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ethics and philosophy

What are Paul's dirty/offensive words?

Kim Goodwin

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I just listened to some really good podcasts with Paul interviewing Diana Leaf Christian, an intentional communities mediator. I think that's what she calls herself. Something like that!

In one of the podcasts, Paul talks about how some people have been offended by his use of the entire English language in class settings (and maybe other settings?). Then he said he has a list of words that he finds very offensive, but he left it at that!

Now, from reading enough of his posts I believe one word is "should", a word I also can't stand. Does anyone know what his full list is?

For fun, I'd love to hear your "bad" words, too. At the CalEarth Institute in Hesperia, CA, where superadobe earth bag building is taught... some of the instructors find the word "dirt" offensive. It's hilarious. If you say dirt, they ask you to do pushups. All in good fun. I personally like "dirt", so not an issue for me. But I get the point - "dirtbag building" doesn't sound quite right.

I once offended a woman strongly by using the word "pot" for marijuana. She felt marijuana or cannabis were the only appropriate terms, particularly since we were in a discussion only about medical uses. A rose is a rose, unless it's pot?

A friend I had growing up told me that they would get in the MOST trouble if she or her brother said the "B" word - bored. Hah! That was also a bad word in my house, and still is on my most-irritating list. So I guess my list would be:

should
bored
smart, as used for marketing purposes. Like smartphone, smart energy, smart-product-you-want-to-promote. Also the use of clean in that way. But these words are fine in regular use.
panties

I just can't stand the word panties. I say "underwear". Which when my husband discovered this, he decided to make me get over it by calling his own underwear "panties". He is a firm believer in exposure therapy; don't ever tell him you are afraid of something. I've had to live through 8 years of "panties" now. It seems it's better not to reveal your most irritating words to some people, so be forewarned.

Be joyful, though you have considered all the facts. ~Wendell Berry

Todd Parr

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Moist. Ugh.

"People may doubt what you say, but they will believe what you do."

Judith Browning

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I think another of Paul's is 'but'.

Mine are 'hobby', 'crafter', 'fridge'....that might be all, or at least all of the ones I refuse to say.

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

James Freyr

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One of mine is more of a phrase, not a single word. It's "you need to...". It really grinds my gears when someone tells me what I need to be doing. I do my best to calmly and politely tell them that I don't tell them how to live their life so they needn't be telling me how to live mine. fuckers....

I'm with Kim and don't like "smart" being used to market crap, that and "eco", "green" and "all natural".

"Study books and observe nature; if they do not agree, throw away the books." ~ William A. Albrecht

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Oh my, I would be in so much trouble using the word "Dirt". I was a Supervisor, and now my wife is a Supervisor on the local Soil and Water Conservation District. Fooey with that long title, so I affectionately call it "The Dirt Club".

I guess for me it would be a person trying to find their "Inner Child" so they could have "Closure."

Really? It is called life so get over those two words and move on!

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Monsanto ?

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Anne Miller

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Mine is the word "think". I probably used to use it a lot until someone said ... "Don't you know?"

It "should" be cold today "but" ...

I really try hard not to use these three words.

When talking I use the word refrigerator but when posting to a forum I use fridge as it is easier to spell.

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Kim Goodwin

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Anne Miller wrote:Mine is the word "think". I probably used to use it a lot until someone said ... "Don't you know?"

Oh, that's so interesting. I've been told in the past that I'm way too "certain", by more than one person. I spent a lot of time in a Facebook group for a specific health issues, and I learned to say I think, I suspect, I believe, etc for situations where I was being asked to extrapolate. The guideline in the group was to speak from your own experience as much as possible, but once you get to the point that you have a lot more experience than many of the people, a million questions come up that go beyond your experience where others are basically asking "What do you think will happen if?" Or "Is it safe to...?" So I find that "think" can have it's uses, but I also see your point.

I just realized another candidate for Paul's list of bad words - obligation. Since he says "obligation is poison" a lot. I wonder if the word "offensive" might also be on the list. And maybe "can't". So let's see, here's the guesses so far:

obligation
offensive
can't

And these are known:
should
but (Thank you Judith Browning)

It will be pretty funny if he ever sees this thread and clarifies it.

Be joyful, though you have considered all the facts. ~Wendell Berry

Judith Browning

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but but but but

Using 'I think' has always been encouraged here (along with 'in my opinion', etc)
https://permies.com/t/2296/nice#21296

I see how 'I think' can be used many ways...mostly here at permies it's a good way to express an opinion instead of 'the truth'.
I do see where it might sound uncertain also...depending on how the reader perceives the word 'think'.
This is what I think...no uncertainty about it in my mind...I do think it.

Here's a link to the 'should' word...
Did you just "should" on me?

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Todd Parr

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Kim Goodwin wrote:
Oh, that's so interesting. I've been told in the past that I'm way too "certain", by more than one person.

Me too

Someone used to say to me "You always think you're right". I told him, yes, I do always think I'm right. Everyone always thinks they are right. Does anyone actually have an opinion about something while thinking "I know I'm wrong about this, but I'm going to think it anyway"?

"People may doubt what you say, but they will believe what you do."

Kim Goodwin

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Hah, Todd Parr! Hilarious.

As to your "moist", have you ever watched the very funny Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog movie? There is a supervillan ("super" is a stretch) called "Moist" because that's his superpower. Except that of course it's the saddest superpower ever.

Here is his song, it's only in the bonus features, I believe:

Be joyful, though you have considered all the facts. ~Wendell Berry

Mark Brunnr

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For me, using "uuh, err, you know, umm" as filler when a speaker is sorting their thoughts into the next sentence, and is concerned that any pause in their verbal output is inviting someone else to jump in and take over as speaker. Between a public speaking class 20 years ago, a sales job where the supervisor would jump on filler phrases, and current voice over work I'm now too attuned to those little, uh, er, filler bits we all use now and then.

Kim Goodwin wrote:panties

I just can't stand the word panties.

It's about 50/50 when I hear panties, that my brain brings up the image from the movie Deliverance where Ned Beatty has to... do things. /shudder

Todd Parr wrote:Moist. Ugh.

There is a "that makes me moist" meme, not explicit, just creeeeepy....

Travis Johnson wrote:
I guess for me it would be a person trying to find their "Inner Child" so they could have "Closure."

Really? It is called life so get over those two words and move on!

Me and my inner child share private jokes around "adults" that would otherwise call me a goofball. My inner child is a bit like Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes! People are encouraged to take everything too seriously, perhaps after shutting it out for decades, some folks need therapy to find it again? Or maybe I'm confusing 2 different things?

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Judith Browning

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I've been thinking about this thread and 'words' that bother me. There are more than I thought!

I realize now, that really, the words that bother me are the ones that are demeaning and insulting, it doesn't matter so much what the word is, it's how it's used and the intent behind it's use.

So then that led me to wonder why so many words that are used in insulting and demeaning ways are names for body parts or bodily functions? Maybe more women's body parts than men's ~~but~~ I haven't tried to make a side by side list.

Bodily functions pretty much fill in the gaps where body parts leave off...and then there is the word 'douche' which I guess falls into bodily functions...~~but~~ I don't think we call anyone an 'enema bag' so I guess, again, it's a feminine thing turned insult? (and of course 'douche' means 'shower' in French so would fall flat internationally).

Even the word 'liberal' when used with 'bleeding heart' (another body part!) is meant to be an insult....

EDIT: came back to strike out the word 'but' to see if it reads the same.

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

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I like "should" as the number one offender in my book, but only because it is a six-letter embodiment of one person seeking to impose their will upon another. Paul has opined many times on this, and I like his idea.

Other than that, I think people are entirely too eager to be offended these days. It's like suckers growing from the entitlement tree that grew with heavy dousings of litigative culture.

Using elements of a culture you're not born to? That's offensive.

Using inflammatory, although not outright illegal, language? That's offensive.

Challenging the status quo, or tenets of any particular religion, or political philosophy? Slaughtering sacred cows unsupportable by logic? That's offensive.

Are any of these things being done even remotely to me, by one at whom I could direct my impotent wrath? Not only is that offensive in my eyes, but it is so offensive that I will sue, and take all I can from you for the offense (I would never, but I see people that ride that line every day, looking for the payout).

I dearly love the controls embraced by users of this site that keep the trolls out. But even we aren't immune to overdoing it in this sphere, I think.

-CK

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein

Todd Parr

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"Should" seems to be a trigger for lots of people, but it's very much context driven for me. I use should often, but in the context of "You should be able to extend your growing season a bit if you add a second layer of plastic." I don't recall ever using it in the "You should stop tilling" format.

Kim, that song is pretty funny, but I'd be afraid to watch the movie. That word almost gags me.

"People may doubt what you say, but they will believe what you do."

Mick Fisch

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Personally, I'm more turned off by attitudes than words.

Self Righteousness (mostly associated now with social/political stances than religion), Condescension, Entitlement and an insistance that I use the currently PC phrases or adopt the social justice flavor of the month all wind me up. Everyone occasionally ventures into these attitudes without meaning too, and that's normal. When it's pointed out most folks realize they crossed the invisible line and readjust. What grinds me are the ones who own those attitudes and make them their normal positions, insisting the rest of the world needs to put up with their Bovine Fecal Matter (to avoid an unclean word, with another unclean but more socially acceptable phrase).

paul wheaton

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The relevant part is at 1:05

If the woman hates the word "moist" because it sounds pornographic, then I, officially, love this word!

Moist! MOIST! MOIST! MOIST!

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a four letter word that starts with "f"

(hint: it is fact)

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About three days ago I realized that I don't think I have ever said the word "cult". I can't think of an actual cult. I never wanted to be a rajneeshee, but I suspect they would be called a cult. They have interests that are different than mine, but the same can be said for damn near anybody.

I think that we learn about a thousand times more about a person that says the word "cult" than whoever they are pointing at.

Probably the same can be said for ....

greed
jerk
dick
asshole

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paul wheaton

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How about "deserve"?

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John Wolfram

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Didn't Paul mention in one of the podcast's that "namaste" seems to have the functional definition of "I'm about to fuck up your shit."

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John Wolfram wrote:Didn't Paul mention in one of the podcast's that "namaste" seems to have the functional definition of "I'm about to fuck up your shit."

For the longest time I thought "namaste" meant "I will fuck up your shit tomorrow". I looked it up and it is supposed to mean "I bow to the divine in you."

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paul wheaton wrote:How about "deserve"?

Oh how I HATE that word. It's so often thrown around without really any thought. People say, "I worked hard, I deserve ______" Well, if hard work is all we're going by, there's a lot of people in the world who work harder and have harder lives--don't they "deserve" more than you? It's also far too easy to say, "You deserve a break" to a friend when they're going through a hard time. How or where is that break coming--who's going to give it to them? And, why do they get when refugees in Sudan don't? It's a way to say you support someone, without actually doing anything for them.

It's kind of up there with "Bless." Now, some people know what the word means, and use it appropriately. But, more often it's thrown around thoughtlessly. And, frankly, I myself don't quite have a grasp on what bless means, other than when I'm being a blessing (a help) to someone. And, if I don't know what a word really means, I'm not about to use it...and I'm pretty sure at least 80% of the people who use it, use it without really thinking deeply about the meaning of it.

Another word I hate is "Everyone"--as in "Everyone knows that." If everyone knew it, why are we discussing it?

I also can't stand, "Common sense," which is generally a way for people to--without using any logic--tell someone else they're wrong. They can't explain why they themselves are right, other than it's "common sense." And, any way, just because "everyone" thinks something is "common sense," doesn't mean it's a good, logical, or right thing.

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Judith Browning

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Not long ago, after I learned in a discussion here that 'smilies' really bothered some folks and were removed from the reply box I tried to avoid using them in replies to those who were bothered by them...I had never looked at them in any way but silly and light hearted before that conversation.

Permies is the first and only forum I've been on...I like the be nice rule and I've learned a lot (including how to spell 'alot'). I find myself wary of using 'should' and 'but' and 'you' and a few other words...that's been good for me. I've never been bothered by the word 'fuck'. I try to write more concisely than my usual ramble.

I don't want to lose my comfort with any more words

I think there are almost as many ways of understanding many words and phrases as there are members here, especially with the international nature of the site.

Many folks that I enjoy and respect have written in this thread listing 'words' that they don't like, even hate! and now I'm a little nervous about trying to post without using 'those' words as I've always been lazy about vocabulary.

I think it's hard enough to speak the same language as our partners/spouses/friends when face to face...the written word is very challenging and I think (do I use that too often?) we ~~should~~ might? could? give each other a break and assume that someone is speaking from the heart (is that offensive?) or at least trying to be helpful.

~~namaste~~
~~peace~~
~~resist!~~

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

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I must admit I don't like deserve as I find it's used to justify devision and being judgmental of others for example the poor deserve XXX it's used as a way of avoiding talking about rights in my opinion thus enables discrimination and charity over rights and public service.

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common sense isn't

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I had no idea smilies bothered some people. That’s unfortunate. Like Judith, Permies is the only forum I’ve ever participated in. I never had a myspace page when that was a thing and I’ve never been on facebook. I’ve never done any “social” internet anything. I like this place, it’s full of nice people who share similar interests that I have and these folks have made me feel welcome here.

I also don’t want to lose comfort with words that may irritate others. What good will it do if we all end up walking on egg shells here afraid to offend others? I think I write with tact and post with kindness, no one’s ever informed me otherwise. I consider myself a nice guy, and will do just about anything to help other people, but I’m also not going to change who I am to appease others.

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James Freyr wrote:I also don’t want to lose comfort with words that may irritate others. What good will it do if we all end up walking on egg shells here afraid to offend others? I think I write with tact and post with kindness, no one’s ever informed me otherwise.

That's part of what the moderation is all about. We try to figure out what is likely, or intended, to offend. And what is perfectly ok and people are just being oversensitive to if they become offended. It's a blurry line sometimes, but if you've never had a post put on probation to inform you that you've failed to be nice, I'd be inclined to not worry about eggshells too much and keep walking the way you always have here.

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Sometimes a good "Damnit all to Hell!" can reduce tension a good deal more than "Oh, Shucky Darn" could ever manage. I don't know why that is, but it is a fact, as most people will admit. I have worked in some pretty rough jobs, both military and civilian and my virgin ears have been pretty thoroughly violated over the years.

Still, I find the word "fuck" generally offensive. Partly it bothers me because it's so overused, partly maybe a holdover from old rules I grew up with and still generally adhere to.

I've noticed that some peoples cussing doesn't bother me while other individuals, using the same terms do. It just sounds sounds different coming out of some mouths than others. The group makeup also makes a difference to me. Cussing in large groups comes off as sounding worse (maybe I see cussing as more intimate behavior). Cussing in mixed groups sounds worse to me also, maybe for the same reason.

As a general rule, women cussing sounds worse to me than men cussing, especially if they are saying "fuck" a lot. I don't know why,but it just sounds bad to me. I recognize it's a double standard. I'm ok with some double standards, like the one that says I open doors for ladies and moderate my own language around them. At one time it was called 'consideration' or 'good manners'.

When cussing bothers me, it's partly because the cusser sounds stupid to me (some people sound like they only know a few words, so they have to overuse and misuse the few they do know). I tend to be offended by stupidity, which is probably evidence of stupidity on my part. (Stupid is different from ignorance, ignorance can be corrected, stupid is forever).

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It is difficult for me.
I learned the English language at school, in the 1970's, much of it was Shakespeare's English. Some more English I learned by listening songs in English (sung by singers from many different countries, singing in English because ... that's what most singers do).
Of course at school they did not teach us the 'dirty words'.
Also they didn't teach us the way people in the USA use the English language. I am getting a little more used to the American English now, watching Youtube videos, listening podcasts and reading a lot ...
Still I do not know exactly what words to use and what words not to use. I know I did use offending language at least a few times, only becoming aware of it afterwards, because of the reaction

"Also, just as you want men to do to you, do the same way to them" (Luke 6:31)

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I've noticed with myself that cuss words in a foreign language, even when I know what they mean, have no visceral impact on me. I think it's a learned reaction, best learned when you're small. A bar of soap was involved in my education of what words were not ok, (lifebuoy poisoning).

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Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:Still I do not know exactly what words to use and what words not to use.

That is also true for those of us who grew up speaking english....the meaning and usage of certain words frequently change out from under us.

I know I did use offending language at least a few times, only becoming aware of it afterwards, because of the reaction

Again, even growing up with the english language, it's impossible to know everyone elses sensitivities to certain words and phrases.

I'm studying French (again). If I had to explain something in that language I hope that everyone would be very patient with me. I haven't had the nerve to post in a french permaculture forum I am attempting to follow. I know I would never be as fluent as you Inge Leonora or others here who speak english as a second language.

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jim hughes

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posted 7 years ago

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I'm not a fan of sissy swear words IE frik, gosh, darn etc. I don't trust people who don't curse and less even the ones that fake it! It's the whole people who go to church need church theory. Oh and I'm getting tired of the word or words "off grid, offgrid". Just loosing its meaning but I haven't found a suitable replacement soooo...

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Erwin Decoene

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posted 7 years ago

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Politically correct ?

is on my list.

Mark Brunnr

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posted 7 years ago

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jim hughes wrote:I'm not a fan of sissy swear words IE frik, gosh, darn etc. I don't trust people who don't curse and less even the ones that fake it! It's the whole people who go to church need church theory. Oh and I'm getting tired of the word or words "off grid, offgrid". Just loosing its meaning but I haven't found a suitable replacement soooo...

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David Livingston

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I don't like the words politically correct either , it's a phrase used to hide obnoxious views that someone is afraid to say up front in my experiance such as racist 5h1t :-)

David

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Todd Parr

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posted 7 years ago

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I have come to detest "safe space" and "shaming".

"People may doubt what you say, but they will believe what you do."

Dan Boone

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jim hughes wrote:I'm not a fan of sissy swear words IE frik, gosh, darn etc. I don't trust people who don't curse and less even the ones that fake it!

Just for fun: the linguistic term for these is “minced oathes”.

More fun: there is a newsy, somewhat academic “sweary blog about swearing” at this URL for folks interested in the detailed linguistics and sociology of swearing in English:

https://stronglang.wordpress.com

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Huck Johnson

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posted 5 years ago

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I hate saying 'you know' when describing something because it means I can't explain it in normal language. When I avoid it by figuring how to explain something beforehand, it's much easier to teach because a newbie can understand what I'm saying.

Lee Gee

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posted 5 years ago

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The "C" word was a word never to be used. Only angry men who hated women used that word. Then I was on a trip to the UK, and in certain circles they used the "C" word like the word "the". It was not emotionally charged for them. I retrained my ears on the fly to interpret it differently. It's not the word but my interpretation.

I'll throw into the mix for inaccuracy purposes 'always' and 'never' cause I haven't experienced too many always and nevers, especially when flung during a disagreement.

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