• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Carla Burke
  • Nancy Reading
  • r ranson
  • John F Dean
  • Timothy Norton
  • paul wheaton
  • Jay Angler
stewards:
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Anne Miller
  • Tereza Okava
master gardeners:
  • Christopher Weeks
gardeners:
  • M Ljin
  • Matt McSpadden
  • Megan Palmer

a comma question - I know, it depends.

 
steward & author
Posts: 42972
Location: Left Coast Canada
16016
9
art trees books chicken cooking fiber arts
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I know this will depend on the style guide, but mine is strangely silent on this topic (or more likely, I'm crap at finding the information in the book).  So I'm wondering what you guys think.

If I sign a communication, saying thank you and then my name, I would often put:

blablabla
Thank you, R.


But what if I want to start the email by thanking someone else?  For example:

Thank you Bob, that is just what I needed to know.

To my mind, there would not be a comma between "thank you" and "Bob" because the thank you is acting both as an expression of gratitude and a stand-in for "dear".  I don't start a letter like this:

Dear, Bob,

That would be weird.

And yet, every spelling and grammar checker HATES me for saying "thank you bob,"  Multiple error messages and often autocorrections to put the comma between thank you and the name.

Is it just the Canadian in me that feels starting a sentence with "thank you person, and more words on the subject" is a normal way to start a sentence?

Just mildly bemused this morning, procrastinating, and thought this might be meaningless enough to post in the drivel form as comma placement always has lively discussion.

(for those who are curious, I use a variation on the Oxford Canadian style guide - with a emphasis on the UK side)
 
pollinator
Posts: 263
Location: Central Virginia, Zone 7.
81
trees chicken food preservation bee solar composting
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Is that the bloody serial comma?  

I would not use the additional comma in your example.  

Somewhere, you'll probably be able to find a rule that states indeed, a comma is proper there.

With that said, similar to a proper place setting at the dinner table, the salad fork goes RIGHT THERE, the teacup & saucer goes RIGHT THERE, etc., it's a guideline.  A recommendation.  
 
steward & bricolagier
Posts: 15572
Location: SW Missouri
11342
2
goat cat fungi books chicken earthworks food preservation cooking building homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thank you Bob, at the beginning, is correct.
Grammar check thinks you are using it at the end to sign it, so that use would be wrong.
One of the limitations of grammar check, it ignores too much context.  
 
gardener
Posts: 3366
Location: Cascades of Oregon
866
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Mrs. Washenfelder would say, always a comma after thank you.
 
pollinator
Posts: 2339
Location: Denmark 57N
600
fungi foraging trees cooking food preservation
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I would also start "Thank you Bob, ..." I agree the spellcheck thinks you are ending "Thank you, Bob" where Bob is your name. It may not be right but I was taught to read the sentence, if you pause then there should be a comma if you don't pause there shouldn't be one.
 
steward and tree herder
Posts: 11249
Location: Isle of Skye, Scotland. Nearly 70 inches rain a year
5454
5
transportation dog forest garden foraging trees books food preservation woodworking wood heat rocket stoves ungarbage
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm inclined to think that, although I would do as you R and just put

Thank you Bob,


at the start of a message that this is technically incorrect.

I found a website grammarhow that sort of explains the rule, and it is to do with whether you can remove part of the sentence. 'Thank you' is shortened from 'I thank you' which is a complete sentence.
So we could say

I thank Paul for creating Permies Forum



thank you for creating Permies forum


or

Thank you, Paul, for creating Permies forum



So

Thank you, Paul,




clear as mud right?!
 
pollinator
Posts: 1455
Location: BC Interior, Zone 6-7
517
forest garden tiny house books
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
What I learned is that when addressing someone directly, their name/title is always separated from the rest of the sentence with a comma or commas. The classic example of why it's important to do this is

Let's eat Grandma.
Vs
Let's eat, Grandma.

The salutation in a letter is an exception. The comma separating the person being addressed is excluded, but the salutation is on its own line. So your example could read

Thank you Bob,
That is just what I needed to know.
Or
Thank you, Bob, that is just what I needed to know.

The second version would be incorrect because it's a run-on sentence, though. You'd need to connect the two somehow, like, "Thank you, Bob, because that's just what I needed." That sounds pretty awkward, though. Maybe change the structure entirely to, "Thank you, Bob, for giving me the information I needed."  I'd just go with the salutation on its own line.
 
gardener
Posts: 1877
Location: Japan, zone 9a/b, annual rainfall 2550mm, avg temp 1.5-32 C
965
2
kids home care trees cooking bike woodworking ungarbage
  • Likes 11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Just posting to say, as a descriptive linguist, I see commas, everywhere, whenever, anyone, feels, like, u,s,i,n,g, them ,,, and I think it's hilarious and I enjoy it,
 
master gardener
Posts: 5057
Location: Carlton County, Minnesota, USA: 3b; Dfb; sandy loam; in the woods
2743
7
forest garden trees books chicken food preservation cooking fiber arts seed woodworking homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

r ranson wrote:
But what if I want to start the email by thanking someone else?  For example:

Thank you Bob, that is just what I needed to know.
...
And yet, every spelling and grammar checker HATES me for saying "thank you bob,"  Multiple error messages and often autocorrections to put the comma between thank you and the name.

Is it just the Canadian in me that feels starting a sentence with "thank you person, and more words on the subject" is a normal way to start a sentence?


"Thank you Bob" and "that is just what I needed to know" are both independent clauses. That means they stand alone as sentences and when you connect them with a comma, the error is called a comma splice.

So the most obvious "fix" is this:
Thank you Bob. That is just what I needed to know.

But also, see what your grammar-checker thinks of these:

Thank you Bob -- that is just what I needed to know.
or
Thank you Bob; that is just what I needed to know.

(I'm personally unclear on how "proper" those are but I use those constructs to avoid comma splicing.)

I'd also be curious what your grammar tool thinks of that opening if you line-break after that comma and start a paragraph with the second clause.

(All the usual caveats are in place -- this is your (our) language and you can use it how you like. It's only "wrong" in my book when it slows down communication for no good reason -- and poesy is a good reason. But from the context it seems like you're exploring how to comport with the group-expectations of how the language is used.)
 
steward
Posts: 17815
Location: USDA Zone 8a
4544
dog hunting food preservation cooking bee greening the desert
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Google said, To add a "thank you" salutation, integrate phrases like "With sincere gratitude," "Many thanks," or "I appreciate it" before your closing, choosing a level of formality appropriate for the recipient. You can use a warmer, more informal tone for friends, or a more formal one like "With deep respect" for business contacts



I usually just sign my name in closing so I like to keep it simple so I would just say Thanks, then sign my name below that.
 
r ranson
steward & author
Posts: 42972
Location: Left Coast Canada
16016
9
art trees books chicken cooking fiber arts
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

So the most obvious "fix" is this:
Thank you Bob. That is just what I needed to know.



The spellcheckers do not accept that solution (although personally, I agree it's the obvious one)

Same error messages and autocorrect woes due to the lack of comma after "thank you".

 
master steward
Posts: 7747
Location: southern Illinois, USA
2865
goat cat dog chicken composting toilet food preservation pig solar wood heat homestead composting
  • Likes 7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have an MS in English with a concentration in linguistics.   My position is that the purpose of language is to communicate. For every day purposes, it don’t matter…as long as you are communicating what you intended to communicate.  Now if you need to write a formal letter, that can be a little different.
 
master steward
Posts: 14011
Location: Pacific Wet Coast
8310
duck books chicken cooking food preservation ungarbage
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jan White wrote:What I learned is that when addressing someone directly, their name/title is always separated from the rest of the sentence with a comma or commas. The classic example of why it's important to do this is

Let's eat Grandma.
Vs
Let's eat, Grandma.


This example particularly shows the issue. Eating Grandma is cannibalism and not approved of where I live. The comma clarifies what the intent is - like the old joke that "Pandas eat, shoots, and leaves." vs "Pandas eat shoots and leaves." where the word "shoots" switches from a noun to a verb based on the comma.

Thank you Bob. That is just what I needed to know.


To me, this would only be fully corrected if you added the comma after thank you:
Thank you, Bob. That is just what I needed to know.

I don't always have names for these things, but Christopher identified it as a "comma splice" - using a comma to mash what should be two sentences into one.

Ultimately, though, English defies rigid rules because there are just too many versions of it out there!

 
Anne Miller
steward
Posts: 17815
Location: USDA Zone 8a
4544
dog hunting food preservation cooking bee greening the desert
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
My mother in law was a legal secretary for many years.

Her advise was not to worry about commas or any other punctuation except the period at the end, if needed.
 
gardener
Posts: 1169
Location: Zone 5
560
ancestral skills forest garden foraging composting toilet fiber arts bike medical herbs seed writing ungarbage
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
For maximum clarity thou shouldst say “Thank thee, O Bob”, ensuring the proper use of the singular “thee”, so that thou referest not to multiplicitous personae. The comma in this case is very natural. Whenever addressing someone thou shalt use the word “O” before their name; however, this would be unnecessary and confusing when positioned before thine own name.

In all seriousness I am with you on “Thank you Bob”. I feel like beginning with “Thank you, Bob” feels slightly more stilted and maybe a little robotic sounding. It doesn’t follow the natural pattern of speech, at least as I have heard it. The latter makes me think of a schoolteacher standing before the class, enunciating the comma.

If someone said/wrote to me, “Thank you M” then I would probably take it better than “Thank you, M”. The latter sounds almost a very little bit like someone is talking down to me. A question of register rather than correctness. It might be different for other people, though.

I like “Let’s eat Grandma” as a yardstick, too. Can it be misinterpreted so egregiously as that? If not you’re probably fine.  
 
Morning came much too soon and it brought along a friend named Margarita Hangover, and a tiny ad.
The new purple deck of permaculture playing cards
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/paulwheaton/garden-cards
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic