Roberto pokachinni wrote:
I stopped being interested in prepping and survivalism. My life is much more rewarding now just being interested in permaculture.
Interestingly, the step from survivalism to permaculture is not a huge leap, but it is a significantly different emotional situation/investment. What I mean is that Permaculture has as it's goal the development of a permanent culture, but it is doing this to build a better world by design for the long term. We do this, in my view, because it's high time we took into account our ecological footprint and our inherent ability to live on this planet without harming it. This is an intellectual and perhaps for some a spiritual decision, but it is not based on fear. Fear is grasping. Permaculture is about giving back. Therein lies the dichotomy, the split, in my thinking on it.
Survivalism might have much the same basic designs, but the reason for doing so is, in my opinion, basically selfish, but it might not feel that way to the person doing it. I say that it is selfish, not as a bad thing, but because it is based on personal self preservation, and that is based on a emotional response to the fear of theft, destruction, loss, violence et cetera, rather than on the larger needs of caring for the Earth or the greater long term humanitarian needs to build a better world. The survivalism mentality is never ending, and as such there is no relaxation, it is like a rat on a wheel in a cage, spinning away, and never getting anywhere really productive for even the person doing it. That's just how I see it, from my own experience. When we make decisions out of fear we are not making our best decisions. That is flight or fight. It is high stress, and shock, and lashing out sort of response to the situation. In contrast, we need that relaxed feeling to make better decisions, and figure out why it is that we really want what we are thinking we want, and coming up with a plan to make it happen that makes better sense for our emotional self.
Permaculture might still be selfish in a way; since a person is often doing this so that they can have their needs met, primarily. The difference, I think, for Tyler, but certainly for myself, is that with this slight change in emotional investment, there are rewards that are present that are less tangible than this tenacious but inexhaustible chasing down of every last bit of fear with bits of preparedness in myriad directions.
Survivalism seems to have the idea that it can alleviate the presence of risk to these numerous threats. But that, in my view, is a myth. These problems are not surmountable on the personal level by each person having everything. It's a nice goal, in a way, to be completely self sufficient, but it is not likely or easy to accomplish. Not that permaculture is easy, per se, but it is not fraught with the pressing down demand that all of these things be done NOW in order to push the fear of these unknown and myriad potential problems away. Life is not without risk, and never can be. We can chose to make our lifeways flow in conjunction with natural laws, and help and hope others catch on to the positive changes, and that's it.
My advice: Do what you do not out of fear but out of an expanding view of giving. Do what you can to build resilient systems, in all aspects of your life, including building community so that you are networking and have more collective resources and the ability to meet your and communal needs.
I agree wholeheartedly. I'm not trying to find solutions to every problem that might arise, but at least be ready and self reliant during hard times
Nick Kitchener wrote:Personally, I think you are asking the wrong question because it drives you to a set of solutions that are all inherently flawed in that under a ZA scenario might is right.
Maybe a better question would be "In the event of a zombie apocalypse, what can I do to make me and my family indispensable?"
History shows that in times of feudal social structures (a warlord controls a territory) the general population form a mutually beneficial relationship with the "strong man". The mad max scenario even conforms to this although it's not highlighted in the movies so much.
The warlord and their enforcers need supplies, shelter, essential services, and a certain amount of luxury to maintain control over a territory. They get these things from the citizenry who live within the territory they control. In return, the citizenry gets protection, peace, and insurance against disaster (for example the warlord will often provide storehouses for excess non-perishable food and materials).
The warlord makes sure they take care of their people, because if they don't, the people will leave and seek refuge under the protection of a competitor or they will not support the warlord when a competitor attacks as they are seen as a liberating force. Sure a warlord can bully the citizenry like in the movies but in reality this tactic doesn't scale.
So in a ZA scenario you will be a warlord (unlikely), a soldier, or a "surf". Since you're in this forum, the chances are you would rather be a surf. So the trick to being a successful surf is to provide / produce things that the warlord values highly. In this way you will place yourself in a position to receive special care and attention since you will be considered a valuable asset within the territory, and these warlords control territory because of the assets that reside in them.
I wouldn't think so. I'm thinking if bad comes to worse, it might be necessary to build a stone castle sort of like medieval castles with arrows, spears, and whatever is left of guns and ammo to defend your fort.
Roberto pokachinni wrote:Hi Tatianapretty much all (or the vast majority) of the information that you are seeking can be searched and found on Permies. The goal of this site, the way I see it, is to disseminate this information over the largest % of the population, in the shortest time period. This will result in a much more resilient global society in general, which is what is needed in order to survive natural or political disasters.
And if you had the possibility to buy a new piece of land and build everything on it from scratch, how would you design it?
I realize this is a lot of info in one post/thread, but if you can point in the right direction of where to obtain some of this info, that would be great, too!
As far as designing and developing a piece of land that can feed and house you indefinitely, I would recommend looking at This webpage, and consider ordering their first book, Miraculous Abundance. This is not a 'how to' book, but more of a memoir of how they came across their various ideas, but the inspiration towards very efficient permacultural food production is without parallel, and they give a list of the resources that connected them to this path of sustainability. It is a good start to read such a book, not only because it is full of great ideas-but because it is super positive-and then follow up researching the things that they are referring to. Their next book, due out in French later in 2018 with an English translation to follow, is going to be all about detailing the specific techniques and tools that they use. I will order the English version as soon as it is available. In the meantime, Elliot Coleman's 4 season Harvest (available through inter-library loan) is a good place to start on figuring out how to grow in this direction. Elliot bought land from Helen and Scott Nearing, whose own book Living The Good Life is also available through the library, and is well worth the read to figure out what you really should be focusing on.
Another thing that I would suggest is to take baby steps. There is a mind frame that comes with being truly prepared to deal with anything, and that has to be developed like a muscle that is weak. Our society is full of weaklings in this regard, myself still included. But I am developing that sort of mind, and as I do I notice just how far I need to go. One thing that helps to begin to develop this mentality is not to consider so much of what we need, but what we can do without. We are incredibly spoiled in our culture, and have many 'needs' that are not needs at all. Most of the global population does not need the majority of the stuff we have, and in fact our lifestyle and abundant consumption was foreign to our own quite recent ancestors.
As an example, I met my own needs in a small cabin without a vehicle, propane, electrictiy, running water, et cetera, for a couple years on what was considerably below the poverty line as far as income went. I lived like a king, since I had a roots and greens low maintence garden, a seafood harvesting permit, and the skills to get wood and fix a bicycle. I also was developing skills that would allow me to camp permanently as a nomad in the forest, if it came down to having to leave my cabin for some unknown political or natural reason.
By lowering our expectations of what we need, we gain massively in the time that we have to consider everything else. I sat a lot in my hammock reading, and did a lot of walking on the beach and in the forest. My life improved considerably by 'doing without' much of the things that people in our culture tend to think they need. My job, as a small project carpenter and landscaper could be done with a bike and trailer, and was going to be needed even if the unstable thing known as 'the economy' collapsed.
Thanks I'll check these out!
I think most people who are into permaculture have a certain frame of mind, they see the bigger picture, they always plan ahead, they live smartly. So they are already prepared to solve problems of livelihood. They already have a strong mind.
Dan Grubbs wrote:I agree with Nick in that I believe the better question isn’t about making one’s property self-sufficient. The better question is about making the people of a homestead self-sufficient. If we’re talking about surviving independently and not being assimilated into some type of collective, which I believe is more aligned with the independent mentality, then I offer an alternative approach to the survivalist scenario.
This alternative is needed when either a civilian force or a government force is, at some point, going to come for your land and operation. The timing of this depends on the duration of the SHtF scenario and your proximity to population centers. No, contrary to what tens of thousands of survivalists believe, you will not be able to out gun or defend your property should a motivated force leadership decides they want your operation. Even if several well-armed families band together and train properly, regional authorities or even a civilian force will only attempt to take your property with superior firepower. Yes, you may encounter a scouting group, but once the larger force or authority learns of your resources, they will come with force enough to take what they want. Dying does not constitute successful defense of your property.
You could possibly make yourself and your family indispensable in some way. But, growing food and managing animals is not an indispensable set of skills. I know that may bristle some feathers here at Permies. But, those skills will already be in the attacking force or within the collective supporting them. Yes, these are good skillsets to have, but you are not indispensable as one farmer. You need to find something else. Even then, however, you are at the mercy of the warlord or local government leader. That seems to me to be contrary to the independent objective we’re discussing.
My thinking is that to truly survive and not be subject to some power or force is to be mobile. One writer refers to it as going gypsy. I’m not referring to bugging out. Bugging out is usually to get you to a planned destination, which then you are again subject to the external force, no matter how well trained your family is. Your food supply has to be mobile. Since you can only carry very little food and water, your ability to forage is key. These are some of the best skills you can acquire on your homestead now, more important than than say, auto mechanic. You don’t have the ability to preserve food on the go, so you need skills at foraging and scrounging. In addition to foraging, in my opinion, goats are one of the best mobile options for fresh food supply (dairy, meat). I think goats are better choices than small cattle or sheep, which are both more difficult to move clandestinely and more picky about their feed. Goats are good foragers and can be better managed in a mobile situation as you have to move from place to place to avoid external forces. Goats eating leaves from trees are theoretically going to provide more mineral nutrients than purely grass-fed grazers – arguably.
Once the external force has either exhausted the resources of your property or lost interest they may leave it. You may have an opportunity to return. However, your risk of discovery is pretty high once you plant yourself back there. Going gypsy means that your value system is not based in your land but in the people of your family or mobile group. Where you are on any given day serves as either a resource or as cover; it is not your home. Your home is defined by the people you’re with, not a physical location. Choosing when to move is based on external threats and resource availability and your family or group’s ambulatory nature. Going gypsy is on foot. Vehicles are loud, require fuel and maintenance, and most require some kind of roadway and are easily spotted. Your homestead is whatever you can carry or lead.
Not everyone will be cut out for gypsy survival. Some will submit themselves to some authority or new collective. Some will resist an external force and may or may not survive. Some will be in a remote enough area where they may not ever encounter an external force. For the rest of us, I believe only by evasion will independent individualists survive. In my opinion, mobility is the way to survive a widespread SHtF scenario.
I agree with this! 100%!
Sonja Draven wrote:I agree with Tyler and Roberto.
I enjoy reading memoirs and I have read several about people (fundamentalist Mormons in this case - although the specific religion matters less than the "apocalypse" mentality) who spent their entire lives focused 100% on preparing for the end times. Having more children than they could support. Living in fear and poverty. Stockpiling at the expense of pleasure / joy. Alienating friends and family. I would rather be somewhat unprepared IF it happens than look back on my life seeing a wasteland of joy. (Or having someone hundreds of years from now reading my journals and shaking their head because of the waste I had made of my life - and the end times STILL hadn't come.)
That is just unwise all around.
Tyler Ludens wrote:
Terri Matthews wrote:some buckets of grain.
I bought a bunch of dry beans and rice that we never ate. The beans got so old they wouldn't even sprout when I finally threw them into the garden. So my suggestion is to store food you actually eat and eat it regularly, rotating it to keep the supply as fresh as possible. Otherwise you might just waste a bunch of money like I did.
We never did like to eat dry beans.
Beans are really hard to prepare in their dry form. They cause gas. I don't even like their taste. The various green beans are another matter, though. And yeah, I agree, store supplies of what you eat and rotate it to keep it fresh.
Anne Miller wrote:A few things that I have done that I have not seen mentioned:
Learn to identify all the edible plants that are growing on your property. You might not want to eat them now but in a disaster they might look more appetizing.
Learn how to can and to preserve meat. There are several way to preserve meat other than canning; learn to make jerkey, corned beef, ham and other preserving techniques.
Learn about medicinal herbs and how to use them. Learn first aid. Learn how to stop bleeding, sew up deep cuts, take care of burns, set broken bones, etc. Learn how to take care of dental issues for when there is no dentist.
Get or better make a good first aid and dental kit.
Invest in some "how to " books for when the internet is not available. Or get some ebooks and print them out now.
Good advice! Thanks!
Chris Kott wrote:Prepper culture is fear-based, and it spreads by compounding people's fears. If you feed it, it will surely grow.
So if people enter into preparations for a survival scenario intent on the absolute certainty that everyone will be out to get them for their food, and they then spread that fear, they are actively encouraging a culture wherein this is acceptable behaviour; it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
For those completely sold on that as an eventuality, it makes more sense to train with and stockpile guns and ammo, map out the homes and bug-out locations of as many preppers as one can fool into divulging such sensitive information, and raid them all, eliminating the competition.
Now don't get me wrong. I am going to need firearms for protection, but probably for my livestock and crops, and from wildlife more often than ravening hordes.
I don't understand the fear porn some people disguise as prepping. It makes more sense to homestead, in my opinion. It involves much of the same preparation, but if you leave out the emotional baggage of fear and hostility to those with whom you could form community, you have more room to store food.
Yes, the purpose of this thread is to learn homesteading techniques and being completely off the grid. An apocalypse is just an excuse.
Bryant RedHawk wrote:Every time this scenario is run (just about every psychology department at every university has run the doomsday scenario at least twice) it turns out that the further you live from the city, the less likely you would be to ever see any "roving hordes" or even "marauding bands" of city dwellers.
The reasons for this happening in the computer models are; gasoline shortages force city people to hoof it, city people tend to stick to their city and so localize their destruction.
I live far enough out, in a fairly inaccessible area (off the beaten path) and even the delivery people tell me they had trouble finding us the first time.
The few people that do live "near by" have the same mind set (who are you looking for? why are you here?) and we all tend to have side arms and concealed carry permits.
So we all really don't worry about such a thing happening. We live in an area with a known tornado track, the last one to hit our area was in 2014 and killed seven of our community.
Since that time, over 500 families have left the area, so our population is falling below or near 2000.
Just about everyone has a well, even if they are hooked up to "city water".
I think it is a lot like the Hank Williams Jr. song "A country boy can survive", we have the skill sets already, we don't depend completely on grocery store for our food, and we tend to be survivors, willing to do what is necessary, when necessary.
This is not fear it is simply practicality, fear is for those city folks who think they can "go country" to survive. If that should happen they will be more likely to do themselves in because they are the types who succumb to panic.
I think eventually people will find a way through all the country paths. And it will probably be those "independent" hunter gatherers armed to their teeth.
I'll reply later to the rest of the posts and make a more coherent post later. Thank you all so much! There's so much good info already!
ANY nuclear exchange IS significant. There are no nice bombs of any sort.
Now, on to zombies!!! I was thinking all day about raising bees underground. Could not find any info online in a brief search. Going to ask some very experienced beekeepers if they know of anything like that. Seems like it would be possible but I have to wonder why. If the outside area is contaminated who wants to eat that honey? If there was even a single living flower within their flight radius of several miles. There are many types of bees that live underground naturally. But the concept of traditional honey bees kept in a bunker or something similar is interesting. I believe it wouldn't be much problem assuming they had open access to the world above & there was safe food & water for them.
Tatiana ... figure out (several methods is best) how to get water from your well but also predetermine several secure walking routes to the lakes & rivers. Didn't say it would be easy. Edwards Aquifer is highly stressed already. Don't depend on that.
Someone mentioned eating the weeds. I have found this site very useful for many years. http://www.eattheweeds.com/
Entertaining & informative book author & professional zombie prep insight. https://survivalblog.com/preparedness-notes-friday-july-13-2018/
Know that someone has your back. Ever since Hurricane Katrina. We've provided serious relief & security at every major natural disaster since. Many small ones too. Several man made disasters. Ferguson comes to mind. Getting better each time. We aren't playing games with zombies of any sort. Not on our watch!!! Active military, vets, police, fire, medical, and all other first responders might be particularly interested. There is great info relevant to prepping & anti zombie at the link below. Check out the CPT info for sure. Might be difficult to find that type of info online elsewhere. Linked it to open about Houston hurricane relief since it is close to Tatiana. What happened there is we took in some supplies & medics. Then the gangs started breaking into warehouses & hijacking 18 wheelers enroute to Houston. We were asked to put an end to that. We did. We were first to arrive in Puerto Rico & get 'er done. By far. Don't believe most of what you read or hear in mainstream media. It's just not true or accurate. Sure, we upset some powerful people. We call out their BS & hold them accountable. https://oathkeepers.org/?s=houston+hurricane&searchsubmit=true&searchsubmit=
To me zombies is a convenient word to include all the bad things that can happen along the road of life. Some certainly will at some point or another. I'm old now & spent all my life preparing for zombies in one way or another. I've been through some extreme bad things. Some intentionally & some not. I've learned from them all. All excellent posts so far. No doubt I'll be back for more comments.
All one really needs is water, food, & protection from the elements. Every other material thing is luxury. Survival is mostly about knowledge, skills, true friends, & having a plan. Not some fantasy plan, a realistic valid plan. Several of them. Disasters can sometimes be non-events if you're doing it right. My #1 advice is get out of the big cities now, while you can. Those won't be pretty when the extreme zombies arrive. I believe most permies can relate to that. At least I'm fairly sure most of you are not expecting participation trophies:)
Emma Carver-Barrass wrote:Well slap me sideways and call me Edmund, if that wasn't one of the best threads I've read in a long while.
.....after a life full of fear and anxiety I'm learning to embrace the 'What will be, will be' philosophy.
I'm a wimp though. And we aren't allowed guns. X
Now, Edmund..... ..... that's exactly the kind of attitude that allowed Mandžukić to sneak behind Blighty's defense and tuck home that game-winner in the World Cup semi-final!
Then again, we Yanks do have guns and that hasn't made a lick of difference: .....we are a few light-years **still** from raising the trophy.
The secret is to stock and prepare only the most distasteful dishes so that you are the last stop on the zombie bus route..... plus, I hear they can be way-laid by boxes of Hostess Twinkies....
I HAVE stored rice, as I cook a MAN Chinese dish.
Does it taste like chicken?
John Weiland wrote:
The secret is to stock and prepare only the most distasteful dishes so that you are the last stop on the zombie bus route..... plus, I hear they can be way-laid by boxes of Hostess Twinkies....
I have it on good authority that Twinkies will be almost impossible to find during a Zombie apocolypse, although Bill Murray might have some tucked away (unconfirmed)
I just read the first post or two, and the last, so forgive my ignorance on this topic.
I've not thought much about this, other than to realize there is no preparing for it if you're smart. You're going to have to adapt on the fly, and be ready to move constantly. If not, you're the number one target.
It's better to prey upon the people with built up stores of supplies, that don't want to leave their "homestead". It's easier, and more efficient. It's not nice, but survival isn't either. Nature is MEAN. Look around with your eyes.
That's my plan anyway, even though I think it is absolutely ludicrous that a "zombie" would invade my home, or the earth.
I know that a regular good old god fearing moral person would ransack me just as fast as a zombie would kill me if it came down to their "surviving". It's called survival, and you'd better be ready to rob all the "preppers" who did all the hard work. They're good at prepping.......maybe if you want to "prepare", you'd want to look into cardio......cardio.....cardio.......cuz you're going to be running your ass off from killers and thieves. Don't kid yourself, you ain't staying on your perfect little homestead and fighting off the mobs of hungry zombies.
You're constantly on the move, trying to survive. You know, like every other animal you've ever observed with your eyes.
Train yourself to be a predator, otherwise, you're just a source of food...........and that's where I'm headed.......Bwahahahahahaha!
It ain't going to happen though, so get your panties pulled out from your crack.
Uncivilized, natural behaviour.
Rod Serling was a prophet.
That's how it goes down every time. Every time. Don't kid yourself.
"Twilight Zone, The Shelter" if the link doesn't work.
The prepared are the target. It's obvious.
I do not accept the view as proposed, and wonder if people worked towards creating a better community
things will not go that far.
Sure a war such as occurred in 1939 -1945 would make things tough, but communities acting as communities pulled through that on both sides of the conflict.
It was not a pretty sight anywhere.
If you look at what occurred in Stanlingrad [ Russia ] with cannibalism I think you will get the drift of what I am saying.
I think the alternative to communities, is selfish and unproductive and will fail because if the apocalypse goes for longer than a few months what
will single groups of people achieve by themselves?
War does not equal Apocalypse. Your examples don't apply to an apocalypse.
During WW2 Civilization did not end; the government continued to function, laws were still enforced, etc.
A TEOTWAWKI type apocalypse means no more government, no more laws, etc. Utopian communities can NOT survive without civilization and it's laws.
Isolated communities may be able to function as feudal systems, however unless they are VERY isolated, they will likely just end up being larger targets for roving bands of attackers, warlords with large forces, etc. History tells us a lot about how humans act in these situations.
Look at the many areas in Africa that are controlled by warlords. That is what first world countries will become without a strong government, etc., only not as pleasant since even the warlords won't have any oversight.
Having gone back and read through this, I actually think the next best idea is to be a powerful leader's bitch like someone else had mentioned previously. That seems like it would have to be more of a lucky scenario, than one that could be planned for, but it's probably the most sensible answer in terms of LONG term survival. It would be harder to constantly be on the move in small tribes/alone. We're all kind of our government's bitch anyway, so it probably wouldn't be that hard adjusting to someone else. Maybe even be the guy who comes up with a coup to overthrow the bad leader.
It seems like everyone has a different perspective as to what constitutes "end times" type events. My head went to The Walking Dead tv show/Zombieland.
A crippling depression where government did stay in place is probably the most likely bad thing I'll ever see in my life (hopefully the worst, and hopefully I don't see it). So, to completely 180, prepping/homesteading is awesome in that regard. You'd still have to contend with occasional thieves, but that could be handled.
Pondering zombies again this weekend. Then remembered Humphrey Bogart in Mutiny on the Bounty & Treasure of the Sierra Madre. Too much obsession on any one thing can turn a normal person into a lunatic. Moderation is the key. Get a plan for things that WILL happen. Storms, power outages, injuries. Get a few basic supplies & skills. Then have a nice life. Hopefully working toward making the world & the earth a better place. John Lennon had it right ... give peace a chance.
I'll take luck over skill any day BUT you can't depend on luck.
...But I want to point out something.
People WANT to talk about this subject... beyond what the post merited. People feel the need to discus this... because of what life is throwing at us at this moment of uncertainty in history.
I am honored that people wanted to point me out by name to hear what I had to say on the subject. I am a bit embarrassed about that because as I have pointed out, "C5 Rule of Survival- There is no such thing as a Survival Expert. Any one claiming to be one is just trying to sell you something"
We have now heard from the Denialists and the Obsessives. There is a bit of a Goldy Locks thing going on. One is too soft. The other is too hard.
I remember a conversation I had with another prepper. He was miffed that we somehow had become prepper elders. Its not like we owe anybody anything. Why is it our responsibility. I said to him, If we don't do it, the fucking Aryan Nations and their ilk are more than happy to to catch any of the angry young men that slip through our fingers.
And this is why Permies should take this seriously. Like it or not, you are a prepper voice. You are a helpful voice in chaotic times.
I'll break my fast and get back to this once I have thought about it a bit more. Give me a few days. Things to be built. Chores to be done. Problems to solve.
(best rule in this book- Get out of your car. Get onto your bike) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zombie_Survival_Guide
Being as, one of the reasons for me coming out of the survivalist closet was to meet others (Others being necessary for any prolonged survival) I was impressed with the work of Zombie Squad.
The brilliance of what they were doing was that not only did they make survivalism cool, fun and approachable, but it helped build social bonds. Community.
Zombie Tools got their brief shot at TV fame https://www.zombietools.net/about/
Soooo...... I figured this was going to be my medium for communication.
Then the implications of the 2008 financial crash started reverberating around the world. We moved to the doomstead and started doing this full time.
Play Time Was Over.
I lost interest in the meme. I was too busy implementing real survival. We had a LARGE learning curve to get through. A lot of mistakes to make NOW, before those same mistakes would be unrecoverable. Mistakes I am still working my through to this day. Failure being the best teacher.
The prepper world is a mine field and hard to navigate. Every level of Crazy is out their an wanting to draw you in. The best way to avoid crazy is to be well educated so not to be drawn into the usual Bait and Switches.
So, here is your first homework assignment, grasshoppers. The very approachable Chris Martenson (a permie voice) put out The Crash Course. Its about three hours of your life. You now have something to do with your afternoon.
I'll take a bit of a break here and come back to it later
To be Continued....
It seems the anxiety and uncertainty many people experience today is a product of the 24/7 news cycle which needs to create stories to keep media companies relevant in a competing environment. Unfortunately, most of our so-called elected representatives foster insecurity and fear because it raises their profile, and is good for business in a consumer society. Notwithstanding the detrimental effects it has on the communities they purport to represent. I prefer to ‘Turn on, tune in, drop out’ (Timothy Leary) and thereby distance myself from such shallow, contemporary nonsense.
However, the scenarios you raise are very entertaining! To summarise: if planet Earth gets hit by a meteor large enough to cause global desolation, or the 'baddies' with nuclear/biological/chemical weapons considers Mutually Assured Destruction an acceptable choice, or Earth finally has enough of us and smites with volcanoes/storms/biblical plagues and floods, etc; how do we survive?
Well, in most situations we don’t survive AKA shit happens and we die. However, Preppers (not Permies) typical reaction is essentially to: dig a big deep hole, fill it full of resources, family members, a multitude of anti-personnel weapons, and hunker down for some sort of long term survival scenario.
Sounds a bit inadequate to me, by definition a global event is just that and it’s gonna be adios amigos for all. So better to enjoy the now and leave the future where it is.
For non-global events, do you really want a dog-eat-dog existence? Because history shows that there will ALWAYS be better equipped and more aggressive opponents that WILL defeat any scenario of defence. In this case, perhaps it’s better to relocate to a State or Country where you’d be less of a target and where the mentality of the inhabitants is to work together for mutual survival.
To put it into perspective, it should be comforting to know that the last time the USA was invaded was in the war of 1812 by those pesky Brits and Canucks, and a few squabbles with Mexico during the Border War in the early 1900's. So, it's unlikely any successful invasion would occur in the modern era: see similar failures such as Vietnam (French and US), Afghanistan (Brits, Soviets, 'Allies') Iraq (everyone),etc.
The biggest problem is the likelihood of economic disasters - recessions or a depression. That's where Permies, not Preppers, are likely to succeed. I know because my Grandparents and parents survived the Great Depression in rural Australia - didn't have any money, but had lots of food to eat, barter, or give away to the local needy. Community is everything in that scenario. (Preppers tend to squirrel away things like nuts, and hide in isolated places but generally don't do a lot in producing a realistic ongoing food supply.)
Also, I'd definitely avoid States or Countries with a cold winter - significantly reduces food production, choices, and makes survival that much harder.
Importantly though, if a zombie apocalypse truly does happen, I understand the universal treatment is to inflict severe cranial damage - Americans traditionally use boom sticks/roscoes/BFG's, while we people in the Commonwealth of Nations tend to use cricket bats, tennis rackets, ice hockey sticks, or simply bore an enemy to death with a nice cup of tea, cucumber sandwiches, and a chat.
The list includes:
- Worldwide Economic Disaster
- Nuclear Terrorist attack - suitcase weapon
- Electric Grid collapse - from terrorist attack or EMP, natural or man-made
- Biological Terrorist attack
- Chemical Weapon Terrorist attack
- Dirty Bomb Terrorist attack
- Super Volcano Eruption - Yellowstone etc
- Massive Earthquake
If I remember correctly from my statistics class, you take all of the probabilities of each individual event and add them together to get the probability of any one of them occurring. It's non-trivial. If any one of those events occurs, it's really bad.
One other thought, Permies and Preppers have many things in common. The big difference is the "Why". Why are you a permie versus Why are you a prepper? A huge number of techniques are shared.
So, the thing I pointed out, each time this subject comes up at Permies, its always one of the largest read and participated in posts. That is because it is on many peoples minds. The world keeps throwing curve balls and people keep noticing. Someone may not have all the facts... but their subconscious is screaming at them red blinking lights in the dash board.
I wont cover the Denialists other than to point out the Kubler Ross 5 stages of grief. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model
"Some people consider this and are filled with grief. As I pointed out before, collapse is the worst possible time to suffer a nervous breakdown, so please get your blubbering over with ahead of time.” Dmitry Orlov
The first mistake immature preppers make is the Bug Out, I'll survive in the wilderness eating roots and berries, hunin and a fishin like grand pappy, being a fake indian, nomadic hunter gatherer myth.
That is why, when I started my own blog, one of my first jobs was to get re-posted the old article "The Fallacy of Bugging Out"
So, that is my next homework assignment, if you wish to know my Kung Fu
(a bit repetitive but it picks up next article)
(and this is where it gets really scary and should be a frightening wake up call)
That is another good place for a break. Next, I will cover the problems of Self Sufficient Homesteading as a survival strategy.
To be continued...
How about building a vault and putting some DNA samples in a very tightly sealed container. Your DNA, your dog's DNA, your chickens DNA, etc. Somehow if intelligent life does survive, or if "visitors" were to come. There you are, and I'm guessing you could be reproduced. Obviously your personality would be different, but you'd be one heck of a long term survivor! Probably not realistic, but it could work.
How about as a world, we start investing in sending out "noah's arks" of DNA. Yup, build small space traveling time capsules of every animal/plant/kingdom of species that exists. Along with some hard drives of all the accumulated information on the internet. That seems like it would be more realistically "found" somehow.
Extinction is a constant on earth, the earth itself will go extinct. Out in space there are other inhabitable planets.......probably?
I'm looking at the earth as a flower in bloom at this point in my life. All plants go to seed, and die. You can clone them, but you can't make a single one live forever.
When I put chicken in it, yes.
Mike Barkley wrote:My apologies in advance.
I HAVE stored rice, as I cook a MAN Chinese dish.
Does it taste like chicken?
Otherwise it tastes just like soy sauce, cabbage, onion, and possibly ginger. I can put eggs in it also but the soy has a stronger flavor than the eggs.
And, Scott? Sometimes the people you shoot at will shoot back, and any friends they have might shoot also.
Personally I like the Irishman's old fashioned way of dealing with invaders: they planted potatos. Yes you could shoot the farmer, but then you would not only have to carry heavy loads of potatos away when you looted but also you might have to dig up the suckers. Which takes time that few looters (or invading armies from England) have or wish to spend.
OK, many years later the potato's got sick and died, but it really was a good way to deal with people who wanted to steal your food.
Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? When I cook it is usually the chicken, and an egg is an after thought!
As for the direct question from Terri, "And, Scott? Sometimes the people you shoot at will shoot back, and any friends they have might shoot also."
You're absolute right, and I did clarify in a later post that my thoughts were for worst case scenario where people are in a frantic state of chaos, not thinking clearly, and desperate. You know, like if the US, and Russia fired off all their nuclear missiles, or as others have said global volcanic eruptions, or maybe a huge asteroid striking the earth. Do you know how to grow potatoes with no sun? I don't (actually I've only grown potatoes once, and the best result I got was a couple of marble sized potatoes.......they were tasty though.......and I know enough to know I'm not going to try farming them under sub-optimal conditions.......I'm sure that a lot of people here could, I'm just nowhere near that level.
So, let's say that the sun is blocked out. Nothing is growing, and you're desperate and out of food in the city. People are going to start foraging for more food elsewhere. Canned food, and jars are what I'd probably go after first. I'm going to go out on a limb and say no food is growing (unless you're a mushroom guy.....let's all raid Paul Stamet's house!!! That genius is going to make it!). The first few years, yes, people are going to survive anyhow they can. Preferably robbing, but there is just now way if you come across another man's stash (in dire situations) that he's going to want to "share" with his unprepared neighbor. He might want to, he might feel compelled to, but he just doesn't have enough to give to every person who comes begging to the door.
That's where the murdering comes in. It's just a natural thing. It's not mean, it's not immoral (at that point), it's natural survival. The starving man is desperate, so he'll do desperate things to survive.
I admire the souls who think only the best of their fellow man and would care for him like he were their own blood, and I hope you are right and I'm wrong. We won't know until we try it!!!
I do feel prepared in a certain way that I am able to disconnect from a situation and just think logically. Emotion sits at the back of the bus for me. It's an advantage in a lot of areas in life........and in relationships.....it's why I've slept in an empty bed for five years...... I need nothing from anyone now, I'm learning to grow my own food, I'm trying to understand nature more so I can cohabitate with it rather than work against it. I mountain bike some crazy stuff out here in Utah giving me great stamina, and endurance on a bike. I wake up at 3:30am seven days a week, and walk my dogs five miles. I just jumped rope for an hour three days ago, and I can keep a cheap flat bottom kayak going 4.5mph on still water for two hours non stop. I am proficient in the use of guns, knives, and working with metal. I build things from scratch with no plans....just plug along and things turn out pretty dang good.
I have not had so much as an aspirin in the last five years, ie. no medications or outside needs other than food/water that I can think of.
I also wear contacts and glasses, haven't been able to see the alarm clock since I was ten years old without them. So if I lose sight, I'm probably doomed.
Again though, assuming some form of government is there to prevent the homicidals/gangs from getting too far out of control. Learning prepping, homesteading, survival skills is the BEST bet, and most realistic.
Just clarifying, and I have to say this is my favourite thread on here ever. It's actually fun to think about.......
Try 100 things. 2 will work out, but you will never know in advance which 2. This tiny ad might be one:
Two part roundwood timber framing workshop sep 24-29 and oct 1-5https://permies.com/t/91267/permaculture-projects/part-roundwood-timber-framing-workshop