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Olof Jönnerstig
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kyle saunders wrote:this infographic is especially inspiring! i mean i feel like a real ecoguy most of the time but it is humbling to remember that i fit somewhere between 2-4. i'm not even halfway to where i'd like to be! it's kinda nice to know the road is much much longer, as the road up to this point has been really an amazing ride.

i think i actually went down a point this year, as we lost all our seedlings to chance and i abandoned the garden for a season. it's amazing to know how much i relied on that garden. (not just for food, i am so out of shape this year!)

but a simple request from this olaf ! that level 10 graphic, can you make that separate from the rest of the image, and without the info? i would love this graphic on a tshirt/poster, just sepp holzer in front of his downhill paradise sitting on a hoooogel. the whole infographic is awesome on the computer, but for my own personal motivation i just need to remember to let sepp guide it. annd i just noticed the lemon tree. so nice

cool. thanks for starting my monday with some inspirations!



Hey Kyle !

Sorry for some reason I missed your request, but that can certainly be arranged... will let you know when i got it sorted  
 
Olof Jönnerstig
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Here you go, a 100% organic ethical T-shirt with sepp holzer level 10 !










 
Julia Winter
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Where to get the t-shirt?  Actually, you could get a tote bag as well. . .

https://theecoquestshio.teemill.co.uk/category/permaculture-heroes-583/

(I don't know what shipping costs, I just wanted to make it easy for people to check out the merch.)
 
Olof Jönnerstig
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Julia Winter wrote:Where to get the t-shirt?  Actually, you could get a tote bag as well. . .

https://theecoquestshio.teemill.co.uk/category/permaculture-heroes-583/

(I don't know what shipping costs, I just wanted to make it easy for people to check out the merch.)


thanks
 
paul wheaton
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I added some image fragments so it is easier to tinker with .... the giant image seems to cause problems for some.

















 
Devaka Cooray
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Would LED be a good alternative to fluorescent bulbs for the people at level 3 ?
 
Kate Muller
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Devaka Cooray wrote:Would LED be a good alternative to fluorescent bulbs for the people at level 3 ?


led lights are something I can't talk my husband out of.  It is not a battle worth fighting.  I do still have a bin in the basement of incandescent bulbs just in case he changes his mind. 

I Like the idea of the Wheaton scale but I am wondering how many of us fall in multiple levels? I an solidly in level 2, 3, 4 and 5 since I have taken a PDC.  My husband and I are slowly moving toward higher levels but it will be years before I meet all the requirements for level 3. 

My question to the people who are living at a level 3 or higher how long has it take you to get to the level you are at?  What are the things that are keeping you in a lower level? 

 
Tyler Ludens
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I won't be able to move past level 4 because I won't ever take a PDC or teach. 
 
r ranson
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Tyler Ludens wrote:I won't be able to move past level 4 because I won't ever take a PDC or teach. 


You participate here and to me, your contributions are great!  I think taking the time to share your experiences and help others on a forum like this bump you up a level.  At least that's my interpretation of how the scale works.

But alas, me too.  I'll never be able to afford a PDC so I'm also stuck at level 4.
 
paul wheaton
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Devaka,

Because you have soooooo many apples, I took the time to answer your question in a new thread about LED lights.
 
paul wheaton
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Tyler and R,

Taking a PDC and teaching a PDC are examples of behavior.  Not a strict rule.

Look at sepp:  he never took a PDC or taught a PDC.


 
paul wheaton
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today I was searching for some residual income stream stuff and came across a huge thread talking about the wheaton eco scale.  In that thread, they talked about their previous threads of discussion about the wheaton eco scale. 

In the threads, they seem to refer to "a wheaton scale" - which I think they mean is a general framework of "take out all the eco stuff and stick in other stuff".  The stuff that you keep is the population numbers (reverse logarithmic) starting with 6 billion at level zero and one person at level ten.  Plus, you keep the observations.  In the case of the ERE site, they make an ERE "wheaton scale". 

I am glad to see my name used to reference this.  Very flattering. 


So here is a fairly recent discussion where they are pressing ERE values into the scale:

http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8103


here is a similar discussion from three years ago:

http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/viewtopic.php?t=3509


here is one called "Levels of Excellence (more Wheaton scales)"

http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/viewtopic.php?t=4812


I googled the site for "wheaton scale" and came up with 269 results.  Wow!
 
Dana Martin
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Nicole Alderman wrote:

Another thing that that should be mentioned is how it is living with a spouse that is a few levels behind you. They want all the lawn mowed with a gas mower. You have to restrain them from dousing bindweed with roundup. They put everything in plastic trashbags ("oh look, meat scraps we can't eat, guess I'll put them in the trash." But, when you put something that decomposes into a trashbag that doesn't decompose, it can't make it back to the earth). They don't care about driving to and from town everyday to pick up a few more things. They pull weeds that aren't harmful and fill an environmental nitch (fireweed, wall lettuce). They want to spray bleach and antkiller all around the house to keep ants and weeds away...even though we have ducks foraging there...

It just shows how those upper Wheaton Eco Scale people really are amazing to have attained those higher levels!


How can we work with these spouses? My spouse grew up around a manicured lawn. They literally trimmed the grass around the outer buildings and house with hand shears!!  She just can't get passed the idea of not having a big expanse for a lawn. I have asked her to come to a PDC and that went over like a fart in church. Can anyone give me any ideas?
 
Tyler Ludens
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Dana Martin wrote:She just can't get passed the idea of not having a big expanse for a lawn.


Does she want to maintain the lawn herself, or does she ask you to do it?  If she does it herself, then try to negotiate on spaces for your plantings, and a space for her lawn.  If she expects you to maintain the lawn, then I think you have some grounds for drawing a line - a line around a smallish lawn.  A very well maintained little lawn can be a beautiful thing in a yard, I often wish we had one.  I like little circular lawns - they are easy to mow and irrigate.

My husband has virtually no interest in any kind of yard maintenance or gardening.  Every few months he gets tired of wading through the grass and gets out the line trimmer.  I don't expect him to ever change and suddenly decide to want to help with my permaculture projects to any significant degree.
 
Dana Martin
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Tyler Ludens wrote:
Dana Martin wrote:She just can't get passed the idea of not having a big expanse for a lawn.


Does she want to maintain the lawn herself, or does she ask you to do it?  If she does it herself, then try to negotiate on spaces for your plantings, and a space for her lawn.  If she expects you to maintain the lawn, then I think you have some grounds for drawing a line - a line around a smallish lawn.  A very well maintained little lawn can be a beautiful thing in a yard, I often wish we had one.  I like little circular lawns - they are easy to mow and irrigate.

She has only mowed twice since we started our homestead around 8 years ago. So maybe we can agree on some part of zone 1 being lawn?.?
 
Amy Christensen
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paul wheaton wrote:
permutations wrote:
What's PDC (Professional Developers Conference, Pacific Disaster Center, Public Disclosure Commission, Primary Domain Controller, Pioneer Drilling Company...)?



permaculture design course.  Typically 14 very long days of intensive study in permaculture.



Is there a PDC that you recommend around this area? Are you hosting one perhaps? Or is someone looking for a place to host one? I'd gladly host one at my place!
 
paul wheaton
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Amy Christensen wrote:
paul wheaton wrote:
permutations wrote:
What's PDC (Professional Developers Conference, Pacific Disaster Center, Public Disclosure Commission, Primary Domain Controller, Pioneer Drilling Company...)?



Permaculture Design Course.  Typically 14 very long days of intensive study in permaculture.



Is there a PDC that you recommend around this area? Are you hosting one perhaps? Or is someone looking for a place to host one? I'd gladly host one at my place!


We will probably host one this upcoming summer.
 
Deb Rebel
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Dana Martin wrote:
Nicole Alderman wrote:

Another thing that that should be mentioned is how it is living with a spouse that is a few levels behind you. They want all the lawn mowed with a gas mower. You have to restrain them from dousing bindweed with roundup. They put everything in plastic trashbags ("oh look, meat scraps we can't eat, guess I'll put them in the trash." But, when you put something that decomposes into a trashbag that doesn't decompose, it can't make it back to the earth). They don't care about driving to and from town everyday to pick up a few more things. They pull weeds that aren't harmful and fill an environmental nitch (fireweed, wall lettuce). They want to spray bleach and antkiller all around the house to keep ants and weeds away...even though we have ducks foraging there...

It just shows how those upper Wheaton Eco Scale people really are amazing to have attained those higher levels!


How can we work with these spouses? My spouse grew up around a manicured lawn. They literally trimmed the grass around the outer buildings and house with hand shears!!  She just can't get passed the idea of not having a big expanse for a lawn. I have asked her to come to a PDC and that went over like a fart in church. Can anyone give me any ideas?


We made the rule. He can mow anything he wants but the garden area and front yard are mine. I put little fences around the trees and a few other things and that thus leaves me in charge of those areas as he refuses to move everything and put it back. I haven't ever needed to bale the front lawn but it's gotten a bit long at times....  Around the garden, you better leave my lambs quarters and dandelions ALONE those are my salad greens. I have custody of all the nasty house and yard and garden chemicals too.

Try pitching xeriscaping to her instead of a lawn. That sometimes works. You just sneak a food forest into the plan.
 
Jason Manning
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It seems that all 7 billion people live in the US..?

Many, many more people than indicated live a simple life based around foraging and polyculture - of course nearly all of these millions of people live outside the US and Europe.
 
paul wheaton
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I wonder ...

When people contemplate living in the country and doing permaculture ....   and think about how to get their permaculture apples into safeway ....     maybe that is .... level 2?

And then they eventually move along the eco scale to level 4 and their goal is more like gert.


Therefore ....   there are millions of gerts (or gert wannabees).   And, for every gert, there are 100 permies focused on making money through conventional systems.


I'm not sure how true this is, but I do think there is a lot of truth to it.   And as much as it helps level 1 or 2 people to have examples of people making a lot of money with permaculture, I think that eventually they will grow past that and into level 4 and need examples of gerts.

I think evan and kai are getting close to gert-i-tude.  The little bit of coin that comes from their patreon account and people giving them permies pie for posting pictures seems to be all the fuel they need.



 
Chris Barrows
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Dana Martin wrote:
Nicole Alderman wrote:

How can we work with these spouses? My spouse grew up around a manicured lawn. They literally trimmed the grass around the outer buildings and house with hand shears!!  She just can't get passed the idea of not having a big expanse for a lawn. I have asked her to come to a PDC and that went over like a fart in church. Can anyone give me any ideas?


Mow your lawn with bunnies!

Any woman who doesn't like bunnies needs therapy

Move it around the yard 2 or 3 times a day. They'll trim it all up and fertilize at the same time.

My pen is 6×8, so figure they mow 1000+ square feet per week.
20160507_093341.jpg
[Thumbnail for 20160507_093341.jpg]
 
Stacy Witscher
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I got rid of the lawn when I got rid of the spouse. Best things I've ever done. But I live in CA, lawns are not appropriate for our climate.

The only value I see in them, are as a place for children to play, but I live really close to an elementary school and a park or completely unnecessary.

I will never fit squarely into any level as I generally don't take courses. I'm something of an autodidact. 
 
Dana Martin
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We did have an exhibit of xeriscaping in Fargo. But they decided to destroy that and put an addition to the water plant instead.... But i do like the idea of Xeriscaping though.
Deb Rebel wrote:
Dana Martin wrote:
Nicole Alderman wrote:

Another thing that that should be mentioned is how it is living with a spouse that is a few levels behind you. They want all the lawn mowed with a gas mower. You have to restrain them from dousing bindweed with roundup. They put everything in plastic trashbags ("oh look, meat scraps we can't eat, guess I'll put them in the trash." But, when you put something that decomposes into a trashbag that doesn't decompose, it can't make it back to the earth). They don't care about driving to and from town everyday to pick up a few more things. They pull weeds that aren't harmful and fill an environmental nitch (fireweed, wall lettuce). They want to spray bleach and antkiller all around the house to keep ants and weeds away...even though we have ducks foraging there...

It just shows how those upper Wheaton Eco Scale people really are amazing to have attained those higher levels!


How can we work with these spouses? My spouse grew up around a manicured lawn. They literally trimmed the grass around the outer buildings and house with hand shears!!  She just can't get passed the idea of not having a big expanse for a lawn. I have asked her to come to a PDC and that went over like a fart in church. Can anyone give me any ideas?


We made the rule. He can mow anything he wants but the garden area and front yard are mine. I put little fences around the trees and a few other things and that thus leaves me in charge of those areas as he refuses to move everything and put it back. I haven't ever needed to bale the front lawn but it's gotten a bit long at times....  Around the garden, you better leave my lambs quarters and dandelions ALONE those are my salad greens. I have custody of all the nasty house and yard and garden chemicals too.

Try pitching xeriscaping to her instead of a lawn. That sometimes works. You just sneak a food forest into the plan.



 
paul wheaton
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A variation of observation 1:  99% of people know that there is a scale, of sorts, like this and they are certain that the scale ends at 2 levels ahead of them.  It is a rare person that can see more than 2 levels ahead.
 
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