a paul wheaton community

Paul and Kelda talk about permaculture ethics, social justice, and the bigger picture in this podcast: podcast

Paul shares about his plans for community.

How about a Cooperative of people buying a farm together and sharing work and expenses?? CPC Community Permaculture Cooperative

Apolonia McCoy wrote:I would like to start a small( Buddhist principle) healing center with permaculture in Southern California,I have got land 2.5 acres 1 hour from San Luis Obispo . Any permie interested? I am designing now. Are you interested in joining?

I suggest that you start a new thread in this forum and then another thread in the southwest usa forum.

John Wheeler wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:
Are you sure you have the number right?  086?  The one where I am ranting by myself in the car?  Best?

That's not a mistake.  Granted, I am relatively new to permies.com, I have only heard a couple dozen podcasts so far.  I am not new to Permaculture, however; I took my PDC almost 14 years ago.  So while I enjoy your podcasts, most are refining concepts I'm already familiar with.  When I hear something radically new (to me, like your ideas for an IC), I get excited.

Should you ever get to a point where you have heard ALL of my podcasts, I would like to get a list of questions from you. Maybe even do a podcast with you. I can't remember what all I have said in my podcasts or out of my podcasts and would prefer to not repeat myself if I can help it.

kirk dillon wrote:How about a Cooperative of people buying a farm together and sharing work and expenses?? CPC Community Permaculture Cooperative

This sounds like a topic for a new thread?

I came and took another look at this thread because somebody in another forum blew a gasket over it. Something about how I will only tolerate people that are willing to be my life slave or something like that. And then something about how conflict resolution is that any conflict with me means you get booted off the property.

Clearly, such a person would not be a fit. Further, I think this person missed the entire point of this thread.

As for life slave: I think it is possible to get into a type of relationship where somebody would trade farm labor for room and board. Of course, if it ever got to the point that either party didn't like it, the "slave" could leave. Seems more like a choice. Anybody could simply choose to not come to the property for such slavery. I think serfdom might be more accurate. And others would be more like renters.

I think the conflict resolution stuff is about spot on. But I also think that the people coming to the property would be prepared for that possibility. They would know about me and have decided that my philosophies work well with their philosophies, thus eliminating most conflict. And if a difference arises, it would be better to have respectful communication rather than "do what I say you fucker." It actually seems really, really simple and not a big deal. And I do expect that 95% of the people will, in time, either choose to leave or be asked/required to leave because of differences with me.

I think people that need a different form of conflict resolution are planning on being a source of conflict - for me. And I already see enough conflict directed at me, that I really don't want more in my own home.

I like the idea that awesome people will show up and never leave and we will all be the best of friends and never argue. And, I think that is just fantasy.

And I have been told by a LOT of people that as soon as I have land, they are bringing a tent and are dedicated to being my unpaid servant for years. Weird. And seriously cool. And THAT is what this thread is about. There are people that are, right now, in a position to trust me utterly. They accept the terms of being kicked off at any moment. And they don't need pay. They don't need consensus.

Paul and Jocelyn discuss consensus based community and Paul's willingness to be an asshole in this podcast: podcast 110

I just listened to this podcast, I am now no longer a podcast virgin... Very funny and a lot of truth to it.

I don't do decision by committee either. I will ask people to get input, if I feel I need it, and then move forward. Anyone has the right to ask me why, but I don't tolerate questions that are really a guise for questioning my authority. I am the owner / president - there is one person in charge. But I delegate very well and tend to give people who can handle it more authority than they might be comfortable with - but they always have to think "what would Fred do here".

If I were to live in Paul's community, I would assume he would be in charge, and I would be thrilled that it wasn't me. All I would need to know is what his rules / guidelines are, so I wouldn't waste time or money coming if they weren't something I could live with. I think what you are hitting Paul is there are a lot of people who grew up and didn't think they had to do what their parents said, even when their parents were footing the bill. I never understood that. I moved out when I was 19, so I could do my own thing, but I didn't think I had the right to do what they were against, when they were supporting me.

Now that they are older and so am I, if they ever need a place to live, that is fine I will provide it, and they live by my rules since it is my place. I obviously don't want to bother with a lot of rules of behavior since I have no desire to do that, but there are somethings that I will not permit on my property, or even near me. If someone is behaving a certain way, either they or I am going to leave, and since I am the owner, guess who it will be...

Those who have had to be in authority tend to have very little problem when others are exercising authority. It is nice when someone else has to carry the burden for a while.

I've been looking at intentional communities and how I want to live.

One of the things I like here is that you have opinions and are articulate enough to state them. I also have opinions and am articulate. At the same time, I have no need for you to always agree with me and I assure you that I will not always agree with you.

I like this better than the places where everyone is being so busy being politically correct that they have forgotten to be honest.

Some things I try to do...
"Fix the problem, not the blame."
Follow my values without compromise.

I'd love to find this kind of community in Washington, near Portland... on the Washington side of the river.

Suggestions? Help?

Beverly,

At this point in time, I think that if you want to see this type of community in the vancouver area, you are going to have to create it.

It is possible that you can check in with jacqueline and joseph freeman in battleground, washington. they don't exactly have a community like this, but it might be worth a visit.

YES. 1.00.

I'm learning. I'm not an expert. I do have skills.
I learn quickly.

I'd be a happy 'indian' for the 'chief(s)'.

It was funny hearing you muse about this idea. A million years ago, a bunch of girls and I rented a big house on a lake. It was a lot less drama than it could have been because we decided to come up with a system to share the work/rent that made a lot of sense to us. We had a list of "chores" and each room was assigned a different dollar value depending on its desirability. It ended up being a percentage of the total rent plus maybe 20%. So each chore was assigned a dollar value. Each person had to come up with enough chore value and rent to cover their room rate. What happened was if you didn't cover your chore quota, you paid an equal number of dollars into a community fund. That fund went to cover any rent that wasn't paid and we always had a surplus. Periodically, the fund would get a little large and the excess funds would go toward a party fund. So your contribution for a month might look like this:

Your room rate: $500
You pay your minimum of $300
You do dishes for $5 per time x3 times for a point total of $15
You vacuum the common areas twice for a total of $14
You make dinner for the family twice for $50 (because paying for food is expensive)
You rake the leaves for $30
You clean the bathroom for $20
You pay $71 into the communal fund.

Someone else does the same thing, but adds another $80 of chores. If there is left over from the communal fund for that month, they may choose to take that money out of the communal fund. There is still some money left over to cover short money months later or if the buildup gets pretty big, we make a trip to the wine store and enjoy a nice evening in and order some take-out.

It was the most drama-free living I've ever had, but it took about a day of all of us sitting down and inventing this system and assigning values to each chore and room, but once it was done, no one fought or argued about who was doing more or less and nobody had to be the boss. Magic.

Sure Paul, I am interested. BUT a few things.
1) Must bring my lovely dogs
2)ONLY my dogs share MY bed/bedroom. My babies lay where they want
3)I can not stand smelly hippies
4)I hate kumbya and stupid hippie songs around the fire.
5)Will never be a vegetarianism freak. Sorry, bears eat meat and other bears if hungry. Those noisy brats across the street look tender.
6)I find a lot of people do not treat animals or people very well. I do not stand cruelty.
7)I grew up under dictators who lost their minds. I still sweat when a door slams. So, I need to be around people willing to meet me half way.
Preppers give me a little gas too. They talk about GOD and FREEDOM a lot, but are mostly filled with hate.

So, with that said. I do like to work hard, tend to be a dreamer with rough hands. I understand technology and have worked for a new tech company before. Mostly, I hate to be bored. Warm and comfortable is good. Ecology is good. So is a hot shower in the morning and before bed. Love to learn. Love to write my stories.

Drinks are good in the right situation. I do not mind a 12 hour day, if I can nap with my dogs mid way thru the day. Also need to walk around at night with them under a full moon. That is our time to howl, dance and honor the rest of the pack that has passed on.

4.63, with the possibility of up to but not including 6.37 depending on a variety of factors, primarily regarding my current situation.

My wife and I find ourselves as the autocrats in an intentional community of sorts inasmuch as we own a restaurant that, through the hard work and dedication of several veteran employees, may break into the zone of profitability this year, three years after opening. Even if it does, it's going to be along the lines of "pizza money" (to borrow an expression). The fact is that, currently, the restaurant primarily exists as an operation that keeps seventeen people employed rather than a profit-making enterprise. As the owners, we have hopes for the future, but are mostly content with it being a break-even operation (I'm otherwise employed). My point is that the community we've built is significant; we're supportive of each other outside of "work", and we all work very well together. However, it's strength is rooted in the fact that, at any time, either my wife or I can show someone the door. Everyone knows where the ultimate bounds are, the borders to the community, as it were.

As I study intentional communities of a more traditional sort (a recent avocation, engaged entirely through reading on the Interwebs), I find that discussions of them are mostly centered around ideas about how the community should be structured from an internal operation perspective: how decisions are made, chores divided, resources distributed, etc. It strikes me that, while these things are important, a more significant question is that of the inputs to and outputs of the community. In the same way that no nation can survive entirely cut off from the rest of the world (though North Korea sure seems to try), no community can survive completely cut off from the other communities around it. Even if all the food and other energy sources consumed were provided by the property, SOMETHING has to come in from outside. And to acquire that something, resources have to be available. Where do they come from?

As a systems analyst, everything becomes a system of inputs and outputs. In human-based systems, much flexibility has to be in place to account for a variety of factors including sickness, lack of proper training, lack of interest, vacation, and a dozen other things. But having an autocratic structure, where someone has the final say (and the burden of using it), can mitigate many of the problems in human-based systems, particularly suppressing (though not entirely avoiding) political troubles. It lets people stay focused on the business of producing whatever the output(s) of the system are.

I have some ideas around the architecture and implementation of communities, but they're only theoretical, and I look forward to hearing input from those of you who have lived in, led, implemented, and otherwise learned more about ICs than I have. I hope you all can put up with me while I learn.

Cheers.

J.D. Ray

My wife and I would be interested if we had more information on your land resources and how they are allocated. I know how to grow a little but my areas that I know more and practice more are pottery, textiles, blacksmithing and making and repairing mechanical clocks. I also am a good astronomer that makes accurate astrolabes and sundials. I am also a good teacher when it comes to math and science. I will devote hours to getting a job done and so will my wife. We also have animal husbandry skills when it comes to small animals like rabbits and chinchillas.

If we were to move anywhere I would need clay, hay, sand, iron ore and/or copper ore, water and wood to make charcoal. We are somewhat in need of quieter living so we would also need to build our own hovel in order to be useful to your community with our present skills.

There would just be no place for us, no matter how tempting to come, if there were so little resources that we had to take full time outside jobs just to afford the materials to produce needed products and services for the community. We would want to devote our time to 100% within the community.

All that being said, we don't mind someone else having authority as long as some things would be agreed upon before moving.

I give it a 40% approval as currently presented.

Can I be a 'temp'? Maybe learn what I can and then get out before I get crazy or sumpting like that.
I cook, can, chop wood and I have some plow experience. No sexy time though.

Wow, great stuff. Just wish I was your way.

9. Please contact me when this is going to happen! (c;

I'm a 10.. I've lurked here for quite awhile now and I know I could learn a lot living in a paul wheaton community.

For the past few years my intuition has been screaming at me to learn all I can about permaculture, foraging and hunting/fishing.

I love hard, physical labor and I'm really eager to learn. I desperately want to get out of the city too. I'm a 28 year old guy living in Seattle by the way.

Paul -

How's the land search going? What parameters are you using (location, size, etc.)

Roger Union wrote:Paul -

How's the land search going? What parameters are you using (location, size, etc.)

The land search is about to go into turbo mode.

The search will be the most intense for 30 minutes from the Missoula airport, but open to the idea of up to 60 minutes.

200 acres preferred. 80 acres considered. Sloped land at least 30% woodland. Not too steep. Covered in "weeds" is good. At least 30% south facing slope.

Prefer surrounded by woodland. Prefer away from public roads.

Saw some land that would work but it had a county road cutting it in half.

Another chunk of land was 95% steep north facing slope.

Another chunk was at the top of some freaky steep mountains.

Another chunk had a few scraggly trees in some gullies - not enough to build anything.

Another chunk had bulk power lines.

I've seen a few that would work okay, but they were way too expensive.

paul wheaton wrote:

Roger Union wrote:Paul -

How's the land search going? What parameters are you using (location, size, etc.)

The land search is about to go into turbo mode.

I understand. Been looking for years now (have never "owned" real estate) but the more I read and learn regarding farming, permaculture, etc. the more I want to press the `Turbo' button myself (yes I had an old x86 with that mode). I also have enough cash to buy a good chunk of land outright.

The search will be the most intense for 30 minutes from the Missoula airport, but open to the idea of up to 60 minutes.

Makes sense. You'll want a lot of outside help, and folks will want to visit.

200 acres preferred. 80 acres considered. Sloped land at least 30% woodland. Not too steep. Covered in "weeds" is good. At least 30% south facing slope.

OK. Bigger than my goals (at least 10 or so) but I'm looking more for just a homestead; enough resources for me, family, friends' food would be fine with me. I assume you're targeting <= $4,000.00/acre and checking Realtor listings, Craigslist, and eBay? Anything I'm missing?...

Prefer surrounded by woodland. Prefer away from public roads.

Saw some land that would work but it had a county road cutting it in half.

Another chunk of land was 95% steep north facing slope.

Another chunk was at the top of some freaky steep mountains.

Another chunk had a few scraggly trees in some gullies - not enough to build anything.

Another chunk had bulk power lines.

I've seen a few that would work okay, but they were way too expensive.

Again, curious what $/acre you're targeting. I agree that most seem way overpriced; actually, the smaller the land the more ridiculous the prices are. I see 1 acre for $90,000.00/acre essentially, but then I'll see 20 acres and they're asking $45,000.00 TOTAL ($2-3K/acre).

What about water/oil/gas/mineral rights?

Hi -- I'm interested in the Paul Wheaton community -- I was about to email you, like a cold call, to see if you would be interested in forming a sepp holzer permie community a la anastasia/ringing cedars 2.5 acre 'splendid garden' before I found your paul wheaton community topic. The way to avoid the tyrant vs intentional community gone bad, is, in my opinion, what anastasia describes in her books as the way we lived for tens of thousands of years in loosley formed settlements, self governing, made up of one hectare homesteads. Privacy or company as you choose. I am determined to experience this reality as much as I possibly can before I die peacefully in my sleep, on my 'front porch', approximately 35 years from now. I am a total sepp holzer fan and I love what marcine jabowski is trying to do at factor e farms. I'm really interested in high altitude permaculture and have been working to introduce sepp holzer's ideas to the Lake Tahoe resort community and the Paiute indian tribe in Yerington, Nevada. I wish I could have made it to the flathead May 3-13 workshop. I'm about to adopt two great pyrenees dogs " Starlight' and 'Boo Boo Bear" having had a malamut shepard english lab 'Moti" for 15 years who crossed over in 2007 and who I miss dearly, along with my sweetie girl "laurel robyn" who crossed over in 2004 (my daughter). I went to meet michael pilarski in Tonasket, Wa two years ago in February, and he introduced me to sepp holzer and anastasia. I wrote a paper about permaculture as economic development last year that was received well at the first women's permaculture convergence. Starhawk gave me her card. I really have difficulty describing who I am, but I sure like what you are doing at permies.com and your podcasts. Permies.com is permanently on my favorites bar. I've backpacked all over the west and love Montana. If I passed your scoring thing, it would be nice to hear from you. I believe in angels, fairies and life after death. Most animals trust me. Thanks, Jen Miles, from the great state of the eastern slope of the Sierras. (530) 448-0949

It basically sounds like the landowner is the employer/boss, except that everyone lives with them instead of going somewhere else at the end of the day, and the employees' "salary" isn't necessarily always in money. I can't see why it should be controversial - it's a much better tested and proven method of group organization than consensus. Most human societies worked on a mix of tradition, benign anarchy, and limited autocracy. I'd expect a successful intentional community to be similar.

The most successful alternate culture communities I know of - monasteries and nunneries - were/are very selective in who was let in, were unified by powerful belief systems, and were extremely autocratic in theory. In practice, working autocracies involve surprisingly little exertion of authority.

Let me know if you get anything off the ground, Mr. Wheaton. I don't have the resources to get MG certification, but I have read hundreds of gardening books. And it'd be way more interesting than part-time.

Several things come to mind Paul. If you have set standards to live by with some ability to have some austerity for the tenant’s /partners I would be in the 7 or 8. Certain shared things enhance a lifestyle. A small amount of collectivism is not in itself a bad way to go. A cheese cave is an expense hard to justify for a homestead family but in a shared community a cheese cave would be a useful. With in a community there could be a reasonable level of specialist to draw from. Just the complexities of herbal medicines could occupy one person’s professional energies to master.
But mostly all people in the community should not share all the fruits. If I have rented space growing shitake mushrooms and make a killing selling them I should not receive a share of my fruits equal to the person that does charcoal drawings all day. I should not expect that person to share with me when they make a million off of their art either. Words wealth redistribution should not be norm. I do believe though it should be encourage doing all purchasing or bartering of goods with in the community first to keep any resources gained into the community. Money is a resource to be kept on property as much as possible. Selling goods and services off property should be encouraged and buying goods and services off property discourage.

Hi everybody, how is the project going on? I appreciate people who try new things and do it by themselves. Wish you realize your dreams!

My heart says 10, but my head says 1.

There's nothing in this world I want more than to purchase 10-20 acres somewhere in the back woods of Wy-mon-kota. Get some goats, some chickens and hopefully a like-minded, moderately attractive female and disappear. Never to be seen again.
Everything I do is, in some way, working toward a reasonable approximation of that goal.

I grew up on a hog farm. We also had chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys, and an ass-load of barn cats. We grew all our own grain for feed. Ground and mixed it ourselves. We butchered all our own meat. A huge garden every year. Blah blah blah yadda yadda.
I like to think I've already got most of the skills I'll need to make my dream happen. And I'm working like a mad-man to learn the skills I don't have. I'm also starting to realize that a few co-conspirators would make things a lot easier.

I think I would be OK with the idea of a 'Benevolent Dictator' but I would absolutely have to meet him in person first and spend some time getting to know him. For the right person, I'm willing to work my ass into the ground, but I have to be sure he's the right person first.
You seem like a nice guy, Paul, but you can only learn so much about somebody through the internet.

Ditto.
Plus, I kinda like my availability to my healthcare.Im Canadian and like my universal healthcare. I have aging parents and we dont have to worry about refusal of treatments or death panels. *eye roll*

Hi. I just wanted to comment on the podcast. But first I'm a 7 until I meet the man, and shake his hand, after that I suspect a 10 (I've only listened to 30% of the podcasts after all) My life situation though is far too complicated to actually be even a 1 at the moment. (kids and job, still one foot in the system)

OK, so I really liked the scale or levels from 100 - 10,000. What I picture is the zone of highest levels expanding over time, maybe even having celebrations around certain areas of land being raised gradually as living habits and the land heals. The lower levels could also expand as property adjacent was acquired. In that way the numbering system is helpful but there could be names at certain thresholds, ie. 1000, 2000, 3000...

I also thought it would be cool concerning the 20 under 1 roof idea, if there could be 1 room set aside for people who would like to come and visit. Perhaps they could pay double the amount of the general household. They could come and learn and live and laugh for two weeks or so, get inspired, see what kind of fit they might be.

Paul I read your article on fiefdom or how you handle your java and permies sites and I was very impressed. I was initially against the idea but your arguments are very compelling. I am not experienced with intentional community, so I would like to read more in the future. I could say this somewhere else, but I would just like to thank you for all your output. Some of us are really awake in the present system and feel trapped, the podcasts have helped to keep a little tiny light going for me. -Jeff

Is this thread still living?

Paul, maybe you could help the discussion along by discussing some of the characteristics of the 5,000 acres. You know, things like water and forest cover ... existing orchards and other assets. What potentials do you see for skilled and experienced hands?

Also, maybe a hypothetical peek at some of the things you hope others will be able to do to move the larger project along.

I think you are on track with the approach, although I'd prefer to think of you as the "servant leader". Tough and steady but always teaching. Asking nothing of others you are unwilling to do yourself, and most wise with your delegation.

be well and prosper

vinekeeper

This thread started off in the communities forum as .... an experimental poll.

Today, it is very close to becoming a reality.

I created this new forum, and moved this thread to the new forum. My intent is to try to pour in all of my theories and philosophies in this space.

Blessings y'all,

The short version...

Depending on the vision and integrity of a leader and their alignment with my own values and goals, I could fall anywhere within the 5-7 range, depending on the intention of the land and the people involved. (I'm new to the site so just getting to know my way around here.) My main concern would be when Benevolent Dictator has a bad hair day...

Appropriate land -- and (like-enough-minded?) people -- can be hard to come by and I've been talking with folks, trying to find the proper alignment for myself. I spent last summer traveling across the country looking for this, including Missoula, though I didn't know about Paul and his wonderful work here at the time.

The long version for those with time on their hands...

Some intentional communities, transition towns, and cooperative leaning organizations implementing social permaculture are adopting Sociocracy, aka Dynamic Governance or DSG (Dynamic Self Governance), guided by values like Transparency, Consent, and Equal Value (with different roles), and the practice of "Paramount Objection". I'm looking for workshops in this approach because it ties into a film project on democracy I've been planning, so if anyone has recommendations, please hit me with 'em.

As a recovering "software engineer" and refugee from the corporate "High Tech Industry" with an educational background in political thought, economics, and sociology, my sense of things was that when software developers and their managers could operate more closely approaching a cooperative model -- regardless of what someone was calling it (Scrum, Agile, Extreme Programming, Lean, Getting Real, ... blahblah) -- more work got done with higher quality; people had more fun; more creativity and innovation bubbled up; there were fewer petty squabbles, power struggles, and less back-biting... in other words, the end results included better inputs and outputs, including happier people who were more likely to take pride and ownership in their work and genuinely help others with theirs.

HOWEVER... it was rare that such a utopia was achieved with any lasting consistency in the larger corporate environments where I worked. Though I've spoken with others in smaller shops who swear they work this way. And as an independent consultant where I was working more closely and face-to-face with my clients and subcontractors, I found some of these principles in play, not that we were consciously attempting to conform to them. Everyone respected each others expertise, needs, and ideas and so came up with the best decisions by getting everything on the table (transparency) and trusting we were all working toward the same goals, iterating via feedback loops and tests, reciprocity, etc.

For me, it may have to be with a smaller group on a smaller plot of land to begin with. Then once we build something we tweak together and come up with something can be proud of and want to share, we would open it up to others to help us continue and evolve the community. After all, from my limited but growing understanding, this is how Mother Nature tends to work (species and individuals that overshoot eventually get slapped down hard)... and She's done a pretty good job so far. In the end I think I want to follow Her and the land's intention.

Of course, the downside to this approach is fewer people likely means less land to work with in the beginning and so how does one scale it up when you're ready? What's the best size land? 1/4 to 1 acre per small group? And what skillsets are a minimum? This is what I'm currently struggling with. Like software teams (Mythical Man Month), perhaps there's an optimal sized intentional community (6-7?), and it's best to grow only so large and then network and trade (goods, people, ideas, and implementations) between other communities. Get too big, like the Greek city states, and external and internal strife may become inevitable. Every empire has fallen eventually, and most emperors at the end of the run don't fare too well. Larger systems (like the honey bee and ants?) seem to require some form of tyranny and totalitarianism (overt, managed or inverted -- see Sheldon Wolin's "Democracy, INC.") but the queen will always be replaced by her workers and drones when she wears out, or new swarms will develop when things get out of hand.

Perhaps federating a larger community into smaller ones might be something to consider? I believe this is what Damanhur in Italy does. I think they call them nucleos, and they each have their own particular leanings, styles, and goals. I need to look into this further as a friend spent last summer there and has been blogging about his experience.

http://biosdesign.us/blog/damanhur-trip-may-2012-blog-posts

-Victor

p.s.

FWIW, here are a few links of Sociocracy from my notes...

http://www.communitiesconference.org/info/new-dynamic-governance-intensive/
"Is there an effective method of decision-making and organization that’s efficient enough to get things done? Can it result in greater equality than majority rule democracy? Sociocracy, also known as Dynamic Governance, is a whole-systems approach to all that; communities, businesses, and organizations around the world use it. With this method, you can spend less time in meetings and arrive at better decisions, while getting more done. You can optimize group intelligence and wisdom while retaining individual perspectives and contributions."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociocracy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociocracy#In_contemporary_practice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyw0gBsDeho

1. Transparency
2. Consent
3. Equal Value (with different roles)

Use of the practice of "paramount objection".

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1661661.We_the_People
'"We the People" describes a new method of governing that creates more inclusive and efficient organizations. Sociocracy ensures the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to everyone, and in the process, makes businesses more profitable and non-profit organizations more effective.'

Sociocracy / Dynamic Governance
http://www.veoh.com/watch/v183564122SD33Z4z?h1=Sociocracy+%2F+Dynamic+Governance

The new farm incubator that Jenny Pell is involved with is moving toward this.
http://www.communitybydesignllc.org/

More videos on the web:
https://www.google.com/search?q=sociocracy

hi,
sounds good that you would like to see 10,000 such groups! 'together' means a lot many things that cannot be foreseen. am indian and community is something simple to me. here in italy it seems that the social systems are extremely impermanent. would be great to speak with paul on our work on seed banking here and the possibility to collaborate in the future

Allibeth Cohen wrote:9. Please contact me when this is going to happen! (c;

i am at a 7--more info would be needed. I am a Certified Hospice Registered Nurse and have been drawn to the HUSP portion of the vision. I can see this as a paradise for those who are ill, recuperating, and healing. I would like to have the option to take a break, (Maybe) in the permaculture area--is this possible or must one permanently stay in one area? I have all skills needed, I think. Also, I am a fast learner.

Hey Paul,

I can completely understand your reticence to continue being the benevolent dictator of this online community once you do find land and start writing your symphonies. I do hope though that you keep someone to continue moderating this fine community and especially many updates of what is going on in your new land.

I think well documenting your projects would be incredibly beneficial to not just the community as a whole but to get more people into Permaculture and spread the word in general. Before and after shots, cunstruction videos/shots, seasonal shots, etc etc

Cheers,
Elia

Paul,
why so close to the airport? 30 min or even 1 hr, seem so close for so many reasons.

That is the only thing I do not understand in this thread and land search issues. For me, my thinking this is just too close to the airport and just too close to other so called civilization types. They tend to build up around the airports, thus leaving you in time to the mercy of the local authorities. Farms especially non-traditional farms do not do well in those situations.

I just want to add my 2 cents to this very interesting and important topic.

I am not currently interested in relocating, but I kind of wish such an oppertunity existed before I got so settled. Paul I think your approach is commendable. Nothing worthwhile was ever done by commitee, and I believe that living with you as a landlord would be reasonable and fun.

One suggestion I have is to create at least one guest house, where visitors could stay and help and learn. Also perspective residents could then have a mandatory pobation period as a guest before being invited to stay permanently or just a place to stay while building thier own dwelling.

Good luck, I truly hope you are able to make it work.

Victor,

In the software engineering world, I've seen a lot of success and failure. In fact, the reason I got work was the part where things were not going as smoothly as they could be.

At the same time, I remember working somewhere where things were working pretty smoothly and somebody said to me "We could get twice as much done if management had their shit together." My response was "I think what you just said is that if management had their shit together, then they could fire half the people working here. Are you sure that you would be in the half that would be kept?" What I didn't say is that management was figuring out what to do as we were buzzing along. Constantly optimizing the plan. Being human.

I have seen a lot of teams that took great pride in the fact that they were doing agile development. But when I asked them about their practices, it didn't sound agile to me. It sounded cowboy with a coat of agile paint.

It reminds me of people who swear that organic is the only way - except, of course, when they spray herbicides.