Self-sufficient in a Zombie Apocalypse

Spencer Miles wrote:I feel compelled to remark upon the direction that the discussion has taken, as well as to point out a humorous, macabre irony.

Zombies - I prefer "zommies" 'cause it's more fun to say.

Community. Community, Community, COMMUNITY!!!

:)

Let it be known that community, nations, groups of people are more capable of creating crazy thoughts than a single man.

Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.  - Friedrich Nietzsche

Nicole, Don't be put off by the bones.  They are a good source of calcium.  I just smash them with a fork and you never know they are there.  Sometimes there is also skin.  I don't really like that if there is a lot but mash it up also.

I got my recipe from a lady that I worked with years ago.  Take saltine crackers and crush, then add the contents of the can, juice and all.  You can also add a beaten raw egg. You want the patties to be stiff.  I never add anything else though what you added sounds good.  Then fry on both sides until golden.  I sometimes roll mine in flour before frying if they are not as stiff as I like.

I am hearing alot of people saying that to survive the ZA, it would be best if to find or create a community of self-sufficient people if we want to survive. So that we have some equal partners to support us and trade with us, Because if I am the only person out of 30,000 people that have food/water/light at night, I will surely be over run no matter how much bullets and food that I have.

But if we are in a community where everyone have their own water/food/etc, things will be better, and then I or my neighbor want some variety to spice up life, then I might trade my delicious almond nuts for some corn that didn't do too well for me this season.


So my list is now.
Knowledge (permies.com, books, etc)
Experience (start living a self-sufficient lifestyle now, with a bit of regular centralized stuff from time to time)
Security (hide away in my private hidden underground bunker, with mines, traps, guns, etc ready to kill intruders)
Community (join/create a group of like minded people who are also self-sufficient that I can trade with for variety)
Monopoly (and lastly offer a service/good that is in high demand, healthcare is a good one...emotional/mental/spiritual=drugs/counseling and physical/medical=surgery skills or herbal medicine or bio-mechanical counselling/service)

Someone up there seems to think that there is nothing morally wrong with murder in order to get food if you are starving...thought I might address that a little bit.  

There are times when it is morally right to kill another human being:  if you are fighting in a war, you have to kill your enemies or they will kill you (this generally only pertains to soldiers but under some circumstances civilians can get caught up in the fighting).  And if you or yours are being attacked, you have a moral obligation -- not just a right, but an obligation -- to protect them with all force necessary to neutralize the threat.  

Other than those particular situations, it is *never* morally correct to commit murder.  If you failed to be prepared or to develop skills, or to overcome laziness, and you failed to make sure that you could feed yourself and your family/tribe, that is on you.  The fellow who did prepare or develop skills, and who has a good work ethic, has no moral obligation to die in order for his provisions to feed you.  He does have a moral obligation to be armed so he can fight off the parasites who have that mind set.

There, that's my two cents on that subject!

Kathleen

Kathleen Sanderson wrote:Someone up there seems to think that there is nothing morally wrong with murder in order to get food if you are starving...thought I might address that a little bit.  

There are times when it is morally right to kill another human being:  if you are fighting in a war, you have to kill your enemies or they will kill you (this generally only pertains to soldiers but under some circumstances civilians can get caught up in the fighting).  And if you or yours are being attacked, you have a moral obligation -- not just a right, but an obligation -- to protect them with all force necessary to neutralize the threat.  

Other than those particular situations, it is *never* morally correct to commit murder.  If you failed to be prepared or to develop skills, or to overcome laziness, and you failed to make sure that you could feed yourself and your family/tribe, that is on you.  The fellow who did prepare or develop skills, and who has a good work ethic, has no moral obligation to die in order for his provisions to feed you.  He does have a moral obligation to be armed so he can fight off the parasites who have that mind set.

There, that's my two cents on that subject!

Kathleen

If someone thinks murdering your neighbors so you can steal their stuff is "moral" then I don't think they have a good understanding of the word. However you can be sure LOTS of people will find reasons to "justify" robbing and even killing their neighbors.

Having said that, in a serious long term shtf situation the standards for justifiable homicide will drastically change (unless you are in Texas, then it stays about the same).  Theft and the like will probably be a capital offense simply because a) stealing someone's food/supplies can be the same as killing them and b) no one will have the time/energy/resources to incarcerate criminals.

S Bengi wrote:I am hearing alot of people saying that to survive the ZA, it would be best if to find or create a community of self-sufficient people if we want to survive. So that we have some equal partners to support us and trade with us, Because if I am the only person out of 30,000 people that have food/water/light at night, I will surely be over run no matter how much bullets and food that I have.

But if we are in a community where everyone have their own water/food/etc, things will be better, and then I or my neighbor want some variety to spice up life, then I might trade my delicious almond nuts for some corn that didn't do too well for me this season.

The community thing is a problem for many.

You either move to an area where the neighbors are already homesteading/ranching and are probably somewhat prepared or you join a group that has a pre-stocked location. There are also small communities you can join but it takes resources (i.e. money to build a cabin, bring a years worth of supplies etc...) and many are either religious groups or para-military. Or you could move to a small Mormon town in Utah, devout Mormons are required to prep and most are also well armed. Course if you don't convert you will be an "outsider" but at least they won't get desperate and try to rob you or eat you.

Many of us are embedded in our current location because of our animals or gardens so our ability to hook up with other geographically close individuals is slim to none. That may not be ideal but we just have to do the best we can. Realistically if you can hunker down and take care of yourself for a month or two you will survive the vast majority disasters.

Lucrecia Anderson wrote:

Kathleen Sanderson wrote:Someone up there seems to think that there is nothing morally wrong with murder in order to get food if you are starving...thought I might address that a little bit.  

There are times when it is morally right to kill another human being:  if you are fighting in a war, you have to kill your enemies or they will kill you (this generally only pertains to soldiers but under some circumstances civilians can get caught up in the fighting).  And if you or yours are being attacked, you have a moral obligation -- not just a right, but an obligation -- to protect them with all force necessary to neutralize the threat.  

Other than those particular situations, it is *never* morally correct to commit murder.  If you failed to be prepared or to develop skills, or to overcome laziness, and you failed to make sure that you could feed yourself and your family/tribe, that is on you.  The fellow who did prepare or develop skills, and who has a good work ethic, has no moral obligation to die in order for his provisions to feed you.  He does have a moral obligation to be armed so he can fight off the parasites who have that mind set.

There, that's my two cents on that subject!

Kathleen

If someone thinks murdering your neighbors so you can steal their stuff is "moral" then I don't think they have a good understanding of the word. However you can be sure LOTS of people will find reasons to "justify" robbing and even killing their neighbors.

Having said that, in a serious long term shtf situation the standards for justifiable homicide will drastically change (unless you are in Texas, then it stays about the same).  Theft and the like will probably be a capital offense simply because a) stealing someone's food/supplies can be the same as killing them and b) no one will have the time/energy/resources to incarcerate criminals.

I agree with what you said, especially that last bit that I bolded.  It will be like in the Old West when they hung horse thieves, because stealing a man's horse and leaving him on foot was for all practical purposes murder.

Kathleen

I always try mine out immediately. Lost a few due to freezing. Nothing visible, I just don't trust them after they have been frozen.

Squeeze

From the Sawyer website FAQ ...

How do I care for my filter during freezing weather?
Before initial wetting

Filter is safe from freezing temperatures if it has never been wetted.
After initial wetting

While there is no definitive way to tell if a filter has been damaged due to freezing, Sawyer recommends replacing your filter if you suspect that it has been frozen.
During trips if you are in freezing temperatures, we recommend that you store your filter in your pocket or close to your person so that your body heat can prevent freezing. THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR A FROZEN FILTER.

Mike Barkley wrote:I always try mine out immediately. Lost a few due to freezing. Nothing visible, I just don't trust them after they have been frozen.

Ahhh....good. Mine has never been used (one of the few times being lazy and NOT testing equipment has paid off!)

If I knew how to give out an apple I would. Thanks.

I gave Mike an apple (one has to be a pollinator, gardener, or steward to give out apples). I'm also happy to know that my not-yet-used water filters won't break when frozen!

Michael Moreken wrote:

Spencer Miles wrote:I feel compelled to remark upon the direction that the discussion has taken, as well as to point out a humorous, macabre irony.

Zombies - I prefer "zommies" 'cause it's more fun to say.

Community. Community, Community, COMMUNITY!!!

:)

Let it be known that community, nations, groups of people are more capable of creating crazy thoughts than a single man.

Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.  - Friedrich Nietzsche

I best practice might try to lie low, stay out of spotlights.

Thank you Mike Barkley!!
With the way the weather has been running, I'm VERY glad to know the water filter in my truck won't break. I too, am lazy and have not tested that one. I use the Berkey in the house, and keep water bottles full of that water in the truck, so that's my primary water, and I have never had to use my Sawyers.

As far as the zombie apocalypse in general, I'm going for the "hunker down" theory. due to health reasons I'm used to being alone for long amounts of time, and doubt I'd freak out at aloneness. It seems to me ma lot of people have a major problem psychologically with being alone, and that may get them in trouble..

For me, I look at how toxic and polluted and nonsustaining to life our planet is becoming, and  just how many fossil fuels and environmental destruction (and human suffering) is involved in the mining of metals for things like solar panels and cellphones. This makes me think that preparing for the "Zombie Apocalypse" looks like:

Growing a diverse assortment of things that can survive extreme weather and climate changes,

Using and buying a whole lot less. I don't need it, and I need to get used to not having it

Getting better at growing food and raising animals so more things can be harvested from my own land without needing to rely on the fossil fuels, environmental degredation, and unjust working conditions that come with so many products and food purchased in the store

having enough food to get through 1 or 2 winters in case enough food can't be grown/stored. I don't see much purpose in having more food stashed than that. If I can't get enough food grown by then, then I'm probably not going to be able to survive

getting good tools (wheel barrows, shovels, machetes, pruning shears, pitch forks, rakes, reel lawn mowers and scythes, etc) and learning how to sharpen and maintain and fix them.

Also, become friends and help out your neighbors. They're probably great people and worth getting to know, and the more self-sustaining everyone is, the more we can help each other, not just with supplies, but with emotional support and fresh ideas for how to do things. Neighbors are invaluable and worth far more than a years worth of dehydrated food or ammo.

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Terri Matthews wrote:some buckets of grain.

I bought a bunch of dry beans and rice that we never ate.  The beans got so old they wouldn't even sprout when I finally threw them into the garden.  So my suggestion is to store food you actually eat and eat it regularly, rotating it to keep the supply as fresh as possible.  Otherwise you might just waste a bunch of money like I did.

We never did like to eat dry beans.

Store what you eat; eat what you store.

We are prepared and always have a good stock of food on hand. If you live in a temperate climate and endeavor to raise much of your food, you are probably going to have about a 1 year supply of food to get from one harvest to the next. We store what we eat, and eat what we store.

When I put up apple butter and apple sauce and dry apples, I want enough to last until next apple harvest.

That said, I am quite passionate about sourdough. And we do not attempt to raise wheat here. Our climate is not ideal for growing a good bread flour anyway, as it is too humid and too rainy here for good bread flour wheat. So, I order fairly large orders of organic bread flour from my favorite supplier, usually twice per year.

And for other items we don’t produce, I buy those and always have a good stock of them. I save money by waiting for sales and buying them in quantity. But again, I am storing what we eat, not foods that we won’t enjoy. After all, if I don’t like them NOW, why would I like them during some future crisis? During a crisis, I am not going to be happy suddenly changing my diet to things I hate.

I think our main crisis is already at hand: climate change. To prep for that I am trying to have great redundancy in my crops - I have 12 different species of fruits, for example. That way, if one type of tree or shrub or plant can no longer thrive here, hopefully others will continue growing.

There are a few simple rules

Don't be in a city or large town.
Know your neighbors.
Be well armed and hopefully have military friends or training.
Ensure only rational thinkers have any political power in your group, you don't want people trying to let in zombie refugees.
Learn how to cook zombies so they taste good.


Everything else will fall into place.

I've been a bit of a prepper, read a few survivalist books and been on survivalist forums for well over 15 years and the best scenario is a few or several families that will work together. One man with his wife and kids, the odds aren't good because there will be hordes of desperate people and they will take what you have. There also will be, um, uninhibited people for lack of better phrasing. When there's no rules or at least no one to enforce them, people will act on their worst impulses. Have you seen the movie The Road?

Water. In case of aquifers running hundreds of feet below surface, how to get it without electricity (Springs and rainwater - see below)
Grow food. There's only so much canned food you can store (don't forget winter - need to preserve what you grow)
Cooking. I really like rocket oven. But anything else? (Wood stove, dutch oven, clay oven, solar oven, thermos cooking)
Maybe electricity? In case of a nuclear war/asteroid strike/volcanic eruptions it will most likely result in a long nuclear/impact/volcanic winter in which case solar panels will be useless. But do you even need electricity? (Sure is nice and solar will survive some situations - even a small 12vdc set up for LED lighting is nice btdt)
Air conditioning in high humidity and temps over 100 during the day and around 80 during the night. (well if you don't have electricity... - Actually we survived two heat waves with humid, over 100 degrees - miserable but we lived)
Heating in the winter. I like that rocket heater doesn't produce smoke and so it doesn't attract attention from miles away. (overrated imho - the equivalent of having a warm rock in the room - get a small efficient woodstove with a flat top you can cook on - have extra stove pipe in stock)
Hygiene (overrated in a strictly survival situation - if you have the water, go for it but if you're toting water by hand then sponge bath as needed, where needed)
Entertainment (shooting zombies of course - cards, boards games but mostly you'll be working)
Animals? How many chickens can you raise with paddock shift design? In case of nuclear/impact/volcanic winter? (rabbits are quiet and don't take up much room - you need added fat though)
Root cellar that doubles as shelter in case of war/natural disaster? (kinda different as root cellars are a bit moist to live in - could build them together with a wall between - dirt floor for root cellar, concrete for shelter - 3 foot of soil over you and hepa filters for fallout)
Rain water collection (well not if nuclear fallout but in all other cases)
Radioactivity testing? Heavy metal testing? When you're on your own, you don't have access to these things probably unless you prepare beforehand. (they can be had - oh, look into iodide pills)
Lamps for growing food in case of impact/nuclear/volcanic winter? Then you'll need electricity. LOTS of electricity. I'm guessing building a sizeable green house. (store 2 years of food - look at wheat kernels - rice - beans)
How to harvest wind power? (wind is not very good alt energy in most places but pumping water to cistern like Amish is good)
Alternative fuel for your car? Diesel? You can make a fortune selling it to others I presume. (car in zombie apocalypse? maybe a little diesel tractor or draft animals)
They say it takes a football field worth of garden to feed one person for a year. Can you squeeze that into a much smaller space? A food forest where food grows vertically?
How to obtain salt? (it's cheap and lasts forever - 5 gal buckets and use food grade desiccant -sugar too)
Anything else I didn't mention? (foraging - learn the wild edibles in your area)(clothing, shoes, hand tools, weapons, animal feed, ham radio, toilet paper, soap, medicine - pretty much all the stuff you use now but a year's worth, plus some other things)
Eat bugs? Which bugs? How to grow them? How to cook them? I mean if you're hungry I guess you lower your "ew" threshold. (I think most are edible but I don't know if I could - maybe mash them up in something else)
In case of a nuclear war, can you keep bees underground?

People have been prepping since the cold war, yet here we are and people have been worried about various presidents for a couple of centuries, yet here we are.

It does give you peace of mind being prepped even just food for just a few months. Extreme, yet normal weather events can make you stuck for a while. I've been through a blizzard in MA and hurricane in FL that kept us at home for a couple of weeks and they have ice storms here in MO that can do the same. We moved half way across the country, on a low budget, knowing we'd be off grid and knowing we'd be looking for property a while and not fully knowing the income situation. We brought 4-500 lbs of food with us with a lot of the weight being salt, sugar, beans and rice. I still have some of the salt and it's pretty solid but still salt. I had a Sam's membership so we got 50 lb bags for 10-15 bucks. Salt will preserve/cure stuff, salt+sugar will do the same and taste a lot better. Flour is only good for a year but wheat kernels last for eons. You just need a way to grind them. Pasta lasts years. Dry beans will be hard to get them to soften up once they're a year or two old. If they're still viable though you can sprout them and eat sprouts. That food we brought saved our asses as did the 12vdc fridge powered by 300 watts of solar since we had young uns that needed their milk.

Look into ceramic water filters. Big berkey type gravity feed filters and two 5 gallon buckets and a spigot. Doulton and Katadyn are the two best names and you can find videos on how to set things up. Here's some filter cartridges - https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=doulton+Super+Sterasyl

You can see the cartridges and spigot etc here - https://www.katadyn.com/us/us/254-2110080-katadyn-drip-gravidyn
Here's Doulton https://doulton.com/product/atc-super-sterasyl/

We drank water from a creek for 6 months. It was spring fed but still ground water as the spring was a 1/4 mile away. Those ceramic filters will remove giardia, cryptosporidium, protozoa and I think some will do listeria but that one's rare. They also make them that will remove other nasties so do your research.

I have not read through all of the answers(only those with apples), because i feel the quesion is ill-stated.

It should be more like:
"Which roles should be filled by the members of our group in order to survive the zombie apocalypse."

I think we all know that you can buy/prepare whatever and how munch you want,
if you are alone you will still be overrun by zombies or non-friendly survivors.
(Those solar panels on your roof probably attract the later ones)
In the best case you grow too old to defend/feed yourself.

So the only option is a community of people. And if you want to be able to maintain
a certain level of technology/knowlede/comfort you need those people to be specialised
in certain roles.

Such a community does not have to live together during pre-apocalypse time,
but it surely helps to have some common project beforehand.
A cooperative farm comes to my mind as a good starting point:

I'm growing lots of Alliums....zombies hate them.  Or is that vampires....dang it.