Self-sufficient in a Zombie Apocalypse

Roberto pokachinni wrote:

I stopped being interested in prepping and survivalism.  My life is much more rewarding now just being interested in permaculture.

Interestingly, the step from survivalism to permaculture is not a huge leap, but it is a significantly different emotional situation/investment.  What I mean is that Permaculture has as it's goal the development of a permanent culture, but it is doing this to build a better world by design for the long term.  We do this, in my view, because it's high time we took into account our ecological footprint and our inherent ability to live on this planet without harming it.  This is an intellectual and perhaps for some a spiritual decision, but it is not based on fear.  Fear is grasping.  Permaculture is about giving back.  Therein lies the dichotomy, the split, in my thinking on it.

Survivalism might have much the same basic designs, but the reason for doing so is, in my opinion, basically selfish, but it might not feel that way to the person doing it.  I say that it is selfish, not as a bad thing, but because it is based on personal self preservation, and that is based on a emotional response to the fear of theft, destruction, loss, violence et cetera, rather than on the larger needs of caring for the Earth or the greater long term humanitarian needs to build a better world.  The survivalism mentality is never ending, and as such there is no relaxation, it is like a rat on a wheel in a cage, spinning away, and never getting anywhere really productive for even the person doing it.  That's just how I see it, from my own experience.  When we make decisions out of fear we are not making our best decisions.  That is flight or fight.  It is high stress, and shock, and lashing out sort of response to the situation.  In contrast, we need that relaxed feeling to make better decisions, and figure out why it is that we really want what we are thinking we want, and coming up with a plan to make it happen that makes better sense for our emotional self.  

Permaculture might still be selfish in a way; since a person is often doing this so that they can have their needs met, primarily.  The difference, I think, for Tyler, but certainly for myself, is that with this slight change in emotional investment, there are rewards that are present that are less tangible than this tenacious but inexhaustible chasing down of every last bit of fear with bits of preparedness in myriad directions.

Survivalism seems to have the idea that it can alleviate the presence of risk to these numerous threats.  But that, in my view, is a myth.  These problems are not surmountable on the personal level by each person having everything.  It's a nice goal, in a way, to be completely self sufficient, but it is not likely or easy to accomplish.  Not that permaculture is easy, per se, but it is not fraught with the pressing down demand that all of these things be done NOW in order to push the fear of these unknown and myriad potential problems away.  Life is not without risk, and never can be.  We can chose to make our lifeways flow in conjunction with natural laws, and help and hope others catch on to the positive changes, and that's it.  

My advice:  Do what you do not out of fear but out of an expanding view of giving.  Do what you can to build resilient systems, in all aspects of your life, including building community so that you are networking and have more collective resources and the ability to meet your and communal needs.  

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm not trying to find solutions to every problem that might arise, but at least be ready and self reliant during hard times

Nick Kitchener wrote:Personally, I think you are asking the wrong question because it drives you to a set of solutions that are all inherently flawed in that under a ZA scenario might is right.

Maybe a better question would be "In the event of a zombie apocalypse, what can I do to make me and my family indispensable?"

History shows that in times of feudal social structures (a warlord controls a territory) the general population form a mutually beneficial relationship with the "strong man". The mad max scenario even conforms to this although it's not highlighted in the movies so much.

The warlord and their enforcers need supplies, shelter, essential services, and a certain amount of luxury to maintain control over a territory. They get these things from the citizenry who live within the territory they control. In return, the citizenry gets protection, peace, and insurance against disaster (for example the warlord will often provide storehouses for excess non-perishable food and materials).

The warlord makes sure they take care of their people, because if they don't, the people will leave and seek refuge under the protection of a competitor or they will not support the warlord when a competitor attacks as they are seen as a liberating force. Sure a warlord can bully the citizenry like in the movies but in reality this tactic doesn't scale.

So in a ZA scenario you will be a warlord (unlikely), a soldier, or a "surf". Since you're in this forum, the chances are you would rather be a surf. So the trick to being a successful surf is to provide / produce things that the warlord values highly. In this way you will place yourself in a position to receive special care and attention since you will be considered a valuable asset within the territory, and these warlords control territory because of the assets that reside in them.

I wouldn't think so. I'm thinking if bad comes to worse, it might be necessary to build a stone castle sort of like medieval castles with arrows, spears, and whatever is left of guns and ammo to defend your fort.

Roberto pokachinni wrote:Hi Tatiana

And if you had the possibility to buy a new piece of land and build everything on it from scratch, how would you design it?
I realize this is a lot of info in one post/thread, but if you can point in the right direction of where to obtain some of this info, that would be great, too!

 pretty much all (or the vast majority) of the information that you are seeking can be searched and found on Permies.  The goal of this site, the way I see it, is to disseminate this information over the largest % of the population, in the shortest time period.  This will result in a much more resilient global society in general, which is what is needed in order to survive natural or political disasters.  

As far as designing and developing a piece of land that can feed and house you indefinitely, I would recommend looking at This webpage, and consider ordering their first book, Miraculous Abundance.  This is not a 'how to' book, but more of a memoir of how they came across their various ideas, but the inspiration towards very efficient permacultural food production is without parallel, and they give a list of the resources that connected them to this path of sustainability.  It is a good start to read such a book, not only because it is full of great ideas-but because it is super positive-and then follow up researching the things that they are referring to.  Their next book, due out in French later in 2018 with an English translation to follow, is going to be all about detailing the specific techniques and tools that they use.  I will order the English version as soon as it is available.   In the meantime, Elliot Coleman's 4 season Harvest (available through inter-library loan) is a good place to start on figuring out how to grow in this direction.  Elliot bought land from Helen and Scott Nearing, whose own book Living The Good Life is also available through the library, and is well worth the read to figure out what you really should be focusing on.  

Another thing that I would suggest is to take baby steps.  There is a mind frame that comes with being truly prepared to deal with anything, and that has to be developed like a muscle that is weak.  Our society is full of weaklings in this regard, myself still included.  But I am developing that sort of mind, and as I do I notice just how far I need to go.  One thing that helps to begin to develop this mentality is not to consider so much of what we need, but what we can do without.  We are incredibly spoiled in our culture, and have many 'needs' that are not needs at all.  Most of the global population does not need the majority of the stuff we have, and in fact our lifestyle and abundant consumption was foreign to our own quite recent ancestors.

As an example, I met my own needs in a small cabin without a vehicle, propane, electrictiy, running water, et cetera, for a couple years on what was considerably below the poverty line as far as income went.  I lived like a king, since I had a roots and greens low maintence garden, a seafood harvesting permit, and the skills to get wood and fix a bicycle.  I also was developing skills that would allow me to camp permanently as a nomad in the forest, if it came down to having to leave my cabin for some unknown political or natural reason.

By lowering our expectations of what we need, we gain massively in the time that we have to consider everything else.  I sat a lot in my hammock reading, and did a lot of walking on the beach and in the forest.  My life improved considerably by 'doing without' much of the things that people in our culture tend to think they need.  My job, as a small project carpenter and landscaper could be done with a bike and trailer, and was going to be needed even if the unstable thing known as 'the economy' collapsed.              

Thanks I'll check these out!
I think most people who are into permaculture have a certain frame of mind, they see the bigger picture, they always plan ahead, they live smartly. So they are already prepared to solve problems of livelihood. They already have a strong mind.

Dan Grubbs wrote:I agree with Nick in that I believe the better question isn’t about making one’s property self-sufficient. The better question is about making the people of a homestead self-sufficient. If we’re talking about surviving independently and not being assimilated into some type of collective, which I believe is more aligned with the independent mentality, then I offer an alternative approach to the survivalist scenario.

This alternative is needed when either a civilian force or a government force is, at some point, going to come for your land and operation. The timing of this depends on the duration of the SHtF scenario and your proximity to population centers. No, contrary to what tens of thousands of survivalists believe, you will not be able to out gun or defend your property should a motivated force leadership decides they want your operation. Even if several well-armed families band together and train properly, regional authorities or even a civilian force will only attempt to take your property with superior firepower. Yes, you may encounter a scouting group, but once the larger force or authority learns of your resources, they will come with force enough to take what they want. Dying does not constitute successful defense of your property.

You could possibly make yourself and your family indispensable in some way. But, growing food and managing animals is not an indispensable set of skills. I know that may bristle some feathers here at Permies. But, those skills will already be in the attacking force or within the collective supporting them. Yes, these are good skillsets to have, but you are not indispensable as one farmer. You need to find something else. Even then, however, you are at the mercy of the warlord or local government leader. That seems to me to be contrary to the independent objective we’re discussing.

My thinking is that to truly survive and not be subject to some power or force is to be mobile. One writer refers to it as going gypsy. I’m not referring to bugging out. Bugging out is usually to get you to a planned destination, which then you are again subject to the external force, no matter how well trained your family is. Your food supply has to be mobile. Since you can only carry very little food and water, your ability to forage is key. These are some of the best skills you can acquire on your homestead now, more important than than say, auto mechanic. You don’t have the ability to preserve food on the go, so you need skills at foraging and scrounging. In addition to foraging, in my opinion, goats are one of the best mobile options for fresh food supply (dairy, meat). I think goats are better choices than small cattle or sheep, which are both more difficult to move clandestinely and more picky about their feed. Goats are good foragers and can be better managed in a mobile situation as you have to move from place to place to avoid external forces. Goats eating leaves from trees are theoretically going to provide more mineral nutrients than purely grass-fed grazers – arguably.

Once the external force has either exhausted the resources of your property or lost interest they may leave it. You may have an opportunity to return. However, your risk of discovery is pretty high once you plant yourself back there. Going gypsy means that your value system is not based in your land but in the people of your family or mobile group. Where you are on any given day serves as either a resource or as cover; it is not your home. Your home is defined by the people you’re with, not a physical location. Choosing when to move is based on external threats and resource availability and your family or group’s ambulatory nature. Going gypsy is on foot. Vehicles are loud, require fuel and maintenance, and most require some kind of roadway and are easily spotted. Your homestead is whatever you can carry or lead.

Not everyone will be cut out for gypsy survival. Some will submit themselves to some authority or new collective. Some will resist an external force and may or may not survive. Some will be in a remote enough area where they may not ever encounter an external force. For the rest of us, I believe only by evasion will independent individualists survive. In my opinion, mobility is the way to survive a widespread SHtF scenario.

I agree with this! 100%!

Sonja Draven wrote:I agree with Tyler and Roberto.  

I enjoy reading memoirs and I have read several about people (fundamentalist Mormons in this case - although the specific religion matters less than the "apocalypse" mentality) who spent their entire lives focused 100% on preparing for the end times.  Having more children than they could support.  Living in fear and poverty.  Stockpiling at the expense of pleasure / joy.  Alienating friends and family.  I would rather be somewhat unprepared IF it happens than look back on my life seeing a wasteland of joy.  (Or having someone hundreds of years from now reading my journals and shaking their head because of the waste I had made of my life - and the end times STILL hadn't come.)

That is just unwise all around.

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Terri Matthews wrote:some buckets of grain.

I bought a bunch of dry beans and rice that we never ate.  The beans got so old they wouldn't even sprout when I finally threw them into the garden.  So my suggestion is to store food you actually eat and eat it regularly, rotating it to keep the supply as fresh as possible.  Otherwise you might just waste a bunch of money like I did.

We never did like to eat dry beans.

Beans are really hard to prepare in their dry form. They cause gas. I don't even like their taste. The various green beans are another matter, though. And yeah, I agree, store supplies of what you eat and rotate it to keep it fresh.

Anne Miller wrote:A few things that I have done that I have not seen mentioned:

Learn to identify all the edible plants that are growing on your property.  You might not want to eat them now but in a disaster they might look more appetizing.

Learn how to can and to preserve meat.  There are several way to preserve meat other than canning; learn to  make jerkey, corned beef, ham and other preserving techniques.

Learn about medicinal herbs and how to use them.  Learn first aid.  Learn how to stop bleeding, sew up deep cuts, take care of burns, set broken bones, etc. Learn how to take care of dental issues for when there is no dentist.

Get or better make a good first aid and dental kit.  

Invest in some "how to " books for when the internet is not available. Or get some ebooks and print them out now.

Good advice! Thanks!

Chris Kott wrote:Prepper culture is fear-based, and it spreads by compounding people's fears. If you feed it, it will surely grow.

So if people enter into preparations for a survival scenario intent on the absolute certainty that everyone will be out to get them for their food, and they then spread that fear, they are actively encouraging a culture wherein this is acceptable behaviour; it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

For those completely sold on that as an eventuality, it makes more sense to train with and stockpile guns and ammo, map out the homes and bug-out locations of as many preppers as one can fool into divulging such sensitive information, and raid them all, eliminating the competition.

Now don't get me wrong. I am going to need firearms for protection, but probably for my livestock and crops, and from wildlife more often than ravening hordes.

I don't understand the fear porn some people disguise as prepping. It makes more sense to homestead, in my opinion. It involves much of the same preparation, but if you leave out the emotional baggage of fear and hostility to those with whom you could form community, you have more room to store food.

-CK

Yes, the purpose of this thread is to learn homesteading techniques and being completely off the grid. An apocalypse is just an excuse.

Bryant RedHawk wrote:Every time this scenario is run (just about every psychology department at every university has run the doomsday scenario at least twice) it turns out that the further you live from the city, the less likely you would be to ever see any "roving hordes" or even "marauding bands" of city dwellers.
The reasons for this happening in the computer models are; gasoline shortages force city people to hoof it, city people tend to stick to their city and so localize their destruction.

I live far enough out, in a fairly inaccessible area (off the beaten path) and even the delivery people tell me they had trouble finding us the first time.
The few people that do live "near by" have the same mind set (who are you looking for? why are you here?) and we all tend to have side arms and concealed carry permits.
So we all really don't worry about such a thing happening. We live in an area with a known tornado track, the last one to hit our area was in 2014 and killed seven of our community.
Since that time, over 500 families have left the area, so our population is falling below or near 2000.

Just about everyone has a well, even if they are hooked up to "city water".
I think it is a lot like the Hank Williams Jr. song "A country boy can survive", we have the skill sets already, we don't depend completely on grocery store for our food, and we tend to be survivors, willing to do what is necessary, when necessary.
This is not fear it is simply practicality, fear is for those city folks who think they can "go country" to survive. If that should happen they will be more likely to do themselves in because they are the types who succumb to panic.

I think eventually people will find a way through all the country paths. And it will probably be those "independent" hunter gatherers armed to their teeth.



I'll reply later to the rest of the posts and make a more coherent post later. Thank you all so much! There's so much good info already!

ANY nuclear exchange IS significant. There are no nice bombs of any sort.

Now, on to zombies!!! I was thinking all day about raising bees underground. Could not find any info online in a brief search. Going to ask some very experienced beekeepers if they know of anything like that. Seems like it would be possible but I have to wonder why. If the outside area is contaminated who wants to eat that honey? If there was even a single living flower within their flight radius of several miles. There are many types of bees that live underground naturally. But the concept of traditional honey bees kept in a bunker or something similar is interesting. I believe it wouldn't be much problem assuming they had open access to the world above & there was safe food & water for them.

Tatiana ... figure out (several methods is best) how to get water from your well but also predetermine several secure walking routes to the lakes & rivers. Didn't say it would be easy. Edwards Aquifer is highly stressed already. Don't depend on that.

Someone mentioned eating the weeds. I have found this site very useful for many years.    http://www.eattheweeds.com/

Entertaining & informative book author & professional zombie prep insight.  https://survivalblog.com/preparedness-notes-friday-july-13-2018/

Know that someone has your back. Ever since Hurricane Katrina. We've provided serious relief & security at every major natural disaster since. Many small ones too. Several man made disasters. Ferguson comes to mind. Getting better each time. We aren't playing games with zombies of any sort. Not on our watch!!! Active military, vets, police, fire, medical, and all other first responders might be particularly interested. There is great info relevant to prepping & anti zombie at the link below. Check out the CPT info for sure. Might be difficult to find that type of info online elsewhere. Linked it to open about Houston hurricane relief since it is close to Tatiana. What happened there is we took in some supplies & medics. Then the gangs started breaking into warehouses & hijacking 18 wheelers enroute to Houston. We were asked to put an end to that. We did. We were first to arrive in Puerto Rico & get 'er done. By far. Don't believe most of what you read or hear in mainstream media. It's just not true or accurate. Sure, we upset some powerful people. We call out their BS & hold them accountable. https://oathkeepers.org/?s=houston+hurricane&searchsubmit=true&searchsubmit=

To me zombies is a convenient word to include all the bad things that can happen along the road of life. Some certainly will at some point or another. I'm old now & spent all my life preparing for zombies in one way or another. I've been through some extreme bad things. Some intentionally & some not. I've learned from them all. All excellent posts so far. No doubt I'll be back for more comments.

All one really needs is water, food, & protection from the elements. Every other material thing is luxury. Survival is mostly about knowledge, skills, true friends, & having a plan. Not some fantasy plan, a realistic valid plan. Several of them. Disasters can sometimes be non-events if you're doing it right. My #1 advice is get out of the big cities now, while you can. Those won't be pretty when the extreme zombies arrive. I believe most permies can relate to that. At least I'm fairly sure most of you are not expecting participation trophies:)

Peace.

Emma Carver-Barrass wrote:Well slap me sideways and call me Edmund, if that wasn't one of the best threads I've read in a long while.
.....after a life full of fear and anxiety I'm learning to embrace the 'What will be, will be' philosophy.

I'm a wimp though. And we aren't allowed guns. X

Now, Edmund..... ..... that's exactly the kind of attitude that allowed Mandžukić to sneak behind Blighty's defense and tuck home that game-winner in the World Cup semi-final!

Then again, we Yanks do have guns and that hasn't made a lick of difference: .....we are a few light-years **still** from raising the trophy.  

The secret is to stock and prepare only the most distasteful dishes so that you are the last stop on the zombie bus route.....  plus, I hear they can be way-laid by boxes of Hostess Twinkies....

My apologies in advance.

I HAVE stored rice, as I cook a MAN Chinese dish.

Does it taste like chicken?

John Weiland wrote:

The secret is to stock and prepare only the most distasteful dishes so that you are the last stop on the zombie bus route.....  plus, I hear they can be way-laid by boxes of Hostess Twinkies....

I have it on good authority that Twinkies will be almost impossible to find during a Zombie apocolypse, although Bill Murray might have some tucked away (unconfirmed)

Lol,

I just read the first post or two, and the last, so forgive my ignorance on this topic.

I've not thought much about this, other than to realize there is no preparing for it if you're smart.  You're going to have to adapt on the fly, and be ready to move constantly.  If not, you're the number one target.

It's better to prey upon the people with built up stores of supplies, that don't want to leave their "homestead".  It's easier, and more efficient.  It's not nice, but survival isn't either.  Nature is MEAN.  Look around with your eyes.

That's my plan anyway, even though I think it is absolutely ludicrous that a "zombie" would invade my home, or the earth.
I know that a regular good old god fearing moral person would ransack me just as fast as a zombie would kill me if it came down to their "surviving".  It's called survival, and you'd better be ready to rob all the "preppers" who did all the hard work.  They're good at prepping.......maybe if you want to "prepare", you'd want to look into cardio......cardio.....cardio.......cuz you're going to be running your ass off from killers and thieves.  Don't kid yourself, you ain't staying on your perfect little homestead and fighting off the mobs of hungry zombies.
You're constantly on the move, trying to survive.  You know, like every other animal you've ever observed with your eyes.  
Train yourself to be a predator, otherwise, you're just a source of food...........and that's where I'm headed.......Bwahahahahahaha!

It ain't going to happen though, so get your panties pulled out from your crack.

Duh......

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5c8mxw

Uncivilized, natural behaviour.  
Rod Serling was a prophet.

That's how it goes down every time.  Every time.  Don't kid yourself.

"Twilight Zone, The Shelter" if the link doesn't work.

The prepared are the target.  It's obvious.

I have a contrary view of things.
I do not accept the view as proposed, and wonder if people worked towards creating a better community
things will not go that far.
Sure a war such as occurred in 1939 -1945 would make things tough, but communities acting as communities pulled through that on both sides of the conflict.
It was not a pretty sight anywhere.
If you look at what occurred in Stanlingrad [ Russia ] with cannibalism I think you will get the drift of what I am saying.
I think the alternative to communities, is selfish and unproductive and will fail because if the apocalypse goes for longer than a few months what
will single groups of people achieve by themselves?

First let me state that I am not at all concerned with an apocalyptic end to civilization.  Among other issues, I personally could not survive for more than a year or two without our current level of technology.

That said...
War does not equal Apocalypse.  Your examples don't apply to an apocalypse.

During WW2 Civilization did not end; the government continued to function, laws were still enforced, etc.

A TEOTWAWKI type apocalypse means no more government, no more laws, etc.  Utopian communities can NOT survive without civilization and it's laws.

Isolated communities may be able to function as feudal systems, however unless they are VERY isolated, they will likely just end up being larger targets for roving bands of attackers, warlords with large forces, etc.  History tells us a lot about how humans act in these situations.  

Look at the many areas in Africa that are controlled by warlords.  That is what first world countries will become without a strong government, etc., only not as pleasant since even the warlords won't have any oversight.

Yeah, what Peter said.  He knows all the good words and stuff.

Having gone back and read through this, I actually think the next best idea is to be a powerful leader's bitch like someone else had mentioned previously.   That seems like it would have to be more of a lucky scenario, than one that could be planned for, but it's probably the most sensible answer in terms of LONG term survival.  It would be harder to constantly be on the move in small tribes/alone.   We're all kind of our government's bitch anyway, so it probably wouldn't be that hard adjusting to someone else.  Maybe even be the guy who comes up with a coup to overthrow the bad leader.  

It seems like everyone has a different perspective as to what constitutes "end times" type events.  My head went to The Walking Dead tv show/Zombieland.  
A crippling depression where government did stay in place is probably the most likely bad thing I'll ever see in my life (hopefully the worst, and hopefully I don't see it).  So, to completely 180, prepping/homesteading is awesome in that regard.   You'd still have to contend with occasional thieves, but that could be handled.

If civilisations ends as described in your scenario, rather than the WW@ picture I spoke of, what encourages you to think it would be
managed  better.

Centex nursery  Excellent place to get organic/heirloom veggies suitable for centex seasons & climate. Wish I still had them nearby.

Pondering zombies again this weekend. Then remembered Humphrey Bogart in Mutiny on the Bounty & Treasure of the Sierra Madre. Too much obsession on any one thing can turn a normal person into a lunatic. Moderation is the key. Get a plan for things that WILL happen. Storms, power outages, injuries. Get a few basic supplies & skills. Then have a nice life. Hopefully working toward making the world & the earth a better place. John Lennon had it right ... give peace a chance.

I'll take luck over skill any day BUT you can't depend on luck.

I have been trying to take a bit of a fast from writing...

...But I want to point out something.

People WANT to talk about this subject... beyond what the post merited. People feel the need to discus this... because of what life is throwing at us at this moment of uncertainty in history.

I am honored that people wanted to point me out by name to hear what I had to say on the subject. I am a bit embarrassed about that because as I have pointed out, "C5 Rule of Survival- There is no such thing as a Survival Expert. Any one claiming to be one is just trying to sell you something"

We have now heard from the Denialists and the Obsessives. There is a bit of a Goldy Locks thing going on. One is too soft. The other is too hard.

I remember a conversation I had with another prepper. He was miffed that we somehow had become prepper elders. Its not like we owe anybody anything. Why is it our responsibility. I said to him, If we don't do it, the fucking Aryan Nations and their ilk are more than happy to to catch any of the angry young men that slip through our fingers.

And this is why Permies should take this seriously. Like it or not, you are a prepper voice. You are a helpful voice in chaotic  times.

I'll break my fast and get back to this once I have thought about it a bit more. Give me a few days. Things to be built. Chores to be done. Problems to solve.

When I first came out of the survivalist closet and decided to reveal myself to the world, I decided to do it under the "surviving the zombie apocalypse " meme. It was a great idea that was very approachable to people. You just cant take yourself too seriously. Max Brooks pioneered this direction with "The Zombie Survival Guide".
(best rule in this book- Get out of your car. Get onto your bike)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zombie_Survival_Guide

Being as, one of the reasons for me coming out of the survivalist closet was to meet others (Others being necessary for any prolonged survival) I was impressed with the work of Zombie Squad.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL14hbmmDvk
The brilliance of what they were doing was that not only did they make survivalism cool, fun and approachable, but it helped build social bonds. Community.

Zombie Tools got their brief shot at TV fame  https://www.zombietools.net/about/

Soooo...... I figured this was going to be my medium for communication.

Then the implications of the 2008 financial crash started reverberating around the world. We moved to the doomstead and started doing this full time.

Play Time Was Over.

I lost interest in the meme. I was too busy implementing real survival. We had a LARGE learning curve to get through. A lot of mistakes to make NOW, before those same mistakes would be unrecoverable. Mistakes I am still working my through to this day. Failure being the best teacher.

The prepper world is a mine field and hard to navigate. Every level of Crazy is out their an wanting to draw you in. The best way to avoid crazy is to be well educated so not to be drawn into the usual Bait and Switches.

So, here is your first homework assignment, grasshoppers. The very approachable Chris Martenson (a permie voice) put out The Crash Course. Its about three hours of your life. You now have something to do with your afternoon.

https://www.peakprosperity.com/crashcourse

I'll take a bit of a break here and come back to it later

To be Continued....

Didn't think a Permaculture forum would delve into the wide and weird world of Preppers.

It seems the anxiety and uncertainty many people experience today is a product of the 24/7 news cycle which needs to create stories to keep media companies relevant in a competing environment. Unfortunately, most of our so-called elected representatives foster insecurity and fear because it raises their profile, and is good for business in a consumer society. Notwithstanding the detrimental effects it has on the communities they purport to represent. I prefer to ‘Turn on, tune in, drop out’ (Timothy Leary) and thereby distance myself from such shallow, contemporary nonsense.

However, the scenarios you raise are very entertaining! To summarise: if planet Earth gets hit by a meteor large enough to cause global desolation, or the 'baddies' with nuclear/biological/chemical weapons considers Mutually Assured Destruction an acceptable choice, or Earth finally has enough of us and smites with volcanoes/storms/biblical plagues and floods, etc; how do we survive?

Well, in most situations we don’t survive AKA shit happens and we die. However, Preppers (not Permies) typical reaction is essentially to: dig a big deep hole, fill it full of resources, family members, a multitude of anti-personnel weapons, and hunker down for some sort of long term survival scenario.

Sounds a bit inadequate to me, by definition a global event is just that and it’s gonna be adios amigos for all. So better to enjoy the now and leave the future where it is.

For non-global events, do you really want a dog-eat-dog existence? Because history shows that there will ALWAYS be better equipped and more aggressive opponents that WILL defeat any scenario of defence. In this case, perhaps it’s better to relocate to a State or Country where you’d be less of a target and where the mentality of the inhabitants is to work together for mutual survival.

To put it into perspective, it should be comforting to know that the last time the USA was invaded was in the war of 1812 by those pesky Brits and Canucks, and a few squabbles with Mexico during the Border War in the early 1900's. So, it's unlikely any successful invasion would occur in the modern era: see similar failures such as Vietnam (French and US), Afghanistan (Brits, Soviets, 'Allies') Iraq (everyone),etc.

The biggest problem is the likelihood of economic disasters - recessions or a depression. That's where Permies, not Preppers, are likely to succeed. I know because my Grandparents and parents survived the Great Depression in rural Australia - didn't have any money, but had lots of food to eat, barter, or give away to the local needy. Community is everything in that scenario. (Preppers tend to squirrel away things like nuts, and hide in isolated places but generally don't do a lot in producing a realistic ongoing food supply.)

Also, I'd definitely avoid States or Countries with a cold winter - significantly reduces food production, choices, and makes survival that much harder.

Importantly though, if a zombie apocalypse truly does happen, I understand the universal treatment is to inflict severe cranial damage - Americans traditionally use boom sticks/roscoes/BFG's, while we people in the Commonwealth of Nations tend to use cricket bats, tennis rackets, ice hockey sticks, or simply bore an enemy to death with a nice cup of tea, cucumber sandwiches, and a chat.

I agree that the most probable scenario is an economic disaster.  However, the probability of other types of disasters is well above Zero.  

The list includes:
-  Worldwide Economic Disaster
-  Nuclear Terrorist attack - suitcase weapon
-  Electric Grid collapse - from terrorist attack or EMP, natural or man-made
-  Biological Terrorist attack
-  Chemical Weapon Terrorist attack
-  Dirty Bomb Terrorist attack
-  Super Volcano Eruption - Yellowstone etc
-  Massive Earthquake

If I remember correctly from my statistics class, you take all of the probabilities of each individual event and add them together to get the probability of any one of them occurring.  It's non-trivial.  If any one of those events occurs, it's really bad.  

One other thought, Permies and Preppers have many things in common.  The big difference is the "Why".  Why are you a permie versus Why are you a prepper?  A huge number of techniques are shared.

...Continued

So, the thing I pointed out, each time this subject comes up at Permies, its always one of the largest read and participated in posts. That is because it is on many peoples minds. The world keeps throwing curve balls and people keep noticing. Someone may not have all the facts... but their subconscious is screaming at them red blinking lights in the dash board.

I wont cover the Denialists other than to point out the Kubler Ross  5 stages of grief. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model

  "Some people consider this and are filled with grief. As I pointed out before, collapse is the worst possible time to suffer a nervous breakdown, so please get your blubbering over with ahead of time.”      Dmitry Orlov

The first mistake immature preppers make is the Bug Out, I'll survive in the wilderness eating roots and berries, hunin and a fishin like grand pappy, being a fake indian, nomadic hunter gatherer myth.

That is why, when I started my own blog, one of my first jobs was to get re-posted the old article "The Fallacy of Bugging Out"

So, that is my next homework assignment, if you wish to know my Kung Fu

https://darkgreenmountainsurvivalresearchcentre.wordpress.com/2017/06/23/c5-presents-the-fallacy-of-bugging-out-part-i-by-survival-acres/

https://darkgreenmountainsurvivalresearchcentre.wordpress.com/2017/07/07/c5-presents-the-fallacy-of-bugging-out-part-ii-by-survival-acres/
(a bit repetitive but it picks up next article)

https://darkgreenmountainsurvivalresearchcentre.wordpress.com/2017/08/06/c5-presents-survivalist-challenge-putting-the-bullshit-to-the-test-by-survival-acres/

https://darkgreenmountainsurvivalresearchcentre.wordpress.com/2017/08/18/c5-presents-b-o-b-the-reality-by-survival-acres/

(and this is where it gets really scary and should be a frightening wake up call)
https://darkgreenmountainsurvivalresearchcentre.wordpress.com/2017/08/25/c5-presents-surviving-the-horde-by-survival-acres/

That is another good place for a break. Next, I will cover the problems of Self Sufficient Homesteading as a survival strategy.

To be continued...

Just skip right over this comment if thinking outside the box is beyond what you'd want to do for "survival" during the inevitable burning out of the sun.  Yeah, it's a few years away, but it is inevitable.  (well, maybe we could keep it burning longer with enough technology, but I can't think that far outside the box.)

How about building a vault and putting some DNA samples in a very tightly sealed container.  Your DNA, your dog's DNA, your chickens DNA, etc.  Somehow if intelligent life does survive, or if "visitors" were to come.  There you are, and I'm guessing you could be reproduced.  Obviously your personality would be different, but you'd be one heck of a long term survivor!  Probably not realistic, but it could work.

How about as a world, we start investing in sending out "noah's arks" of DNA.  Yup, build small space traveling time capsules of every animal/plant/kingdom of species that exists.  Along with some hard drives of all the accumulated information on the internet.  That seems like it would be more realistically "found" somehow.

Extinction is a constant on earth, the earth itself will go extinct.  Out in space there are other inhabitable planets.......probably???

I'm looking at the earth as a flower in bloom at this point in my life.  All plants go to seed, and die.  You can clone them, but you can't make a single one live forever.

Mike Barkley wrote:My apologies in advance.

I HAVE stored rice, as I cook a MAN Chinese dish.

Does it taste like chicken?

When I put chicken in it, yes.

Otherwise it tastes just like soy sauce, cabbage, onion, and possibly ginger. I can put eggs in it also but the soy has a stronger flavor than the eggs.

And, Scott? Sometimes the people you shoot at will shoot back, and any friends they have might shoot also.

Personally I like the Irishman's old fashioned way of dealing with invaders: they planted potatos. Yes you could shoot the farmer, but then you would not only have to carry heavy loads of potatos away when you looted but also you might have to dig up the suckers. Which takes time that few looters (or invading armies from England) have or wish to spend.

OK, many years later the potato's got sick and died, but it really was a good way to deal with people who wanted to steal your food.

Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? When I cook it is usually the chicken, and an egg is an after thought!

First things first, it would have been better to say, "Think outside the globe."  Rather than think outside the box in my last reply.

As for the direct question from Terri,  "And, Scott? Sometimes the people you shoot at will shoot back, and any friends they have might shoot also."

You're absolute right, and I did clarify in a later post that my thoughts were for worst case scenario where people are in a frantic state of chaos, not thinking clearly, and desperate.  You know, like if the US, and Russia fired off all their nuclear missiles, or as others have said global volcanic eruptions, or maybe a huge asteroid striking the earth.  Do you know how to grow potatoes with no sun?  I don't (actually I've only grown potatoes once, and the best result I got was a couple of marble sized potatoes.......they were tasty though.......and I know enough to know I'm not going to try farming them under sub-optimal conditions.......I'm sure that a lot of people here could, I'm just nowhere near that level.

So, let's say that the sun is blocked out.  Nothing is growing, and you're desperate and out of food in the city.  People are going to start foraging for more food elsewhere.  Canned food, and jars are what I'd probably go after first.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say no food is growing (unless you're a mushroom guy.....let's all raid Paul Stamet's house!!!  That genius is going to make it!).  The first few years, yes, people are going to survive anyhow they can.  Preferably robbing, but there is just now way if you come across another man's stash (in dire situations) that he's going to want to "share" with his unprepared neighbor.  He might want to, he might feel compelled to, but he just doesn't have enough to give to every person who comes begging to the door.  
That's where the murdering comes in.  It's just a natural thing.  It's not mean, it's not immoral (at that point), it's natural survival.  The starving man is desperate, so he'll do desperate things to survive.
I admire the souls who think only the best of their fellow man and would care for him like he were their own blood, and I hope you are right and I'm wrong.  We won't know until we try it!!!  

I do feel prepared in a certain way that I am able to disconnect from a situation and just think logically.  Emotion sits at the back of the bus for me.  It's an advantage in a lot of areas in life........and in relationships.....it's why I've slept in an empty bed for five years......  I need nothing from anyone now, I'm learning to grow my own food, I'm trying to understand nature more so I can cohabitate with it rather than work against it.  I mountain bike some crazy stuff out here in Utah giving me great stamina, and endurance on a bike.  I wake up at 3:30am seven days a week, and walk my dogs five miles.  I just jumped rope for an hour three days ago, and I can keep a cheap flat bottom kayak going 4.5mph on still water for two hours non stop.  I am proficient in the use of guns, knives, and working with metal.  I build things from scratch with no plans....just plug along and things turn out pretty dang good.  
I have not had so much as an aspirin in the last five years, ie. no medications or outside needs other than food/water that I can think of.  
I also wear contacts and glasses, haven't been able to see the alarm clock since I was ten years old without them.  So if I lose sight, I'm probably doomed.

Again though, assuming some form of government is there to prevent the homicidals/gangs from getting too far out of control.  Learning prepping, homesteading, survival skills is the BEST bet, and most realistic.  

Just clarifying, and I have to say this is my favourite thread on here ever.  It's actually fun to think about.......

I have be waiting for a thread like this....and being a little adhd I did not read every post....My personal survival skils would involve some very basic requirements. You must be able to throw! You must be able to run! You must be able to climb!(lift your body out of trouble). Let's add Swim.

New versions of some old posters. Seemed relevant for this thread. Enjoy.

Remembered something today that belongs in this thread. There's a free Centex magazine called Living Naturally First. Only place I've ever seen it is a company in Austin called Bright Ideas. Several locations around town. They also have awesome seeds & organic growing supplies, etc.

Thank you for bumping this thread and for the apple!

Reading everyone's posts helped me a great deal to think more productively about this issue.

But I wanted to say a few things about bugging it out, or rather, warn against it. I'm a bit of an expert in the way our ancestors lived due to my profession. I study their diet and lifestyle, and also that none of us nowadays could be a hunter gatherer, it's just not possible.

Hunter gatherers are physically different than us who were raised in civilization with conveniences, the primary convenience is cooked food. We have grown soft and sensitive, and I'm talking figuratively and literally about our muscles, bones, organs, teeth, joints, and everything else. People who survive on wild plants have tooth and jaw modifications (or actually it's us who do) that allow them to chew the plant material, and also the digestive system that's adapted to that sort of diet. Their bodies adapt to the lifestyle from childhood. They walk barefoot, they take on the elements, and their bodies wear out by their thirties. It's not a happy life that people like to imagine, it's impossibly hard, extremely physically demanding. If you go out into a state park in the US today, for example, there simply isn't enough for you to eat as someone who was raised on KFC, pizzas, or even lettuce and green beans. All of the commercial crop cultures have been altered to suit our palate, to be softer and juicier than their wild counterparts. Even if you know about which plants you can forage in your area, they will not be as juicy and filling as a cauliflower casserole with gluten free macaroni for example. You might be able to get by on a couple plants here and there, eat some berries, but in the long run, your body will start to starve and break down, since it's not used to so much cellulose. You will be in a very unhappy place bugging it out by yourself, humbled by your own stupid choices.

Prepping can be a fun hobby (and of course it does give those so inclined to, the excuse to buy more guns and ammo than they could possibly deploy—not to mention all the radically cool “made in China” tactical gear.) When it comes right down to it though, bottom line: we’re all gonna die. No one gets out of this world without dying. You’re gonna die. So am I. So, while you can, LIVE. Next world, things will maybe be better, or maybe harder. Our mission is to become fully human like some of this world’s greatest teachers/examples who have, some of them or at the least one of them, even gone so far as to lay down their lives for their friends. Living in fear is no life at all. Heck—a lot of us would die of far more mundane things than zombies in an apocalypse—such as not having the meds to keep us alive. (DH is s BM transplant recipient.)

In the meantime one could do worse than improving the land whilst growing grass and lovely, lovely heritage chickens and Scottish Highland cows and maybe in the spring (if it comes) ducks and guineas and turkeys and lambs and perhaps (if global warming is really a thing) TOMATOES! Even apples!!! Live well and truly. Fear not. Nothing can harm you forever.

Ross Raven wrote:

People WANT to talk about this subject... because of what life is throwing at us at this moment of uncertainty in history.


I remember a conversation I had with another prepper. He was miffed that we somehow had become prepper elders. Its not like we owe anybody anything. Why is it our responsibility. I said to him, If we don't do it, the fucking Aryan Nations and their ilk are more than happy to to catch any of the angry young men that slip through our fingers.

Like it or not, you are a prepper voice. You are a helpful voice in chaotic  times.

On a day like today where all eyes are on the news, I was reminded of this, one of my better quotes.

This is why I have tried to be so diligent... in exposing myself. "Transparency and Accountability". To give people models of hope and changing the narrative of the subject mater.

I'm actually very happy this event occurred. No one died. It didn't take an Oklahoma City bombing for this recurring pattern to dive it all underground again.

(edit- 1 hour later. I spoke too soon. After pressing send, the news came on of a synagogue shooting)

And this is a chance.... for folks like "Permies" to grasp control of the narrative and present a better model for "Adapting" to a rapidly changing world.

The management here has earned my trust.

Off I go to bury carrots under several feet of hay, in my ongoing challenge of getting carrot seeds which only produce the second year. I've never had success yet, but I will keep trying new things until I succeed. Failure is not an option.

Tyler Ludens wrote:I bought such big bags of rice that it got all nasty and stale before we ate it.  So, rather than buying "bulk" sizes of food for cheap, I recommend buying the sizes you actually consume.

You are supposed to spend another couple of bucks and store that 50 lbs of rice in mylar then in a bucket or feed bag. It will last for 20+ years that way (no bugs, no moisture). Plus it ensures you save it for emergencies since you will not "accidentally" use up a mylar bag without realizing it is depleting your emergency supply.The beans are another story, I don't know if there is a way to keep them from getting rock hard after a few years but I don't store those anyway.

I think it is easier for city folks to waste a lot prepping for the apocalypse because they very often buy stuff they do NOT use and quite possibly never will use.

Since we have a week long power outage every year or two and lose heat/water/light  I use virtually all of my prep equipment at that time and figure out what else I really need to add. I don't buy freeze dried or packaged "prepper" food, but only stuff we eat regularly like bags of rice, pasta, canned meat and veggies, chili, soups, canned dog food etc... The only prep items I have not used are not expensive anyway, like an emergency water filter, but can't risk not having that if we ever need it.

I only prep for mid-term disasters (i.e. several weeks) because I live alone and wouldn't survive a long term 1+ year disaster anyway.

We tend to buy food on a monthly basis, and most of our food is either frozen or canned/dried. We probably have 3 months of non-perishable food, and 4 months if you count our freezer. This isn't really due to any planning, but mostly due to our stress-buying. When we get stressed, we like to buy...and we can't justify buying junk, but we can justify buying more food. So, most of our food storage is food we normally eat--we just buy a lot of it and make sure to re-stock before it runs out. We also usually buy in bulk either online or when there are sales. Our staples are:

Canned fish
Canned beans (I know, dried beans are a much better deal, but when we want to eat beans, it's usually on short notice and I don't have time to soak/prepare them)
Gluten-free flour
lara bars
pepperoni sticks
cococnut oil/palm shortening
Sugar
Fruit snack for the kids (always bought on sale)
Collagen (we use it in our smoothies--it's a great source of protein, and I buy it in bulk because it's cheaper)
Peanut butter
Almond butter
Cocoa butter
Dried Dates and figs and raisins and bananas and apples (the latter of which we dehydrate at home)
Organic white rice (My rice, granted, doesn't taste as good as it used to, but we really try to avoid grains, so I just use lots of salt and butter when I make it to add flavor to it)
Freeze dried peas (a favorite snack of my kids. I buy it in bulk because it's cheaper that way)
Chocolate

We also, of course, have duck eggs, and veggies/herbs from our garden and potatoes. In the freezer is frozen fruit and steak. When we have power outages, we use the generator to keep the freezer going, and that's about it. We also cover the freezer with wool blankets to insulate it further. Our fridge usually just has food that is fine at slightly-above refrigerator temps (yogurt, carrots, kefir), or meat for a day or two. We eat the perishable things first. The longest

I don't like to stockpile the 20 year foods in mylar, because they're expensive, and we don't eat grains due to my husband's Crohn's. And, I want to eat my food--I think if I had buckets of food stashed away, they'd sit there and never get eaten. So, I buy food to eat, and eat the oldest first and buy new food. we still end up with months of food stored up, and it's all food we eat (well, except for that canned keta salmon. BLECH. It was on sale for something like 25 cents a can, and wildcaught. We had no idea it would be so gross. But, if I add eggs and chives and parsley and fry them as salmon patties, they are edible. I guess in a zombie apocalypse, we'll be eating a LOT of that salmon.)

To be ready for the ZA, one would need knowledge and experience.
I have a ton of knowledge after watching a few documentaries about less centralized mega-sized societies.
Next comes experience, I would need three years of actually living that lifestyle of emotional isolation, build up physical strength, and learn how to prepare and enjoy the food that I have, how to hunt/shoot at least a rabbit. And lastly how to produce my own food and medicine. Because I just don't see being able to buy enough freeze dry food to last. Thats 1.1million calorie per year per person. So with 5 people that is 5million/year and for 4years that is 20,000,000 calories of freeze dry food. That's going to take up alot of space.

Tatiana Trunilina wrote:No, I'm serious!

How do you prepare your property to be totally self-sufficient in dire times? Of course a zombie apocalypse is just hypothetical, but natural disasters happen all the time. People run out of food and water in the stores and no help is on the horizon. Besides that, you get various thugs who want to take stuff from you.

So, my question is, what are the things you need to obtain for your property, say, one acre of undeveloped land with a house, in order to be off the grid, entirely off the grid, and live a comfortable life in days when the rest of the world loses its mind? How do you protect what you have from those that wish to take it? There might be monster earthquakes, flooding, a pandemic that wipes out most of the population, an asteroid hit, volcanic eruptions suddenly increase blocking the sun, or global warming with unpredictable weather patterns. We've seen what a single hurricane could do to Puerto Rico and to Houston. Let's assume that in all of these scenarios your specific piece of land is intact.

And what if the scenario is a nuclear war in your backyard? Tensions are growing nowadays between North Korea and the US and between India and Pakistan. Even if the war isn't in your country, any kind of significant nuclear exchange elsewhere in the world will affect the entire globe. You never know what might happen. Of course, you hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. So, how do you prepare for the worst?

Things you'll need:

Water. In case of aquifers running hundreds of feet below surface, how to get it without electricity
Grow food. There's only so much canned food you can store
Cooking. I really like rocket oven. But anything else?
Maybe electricity? In case of a nuclear war/asteroid strike/volcanic eruptions it will most likely result in a long nuclear/impact/volcanic winter in which case solar panels will be useless. But do you even need electricity?
Air conditioning in high humidity and temps over 100 during the day and around 80 during the night.
Heating in the winter. I like that rocket heater doesn't produce smoke and so it doesn't attract attention from miles away.
Hygiene
Entertainment
Animals? How many chickens can you raise with paddock shift design? In case of nuclear/impact/volcanic winter?
Root cellar that doubles as shelter in case of war/natural disaster?
Rain water collection
Radioactivity testing? Heavy metal testing? When you're on your own, you don't have access to these things probably unless you prepare beforehand.
Lamps for growing food in case of impact/nuclear/volcanic winter? Then you'll need electricity. LOTS of electricity. I'm guessing building a sizeable green house.
How to harvest wind power?
Alternative fuel for your car? Diesel? You can make a fortune selling it to others I presume.
They say it takes a football field worth of garden to feed one person for a year. Can you squeeze that into a much smaller space? A food forest where food grows vertically?
How to obtain salt?
Anything else I didn't mention?
Eat bugs? Which bugs? How to grow them? How to cook them? I mean if you're hungry I guess you lower your "ew" threshold.
In case of a nuclear war, can you keep bees underground?

And if you had the possibility to buy a new piece of land and build everything on it from scratch, how would you design it?
I realize this is a lot of info in one post/thread, but if you can point in the right direction of where to obtain some of this info, that would be great, too!

I am a newbie when it comes to the prepper community, only been in it a handful of years, as far as "zombie apocalypse " goes. But am not really that new to prepping for things like if the lights go out for short periods.  Have had camp cooking materials handy, put up sheets over hallways to keep things warm in cold months, have a wood burning stove in family room, try to kèep flashlights and lanterns working and ready. Now i am trying to keep a couple weeks in food and water at least. Things of that sort. Working on other longer term food storage and of course growing food, and working on growing microgreens and sprouts.  I am working on growing my compost area, because i think believe it or not is key to longevity of growing healthy food. Which is main key to survival. While it isn't the cleanest water, i do live relatively close to a large water source.

As for zombie apocalypse not being real, actually it is real! The economy is full of zombie corporations that just won't die, and zombie banks and a zombie government that won't die. And people these days stare at their phones all day.  I would say we are in the middle of a zombie apocalypse! Just a matter of degree really.

Nicole Alderman wrote:
I don't like to stockpile the 20 year foods in mylar, because they're expensive, and we don't eat grains due to my husband's Crohn's. And, I want to eat my food--I think if I had buckets of food stashed away, they'd sit there and never get eaten. So, I buy food to eat, and eat the oldest first and buy new food. we still end up with months of food stored up, and it's all food we eat

I stock a pantry and also put dry goods up in 1 gallon mylar bags. Not only does the mylar keep it dry and prevent bugs, but it prevents me from using up the last box of pasta or bag of bread flour and not having any in an emergency. Once packed they get stacked in a large tote like files in a filing cabinet, standing up with the top edge labeled.

They really aren't very expensive these days, a pack of fifty 1-gal bags with absorbers costs about $20 and it stores a LOT of stuff (each holds a bag of sugar or flour, 2 boxes of pasta etc...and size wise it is the same as a regular package that I would open anyway). I only use the large 5-gal mylar bags for emergency dog/chicken food such as 50 lbs of rice/corn/wheat and that gets sealed up in a paper feed bag instead of buckets (bags are the same size).

Lucrecia Anderson wrote:

Nicole Alderman wrote:
I don't like to stockpile the 20 year foods in mylar, because they're expensive, and we don't eat grains due to my husband's Crohn's. And, I want to eat my food--I think if I had buckets of food stashed away, they'd sit there and never get eaten. So, I buy food to eat, and eat the oldest first and buy new food. we still end up with months of food stored up, and it's all food we eat

I stock a pantry and also put dry goods up in 1 gallon mylar bags. Not only does the mylar keep it dry and prevent bugs, but it prevents me from using up the last box of pasta or bag of bread flour and not having any in an emergency. Once packed they get stacked in a large tote like files in a filing cabinet, standing up with the top edge labeled.

They really aren't very expensive these days, a pack of fifty 1-gal bags with absorbers costs about $20 and it stores a LOT of stuff (each holds a bag of sugar, flour, 2 boxes of pasta etc...and size wise it is the same as a regular package that I would open anyway). I only use the large 5-gal mylar bags for emergency dog/chicken food such as 50 lbs of rice/corn/wheat and that gets sealed up in a paper feed bag instead of buckets (bags are the same size).

Where do you buy your mylar bags? I am guessing Amazon.com  but correct me if I am wrong please.  Thanks

K Cee wrote:   I would say we are in the middle of a zombie apocalypse! Just a matter of degree really.

My guess is that Cormac McCarthy would agree and that it was the point of "The Road".   You don't need to be living a 'physical' ZA....it can be spiritual/cultural/societal.

"He watches, pale and unwashed. He can neither read nor write and in him broods already a taste for mindless violence. All history present in that visage, the child the father of the man." -- Cormac McCarthy, 'Blood Meridian'.

Nicole Alderman wrote:
, and it's all food we eat (well, except for that canned keta salmon. BLECH. It was on sale for something like 25 cents a can, and wildcaught. We had no idea it would be so gross. But, if I add eggs and chives and parsley and fry them as salmon patties, they are edible. I guess in a zombie apocalypse, we'll be eating a LOT of that salmon.)

That is the only kind of salmon I buy.  It is also called chum salmon. What a bargain at 25 cents a can.  I pay about $2.29 a can for 14.75 oz; maybe yours were small cans?

The only way I use it is like you did to make salmon patties.  We love salmon patties or tuna patties.

I also buy lots of canned beans because what I am looking for is something that can be opened and eaten when there is no electricity.  There is nothing better for protein and fiber.

I would add canned pineapple and pumpkin to your list as those are the only canned fruit that has vitamin C. Your dried fruit may have some vitamin C.  I don't know.

K Cee wrote:
Where do you buy your mylar bags? I am guessing Amazon.com  but correct me if I am wrong please.  Thanks

In the past I ordered from PackFreshUSA (found them on ebay and they had the best prices at that time). Looks like their prices have gone up a bit since then but I haven't bought bags in a year or so. I prefer ebay to Amazon these days.

They used to have a 10% off "thankyou" promocode, it might still work.

https://packfreshusa.com/shop/mylar-bag-sets/

I thought folks may require a demo

This is a good time of year in northern hemisphere to remove certain water filtration devices (Sawyer Squeeze) from your car or other outdoor storage. Those types of filters are destroyed by freezing.

Also mylar is great for taking advantage of sales and that offsets the cost of the bags. I just bought a dozen bags of egg noodles on sale at half price (those virtually never go on sale), if I kept it on the shelf they could get stale/buggy before I used them up but in mylar they are good for at least 2-3 years. Even with the cost of the mylar bag it is still a great savings.

Some tips if folks haven't used mylar before:
-- do not add oxygen absorbers to sugar or salt (it will harden into a giant block)
-- rotate bags of flour every couple of years -- it will go rancid
-- avoid foods that contain fat/oil (i.e. instant mashed potatoes or crackers should be fat free)
-- bag saltine type crackers or ramen in their original stacks/envelopes -- just snip a corner to let the air out
-- avoid foods with multiple ingredients  (i.e. cake mixes, bisquick, regular breakfast cereal) as the shelf life is shortened

Mike Barkley wrote:This is a good time of year in northern hemisphere to remove certain water filtration devices (Sawyer Squeeze) from your car or other outdoor storage. Those types of filters are destroyed by freezing.

Even if they are stored empty? I have kept a Sawyer Squeeze in my car bag for 2 years now (through freezing temps).

If that filter is ruined I will be super peeved, since it is sold for backpacking they should warn their customers.

Anne Miller wrote:

Nicole Alderman wrote:
, and it's all food we eat (well, except for that canned keta salmon. BLECH. It was on sale for something like 25 cents a can, and wildcaught. We had no idea it would be so gross. But, if I add eggs and chives and parsley and fry them as salmon patties, they are edible. I guess in a zombie apocalypse, we'll be eating a LOT of that salmon.)

That is the only kind of salmon I buy.  It is also called chum salmon. What a bargain at 25 cents a can.  I pay about $2.29 a can for 14.75 oz; maybe yours were small cans?

I just went and checked. They're 7.5 oz containers, and the salmon still has bones. We found them at a little liquidation store that used to be in a nearby city. It was the outlet of outlet stores, and would often have yogurt at 50cents a 8oz carton, too, and all sorts of other amazingly affordable food. We found flats of this salmon at something like 25cents a can (I asked my husband, and he agreed that they really had cost that little). Thus, we bought 3 flats that had 16 cans each. some 52 cans total, even though we'd never tasted that type of salmon before. We still haven't finished off the first flat!