haters gotta hate and rapers gotta rape

Sometime around 1985 I used CompuServe.  My compuserve id was 72707,207.  Since the service cost $12.50 per hour to access, I used a program called TapCIS that would log in, get all the data, post all my responses and log off - thus keeping my bill manageable.  

Such enjoyable and professional exchange.  So excellent.  

BBSs came and were free.  Still really good exchanges, but generally not quite as good.  

And then the internet came.  It started off okay, but gradually went downhill.  


Before starting these forums, I tried to grow as a permie through the internet.   I would try to talk about my ideas with hugelkultur and I got a heavy dose of discouragement.  Nearly universally.  Nearly all conversations were just loaded to the gills with far more nastiness than support - let alone new ideas.  

Somebody created a subreddit on reddit where the function was purely to hate me.  To try to trip me up or crush my submissions.  It had hundreds of subscribers.

The fouch video got more than 100,000 views and thousands of upvotes - but it was pure hate.   People just love drama - even if it is manufactured.

When I was asked to give a keynote at permaculture voices, I was asked to present something new and something for which I had a unique perspective.  I decided to address the problem of all the haters within permaculture and without.   I titled it "permaculture velocity" - and my point was that permaculture would now be a hundred times further along if not for all the haters.   Many of whom are within our own community.  More on that here.  Not the sort of thing I like to do, but exposing the primary problem within our community.

There have been times when I would get something hateful directed at me several times a day.  But now it is closer to once a week.  

Observers say "haters gotta hate".  As if we should be passive.   Just let it be.  Let them hate and then we all move on.    This is quite upsetting to me.  I would like to see 100,000 downvotes on the fouch video.  That would then say "all your hate stuff is NOT okay!"

Here is the weird thing:  I never saw any of that on compuserve.   Maybe the moderation there was great, but I kinda wonder if people just want to do their ugliness only if they can do it for free.  

I kinda feel like I want to have super memory of all the people that have ever said "haters gotta hate" and when they are robbed, a hundred people can show up and say "robbers gotta rob."  Maybe we mark their house so that the robbers know that these people embrace "robbers gotta rob" or "criminals gotta crime."  And the cops will see that marking and steer clear because of the philosophy set.  

The ugly hate exists because people think it is okay.  People RARELY speak out.  

Small disrespects ALWAYS grow into large disrespects.   That hater will expand into worse acts - spurred on by getting support for the hate.   But if a handful of people stood and said "hey, that's not cool!  You remove that and apologize!"  --- showing that our society values decency, then I think the world would be a far brighter place right now and permaculture would already be a household word.  


----


I have been asked a hundred times "how do you deal with all the hate you get?"   My response is that I do the same thing I did when I worked in the corporate world and was flooded with ten times more "office politics" than my peers.  

(side bit - many would argue that with so many people hating me, surely I am doing some "wrong".   And from a certain set of standards I am.  I like to think I get more done than ten people.   And several people see that and think that if they can persuade me to do their bidding, then it will seem that they are, in fact, the one getting so much done.  And when I do not obey their whims, they rephrase "obey or else".  And the hate and office politics is their "or else")

My solution to office politics is:  



      productivity always trumps office politics



      always



I have seen dozens of people fired for nothing more than bitching about me.  

And I have been fired for office politics bullshit, only to be quickly picked up by another organization.   My philosophy was that the organization that takes me in is the one that will benefit from my excellent productivity.  

The fouches put out their hate video and get thousands of thumbs up.  And I put out a new DVD and a book that brings in the most I have ever brought in for a kickstarter.  That video may have more than 100,000 views, but since then, all of my stuff has about 600 million views and setting new records each month.  I just checked and it looks like the fouches haven't put anything out in a year and a half.  

The people asking me "how do you deal with all the hate you get?" are nearly always asking because somebody sent some fresh hate their way and they are feeling like shit.   So they are asking me what to do about feeling shitty.  Most of it I brush past in a few minutes.  I feel like the hate they are throwing my way is nearly always an "obey or else" thing tied up in what a shitty person the hater is.  It really has nothing to do with me.  And if a couple of people stand up for me, then I feel much closer to those people.   So the hater facilitated this thing where I could get closer to good people.  My people.   So it actually turned out more positive.  I suppose when it hurts is when I have been generous to somebody and now they are sending hate my way.  Fuck.  Well, write them off as "human" and move on.

Part of it is:  the only way I can think of to discover wonderful, noble, awesome people is to bring yourself closer to a hundred people and, in time, write off 95.  That leaves you with 5 great people.


---


When I took my first PDC, there was a 21 year old woman in the class that always seemed genuinely glad to see everybody.   I would come around the corner and she would see me and smile big.   Really big.  Like my coming around the corner just made her month.  Maybe my coming around the corner was the best thing that has happened in the last month.  As if I am one of the coolest people she has ever met and now she gets a moment of passing me in a hallway - and she will write about this moment for years.    So it wasn't just a plastered on smile - it was something beyond genuine.  Deeply genuine.  I'm pretty sure that this is the way she lived every moment of every day.  Becoming deeply glad to be around each person in our group - and feeling that goodness to her core.  

This PDC had about six round tables that would hold about seven people each.  Which is why my PDCs feature the same round tables.   So there was a meal where I was at the same table as her.   She was explaining to us how she used to work for a permaculture instructor and he said ....     it doesn't matter what he said, what is important is:

   - it sounds like that guy is a real piece of shit

   - she thanked him for helping her to find a new way to grow as a buddhist

   - she decided to leave the next day

So that day I learned that this 21-year-old woman had her shit together far better than me.  


---

Recently, I entered into a new business arrangement.  She sent me a four page contract to sign for something that will be a few hundred bucks.   It is really rare for me to see a contract like this anymore.  I think most of the business I do is where you start small and if it works out, try bigger things and so on.  Either party can end things at any time.  

I suppose I am being punished for the actions of those that have come before me.  Somebody in her past behaved poorly - and this contract is to prevent that sort of thing from happening again.  And maybe there's even been three or four people that have burned her in ways that she did not expect.  So she is covering herself for those things, plus she spent some time trying to think of all the other things that might happen.  

I kinda thought that if anything bad happens, she is going to have a terrible time sorting it out from 2000 miles away anyway.   And it will probably costs $20,000 to get that few hundred bucks.  So the whole document is moot.  If she does what I ask, I'll pay her.  And if it was a lovely experience, let's do this again.   I signed the document so she can feel a bit more comfortable.  

In my corporate whore days, I worked for organizations in the same state.  Taking them to court would be far easier.  If the company seemed stable, I would simply submit an invoice after the first week and expect to be paid 7 days after that.   If they seemed dodgy, I would insist on a retainer.   About 85% of my "contracts" had no contract.  I did the work, and they paid me.  Pretty much every company that insisted on a contract turned out to be a shitstorm.   But dealing with a shitstorm was sort of my speciality.  I still got paid.  

Oh sure, there were contracts where they screwed me.  But that was rare.  

My Uncle Doug was a helluva businessman.  Big business.  Big, big money.   He said "never sign anything that is more than one page."   And I happen to know that 90% or more of all the business he did was on a handshake - no signatures.    


---

   

  there are 7 billion people in the world, why spend another moment with somebody that is icky?



---


If you are going to ask me "how do you deal with all the hate you get?" because you are now getting ugliness, let me ask you:   what did you do when you saw I was getting hate?  Did you say something?  Did you downvote?  Did you do anything to discourage that person from being awful?   My guess is that my hater got bored with me and moved on to you - you could have prevented it, but you didn't.   So you are now harvesting a giant weed that you didn't pluck when it was tiny.


Please support the people that are creating and building good things.  Please support the people that are trying to help others and build a better world.   Please support the people that are taking the big risks to move things forward.  

If you see nasty stuff and you don't want to get involved, usually there a way to anonymously downvote or alert the moderators.  

If you are lucky enough to find somebody that is authentically good, please support them and defend them.  Pure goodness and decency is rare and desperately needs amplification.


Haters hate because too many people encourage it and not enough people discourage it.  

You shape the world you live in.  Please shape it to be something beautiful.

Thanks for that, Paul.

A couple of additional thoughts ....



There is a woman I know that wants to do projects with me.  But when a dipshit said awful things to her about me, then she echoed those awful things.  So when she wanted to work with me, I declined.  Clearly, she turned out to be less than noble.   She told me she thought she was doing the right thing by warning people about what a monster I was, but she has since learned that that was all bullshit.   She asked me "How am I supposed to know who is right?"  I told her that in this case it was pretty clear:  on one hand, you have a guy that hasn't done much of anything and is constantly bitching about everybody.   On the other hand, you have a guy that is working long hours to build a better world and trying to pull people together - complete with a long, rich list of magnificent accomplishments.   I don't think the choice is difficult.   You were presented with a magnificent opportunity to stand for something good and discourage something ugly.   You were used by an icky person to try to bring down a good person.  

People do make mistakes.  And they learn from their mistakes.   A human says "aw c'mon, you're being a dick about this.  Get over it already."  A noble person:

   - owns their mistake

   - apologizes

   - makes it right (usually this is a huge gesture that is 10 times bigger than the error)



I know that I'm fucking awesome.  By my own standards.   I do what I do for me.  So when somebody else says "stop" or "I command you to ..."   -- their words have very little weight.  I simply think less of them.




I feel bad for you, dear reader.  I think you should have far better leadership than me.  Yet, you are kinda stuck with me because ...   well, look at all the arrows in my back.   There are so many arrows in my back, it looks a bit like I am wearing a coat that is a foot thick and made of feathers.   My guess is that a thousand people that were far better than me stood up and started on the path for leadership and after a few dozen arrows they said "fuck this shit."   If the group needing better leadership were to create a more hospitable environment, then a few of those leaders would have made it to the leadership stage.  

One way I think of these forums is that I wish for it to be the place where we grow the future leadership of permaculture.  

One way I think of my place (wheaton labs) is that I wish for it to be the place where we grow the future leadership of permaculture.



When nick fouch was here, he was telling me that they were thinking of dropping the youtube stuff.   He said something about how the audience they built were just the most awful sort of people.  I think of that when I see the number of upvotes on their awful video.




I think that if anybody wants to live a life without haters, or at least with far less than I have, then the best thing to do is nothing.  (I like the bit of comedy about how great "nothing" is: nothing is worth fighting for; nothing lasts forever; etc.)    I collect haters because I do stuff.  The more I do, the more haters I get.   Of course, for every hater, I get about a dozen awesome people - and, yes, it is worth focusing on the lovely people.  I try to reward the lovely people.   Not only do I do a lot, which attracts a lot of haters, but I also research and experiment with weird things - so ten times more hate.  And I'm fat - so double the hate again ...     I suppose if were a sexy woman and scantilly clad, then 99% of the hate would be washed away right there!  But I yam what I yam.

paul wheaton wrote:
   
  there are 7 billion people in the world, why spend another moment with somebody that is icky?

This is something that I've had to adopt.  This thread, for me, really ties together with your dream big thread.  One of the things I've experienced has been increased resistance and frustration from almost everyone I knew.  My entire family, my daughter excluded, has been either dismissive or outright combative to the point that I don't speak to them much anymore.  I think any time someone actually does something, they draw  hate.  To continue to get stuff done, you're going to have to figure out a way to not let that negativity affect you.  I decided several years ago to socially distance myself from those people as much as possible.  

I'm going to focus my efforts on creating what I want and share that with people who are open to it.  I've found I can't even spare the time worrying about what the naysayers say (they say 'nay').

I always took it to mean that some people get there kicks from trying to bring others down, likely due to their own lack of accomplishment. Therefore they are to be dismissed out of hand. The difference between "haters gon' hate" and "killer's gon' kill" or whatever is that the first only affects you if you let it. It's meant to be a dismissal of an ugly part of human nature that always has been and always will. Of something that not worth anyone's time. People are jealous, who cares? Don't help them out by caring.

These two's opinion on youtube means jack shit. Where's their freaking permaculture contribution? I never heard of these people until these recent posts permies.com and I have read a lot of permaculture stuff over the past year.

Shake it off.
-T. Swift.

Haters gotta hate... Boys will be boys... Kids are SO mean. All of these phrases are so often said with nonchalance or resignation. It's just the way it is.

Maybe we can't make everyone stop being hateful but we can fight against it when it's in our sphere of influence, speak out against it when we see it and role model better behavior always.

Amazing post, Paul. Thank you for all that you do for this website. I feel many of the Permies here see you and can appreciate even more of what goes on here, arrows in back and all.

I agree fully that some people really, really, REALLY enjoy drama in their lives. It’s something I’ve observed more as I’ve gotten older and it makes me wonder...’has it always been this way?’ Or, has pop culture and social media exacerbated this phenomenon? Maybe, all I know is my drama-Rama radar has become finely calibrated, and I steer clear of any new people who happen to enter my life with a high drama quotient.

> [they do it cuz it's free...]

Yeah, for sure. A kind of lemming. Don't even know what they're doing.  

The people we may have some obligation to address directly are those in our circle,  near us. Close to our own size in some important way. People capable of communicating, maybe even hearing. The mob is like the weather - avoid the bad and dress appropriately.

I think there's as much good as bad out there. Just don't let the social version of an ear-worm give  you tunnel vision.

> compuserve...
Great place. Self selecting has to be part of it. On one forum I  particularly liked, I learned a lot about trains from engineers and conductors sharing their work experiences, methods, concerns. Real time. Those guys were off to 4 days moving coal, wheat or even passengers when they signed off. Disagreements, sure. Good humored, civil. But those were better times for a lot of people economically, and socially - and that matters, too. I don't remember where I got that "luggable" Kaypro, but it was the perfect comm port for about two years.

And then there was Stewart Brand's  The Well. <g>


Cheers,
Rufus

I think the kind of "hate" being described here is the same, or at least a close cousin to bullying. One of the things they're trying to teach people about bullying, is that it is *very* hard for the person being bullied to counter the bully effectively on their own, but when observers singly, or better as a group, identify and label the bully's behavior clearly as bullying, that is an effective action. Often *all* that is required is for a non-involved bystander to simply, and clearly state, "That's bullying".

I think if we're all aware of that on-line and in our neighborhoods and work environments and rather than "minding our own business", speak up with just a few words and then ignore the bully in favor of positive interactions with those around us, the world will be a better place. We've got nothing to loose by trying.

I always thought the saying was "haters gonna hate" and it was a reminder to keep moving on your path even when people are throwing shade.

I also don't really see what anyone can do about the urge to hate, dismiss, deride, judge, discredit, smear, or otherwise sully the name of an other person that seems to come over all (most?) Of us as least once in a while. Directly engaging people on this kind of mood tends to sap our energy and rarely (ever?) does it change.their attitude.

If you're ever feeling overwhelmed by the hate, and you have a tolerance for east.coast gangster rap, I highly recommend Nas "Hate Me Now" as a bit of.an anthem

hateful urges:  how about therapy?

The core of this thread:  to withdraw support from the haters.  Hate is fueled by support.  And, as pointed out in my PV1 keynote:  the permies community has a hundred times more hate than the CR community.  If we want permaculture to become a household word, we need to be far better at sorting that out within our community.    

paul wheaton wrote:hateful urges:  how about therapy?

The core of this thread:  to withdraw support from the haters.  Hate is fueled by support.  And, as pointed out in my PV1 keynote:  the permies community has a hundred times more hate than the CR community.  If we want permaculture to become a household word, we need to be far better at sorting that out within our community.    

This reminds me of a story I heard about a preacher who kinda found a niche as a problem-solver for troubled churches. When he was approached by a church, at the first meeting with the leaders the first thing he did was look at all of them and say, "Who's putting fuel on the fire?" They would always be shocked and confused by his abrupt style and ask what he meant. "If no one puts fuel on a fire, it will burn out. So, who are the exact people in this congregation who are putting fuel on the fire?" Then they sat down and got to work, actually doing something rather than standing idly by doing nothing. When they started actually doing something, the strangest thing would happen; the problems would go away.

maybe let it go? they made that video 2 years ago and it boiled down to very minor criticism

It still gets thrown in Paul's face all the time. So, while I'm sure Paul's more than happy to let it go, people don't seem to like to let him let it go .

C. West wrote:maybe let it go? they made that video 2 years ago and it boiled down to very minor criticism

Give up permaculture?

Let people die of cancer?

Give up on climate change?

I have to ask because that is what I am talking about.  

How can permaculture move forward to solve global problems if permies favor petty drama over decades of accomplishment and generous sharing.

It's not just me. Geoff Lawton, Willie Smits, Joel Salatin ...  I suspect that Sepp Holzer has gotten the worst of it.  

When you sit down and really think through "why is permaculture not a household word?" Don't just dismiss it, but really dig.   I think the answer is "trolls shit on permaculture and permies allow it."  In other words, permies say "let it go."

paul wheaton wrote:

C. West wrote:maybe let it go? they made that video 2 years ago and it boiled down to very minor criticism

Give up permaculture?

Let people die of cancer?

Give up on climate change?

I have to ask because that is what I am talking about.  

How can permaculture move forward to solve global problems if permies favor petty drama over decades of accomplishment and generous sharing.

It's not just me. Geoff Lawton, Willie Smits, Joel Salatin ...  I suspect that Sepp Holzer has gotten the worst of it.  

When you sit down and really think through "why is permaculture not a household word?" Don't just dismiss it, but really dig.   I think the answer is "trolls shit on permaculture and permies allow it."  In other words, permies say "let it go."

Paul, I'm curious what your ideas are to combat that? It seems like engaging trolls just devolves into a shit throwing contest once you go beyond a single response.

For what it's worth, I think permaculture isn't a household word because the vast majority of people in the US watch many hours of commercial television every day and thus have their entire world view molded by the advertisers, primarily pharmaceutical companies, petrochemical companies, and agrichemical/industrial food companies. Sustainable self reliance is anathema to these industries that rely on broad and ignorant dependence for their profit and they invest heavily in setting the parameters of "acceptable discourse".

Petty mudslinging within the community isn't the reason most people think McDonalds is food

Paul Wheaton wrote:

When you sit down and really think through "why is permaculture not a household word?" Don't just dismiss it, but really dig.   I think the answer is "trolls shit on permaculture and permies allow it."  In other words, permies say "let it go."

So I'll ask the next question, "Why do trolls shit on pemaculture?"
A member posted a new movie: WARNING very depressing: https://permies.com/t/139580/Recommended-documentary-alternative-energy
A big theme of the movie is how Big Money is riddled through the green energy industry - which isn't very green at all. How many of the trolls are being backed by big money that benefits from people believing that the way to make dinner is to open the fridge or freezer door?

It is much easier to hate than it is to change. Permaculture is work - you actually have to go outside in the sun or rain and pick your walking onion, kale, dandelion leaves and parsley and chop them up and cook them for dinner. Personally, I prefer that over driving to, looking for what I want/need and standing in line at the grocery store, but most people have been convinced that shopping is the modern and better way. There are/have been some shows on TV about how people lived in the past, or how people survive in the wilderness, but many modern people can't picture themselves actually doing it, and too many of those shows are all about interpersonal drama. Seriously, a sit-com (situational comedy) about permaculture? What would that look like? Half an hour about throwing seed balls on a hugel mound? Maybe we need a personable chef to do a "permaculture cooking" show? I will have to think more about this...

s. lowe wrote:Paul, I'm curious what your ideas are to combat that? It seems like engaging trolls just devolves into a shit throwing contest once you go beyond a single response.

For a lot of this troll nastness, you don't even have to respond.  Just downvote.  Or thumbs down.  But, yes, a person could also say "that just seems mean."  or "sepp holzer has accomplished a lot in decades and generously shared it, but you seem to be saying all of his work should be thrown out because you don't like his  _______.   Perhaps for a true comparison, you can point to who you think is better - or perhaps your own works?"  

How did the fouch video get thousands of upvotes instead of 100,000 downvotes?  

For what it's worth, I think permaculture isn't a household word because the vast majority of people in the US watch many hours of commercial television every day and thus have their entire world view molded by the advertisers, primarily pharmaceutical companies, petrochemical companies, and agrichemical/industrial food companies. Sustainable self reliance is anathema to these industries that rely on broad and ignorant dependence for their profit and they invest heavily in setting the parameters of "acceptable discourse".

People found out about tesla and tesla bought zero advertising.

People start to learn about permaculture and then they witness a big dose of ugly and drama and bow out.  

People start to take a leadership role in permaculture and then they get bombarded with hate - so they opt out.  

I've seen it over and over and over again.

I think that about 700 people did not attend PV1 because several of a permaculture leaders called the event "sexist" for having only one female keynote.   But their own event, later that year, had 75% male speakers.  

The negative ugliness within permaculture is a hundred times worse than any other industry I know of.   And not only should there be a thousand times more people passionate about permaculture, this website and my philosophies should be just a tiny part of it all.  

I think Sepp Holzer's work would be known by a hundred times more people right now if not for all the nasty that has been nurtured by the permaculture community.  

There it is.  I think it all boils down to our permaculture community encourages the nasty.  

I think that "haters gotta hate" is a baby version of "criminals gotta crime".   I think we are all agreed that we find "rapers gotta rape" absolutely unacceptable.  We will stand up and say "no!  that is NOT okay!"  And I think we need recognize that we need to say "no!  that is NOT okay!" to the haters.  Letting it slide is literally gonna kill us.  

All I'm asking for is the occasional mouse click.   I'm not asking for a kidney.  I'm not asking for a dollar.   I'm not asking for anybody to go to war - even an online war.  

When somebody is risking their name to share something - give them a "like" or upvote.  And if somebody is being a shit, give them a "dislike" or downvote.  Goodness then gets the attention of the public and nasty gets ignored.  

If we can turn the volume knob on the nasty down 99%, permaculture can finally get the airtime it has needed for decades.  

The fouch video is a tiny example of all the ugliness out there.   And so take a good look at all those "likes" on that shit.  And have a good long think of what impact that is having on permaculture as a whole.  And that is just a tiny spec.  


Here's another angle:  who the fuck am I?  Is it fair to say that I've worked hard to move permaculture forward?  Have I worked hard to make permaculture a household word?  Have I seen horrible ugliness directed to our leaders that I have removed from my site?  And I have downvoted on other sites?  Most of it from anonymous sources that our own permaculture community propped up for people to contemplate - to the tune of throwing out all of the decades of that work in a moment.   So might there be a little weight to my words?  Here is my real name.  I have helped millions of people.   And I have taken a significant slice out of my life to write this.   I stand firmly behind these words and I think they are extremely important.  

Clicks matter.  

I want decency.  Decency comes from clicks.  Please click for decency.  It really is that simple.  

Jay Angler wrote:So I'll ask the next question, "Why do trolls shit on pemaculture?"

From my first post:  https://permies.com/t/34441/permaculture-velocity

From a very successful guy who created an environment where people could actually work hard and prosper.  Jack Welch of GE.  

“The final relationship that cannot be ignored is with disrupters:

They are individuals who cause trouble for sport - inciting opposition
to management for a variety of reasons, most of them petty.

Usually these people have good performance - that's their cover - and so
they are endured or appeased.

A company that manages people well takes disrupters head-on.

First they give them very tough evaluations, naming their bad behavior
and demanding it change.

Usually it won't. Disrupters are a personality type.
If that's the case, get them out of the way of people trying to do their
jobs.

They're poison.”
― Jack Welch

Eric Thomas wrote:“The final relationship that cannot be ignored is with disrupters:

They're poison.”
― Jack Welch

Yes.  This.  

And with a simple click of a "like" or "dislike" button we can advance the words of wisdom and bury the poison.

have you considered not being a slumlord who literally collects barrels of human shit and doesn't even know how to compost them and is so thin-skinned that you blow up at the slightest criticism?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Permaculture/comments/77nm7e/two_years_under_a_permaculture_slumlord/

tommy stang wrote:have you considered not being a slumlord who literally collects barrels of human shit and doesn't even know how to compost them and is so thin-skinned that you blow up at the slightest criticism?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Permaculture/comments/77nm7e/two_years_under_a_permaculture_slumlord/

Speaking of "obey or else" - welcome to one guy's "or else."  

The nice thing about that post is that it gave us a framework to tell people what it's like to live here:

https://permies.com/t/73662/Dealing-community-drama-part

Man, you KNOW you are fucking awesome when people wanna talk shit about you but they can't do it without making it up.


Here's a great question:  what has that guy given to the greater permaculture community?  

>permies... big dose of drama...

Freedom of speech when people don't all understand it's value or how to do it.

Paul, not everybody thinks like you. Big truism, but it's true enough to remember it once in a while. You wouldn't be surprised if young children knocked over expensive stuff when playing ball in the living room right? They just don't give a shit or even have a clue. There are lots of things many, many people don't know or see the same way or value like you do. In some circumstances they will make a mess out of the garden. Some of that crap is very frustrating and evokes big anger. Probably we've all been there. Seems like it's especially bad when it looks like we're the target for somebody's fun and profit.

I've heard people that might be knowledgeable (20+ year and counting Buddhist monks) say that we should use anger for energy, not direction. Sounds good. I'm not sure I've ever done it real time though. But it's an idea.

A problem I have is that pretty much _every_ time I have gotten really really angry and let loose, it turns out I flattened the wrong person. Real bummer, that. It has made me kind of suspicious of being Right. Though I guess it might not look that way. <g>

I'm trying to avoid giving advice or stating "the way it is". It just looks to me like this all is pretty normal.

Some perspective of my personal method may be germane. It was a disappointing moment only about 20 years back when I finally realized  that I could not forever keep demanding and betting on everybody acting like they were honest humans with decent feeling and good sense.  I realized I just don't have the resources for that and even if I did, I had prior responsibilities and needed to not get messed up if I could help it. So I had to reposition, sorta speak, the place people held in my life. I can give people a chance, a window, while I get to know them and after that I had to accept it if they willingly turned themselves into practicing jerks - even though, eg., I knew they had an immortal soul and that they _could_ be a saint and a marvel comics hero. But if they acted like a jerk all the time, then , I had to respect their choice and treat them like jerks and move on. From then on, barring miracles, they get the "jerk" program when I have to deal with them. It's not something I like or find easy, but "playing around" with people that act like jerks is just not something I can afford any more. They want to be different,  they're going to have to do it somewhere else with somebody else, because I can no longer trust them in certain important ways. Not on my nickle. Next life maybe.


FWIW.
Rufus

Another way my husband and his mom would deal with haters (at least emotionally) was to mentally add "In my butt" to the end of every sentence the hater said. For example:

"I need you to promptly shelve all your paper in my butt."

"I think you're a horrible, mean person in my butt."

"How dare you say that in my butt."

"You really should garden this way in my butt."

Of course, this won't help stop the people from doing what they're doing. But, it does help on gain the courage to stand up to them.

Trolling is just another nasty word for gossip. We don't allow residents to gossip here because obviously people will form opinions based on that gossip before getting into a relationship with that person on their own. The person that wants to gossip is encouraged to go to that person directly and hash out whatever problems they have. That has taught me a lot and I have also learned you can't believe everything you read on the internet. I want to form relationships on my own, look at the information presented and form my own opinion on whether its valuable or not - things need to be adjusted for my own personal situation.

I'm sorry this has happened within the permaculture community that there are some many 'haters'. Life is too short.

That sir was beautiful....

I once inherited an employee who hated herself to death.  I am not saying she hated herself.  I am saying she was so full of hate for everything and everyone around her that she died.  Before the age of 50 she was found dead on her kitchen floor.

I think if I were in your position, I would have a very hard time not fighting back even more angrily. However, from a distance and with the luxury of it not being me whom they are attacking, I think letting it distract from all the other good things you are doing is counterproductive. I don't agree with everything you've ever said, but as someone who enjoys learning from you, appreciates your research and projects' educational and practical value, and having enough of a bullshit meter to see through the hate mongers, I would selfishly like it if trolls weren't such a pain in the ass for you so you could just focus on the awesome ideas you have and projects you are working on. I would probably be less tactful than you in your position. I think your insights are spot on about how the troll filter has improved the quality of of folks going to the Lab. I try to apply this mentality when I get excessively concerned about what others think of me. Mainly I just wanted to say that I appreciate the work you've done and how you've put yourself out there and seem to do your best to walk your talk. I know many others do too.

As owners of a lovely acreage which we bought completely untouched and have now worked and managed into a functioning homestead, I must say it is such a relief to find that we are not the only ones with haters. It has taken us nearly 6 years of 7-day workweeks composed of 18-hour workdays to finally arrive at a point where we are getting good returns like decent veggie harvests, a steady milk supply from the goats, rabbits reproducing exponentially, etc. I can tell you that there has not been a time during those 5 years, when we were not at some stage of being duped by or trying to rid ourselves of some leech, who later turned into a hater because they felt that their expectations were not properly met by OUR management of OUR resources which WE had worked our butts off for. Finally we are done with it. Done with being innocently generous to someone who later decides that free housing isn't enough, dinner twice a week isn't often enough, me having rules about my kids is "strange", open conversation isn't comprehensive enough, well the list just goes on and on. The last person we were forced to very tactfully remove from our lives, actually poisoned our food supply and my husband nearly died. He was luckier than 20 of my goats, all of the rabbits I had at the time, several ducks, and my kids' favorite cat. So I can tell you, what Paul is saying here is no joke. It's not unreasonable bitterness. It's not a narcissistic control freak trying to make the world revolve around him. It's someone who has had their life and their resources effed over time and again, who is trying to maintain their channels of generosity without having everything crash down on their heads yet again.
We've made some rules this year. We've cut some people out even though it was socially awkward to do so. In fact, I'd say we may have even gone a little overboard in that department. And yes, we did put a great big chain on the gate with a lock that stays locked. But is it worth it? Yes, yes it is. I don't mind being alive and knowing that my food doesn't contain anything that I didn't put into it myself. I don't mind waking up and knowing that my husband didn't possibly bleed to death during the night. I don't mind opening my phone and not having messages accusing me of all manner of wrongdoing that I didn't do. And I don't mind having my kids free to roam and learn at will without anyone telling me how I could care for them better.
So as they say, "Just 'cause I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me." Because sometimes, they are. I've lived it, and I'm with Paul on this one--give some hell back to the haters, they've earned it.
I know this is a rather old post, but I thought I'd share my two cents worth.

paul wheaton wrote:

Jay Angler wrote:So I'll ask the next question, "Why do trolls shit on permaculture?"

From my first post:  https://permies.com/t/34441/permaculture-velocity

Humans have a very strong attachment to beliefs. Their world is easiest to comprehend when they feel that their beliefs are universal. When some asshole comes along with crazy ideas about how much better things could be, everything goes haywire. No amount of potential bliss can compare to the blissful ignorance of belief, habits and routine. People have always needed to be dragged kicking and screaming toward betterment.

I've always loved being disruptive but I never had a thick enough skin to really accomplish anything significant on my own. I feel much more effective if I can position myself alongside a warrior that I respect. A warrior with a big shield that at least partially covers me while I fling small stones at those who aggressively oppose him/her.

I thing the computer makes folks brave.  
This and one other site are the only ones I visit.  
All the twitters and facebooks....Too stressful.
Maybe if you had to post your picture and address
 Folks just say stupid stuff, they don't know what they are talking about, they make threats they cannot back up.  
I will just keep dealing with people in person, keeps everyone acting like adults.

"Haters gotta hate"

I think the core of what I need to address in this thread is:


  no, they don't

  in fact, that hate is fucked up

  and, I think that hate is the beginning of truly awful things

  so i choose to stand against the hate

  i choose to strongly discourage the hate




The phrase "haters gotta hate" is the act of being permissive.  The act of encouraging it.

And if you allow it to grow in your community, you should expect it to be at your doorstep someday.   Only then it will be a thousand times bigger and a thousand times worse.

paul wheaton wrote:"Haters gotta hate"

I think the core of what I need to address in this thread is:


  no, they don't

  in fact, that hate is fucked up

  and, I think that hate is the beginning of truly awful things

  so i choose to stand against the hate

  i choose to strongly discourage the hate



The phrase "haters gotta hate" is the act of being permissive.  The act of encouraging it.

And if you allow it to grow in your community, you should expect it to be at your doorstep someday.   Only then it will be a thousand times bigger and a thousand times worse.

Maybe I'm just too gullible, but I happen to think that "random acts of kindness", "smiling at strangers", "giving away edible plants and veggies" are some of the ways to "stand against the hate".  I suspect it works better if it's done out of joy and love rather than charity - many people don't like to feel they need charity.

Jay,

When somebody says to you "haters gotta hate" what is your reaction?

I think this is what I'm trying to do:  I am saying that there is a huge problem with this phrase "haters gotta hate."   That we need to object to this phrase.  I wish for us to collectively give the stink eye to this phrase.   I believe that this phrase is the foundation of a lot of our societal problems.

This thread is dedicated to the idea of exposing the wicked underbelly of the phrase "haters gotta hate."