentions "Emotional Abuse"?  Yet they did not provide even one factual example.  Poor sanitation?  Again what are they talking about?  What facts constituted poor sanitation in their mind?  Unsafe structures? There is nothing at all brave about saying you encountered unsafe structures if they don't provide even one fact to support their allegation.   There is no integrity, no courage, and no grace in making a broad negative comment against another that no one can either refute or verify.

Esther, goes on to say negative things that are "not what I (she) experienced".  This merely back stabbing gossip.  If someone she met did experience them, they must be the one to share them.  It is beyond poor form to pass off anyone's behind the back whining as something others should know.

The only thing solid a rational person can take from Fouche's video is that they do not endorse Wheaton Labs because there is not much instruction given to those who come to work as boots or ants, and there is insufficient food growing, and animals raised to meet their standards.  That's a fine criticism -if they clearly state their own standards.

Though I offer no opinion on the policies or personalities at Wheaton Labs,  I do hope that one of the Fouche's high standards included taking their concerns directly to their host, taking it to him or her first, asking for a specific resolution, and then getting a answer or a clear failure to answer  -before airing their issue in permies.  

While many Fouche O Matic supporters claim to find their video helpful, they are often the same fools who complain about a cult atmosphere at Wheaton Labs while in the very same post they claim to trust the Fouche's completely.  Those posters have explicitly put their complete trust in the "Cult" of Fouch -O Matic"   -Idiots.

Paul, are we being antisocial again? I got that note from my teacher every year. K to 12.

I am joking. Sort of. As tyrant/leader/king of the hill and so forth, you can do as you wish in your ant farm fiefdom. As we are very lucky to live is a SECULAR FREE SOCIETY people can come and go as they please. Also, with that said I will say this. Fences make great neighbors.

I lived in my first commune back in the 80's. I was young. Some were and some were not. Luckily we had amazing leadership and few ironclad rules. This commune is one of the oldest I know of to this day. Being from a large farm family that was ruled with an iron fist by my mother, the lady we called Hitler, I was accustomed to the needs of the many before the few. Also of draconian leadership. This lifestyle is not for the weak of heart. Rural life is hard. It is harder to live with other and under the rules of one man or woman. Rules we may not agree upon. Ideologies clash. Ideas not agreed upon. I am almost 50 years old. I could never live under the rule of another man or woman at this point of my life. I am not a sheep nor am I a predator. I do not desire power of the taste of human blood. Unless thine is mine enemy.

Living in rural poverty is very difficult. I know all about it.

I am not a special snowflake. I am a man. Everyone needs to man up here. Suck it up, put up, shut up or move on. So simple.

I do business with a lot of individuals in rural Michigan and in the city of Detroit. Its like the wild west in Detroit, guns and all.  Many, many men and woman I like during the day I could never live with, let alone permaculture or commune with. I am the captain of my ship and I steer it as best I can. I think I do a damn good job. Paul, as captain of your empire, sail as you wish. Only you will have a successful journey or crash into the reefs and shoals only to sink. THAT is what men do. If a few or many decide to be let off at a port. Everyone should wish each other well and carry on.

Good luck everyone. Rock on Paul.

Everyone needs to watch Little House on the Prarie and have their Laura moments. Lol and keep perspective.

Paul Wheaton wrote: I have watched about a dozen of Esther's videos.  She's always smiling, happy and eloquent.  Seems super smooth.  And I talked to her on the phone a couple times before she came out.  Same.  Smooth.  All good.  

She also says in her "about" section (http://estheremery.com/meet-esther/) that she used to act on stage and that she's "introverted to the very end of the scale, and serious to a fault." When she's on camera she might very well put on a smiling, smooth persona. That might be the only the way she can gather the courage to be on camera. I don't know, but I know I often put on different "hats" or "personas" when the situation warrants it.

John Wolfram wrote:Based on Esther's description of herself, and my own personal interactions with those dealing with mental health issues, nothing seems particularly out of place in this story. I hope they find a place where they can thrive despite their disabilities.

http://estheremery.com/sarah-bessey-bears/:

I'm still a kitchen-phobe with a long history of bulimia and anxiety,

Judith Browning wrote:It seems like what Paul says in this quote below would have been an easy opportunity for a clear response from her about her kitchen phobias, especially since she is open about it elsewhere publicly.....

As part of our arrangement, we struck a deal trying to figure out the cost of food.  We left out the total cost of being here because, as i wrote several times "I'm thinking we won't be able to keep Esther out of the kitchen!"

True, but maybe they thought he was being sarcastic. And, maybe it's wasn't best choice to assume (if he did) that she had kitchen magic--not all women have it, just like not all women have "Magic Boobies." But, then, Paul didn't have much time to do research on the Fouches, they approached him, and--like he said--we're all human (even the amazing Paul Wheaton!)/ He watched some videos, but didn't think or know to check for her blog.

It seems to me that everyone involved had different assumptions, not enough time to research and was very human. Them posting their critique of Paul after they had already gotten everything on their side of the bargain seemed a little rude. I think Paul responded in a very reasonable way. And, I think we're all very human, we don't know everything, we make assumptions even when we don't know we're doing so, and life happens.

Paul, I already knew you were blunt and could come off as rude and opinionated--you have said this in multiple places, and you do not couch your opinions in scented language (at least not flower-scented). Sorry to hear that you were reamed for your behavior or your beliefs or whatever, and that you had this clash/misunderstanding/bad experience. HOWEVER, I think that although they were pretty strong in their criticisms I think the Fouchs were also pretty fair and careful. They gave several caveats to say that this is based on their own experiences and is only their opinion; they concede that you have done a lot of good work, they mentioned some things they liked and they spell out what some of their concerns/disappointments are. And I am sure that in spite of all the warnings you give about how you do things, some people will get the message more clearly thanks to the Fouch's videos.

I just wanted to offer a contrary opinion and say that I think the Fouch videos from their time on the property (not just this last one) add some value. And to the Fouchs, I would say that your rebuttal to their criticisms is probably a good thing for them as well. I love that permaculture values diversity, and just because two plants don't grow well together does not mean that either of those two plants should be eliminated. I see that Wheaton/Fouch may not be a good companion planting, so I just hope they both grow well in their respective parts of the garden.