haters gotta hate and rapers gotta rape

I think that random acts of kindness are very, very important in creating a culture of generosity and a "helping instead of hating" mentality. But there will always be those who take your free plant and then complain that you didn't give them control of your whole garden, and then go on facebook and tell all of your friends and neighbors that you're a lousy person. IMO, the lesson here is that part of being nice is standing with other people who are nice by telling the jerkoffs to cut it out. This makes it clear that at least in our corner of the world, they will have to either stop being a jerkoff, or leave. If you saw a known pedophile at the playground, would you pass him with a friendly smile, or stand watch where the kids were playing until he moved on to better hunting grounds? You can't stop him from being a pedophile but you can make it clear that your neighborhood isn't easy pickins. I think we've forgotten as a culture that we have that power (and responsibility!) to control societal norms.

I think it's worth noting that in my neck of the woods (South America), crimes are not simply reported to the police and left there. If you are a pedophile, you get reported--and then the victims' mothers tell all of their friends and family, then some people go to their house and spraypaint "PEDOPHILE" on their gate. It seems kind of ghetto, but it's actually a fairly foolproof system--if there is only one person raising accusations, and everyone else says, "hey, but I know that guy and I have constant close personal contact with him proving that these accusations aren't true", then it is accepted that the single accuser has some sort of motive for lying/exaggerating/twisting reality. But if witnesses and experiences keep popping up, then the community as a whole looks at the proof and rejects that individual as a prospective family friend. The perp can still do business and exist in the neighborhood, but everybody knows to keep their kids away from him. He now knows that if one more incident comes to light, it won't be gate-painting next time, it'll probably be his house getting burned down. We have this power but we've just forgotten it. I think the call for more communal responsibility is a good one. Me defending myself isn't nearly as powerful as my (small) group of friends telling someone, "hey, we know her. She's not like that. Shut up or go away."

Please forgive my excess verbosity here. I'm done now :-D

Interestingly, the formal etymology of "haters gonna hate" identifies it as a positive statement originating in early-90s rap lyrics -- the rap equivalent of "there's always a critic" or "you'll never please everyone".

Etymology of Haters

Haters gonna hate is an informal way to express consolation, voice encouragement, or dismiss criticism. The phrase implies that criticism says more about the critic, or “hater,” than the person being criticized, i.e., that they are making judgements out of jealousy or their own negativity.
...
in Ice-T’s 1999 song “Don’t Hate the Player,” the rapper describes haters as “Actin’ like a brother done did somethin’ wrong / cause he got his game tight.” As these lyrics suggest, haters are fueled by jealousy and so their criticisms can be brushed off.
...
Although haters gonna hate began in hip-hop, its use has become widespread in mainstream culture. What began as a specific dismissal of criticism morphed into a positive affirmation and an exhortation to do things your own way, to be yourself in spite of what other people may say.

Hey Paul,

I empathise with you,
Let me ask you what is it you desire most!
Do you desire do good in the world?
Or do you desire for people to think Good of you?

It does not matter how many lives you save, how many inventions you create, How hard you have worked!
To many people It does not matter if you bled for them or how much you have done for them!
Because its about them and not you!

Do not waste any of your precious time trying to restore your reputation or trying to convince people of who you are!
It will Eat you up! Many of the greatest Minds of all time have fallen to this problem!
Nikola Testa is a Obvious example! the last decades of his life were essentially wasted because he wanted people to know what he did!

Do not waste resources or put any more thought to trying to convince people of truth or trying to argue lies!
Just do Good work that you are passionate about!

You know you are a good man, that should be enough!

I also believe you to be a good man!

Your work on thermal systems is impressive!

I am keen to see more of your work!

Our forms of communication have changed.  And are changing.  

At the same time, permaculture is still not a household word.  Why?

I feel a powerful need to infect the brains of a billion people with permaculture thoughts.  As I work and work and work, I can clearly see what is gumming up the works.  I saw it clearly many years ago when I gave this keynote presentation:



My message today is the same as back then:    the people holding back permaculture are trolls and corporate trolls ...  but more than any of those ...  it's our own community - people that say they are keen on permaculture but they constantly shame other permies.  

Shortly after that keynote, there was a PDC offered close by right after the event.  A guest instructor arrived and introduced herself to the class.  A student asked "did you attend the event?" and the guest instructor said "no because of the sexism" and the class erupted telling her that there was no sexism and it was wrong of her to believe there was.  

The purpose of this thread is an attempt to improve our set of philosophies so that permaculture can reach more brains.  This means that we need to discourage the poor behavior that is holding it back and encourage the good behavior that moves it forward.

PV1 was a magnificent event.  600 attendees.  I think that about 1000 people did not attend because of this weird idea of sexism.  I suspect that if attendance was closer to 1200 people, we would still be having these conferences and permaculture would grow!

Do we point to those 1000 people and say "haters gotta hate"?  I wonder if 200 of us encountered several of those people in the months before PV1 and heard their "sexism" prattle and thought "I definitely don't want to get into that with them - I'm just gonna be quiet." So the problem continues.

I suppose this thread is about a call for goodness and decency.  If we don't break out of the mire that we are in, permaculture cannot grow.


As I said at the start of this thread:

permaculture would now be a hundred times further along if not for all the haters.

And the summary:

Please support the people that are creating and building good things.  Please support the people that are trying to help others and build a better world.   Please support the people that are taking the big risks to move things forward.  

If you see nasty stuff and you don't want to get involved, usually there a way to anonymously downvote or alert the moderators.  

If you are lucky enough to find somebody that is authentically good, please support them and defend them.  Pure goodness and decency is rare and desperately needs amplification.


Haters hate because too many people encourage it and not enough people discourage it.   You shape the world you live in.  Please shape it to be something beautiful.

Alex,

I think that the function of this thread is to inspire folks to:

     - stop saying "haters gotta hate" because it is not true and

               o the phrase encourages hate
               o if we embrace this passive approach to haters, we are forever stuck
               o we need to create an environment that ACTIVELY encourages goodness and decency

     - openly support wholesome permaculture efforts
     - openly discourage efforts to discourage wholesome permaculture efforts
     - even regular use of thumbs up / thumbs down (upvotes and downvotes) make a difference

Thanks for being encouraging to me.   I hope you encourage a lot of wholesome permies every day!

paul wheaton wrote:

If you are lucky enough to find somebody that is authentically good, please support them and defend them.  Pure goodness and decency is rare and desperately needs amplification.

This is such a simple concept and yet so hugely important. I have been close to a few great men I think, good and decent men, yet who never got the support and defense that they deserved because they didn't play to social norms. Their form of dress, or their way of speaking, or maybe just their unwillingness to go to all the parties or kiss the asses that presented themselves. So people judge them to be unworthy of alliance because they don't want to be identified with a social pariah. I won't say that my record of support and defense was always perfect...but I am proud to have finally learned loyalty in my life. And the value of standing for what I believe about a person or idea that has proven their goodness, even if it makes other people squirm.

People love to look back in time at those great men who changed history, and shame the people of that time for not appreciating their genius...yet they are too busy being socially acceptable now to realize that they also are passing by the geniuses of our time because they aren't normal enough.

I like what Sepp Holzer says in the introduction to "Sepp Holzer's Permaculture" : "The fact that I have not let myself be intimidated and do not stay quiet just to please people has given me a reputation for being a 'rebel farmer'. The fact that it is actually necessary to become a 'rebel' to run a farm in harmony with nature is really very sad!"

I don't even know if there's anything else to be said after that.

Marie Abell wrote:I like what Sepp Holzer says in the introduction to "Sepp Holzer's Permaculture" : "The fact that I have not let myself be intimidated and do not stay quiet just to please people has given me a reputation for being a 'rebel farmer'. The fact that it is actually necessary to become a 'rebel' to run a farm in harmony with nature is really very sad!"

This is gold.  

Ouuff. This really hits hard.

One reason I love permies - and permaculture - is the fact that we are all choosing to engage and create a NEW culture.

Paul, you've done outstanding work - in ways I cannot even fully fathom. You are not only intelligent, resourceful, determined, passionate, but you are also KIND.
You aren't this fake polite nice. You show real kindness to others, and to yourself, and to the permaculture mission. You stand up for what you believe in. You've even used your own identity as a shield for other permies and permaculture ventures.

I think asking others to help take out those arrows, is completely fair.

Hate should not be met back with hatred, but it should also not be dismissed.
Hate is abusive behavior towards others and even towards the individual who is expressing it.

Hatred is often a symptom of deep wounds, of envy, of jealousy, of greed, of fear --

The ironic thing is that permaculture is actively trying to heal those deep wounds of the human population, and the wounds inflicted on the Earth as a result of them.

The way that I've been addressing Haters in my own life, is to take a deep breath - to center myself first. To remind myself of who I am, that I am not what these Haters are pushing onto me.

I then acknowledge them (if they are or said they were friends), and let them know that the way they are behaving towards me is disrespectful.

I give them a short explanation of how they are disrespecting me. I then give them the chance to see their error and apologize.

If a person chooses to continue to Blast me, instead of Boost me - even if we have disagreements or opposing views, I then end the relationship. I stop engaging with them, block them, and move forward.

In the case that these are strangers, I often either do not engage (Since they are looking for attention and actively trying to steal my precious time / energy) and block them.

In the case that I see hatred or close-mindedness or abusive behavior in the world or on the internet - I do my best to address it by saying 'Hey - That is not cool.' or downvoting.

We are social creatures - we rely on each other to keep one another in balance. Being able to have civil discussions and disagreement that is focused on conflict resolution is the ideal.
However, some people have no concern for resolution - they simply want to create chaos and cause pain because they are in pain and it hurts them to see others happy.

Humans are always creating culture. I personally have a greater fear of other humans than I do of wild animals.
Animals and plants have a way of natural respect / reciprocity that not all humans seem to have developed.

In this way, I feel a connection with humans that are able to develop deep bonds with Nature - Those that are focused on spreading seeds, spreading joy, and boosting happiness without the sole agenda of profit or ego. Profit and ego should be tools utilized to realize the goals of Permaculture, in our current paradigm of market economy.  

---

In this war of culture , I am reminded of a childhood game that was played during recess out in the clover fields.

Red Rover ; where two opposing groups of people formed lines facing each other, linking arms with the person next to them.
Chanting and calling over a single person from the opposing side - which would mean they must break from their line and charge forward to the side that called them.
If they were unable to break the chain of arms in the opposing line, they would become absorbed into that line.
If they were able to break the chain, they were able to choose a person from that line to come back to their original line.

It wasn't using words or debate - it was just sheer force of one against the collective strength of many.

I feel like this happens now on the internet in ways - through the use of upvotes or downvotes.

A favorite quote of my late father-in-law:

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men should do nothing.”

(Original quote generally credited to Edmund Burke)

I feel like I use this pseudo-blog space to share a few intangible "bricks to build a better world.   There is the bit about the word "should" and another about "greed."  And "Don't be a dick, be a dick."  Through these, I hope I am inserting bits of thought that will, when all added up, improve our overall permaculture velocity.

So if you ever hear the phrase "haters gotta hate" I hope you instantly think "rapers gotta rape" and then SAY "I stand against haters.  They do NOT have to hate. They are trolls who are impeding goodness and decency from flourishing."

If you witness trolling, stand up for goodness and decency.

Permaculture is suppressed because of a hundred hates a day across the internet.  We can only move forward when thousands of permies stand against the trolling and stand again the hate.   Even if the only thing those people do is spread anonymous upvotes and downvotes.

This TED talks given by Gina Martin is quite inspiring.



On the surface it is about women needing help from Good Men, to change a law - that should have already been there in the first place.

On the deeper level, it is every Good Person needing to stand up and take action against Abusive behavior when we see it - that we ARE society - and we create society.

It is about those with privilege to utilize it to assist those who are fighting for the same thing ; Justice and Goodness.

Human Rights extends to every human regardless of gender, and it isn't party politics - it is based on Morals and Values.

When trolls are allowed to roam free, they wreck havoc. If we only ignore them, we might save ourselves a hassle - but we are also bystanding - allowing their rampage to affect other Good people.

One downvote may not have a huge effect, but millions of downvotes certainly do. Just as a single snowflake will melt quickly on its own, an million snowflakes can cause an avalanche.

Thank you Paul and volunteer moderators who work so hard to keep Permies as a positive space for growth and keeping the trolls out.

Hey All,

I fully support this forum and I agree with the reasons behind it!

I simply wish to suggest wisdom in dealing with "the hate"!

"Apply self regulation and accept feedback!"

Question:
What do you define as Hate, What exactly should not be tolerated?

Next question:
Define how it would be tolerated and also not tolerated?

----
"Apply self regulation and accept feedback!"
----

Self regulation is good to practice at all times - although especially in the case of when another person's aim may indeed be to knock you off center and deregulate you.

Accepting feedback relies on a foundation of trust , good will, and a sense of nobleness that can set aside the Ego and take a good hard look at the self.
This is hard to apply to situations were one (or a group) of people may be in a state of offense towards another person (or group).

I think it is important to note that Paul seems to mainly be focused on Haters that spread their hate through the means of online communications.
These areas are harder to mediate, raises the drama level through bystanders, and often is cloaked by the offenders in a shield of anonymity.

In the field of life off-line, the approach and handling of trolls / bigots / haters / etc., is different.

----
Question:
What do you define as Hate, What exactly should not be tolerated?
----

Hatred in its most simple terms is defined as 'Intense Dislike or Ill Will'.

The issue is not just someone feeling Hatred - it is their abusive behavior towards others, that is fueled by Hatred.
Which may in turn be fueled by Envy, Greed, Jealousy, Revenge, Fear --

I would say Ill Will , is the enactment of such negative feelings towards their targets. Targets that are often exhibiting the opposite emotions and behaving on them ;
Such as Love, Freedom, Joy, Bliss, Excitement, Revelry, Cooperation, Success --

----
Next question:
Define how it would be tolerated and also not tolerated?
----

How to apply Justice is a question humans have been asking themselves before the Dawn of civilization.

I personally don't think it needs to even be tolerated. Toleration is allowing something to continue. It is passively endorsing it.

What Paul suggested was giving a 'Downvote'.

This might seem like a small action - but given by enough people or the right person that holds high esteem , it is extremely effective.

Anecdotal case in point ;

A women cut off a man behind her while driving, to eagerly switch lanes without taking time to assess her surroundings.
The man passes the women, and instead of yelling or flipping the bird at her -
He makes a gesture of a down turned thumb.
She admits how she immediately felt embarrassed and remorseful for her behavior, more so than if he had displayed a show of rage or anger.

Instead of showing rage, falling into a cycle of revenge, or giving overt attention to someone whose behavior we are not happy with ,

Show or say to them the distaste in a clear way , (Down thumbs or Down vote) or say 'That is not cool.'

If behavior is continued or is just terrible to begin with (Like say, arson or murder) , complete banning / blocking / ostracism has been effective in civilizations for centuries.

If you show anger to someone, they aren't not going to be receptive to self reflection - they will become defensive.
If you show them they have not earned your respect, and in fact are in danger of losing complete access - they will more likely be open to reflecting on their behavior.

This is why 'Time-Outs' are so effective on children, rather than 'Spanking'.

This forum has been an excellent and enlightening read.  I wonder if sometimes people are backed into a corner by the terminology that is being used and they actually see no way out.

I, for example will never use the word "equality" in a discussion because to me it has a divisive and discriminatory effect on society.  Some use the word  as in "positive discrimination" with regard to the feminist push for androgenic recognition.  It discounts friends who are transgender or who have non-binary DNA gender syndromes such as kleinfelders Syndrome.

I always and push to use "equity" which, to my mind, is what the real discussion should be premised on.  Equity is about respect, acknowledging that each person has a right to their opinion and to share it, but, I have the equitable right to say that is bullshit!  Likewise, I expect that when expressing my opinion some one might say bullshit!  Equality leads to quotas and I am not into quotas because I do not want someone chosen from a quota to design my car or the next fleet or aircraft.  I want the most competent person to to be the designer and to be the lead engineers.  In any quota system, those outside are disenfranchised.  In embracing equity, I am free to put the most competent team together irrespective of any personal attributes they have or any prejudices I may have  - overt or subconscious.  I had a female friend who after being promoted confided that she was unsure if she was promoted on merit or because she filled a number in a quota system.  Self doubt is a destroyer of confidence and can lead to self loathing and the need move into team destructive behaviours.

It has taken me a long while to understand that in an equitable society, I do not have to put up with that which is not equitable but by the same token, if I want to belong to a particular group, I need to follow the group rules.  The biggy is that the group rules only apply to that group and not to people outside it.  It is therefore unacceptable to do upskirting, be violent or abusive in general society because of normal social morés.  And these should be punished by society.  If they go unpunished, get the law changed so they are.  Likewise, if the current standards are illogical, not based on sound practice/ science or plain discriminatory, then dump the standard.

In society the biggest driver for most people is money not survival - But survival is a primitive drive so money is equated to survival.
With Permies, the drive is survival but the corollary is sustaining and improving so I can achieve most if Maslow's hierarchy of needs.  Whether self-actualisation needs to be obtained is a  discussion for the more academic folk.  But I do not need money to achieve it so I am a deviant in that I deviate from what the mainstream sees as normal - get up, go to work, make money, spend it,  go home  and repeat for 40 years. It is not hard to see why Premies and permaculture gets a bad wrap.  It destroys the tenet of corporate greed, creates self sufficiency, works as a collective for personal and environmental success all without 40 years of mainstream normal and often in harmony within the collective group (s)

Equality, trolling, rape, bullying and belittling are merely tools for advantage, individually or collectively.  A long while ago, I distilled in my mind that there are two ways to climb the ladder of success.  The first is to stab the person above you in the back and they fall off the ladder.  When you climb up to that position you have no way of knowing how to do the job because you do not have a mentor at that level so you ultimately fail and quit and this also fall off the ladder.  The second way is to mentor the person under you so they can do your job and when they are competent, you then have a choice, either progress to the next level and be mentored or step off the ladder to seek a new ladder to climb.

Being a contributor on Permies, I am part of  community and as such have a set of rules to follow.  I affectionately call them RAPs (Rules According to Paul).  And on the odd ocasion have been RAPed over the knuckles.  But you get that so lets move on.

The thing that strikes me as the greatest positives is that as a community member, I can be mentored and be a mentor.  I can ask questions and get answers or I can answer questions.  My opinions are respected by receiving thumbs up or receiving apples or if I screw up, get a thumbs down or get an apple core.  Or, and it has happened, have a post deleted.

Haters are probably just individuals who cannot contribute so need to try to pull it down so they can look like "big people"in the eyes of their peers.  But who would want to be in that peer group?

I stumbled across this thread again today ...

Could this be the most important thing I have ever written?


I suppose a conversation could go

"Haters gotta hate"

"Do you think rapers gotta rape"

"Hell no!"

"Then why do you think hate is okay?"



Nip it in the bud.


Permaculture cannot grow in a toxic environment.

Recently on a bus I heard a very young nasty male rapidly bring a brand new bus driver to tears on her very first solo drive, over clearly posted bus rules. At “F*** You” I leaped up & (in my very best “I am your mother and you are going to die” voice) said quietly “Stop hassling the driver and turn your music down”. He did, but did a classic teen deflection “it’s not music”. Me; quietly “whatever noise you’re making, keep it down”. Which he did, but launched into “My 1st amendment rights - -“ rant. I rolled my eyes and sat down. Refused to interact. He worked himself up to “when we get to the transit station I’m getting security. You’ll never ride a bus again”. I replied “Yeah and I can call the cops”. His little sidekick “Dude she’s on the phone!”. Very next stop they scurried off. The point of this story? Bad behavior just gets worse. Until someone calls them on it. Not on the bus I’m riding. (I’m not HIS mother but The Voice is a potent weapon).

Talyn Crafts wrote:Anecdotal case in point ;

A women cut off a man behind her while driving, to eagerly switch lanes without taking time to assess her surroundings.
The man passes the women, and instead of yelling or flipping the bird at her -
He makes a gesture of a down turned thumb.
She admits how she immediately felt embarrassed and remorseful for her behavior, more so than if he had displayed a show of rage or anger.

That is the most insightful thing I have heard in a long while. Bravo!

"First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win."  Mahatma Ghandi.
" Whosoever strikes you on the cheek, turn the other cheek also." Jesus the Christ
These two heroes of mine had no trouble getting their message out. Even now if you Google Ghandi the gossip is prominent. And how often is Jesus' name used as a curse?
Maybe there are haters in the world to help us appreciate those who love us. Love you Paul.

"One way I think of these forums is that I wish for it to be the place where we grow the future leadership of permaculture.  

One way I think of my place (wheaton labs) is that I wish for it to be the place where we grow the future leadership of permaculture.

Nobody else is doing what you're doing, not at the scale you're doing it...

I'm happy to spread the word.

j

Thank you Talyn for that talk by Gina Martin. I hadn't come across it before.
I'm guilty of letting things slide sometimes, but sometimes I also try and see the bigger picture. In my shop I often hear both sides of an incident and you'd think the people involved are talking about completely different events - both think that the other is wrong. Maybe both are! If you want to fit in somewhere, and you have an initial misunderstanding it can really set you back, but there is no point being angry, you need to turn that anger into action. Not to fight, but to create the change you want to see.
For me that is what is great about Permies. We do not reflect the hate and anger but try and show the positive things that can be done by normal people to make the world - their world and our world - better. Without hairshirts and poverty food, but with home grown goodness and gifts hand made with love. We can't change the past, only the future.