Geoff Lawton says grain is not really worth the while - what are your thoughts?

Geoff Lawton on grain there is something to be said for it. But I like a good loaf of bread. I would love to grow it myself.
And also permaculture includes animals, and not only herbivore animals. Chicken, ducks and milking cows need a bit of grain to lay or give milk, at least that is what my information is.
What do you think?
How do you go about the processing procedure of grains, which is the biggest hurdle?
What are your yields per m2? Is it really more efficient to grow starchy root crops in terms of starch output?

Today I have seen several posts with M2, what is that?

I like his way of thinking in the video.  Makes good point for his own desires.

If a person lives in the desert growing grain is good.

So according to the video growing grain where you live would be good, (zone 10a).

Anne Miller wrote:Today I have seen several posts with M2, what is that?

m2 is square metres.

I haven't figured out how to make it look the way it should.

If I do, I'll come back and edit the post...

edit - hold down the alt key then press 0,1,7, 8 and a superscript 2 appears by magic! but only if you use the numeric keypad, not the numbers at the top of the keyboard...

²

m²

Anne Miller wrote:Today I have seen several posts with M2, what is that?

I like his way of thinking in the video.  Makes good point for his own desires.

If a person lives in the desert growing grain is good.

So according to the video growing grain where you live would be good, (zone 10a).

m2 is square meters but my international keyboard does not do that !

From the video summary:

Grains easily fit in places like the deserts and cold climates where there is dormancy and time to process everything. Outside of these climates, grain is inefficient. There are a lot of easier foods to grow in terms of nutrition for the labor required. (zip) However, usually, the amount of work necessary for the food gained just isn’t worth it.

Geoff doesn't go into the alternatives at all, just says other foods are better value. Potatoes are one here that grow good calories and can be fed to livestock as well as people.

I'm experimenting with growing grains (rye, oats, bere barley), and suspect they would be easier fed to livestock than processed for people food....

I think grain has the advantage when it comes to storage duration.
How many roots can be stored for years and still be edible?
This allows surplus to be built up, year over year.
This kind of surplus can equate to food security, but also translate into wealth, with all that comes with that.

The soil building properties of small grains must be part of the equation. Winter rye is likely the best because it spans 2 growing seasons, the root system is phenomenal, especially on fine soils.  We have early seeded oats on all of our tillable acres this spring, some will be left for harvest on our new transitional acres. The balance will get a very shallow incorporation and then a row crop planted. I have oats growing in my garden and will just knife in the garden seeds and let the oats do their thing. Our goal is to feed the soil life first and then let the long days of summer have their way. In 2024 we seeded oats in the spring on our 1st year transitional tillable acres. We harvested a decent and quality oat crop in August. The straw and residue were shallowly incorporated soon after harvest and we got a beautiful volunteer oat cover crop to take us through the winter. 2 crops in one season with a living root in the ground for 6 months. Used some of the 2024 oat crop as seed for this year's cover which we no tilled into last year's soybean stubble. Minimize soil disturbance and good things should follow.

It depends on climate and how adapted the variety is to your soil.

I'm always shocked this time of year.  I plant a packet of seeds from the shop at the same time and density of the peas seeds I've been saving for over 10 years.  This year I got the same variety from the same source.  The new seed are almost an inch tall, maybe 50% survival.  My seed has grown to about 6 inches tall and is climbing the wire nicely.  I sware there are twice as many plants as seeds I planted.

Before saying if something is worth it or not, it's good to grow and save seed in your conditions for a couple of years.  Once it's established, see if it fits in with the farming and lifestyle of the humans.

Nicola,

Ruminants do not need any grain to produce milk. Poultry does not need it either - only if someone wants to produce unnatural roasting chicken (extremely overweight very young bird, very tasty) - in the older times people were eating pullets.

I would say that the same rule applies to grains as to other food products - if it grows for you without extreme effort, pursue it.

I have tried twice: rye and wheat which were taken over by wet season weeds (which is 95% of natives/weeds/invasives that grow here). Then I learned that I have to prepare the soil better, by several shallow cultivations to destroy germinating natives within some timeframe and that I have to use much higher seeding ratios. Also in case of hand sowing, the distribution pattern is not uniform and it allows weed development in more open spots.
Mechanical seeder would be helpful, but it's rather too expensive for my 2000 m2 plot.
I was using recommended  200 kg/ha, so 20 kg per experimental 1000 m2. It was definitely not enough. It's probably right if helped with herbicides and fertilizers. I would opt for two times more to surpress weeds naturally. I may try again in the future.

Growing & processing most grains does seem very labor intensive.  Many crops that can fill a similar nutritional niche are easier to grow and harvest and process.  However, as William Bronson mentioned, the long-term storage potential of grain is attractive.

Disasters like Floods, Fires, Volcano, etc. have the potential to wipe out perennial tree crops or make crop-growing difficult for an extended time.  Having a surplus of grains in storage that last for several years may have kept human settlements alive during multi-year bad weather episodes in the past.  On the other hand, during extreme times, stored grains are more vulnerable to desperate thieves than in-ground potatoes/roots or tree crops.

I have not attempted growing grains on a large scale.  Maize/Corn seems to be the easiest grain crop for harvesting and processing.  
My aim is to fill the grain niche via Chestnuts, Corn, and Potatoes, with some Amaranth and Oats maybe too, and other tree crops.

Also of interest is the work of Wes Jackson and others in developing a system for growing perennial grains in diverse-species Prairie conditions.

Cristobal Cristo wrote:Nicola,

Ruminants do not need any grain to produce milk. Poultry does not need it either - only if someone wants to produce unnatural roasting chicken (extremely overweight very young bird, very tasty) - in the older times people were eating pullets.

I would say that the same rule applies to grains as to other food products - if it grows for you without extreme effort, pursue it.

I have tried twice: rye and wheat which were taken over by wet season weeds (which is 95% of natives/weeds/invasives that grow here). Then I learned that I have to prepare the soil better, by several shallow cultivations to destroy germinating natives within some timeframe and that I have to use much higher seeding ratios. Also in case of hand sowing, the distribution pattern is not uniform and it allows weed development in more open spots.
Mechanical seeder would be helpful, but it's rather too expensive for my 2000 m2 plot.
I was using recommended  200 kg/ha, so 20 kg per experimental 1000 m2. It was definitely not enough. It's probably right if helped with herbicides and fertilizers. I would opt for two times more to surpress weeds naturally. I may try again in the future.

The majority of ruminants available in America very much do need extra carbohydrates to maintain condition while putting out a decent volume of milk. That's why so many who try to just skip it end up milking skeletal animals. While it doesn't strictly need to be grain, that is the most economical way to do it at the moment unless you have groves of nut trees/a good fodder setup/tons of root crops ect. Just because Big Ag pushing grain feeding too far doesn't mean there isn't a reason and utility behind it originally.

I've read accounts of root vegetables being used as winter food for cattle in particular.
Cutting it into smaller pieces was either necessary or very advantageous.
Grain avoids this step entirely and it's useful for many different animals.
It's like fuel that can run your chicken, cow or pig, even if it's not the best fuel for any one of them.

Of course animals can lay eggs, birth litters or give milk without it, but we have been breeding them to thrive on gran for a long time.
All is not lost, there are plenty of people breeding grass and forage reliance back into cattle, pigs and chickens

I'm hoping to create a corn/ fava bean rotation at my friends food pantry garden.
Both can be stored, both can be left to grow on their own, both produce a lot of biomass.
The corn is actually easier to process than the beans, and both keeps for years.

I note that grains supported many populations of farmers who had nothing but stone tools.

William Bronson wrote: I think grain has the advantage when it comes to storage duration.
How many roots can be stored for years and still be edible?
This allows surplus to be built up, year over year.
This kind of surplus can equate to food security, but also translate into wealth, with all that comes with that.

OK you don't need that if you live in zone 10 and up.

First, I think feeding the grain to animals is somewhat easier because it circumvents too much processing.
Then there is the other advantage that it gives your bedding for the animals this is a plus!
I also want to know whether that threshing in the bucket with chains on an electric drill works; it's all over YouTube.

I don’t think it is worthwhile for me to grow. They usually get eaten by wildlife, or they don’t flourish. The only one I’ve had moderate success with is sorghum, surprisingly enough, with corn and millet being okay but still being gobbled by birds, going moldy in the cob, or other issues. Not only that but last year I fell ill, and would feel strange and weak and numb other nasty things after eating grains, so I don’t eat them anymore (except in very small quantities). Oddly, I ate the neighbor’s field corn raw, gleaned from the field after harvest, and it didn’t bother me.

There are plenty of other things to eat that trying to grow something that gets chomped and sometimes makes me sick, seems like I needn’t much bother. However, sorghum keeps coming up in conversation and random places, so I might try again this year.

Nicola Bludau wrote:

William Bronson wrote: I think grain has the advantage when it comes to storage duration.
How many roots can be stored for years and still be edible?
This allows surplus to be built up, year over year.
This kind of surplus can equate to food security, but also translate into wealth, with all that comes with that.

OK you don't need that if you live in zone 10 and up.

I think zone 10 includes places that are threatened by multi year droughts.
Surplus seems ideal in these situations.