Autism: A Step in Human Evolution...?

Any thoughts on Autism being a step in human evolution? People have steadily became more and more intelligent as time goes on. The need for strength and braun has been replaced by the need for smarter faster processing brains... I have never met more intelligent people than those with autism....
   Just another perspective and twist on what many people feel is a hindrance or disability... I have a different view of this "condition"....

I think it will always be a step that is never fully taken. Because it comes with a cost.

The most intelligent people I know are autistic too. But most of us are also hypersensitive to various things, not brilliant socially, many are single, many have no children, many are prone to overload and burnout leaving us incapable of doing very much for long periods of time. So even those of us who look fairly 'normal' aren't so likely to add to the next generation, which means that evolutionarily speaking we aren't going to be that significant, even though the contributions we make to the way the world runs might be highly significant.

Nature is always experimenting.  I have no doubt autism is a step ….foreword, backward, or possibly sideways.   Yes, I am on the spectrum …as are many people on site…..who else seeks the most remote property available?

My own experience includes my son being diagnosed with Asperger's(a term now viewed with disfavor).
I now am pretty certain what he experiences is better described as Pathalogical Demand Avoidence.
Knowing him and other kids on the spectrum has alowed me to recognizing how many of my very smart friends are probably on the spectrum.
To a one, they are child free,
but that doesn't mean they don't contribute to the survival of next generation.
They contribute in both material and philosophical ways.
They are aunts and uncles to my kids.
Like a grand mother orca or an older sibling in a pack of wolves, humans can propagate their genes indirectly.
We are also more than hardware.
When my kids go into the world they are carrying software that was formed around the gaming table, playing with those Aunts and Uncles.
That software has already influenced others.

Fellow fella who is part of the spectrum.

I believe personally that we have a great diversity of persons and how those person's learn to interact with their world varies greatly. We however tend to teach in one specific way and anyone who doesn't learn in that way are 'different'.

Many people in my life find me intelligent, tell me I am intelligent, and to a degree... I agree! I however have only so much social battery before I start needing to become a recluse and just regenerate my batteries before the next thing occurs. I am pretty good at learning to gauge this and minimizing my own feelings that start turning into grumpiness.

I might want to have kids in the future, but I hope I can provide them with the specific resources they would need in the event they inherit some amount of the family 'tism. My brother (also diagnosed on the spectrum) has two young girls who I love to spoil and so far they are growing up to be amazing young ladies. If they end of with similar challenges as their dad or myself, I think we are better suited now to get them the assistance they need compared to when we were kids.

Here's a short list of studies on autism. It is mostly linked to environmental toxicity especially pesticides, but also to vitamin deficiency. I feel like I am autistic, but never diagnosed and I can only see the negatives. For this to be an evolutionary step means that it somehow must increase the reproductive success of the individuals with the trait. Since, autistic people are generally anti-social and struggle to form relationships, they have far less children. They are also more likely to be non-binary leading to even less children. So, it appears to be a maladaptive response to genetic damage.

https://studyfinds.org/plastic-additive-autism-adhd/
https://studyfinds.org/maternal-vitamin-d-deficiency-autism-boys/
https://studyfinds.org/insecticide-increase-risk-autism/
https://studyfinds.org/tap-water-lithium-autism-risk/
https://studyfinds.org/gut-microbiome-autism/
https://studyfinds.org/air-pollution-may-increase-autism-risk-78-percent-children/
https://studyfinds.org/pesticide-exposure-ddt-pregnancy-linked-autism-children/

I think the idea of evolution having "steps" is inherently flawed. We may perceive steps, but really the genes behind it are mutating for a huge variety of different things at the same time. Some combinations of those come with increased fitness to the environment, while others come with costs. It is highly likely that the genes controlling autism have existed the human genepool for most of human history. They get expressed more or less frequently, depending on variations in the environment. If those genes for autistic tendencies help you (or your tribe!) survive then they are likely to be passed on.

It is relatively easy to see why some individuals with autistic tendencies might be beneficial in a society - someone needs to be paranoid, vigilant, obsessive to detail! But having those same traits expressed too strongly makes that individual a liability rather than an asset, and too many individuals like that are likely to be problematic for the survival of the tribe as a whole.

My own son has ASD traits. In some circumstances they act in his favour, in others they are a hinderance. He finds some of normal day to day life very hard.

I would say no because autism tends to result in fewer children so natural selection is acting against autism. Families with an autistic child tend to have fewer children [1]. I didn't to find stats on the birthrates among autistic individuals, but considering the social issues associated with autism I would expect those with autism to have a significantly lower birthrate than the general population.

I'm on the spectrum too. And I realized long ago my path was not to live a "normal" life, but do the things I do well, and let the normal people do the normal things.
I have a thread here   Be a Bright Spark!
Where I talk of a dream I had many years ago:

I saw the whole of humanity as a huge bonfire. As people were born they became a bright point of light, as they died that point faded out.

The mass of humanity, the good people who have a good, peaceful, normal life were the hot center of the fire, they are who made the fire bright and glowing.
But out on the edges were the flames that made beautiful patterns, and the sparks that danced, they were the beauty of the fire.  

I try to make the world a more interesting place, but I'll never be part of the solid flame that moves civilization forward in the mundane ways it has to be done to move the whole culture. But I dance on the edge of the fire, I'm a bright spark.

Someone has to move the more mundane things forward, lack of that would result in much harder lives for us all. Those on the spectrum are excellent for their sparkles that add beauty and neat ideas.

I have the gene for sickle cell.
It is prevalent among people who's ancestors came from near the equator.
It helps humans survive malaria.
If you kid gets a double dose, they are gonna suffer.
Recently I've heard there maybe a gene therapy that might fix this.

I wonder, how many on spectrum people contributed to this therapy or others?

Being able to read is considered normal.
But for most of human history, writing and reading was anything but normal.
The ability to point due north, track an animal, or identy a plant were more important by far.
The ability to memorize long passages, poems ,songs or  recipes and to teach thecsame to another would have been more useful than the ability to write down something almost no one else could read.


I grew up during a time when cursive was mandatory.
Even though I test in the 95th percentile for verbal intelligence, my grades did not reflect this.

Turns out I am disgraphic, I have attention deficit disorder and my processing speed is in the 5th percentile...
Learning that my struggles had a name was a great relief.

Being called "gifted" and struggling to perform is hard on a person's self esteem.
If you are supposed to be very able, but you still fail, then your failure must be a MORAL FAILURE, right?
Facing that dilemma, a person might learn to avoid even  trying.

I had years of wrestling with this before finding out I was literally "slow".
I has already fought my way to a place of accepting myself as I was, good at what I was good at, and willing to work at other things, IF they mattered to ME.

Finding out that I had an empirically provable deficit along with my empirically proven gifts, gave me empirical evidence for the conclusion I has already come to, that I wasn't really a lazy piece of shit, no matter what the scripts in my head might say.

That is the reason I think a diagnosis  is useful.
It can't fix anything on it's own.
I still can't read my own handwriting,I still lose everything not strapped to my body, I still have more ideas than I will ever bring to fruition, I still procrastinate like crazy, I still hear that voice of self loathing,though less than before.
But I can continue forward knowing my choice of self love is backed up with the knowledge that I  am doing what I can in life, dancing backwards, in high heels.

That's right, I'm getting by with an abacus in a world of quantum computers, ad I'm doing OK

If that don't give you hope for the neurally diverse, I'm not sure what will.

Hi William,

I find it perplexing that so many people, myself included, find relief in being given a diagnosis.   I know I am the same person with the same problems after the diagnosis as I was before … but somehow it feels better

Ever heard the phrase "Give it a name" ?

I think the unnamed problem is a personal burden, while problem with a name is a shared burden.
Just having a name for it means you are not alone, someone is at least interested enough to give your problem a name, even if they don't experience that problem themselves.


I am pleased that neural diversity has been adopted as a descriptor for so much of what me and mine experience.
It expands my own empathy to more and more people, including the "neural typical".
Knowing that some of us cannot picture objects in our mind and never hear an inner voice is as important as knowing that my random outbursts of noises is called stimming, and I am not alone in doing it.

Most of the genetic studies appear to agree that there *may* be genetic components to ASD, but the large numbers of potential genetic loci appearing to be associated with ASD in these studies tends to muddy the waters.  In other words, the complexity of the models for just *how* these different genes might condition ASD currently renders a proof statement untenable.  Not to say with more research it won't be proven, it just hasn't been yet.  But also to say that evolution operates on populations as those populations adapt, over time and many generations.  Even if reproduction between diagnosed ASD individuals (as well as between those diagnosed as non-ASD and those diagnosed as ASD) is lower than between non-ASD individuals *now*.....under our current "environment" (biosphere, sociosphere, politicosphere, religiosphere, etc.).... does not preclude the possibility that in a future environment, ASD individuals and ASD traits might condition greater adaptability.  If the non-ASD "norm" (used loosely here, of course) were, in a different environment, suddenly to become vulnerable to a 'selective sweep' due to a rapid change in environment for which the "norm" was not well-adapted....and simultaneously, the ASD traits *were* adaptive....then a population shift would like occur to favor ASD traits, irrespective of whether they are genetically-determined or passed on via behavior learning.  So ASD could be part of an evolutionary shift or movement, but more time will be needed to confirm.  Interesting responses here!....

John F Dean wrote:Hi William,

I find it perplexing that so many people, myself included, find relief in being given a diagnosis.   I know I am the same person with the same problems after the diagnosis as I was before … but somehow it feels better

Having a diagnosis has been a massive help for my son. When his anxiety is playing havoc, for example, I can remind him that there isn't actually anything real going on - it's his ASD going haywire. It helps him to rationalise what he is feeling, when his fight-or-flight reactions are going haywire. And he is more prone to spiking his anxiety when he is tired, which then interferes with him settling to sleep.

It's not a fix. He still has those huge feelings. But he is now more able to step aside from them, when they are being unproductive.

Wow, great question!  

I agree with most of the people who have already answered: no, it's pretty much an evolutionary dead end.  And I'm so pleased to see that so many of us are on the spectrum, as people like to say.  I am, too.  And I recognize several names on here who are people who have helped me in the past, people I have taken a liking to.  Interesting, no?  Like calls to like, I guess.

I was self diagnosed with Asperger's, and got an official diagnosis about 15 years ago.  And yeah, it did make me feel better about myself.  That, and finding out that i have Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome.  Oddly enough, the 2 seem to go together quite often.  

I'm super smart, 134 IQ, which is close to genius.   I did well in school, because I liked taking tests and was good at it.  And yet, I never did well in life.  I live at poverty level on disability due to severe panic attacks and depression, which took me out of the game in my mid 30's.  Even before that, I was never able to work a full time, "real" job.  Never been able to support myself.  I'll be 64 in April.

Even tho I'm so "smart", my memory is shit, and always has been.  I'm never gonna be able to tell if I'm senile because I already can't remember anything.  I guess I'll know when I start putting my shoes in the fridge.  It's why I always had trouble spelling.  Memorization was always very difficult for me.  The reason I had straight A's was because I actually understood what I was learning, rather than just using rote memory.   I'm like a computer with super processing and speed, and 50 KB of memory.

I can remember feeling different at a very early age, in first grade.  I could tell the other kids just didn't see or feel things like I did.  I knew I was smarter.  I went to Catholic school in the early 60's, and it was very rigid.  I had problems with that.  I distinctly remember praying every night to god to make me normal and stupid like everyone else.  I suffered from terrible anxiety, to the point where I couldn't eat breakfast until I was in high school.  I just wanted to be normal.

I found out in my 40's that I was also faceblind, which apparently goes along with autism a lot.  It was a real ah-ha! moment.  I finally understood a major cause of why I was so anxious at school.  I couldn't tell people apart!  And Catholic school with the nuns all wearing veils and habits?  It was a nightmare.  I was terrified when my mother would leave me off at school.  I never went on school trips until 4th or 5th grade, because I was terrified of getting lost.  By "lost", I mean not being able to recognize my teacher or chaperone.  Growing up smoothed thing out a bit, but it's still tough.  Of all my handicaps, I would say the faceblindness is probably the worst.  Imagine living in  world of strangers, all the time.  The sad thing is, I never knew this was abnormal, so I blamed myself.  I thought I wasn't trying hard enough to memorize faces.  I didn't know that normal people don't HAVE to memorize faces.  It just come naturally.

Same with the EDS and Asperger's.  I was always down on myself for being a jerk, for being lazy.  I was always getting reprimanded for it, for not working hard enough.   Now I know I was working twice as hard as everyone else just to survive, to just stay upright.  EDS causes laxness in ligaments and tendons.  Connective tissue is weak.   In normal people, exercise is partially passive.  You move a muscle by your will, and it snaps back with the help of tendons.  Mine are like stretched out rubber bands, so my muscles have to work much harder, essentially doing all the work.  No wonder I was always exhausted.  Add to that all the psychological stuff, and, well...

So no, I don't think it's a step in evolution.  It's too exhausting.  And severe autism would have been a death sentence in prior times.  I have a theory that autism is nothing new.  I think that all those legends of babies being taken by the fairies was really autism rearing it's ugly head at a certain age.  And being "taken by the fairies" was a pretty good justification for leaving your substitute, weird fairy child out in the woods to be exposed.

My mother was 40 when I was born, which was quite old back in 1960 to have a baby.  She was also sick at the time with gallbladder, and didn't know it.  She said she threw up through the whole pregnancy, which would tie in with what someone else here said about it being caused by nutritional deficiency in the mother.  

It's not something I would wish on anyone.  At least, anyone I like.  And oh yeah, no kids here.  I'm so glad I had the inner knowledge to know raising kids was not something I was capable of.

I will also agree with the not an evolutionary step because it doesn't produce offspring.  I am hard core aspie.  IQ is 142 so in the top 1% but EQ is a bull in a china shop.  Occasionally I am amazing and there spinning plates all over.  But most of the time it is followed by a trail of broken glass.   Have only ever done 2 second dates and beyond.  I am 58 and very unlikely to ever manage marriage.

As for giving it a name, the name doesn't really matter.  But knowing all the things that totally drove my mother nuts had a reason brought a form of peace.  Understanding where the problems like sensory overload reactions comes from brings better tools to deal with it.

Timothy Norton wrote:Fellow fella who is part of the spectrum.

We keep running into each other---we have to stop meeting like this!  People are beginning to talk...

We however tend to teach in one specific way and anyone who doesn't learn in that way are 'different'.

Yes, the whole world has been set up this way since the industrial revolution.  They line us up in rows in school, so we'll be used to cubicles at work.  Be obedient.  I think that, in olden times,  we might have been better off if  our autistic problems were not in the severe range.   Before the industrial revolution, people were farmers or craftsmen, often working at home or out of small shops.  A lot of times, they lived in or above their shops.  I think, in a lot of ways, they had more autonomy.  At least, once you got past your apprenticeship.  

I however have only so much social battery before I start needing to become a recluse and just regenerate my batteries before the next thing occurs. I am pretty good at learning to gauge this and minimizing my own feelings that start turning into grumpiness.

Yes!  Same here!  There are times when I actually like to interact with friends, (usually after being forced into it, ha ha) but only in limited doses.  I need a lot of regen time afterwards. I need quiet and calm surroundings.  I find my happiest moments are usually alone, with my birds, dogs, and garden.   The best job I ever had was when I was working at the aquarium, taking care of the seals, dolphins and penguins.  I was basically on my own, the only schedule being feeding times.  And I love email and message boards like this, because I can think out my answers and take time to think about what others say.  And I can go over and over an answer someone gives me, which is so helpful for someone with such a poor memory.  

Huh, I guess I should post here.

In the 1960s, my father couldn't read at 10. He was told he was retarded and wouldn't pass grade 6. He listened his way through college degrees in biology and chemistry, puzzling through the textbooks at about 80 words per minute, but remembering basically everything his professors said. Dad was also a master carpenter, crack shot, expert swimmer with and without SCUBA, and champion offroad rally driver. He built and maintained two or three high-performance racing cars and a small fleet of taxis while holding down the beginnings of a 35-year career as a high school science teacher. Mean euchre player. His mother was also something of a left-handed tomboy bowling/baseball prodigy, but I barely knew her.

My sister was diagnosed in the 80's as dyslexic (I think she was 12). Never did well in school although she was amazing at sports. Also taught for over 30 years in the high school system. In her 50s she probably reads faster than most people now. Likely 600-800 wpm. Very forceful personality, she advocates tirelessly for disabled children and regularly takes on the local education board.

My older brother rankled when I suggested that he and I fit about sixty percent of the symptoms list that the doctors showed us for our sister. He has an eidetic memory and was reading 1200wpm when he was 10. Computer programmer; one of the first wave of very geekity geek-geeks. Speaks six or eight languages, not including computer code. I would say very low EQ, although he's aged well. Think Mycroft Holmes.

I am a weird one, everyone says. I probably read a little faster than my brother now, but I studied speed reading. Also acting: my memory is not quite as perfect as his but I have my methods. I did well in school, but university bored me, and I ended up generalizing. "I know a little about a lot and a lot about a little." I pick up new things very quickly and I tend to master the things that I stick with.

All three of us have persistent health problems with a variety of symptoms. I recommend a parasite cleanse for anyone who suspects themselves of being "on the spectrum"; if there are advantages, there are also sensitivities, and there is good evidence that parasites are one of them. (I have had excellent results with "para purge" from real raw food dot com.)

Acting, dance and martial arts helped me control many of my psychological symptoms, including (sure) a lack of empathy, name and face "blindness", compulsive behavior, clumsiness, panic response, etc.

Living a "permies" lifestyle also helps. Living in community I can believe in and getting away from the city pacing, noise, emf, etc has really helped me find peace.

I am a big fan of Ron Davis' "The Gift of Dyslexia"; I believe it is still in print. He says that if you face the flaws, the glitches in cognition, and untangle/debug them, your cognition will improve and mastery becomes instinctive.

LGBT people are theoretically less likely to have offspring (maybe except the bisexual) but the numbers are steady (even growing as more people feel safe to come out these days) so why not autism. Evolution is more about trying a diversity of directions, than moving towards a goal, methinks.

Oh yeah: "Weird" does not mean undateable, no matter what Jerry Seinfeld says.

I have two girls, both my siblings have partners and children.

(They are all brilliant, one or two have something approaching a Diagnosis from the Manual, one has a life-threatening neurological disorder.)

I wonder if autistic people is a nature's way of keeping the species alive in case of high mortality epidemic/pandemic. Since autistic people tend to live alone, it seems they're less vulnerable to highly contagious virus or bacteria. Even if they're living in a group, they will be ok if they survive such an event, because they won't feel so bad to be left behind, i.e. they  won't die of "loneliness". I also wonder if there are "autistic" individuals in other animals with social behavior.

Sergio Cunha wrote:I wonder if autistic people is a nature's way of keeping the species alive in case of high mortality epidemic/pandemic. Since autistic people tend to live alone, it seems they're less vulnerable to highly contagious virus or bacteria.

To my way of thinking, there are two distinct/separable propositions here.

1] Will autistic people, by virtue of being 'loners', have a higher likelihood of surviving high mortality events such as epidemics/pandemics (and therefore of 'keeping the species alive' by re-populating in the wake of such events)?

2] Is the autism phenomenon Nature's work, or is it more like a fortuitous accident/windfall event created by something UN-natural - e.g., increasing exposure to various toxins which are themselves products of our technological civilization (which might well be a one-off event)?

Some research on slime molds suggests it is advantageous to have some 'loners' in your population:


Evolution selects for 'loners' that hang back from collective behavior—at least in slime molds

https://phys.org/news/2020-03-evolution-loners-behaviorat-slime-molds.html

Donner MacRae wrote:

Some research on slime molds suggests it is advantageous to have some 'loners' in your population:


Evolution selects for 'loners' that hang back from collective behavior—at least in slime molds

https://phys.org/news/2020-03-evolution-loners-behaviorat-slime-molds.html

Thanks for that interesting link!  Yes, I think 'programmed diversity' is more common than appreciated and works on the idea that we can't possibly know all of the scenarios that may threaten a population, therefore best to have (in humans at least and keeping with the topic) some neuro-atypical individuals in case the larger collective becomes vulnerable to some phenomenon or force.  But also, this argument can end up sounding as if neuro-atyp's are just hanging out in a non-contributing manner *now* just waiting for that chance to shine during a some cataclysmic event to hit the planet and I don't mean to imply that at all.  It is precisely because *now* has its own set of challenges.....challenges that neuro-atypical individuals have insights on that can provide huge benefits for the planet and from a perspective that the mainstream possibly can't even see, that I don't see autism/spectrum as something 'maladaptive'.

Edited to add Re: point #2......  Certainly mutations themselves, *if* they turn out to have a significant contribution in autism, are always happening, irrespective of the exposure to mutagens, etc., although certain agents can increase the mutation *rate* over baseline.  In this way, it could be argued that it's Nature's work at hand.

Jessica Henry wrote:I have never met more intelligent people than those with autism....
   

Meh, I'm not convinced. Intelligence is like a faceted gemstone. It looks different depending on your point of vue amd there is most certainly a flaw somewhere. Personally I'd trade my "genius" anytime for better social skills. It's not lack of skills, really, more like a blindness. I learned to fake it but I'd rather be dumb as a rock and socially normal than be super smart but lonely like the last man on Earth.

Being naturally gifted at a thing can remove the need to work at the basics.
Never having that struggle can make it that much harder to teach another.

My eldest coached his younger sibling on sales techniques at the farmers market.
He had very precise instructions that included nuance and reasons for each action.
For example,  he had certain distance and volume at which greeting a customer seemed to work best.
I commented on his great coaching,and he pointed out it came from having to learn from scratch, analytically,  rather than being able to rely on "just picking up on" social cues.

Being rather obtuse myself,I once dreamed of a job in the library stacks, but was forced into retail by circumstance and became noted for my patter and salesmanship.
By the time I left that job, I had stress headaches from wishing everyone would go away with a smile on my face.
Becoming a construction worker was a lesson in projecting menace and indifference to abuse, crap that came home with me to my family.
Now I work in an office, and higher ups are fighting over money and influence, with my department as pawns in the middle.
I'm still not up to speed on these shenanigans 😒  and I wish I didn't need to be.
Most of the participants also seem to dislike the games being played.
Some neurotypes enjoy/excel at social maneuvering but that in and of itself doesn't make it a worthwhile endeavor.
It does seem to be widely accepted as the norm, but...

To paraphrase: Other people can be Hell.

William Bronson wrote:
I commented on his great coaching,and he pointed out it came from having to learn from scratch, analytically,  rather than being able to rely on "just picking up on" social cues.

He's doing great. I was thrown into a retail job a couple of years ago, what a ride! I got real good at it too. Nothing like starting from scratch. Funny thing is, put me in another context and is back to square one. Well not quite, but...

It was really difficult growing up but I stopped being angry when I realized normies are messed up too. Lots and lots of unhappy people. Makes me feel better lol

I don't have children, so no evolutionary bonus for me.

Admittedly I did not read every response on here.  I absolutely have nothing against anyone on the spectrum or anyone intellectual.  I would consider myself intellectual as well.  But personally I don't believe it's intelligence or intellectuality that is a step forward or the cure to human problems.  Our intelligence can push us far past what is truly right or good for us.  To recognize when intelligence/society/progress has gone past the true benefits for humanity and earth is what we need currently.  I'm reminded of a quote from an unknown author, "We keep thinking about what we could do instead of what we should do."  It doesn't take intelligence to hear the little voice inside of us that is always directing us the right way.  It's that which will correct the direction humanity is going and the sooner we all listen to it the sooner we live in heaven.  

A few add'l observations on the subject of 'adaptation':

What's good for the species in the long run ain't always good for the individual in the short run!

What may very well be an advantage at the species level may be maladaptive at the individual level.

That said... The very terms adaptive/maladaptive pre-suppose a larger context.
The set of external conditions which defines that context is itself subject to change. The idea that something is a disorder/ailment is at times highly dependent on normalcy bias centered around present-context.
Which perhaps is just another way of saying, an 'adaptation' is not really a complete thing in and of itself. Every adaptive trait is an adaptation to something.

For most of the history of what we call the autism phenomenon, it seems like autism (when taken as a set of behaviors) would've been viewed as more maladaptive than adaptive at the individual level. But there's that pesky 'black swan' every 500 years or so when the context suddenly changes; when half the population of Europe dies off in a plague, for example - or when groupthink dictates that running off the edge of a cliff is the optimal course of action.

[For reference, Black Swan Theory was developed by Nassim Taleb to describe "the disproportionate role of high-profile, hard-to-predict, and rare events that are beyond the realm of normal expectations in history, science, finance, and technology."]

If you happen to live at the cusp of such an inflection point...  The simple 'inability to hang' becomes adaptive.  Albeit, temporarily. =]