Dilemma: Thrift Store Waste or Environmentally Friendly New Version?

Curious to hear other folks perspective on this… I was reading the free 100th edition of the permaculture magazine this morning and saw the article about how to navigate “fashion” in an eco-conscious way. Page 35 I believe it was.

I’ve never owned very many clothes or clothes that I don’t use on a regular basis; however, for most of my life when I needed to replace something I would just buy a new version at some chain store. A couple years ago though, I switched to shopping for clothing primarily at second-hand stores. Saving money is cool, but that wasn’t my motivation - I want to reduce demand for new manufacturing and reduce waste.

The article made me think of how we signal demand in a capitalist economy though. The author talks about buying clothing from companies that are focusing on sustainable manufacturing, environmental and worker protection, etc.

Soooooo… what I’d like to hear is how other folks approach this topic. Is it better to buy used clothing manufactured the standard way? Or should one buy new clothing manufactured in an eco-friendly manner?

To me, it seems like the first option continues creating the demand signal for companies that are harming the environment and populations, even if you are the second person to do so. Yet, going with the second option requires the input of additional resources to create something that already exists (e.g., used items at a thrift store).

Thoughts anyone?

I always vote with my pocketbook/purse.

If I were rich I could buy sustainably so I vote thrift store quality brands.

I don't usually see a lot of sustainable clothing at thrift stores.

Some folks feel that secondhand shopping is a great way to reduce your environmental footprint.

I also feel that while at thrift stores folks can find some really cool and unique items.

Chard,

I think it is a tie, or close to it. Think about the permaculture principle of producing no waste. We're looking for a closed system where every output from one function is an input for another. These days I am more concerned about buying natural, sustainable fibers. Or at least reducing the amount of petroleum-based fibers and other unsustainable things in my clothing. I wouldn't stress over it too much, though. Because "tie."  Easier said than done, right? Sustainable tencel is a relatively new fiber that mimics a lot of the properties of rayon/polyester/spandex and adds those properties to natural fibers like merino wool, alpaca, cotton, etc. If you've ever owned a wool sweater that bagged out and wouldn't hold its shape anymore, you know what I'm talking about. I hike a lot, so I have a lot of performance fabrics that are wonderful at what they do, keeping me warm or cool and dry. But they're horrible for the environment. I still wear them when I hike because they exist. They're a part of my reality at this moment in time. If I get rid of them, I don't know who will get them or where they will go, or what will be done with them. As long as I own them they won't wind up in a landfill. They will be repurposed by me, or will become a new input somewhere.

I saw a documentary a couple of years ago about a group of women outside of the U.S. that seeks out used clothing and uses them to make new clothing and other things. Sort of like this:



My strategy for the future is a mix of both. I won't buy new non-sustainable clothing. My focus is on natural fibers produced sustainably. But I will also get existing items from thrift stores. And when I'm done with them, they'll be donated to a group that will repurpose them. I want them to get as many lives as possible.

j

Chard Irking wrote: Is it better to buy used clothing manufactured the standard way? Or should one buy new clothing manufactured in an eco-friendly manner?......
Thoughts anyone?

This sort of dliemma has come up before: this thread for example. I don't think it's an easy question to answer but also that there isn't only one good answer for everyone. Some people have the money to buy beautiful eithical clothing from artisan makers, others lack the money, but have time to make their own. Most of us lack the time, money or skill, so have to sometimes take the least worst option. The saying goes 'don't let perfect get in the way of good', and just do the best you can.
I do both now. When I do buy new I try and buy the most ethical clothing I can, as close to the people that actually make it (rather than through third party people taking much of the profits). Since this is more expensive I end up buying fewer clothes, but better quality this way.
Unfortunately, as has been discussed elsewhere, the quality of goods in charity shops (UK equivalent of thrift stores) these days tends to reflect the poor standard of clothing generally. Therefore I find less to interest me there than used to be the case. However, given the investment in resources that has gone into making these clothes, the longer they can be useful the better. I've been shocked to realise how old some of my clothes actually are!

Nancy,

I totally agree with you. What I've found, and it shouldn't come as much of a surprise, is that the closer you get to a "ritzy" area -- highly populated urban areas -- the better the thrift store finds. I'm lucky that my wife is a thrift store queen. If we have to go somewhere, we usually wind up in a Goodwill, Salvation Army, St. Vincent de Paul, consignment shop, or flea market. A lot of the stuff still has tags on it! Patagonia goes fast. Columbia. North Face. Lots of LL Bean. Banana Republic. Ab and Fitch. Lauren.

Our chronic rampant consumerist society makes it possible to live and dress like kings and queens from the refuse of others. That is good and bad, because I think it is possible to be a dumpster-diving consumerist. Ha ha.  

But we share that sentiment of "different strokes for different folks." My sentiment remains... don't stress out too much, just do the best you can in your situation.

j

Nancy Reading wrote:

Chard Irking wrote: Is it better to buy used clothing manufactured the standard way? Or should one buy new clothing manufactured in an eco-friendly manner?......
Thoughts anyone?

This sort of dliemma has come up before: this thread for example. I don't think it's an easy question to answer but also that there isn't only one good answer for everyone. Some people have the money to buy beautiful eithical clothing from artisan makers, others lack the money, but have time to make their own. Most of us lack the time, money or skill, so have to sometimes take the least worst option. The saying goes 'don't let perfect get in the way of good', and just do the best you can.
I do both now. When I do buy new I try and buy the most ethical clothing I can, as close to the people that actually make it (rather than through third party people taking much of the profits). Since this is more expensive I end up buying fewer clothes, but better quality this way.
Unfortunately, as has been discussed elsewhere, the quality of goods in charity shops (UK equivalent of thrift stores) these days tends to reflect the poor standard of clothing generally. Therefore I find less to interest me there than used to be the case. However, given the investment in resources that has gone into making these clothes, the longer they can be useful the better. I've been shocked to realise how old some of my clothes actually are!

My wife’s mother lived in a town that was Yuppie Central.  She shopped yard sales on the Gold Coast for my wife picking up many hundred dollar suits for $10.  I keep a mental list of our needs and wants .  When I am traveling I use second hand shops as my rest stops.  So, as Anne mentioned, price rules ….but closely attached to that is value.

I like shopping at garage sales in upscale neighborhoods because I have gotten some really great quality clothes there.

However, it has been a long time since I shopped at garage sales because we moved to the country.

My top pick is always used clothing: family hand-me-downs, thrift or consignment shop finds, garage sale bargains, etc. This is how I am able to source natural fibers that have been washed many times after they were manufactured, two things very important to me in clothing.

But then there is also this crucial factor:

Nancy Reading wrote: Unfortunately, as has been discussed elsewhere, the quality of goods in charity shops (UK equivalent of thrift stores) these days tends to reflect the poor standard of clothing generally. Therefore I find less to interest me there than used to be the case.

Due to this, in the last couple of years, my mother and I have begun making clothes: simple skirts, which are really all I wear now. We use new cotton fabric from the arts and crafts store, and I have been wearing some of these for more than four years now and they are holding up very well. I would love to learn to repurpose fabrics from other garments to make them into prettier "new" things!

Rachel Lindsay wrote:My top pick is always used clothing: family hand-me-downs, thrift or consignment shop finds, garage sale bargains, etc. This is how I am able to source natural fibers that have been washed many times after they were manufactured, two things very important to me in clothing.

That's important to me too, as buying new clothes there are weird chemicals and finishes on them that I am reactive to.

I would love to learn to repurpose fabrics from other garments to make them into prettier "new" things!

I often buy things just for the fabric to work with.

To me the question used or new comes down to "what are the parameters of the problem?" My parameters for clothes involve they must fit me right (which is tricky,) match my colors and design style, have the pockets and details I require, work for what I will wear them to do, be non-reactive to me, and be very inexpensive. So going to a mall and buying something is not going to work for any of that. Ordering something off the net will not work for that. I go to thrift stores.

I look for the fabric types, colors, and designs I like, for sizes I can modify to fit me, and for quality of fabric. And if something does not fit ALL of those parameters, it does not get bought. This is a throwaway society, there will be more options another day, I never HAVE to buy anything right now.

I also sew skirts and pants to be exactly what I want (nothing that you can find in a store, I guarantee it!!) out of fabric, there is a neat fabric store in the city I go to when I must that I hit for cheap cloth that does what I want.

As far as showing consumer demand, the things I want are so far off what anyone is making to sell that I am not the target market for ANY of the clothing companies. I don't figure into their statistics at all.   Making work pants with a secret pocket Work pants made out of ripstop outdoor furniture fabric that is pretty are not for sale anywhere. I'm NOT their target market. I'll harvest the thrift store waste stream for the pieces and parts I can play with, but that's it.

To me THAT is the most environmentally friendly thing I can do. Learn to sew, it's not complex. It will open up a whole new way to think about your clothes.

Random thoughts:

I suspect a lot of the recycling waste stream ends up in the landfill.  But it makes people feel better about buying plastic crap and then recycling (or wishcycling) it because "at least I recycled it".

I think some of the fast fashion and consumerist clothing is justified by "at least I donated it to people in need when I got bored with it".  

I wonder what percentage of thrift shop shoppers would have to boycott thrift shopping in order to make a significant impact on the secondary demand signal to the manufacturers.  I suspect it's a big number.

Hi Mike,

I doubt there is a number. One national thrift shop chain uses their stores as a front to get donated goods. The real money is made by baling those goods then shipping those goods off to be recycled.  If the recycling market falls, they end up in a land fill.

Why can't we nowadays buy a beautiful or ethical or even sturdy  _____ (insert garment name here)? Because it is not available. Why is it not available--lack of capital or ideas or resources for clothing manufacturers?

(No.)

If consumers have certain "problems" that certain merchandise will "solve," I wouldn't put it past some groups to purposefully design these "problems" into the marketplace itself. Retailers and manufacturers can certainly design their pet problems/solutions scenarios by controlling the type of goods that flow down to us through the supply chain. They know that most people, most of the time, will buy and wear what is available--whatever it may be. (Women's fashion has changed so much even in just my lifetime, and I don't believe we women were behind these changes. As I see it, what most women wear most of the time does not look good on them...and far from it, unfortunately.)

I would love to be able to see what Americans would buy and wear if they had, at every Big Box store, all the options from, say, the 1920s to now. I bet there would be a shift in favor of more dressy, stylistic wear, rather that what we see before us nowadays. I wish that could happen. I am going to start sewing skirts for the ladies in my town, to make something nice available for consumers here, at least!

Rachel Lindsay wrote:Due to this, in the last couple of years, my mother and I have begun making clothes: simple skirts, which are really all I wear now. We use new cotton fabric from the arts and crafts store, and I have been wearing some of these for more than four years now and they are holding up very well.

This! Homemade clothing seems to last better for a number of reasons:
1. better seam allowances, so seams don't blow out, or if they do, are easier to repair.
2. if the clothing fits better, it will last better, and most people who sew for themselves, make sure it fits.
3. most people who home sew are investing their time, so are less likely to sew "boom and bust" out of style in a week crap
4. because of 3, home sewers will tend to buy better quality of fabric than store-bought equivalents
5. fabric scraps are saved and can be used for mending.

I would love to learn to repurpose fabrics from other garments to make them into prettier "new" things!

There are a few books that I've read lately that cover this. It takes more time and more ingenuity than starting with a whole flat panel of fabric, but there are people out there doing it. I would watch for larger outfits with simple lines and ideally complementary ones, as you may find that you have to either combine salvaged material with a second salvaged outfit, or combine with a percentage of new fabric in order to get something that looks right. Many books are written to attract "fashion" people, or "office" people, and that's not the type of clothing I'm normally sewing.

I am going to start sewing skirts for the ladies in my town, to make something nice available for consumers here, at least!

This - and if you can make it a viable small home business, even better! If you can simply inspire more people to start sewing again, equally better! The fashion industry wins by getting people into their stores - if you don't need to go in, you don't need to make an impulse buy! Go to a seed catalogue and make an impulse buy (preferably of a perennial edible, some flowers qualify) if the shopping itch is getting too overpowering!

Jay Angler wrote:Go to a seed catalogue and make an impulse buy (preferably of a perennial edible, some flowers qualify) if the shopping itch is getting too overpowering!

This sounds a lot like Chicken Math. Permies is gonna get me in trouble! :D

Yes to all of the above. I agree with you 100%! Here's hoping I can get something good going in the next month or two!

Chard Irking wrote:Soooooo… what I’d like to hear is how other folks approach this topic. Is it better to buy used clothing manufactured the standard way? Or should one buy new clothing manufactured in an eco-friendly manner?

To me, it seems like the first option continues creating the demand signal for companies that are harming the environment and populations, even if you are the second person to do so. Yet, going with the second option requires the input of additional resources to create something that already exists (e.g., used items at a thrift store).

I don't think there is one right answer. There's just too much grey area.

1. There may be times when a person sees no choice but to buy new. This could be because what they need isn't available second hand. In that case, if one can afford it, I would choose the most eco-friendly clothing possible. I watched an interesting video on outdoor clothing comparing wool, fleece and down. It was interesting how much he felt wool and down out-competed the artificial fleece, but fleece gets all the advertising dollars, so most people have no clue how much more harmful it is for the environment and us.

2. When I am buying second hand, I look for 100% natural fabric whenever possible. Unfortunately, it's getting harder and harder to find. So much that gets donated has "artificial stretch material" that the cotton is spun around. That "2% spandex is in the whole fabric. It can't be recycled or composted.

3. What qualifies as "manufactured in an eco-friendly manner" can be extremely hard for an average consumer to confirm. How do you actually determine that every stage qualifies? How do you know how many miles the garment travelled from raw material to the local store? A second hand garment already went all those miles for the first owner, so like building with urbanite (chunks of broken up concrete), the second user is upcycling what might have gone to the land-fill.

I can't but encourage people to learn to mend, make your mends bright and cheery and make a statement so that you can wear mended clothing with pride. Our ancestors not that many generations back, mended their mends because cloth was a huge investment of resources.
The PEP program has an extensive textiles department which can help people reframe sewing from a "chore" to an evening's entertainment to nice music. (and you will see plenty of my work in many of the BB's there, so I am sewing what I reap - yah, that was baaaddddd!!!)

I suspect a lot of the recycling waste stream ends up in the landfill.  But it makes people feel better about buying plastic crap and then recycling (or wishcycling) it because "at least I recycled it".

Mike, I remember renting a suburban house that had trash pickup service. The company provided a normal trash bin as well as a bin for recycling - both were supposed to be picked up on the same day. I recall watching each week as the workers would just dump the recycling bin right in with the rest of the trash... as long as folks feel good about their recycling I suppose...

I also had a conversation with my parents this weekend about how they think it is okay to use disposable paper plates instead of dishes that you wash since paper can be recycled. Of course, they don't actually recycle it. I think the whole "recycling" mentality has unfortunately become a sort of mental greenwashing for a lot of folks nowadays. Not to mention the trees, water, chemicals, and gas that go into making those pristine white paper plates...

I doubt there is a number. One national thrift shop chain uses their stores as a front to get donated goods. The real money is made by baling those goods then shipping those goods off to be recycled.  If the recycling market falls, they end up in a land fill.

John, in my earlier years I had a side hustle where I would buy items at places like Goodwill and resell them on eBay. Most standard Goodwill stores receive way more donations than they want and they also receive a lot of crap that folks "donate" thinking that it is better than just throwing it out. Where do the standard stores send all the crap they can't use? There are Goodwill stores (I can't recall the exact name - something like "distribution center") where they truck all the unwanted/broken/gross stuff and it just goes along a conveyor belt where you can buy it for cheap by the pound. I'd frequent those locations back then... but talk about desperation. I imagine that is where it ends up getting baled for recycling or other disposal.

I think what a lot of folks don't think about when they "donate" their crap is that if it is obvious that no one is going to want it, then you just wasted your time and gas transporting it to the donation place, some other person's time sorting through it, time and gas for it to be taken to a distribution center, and then it ultimately is still most likely to end up in a landfill. You're better off just taking it straight to the landfill yourself.

Unfortunately, I don't see the above becoming any less commonplace as long as cheap, disposable goods continue to be the standard. People want to buy cheap and then not feel guilty when something breaks, becomes obsolete, etc. Donating often becomes a way to avoid that guilt I think.

Chard Irking wrote:The company provided a normal trash bin as well as a bin for recycling - both were supposed to be picked up on the same day. I recall watching each week as the workers would just dump the recycling bin right in with the rest of the trash.

Wow, that's awful. At my place, a different truck picks up the recycling. But I guess I don't know that they don't drive to the same dump...

I think what a lot of folks don't think about when they "donate" their crap is that if it is obvious that no one is going to want it, then you just wasted your time and gas transporting it to the donation place, some other person's time sorting through it, time and gas for it to be taken to a distribution center, and then it ultimately is still most likely to end up in a landfill. You're better off just taking it straight to the landfill yourself.

I wonder how much of that stuff gets "donated" instead of trashed just because people can write it off their taxes.

Christopher Weeks wrote: I wonder how much of that stuff gets "donated" instead of trashed just because people can write it off their taxes.

This would very much depend on the rules. For regular thrift shop clothing from end users, I'm not aware of any tax receipts being issued. However, when my FIL passed, Hubby had a medical bed and some other equipment that needed to go away quickly, and a charity picked it up and he got a very worthwhile receipt. I believe that equipment genuinely gets refurbished and either resold or donated. We have a local place that collects and distributes it as "rentals" for an extremely minimal fee or free if necessary. It is absolutely not a perfect system.

However, this issue of donated clothing being unsuitable for resale, in some places they do bag it and sell it for a quarter which would be great for people who are trying to upcycle old stuff into new stuff. I got Hubby a very nice second hand shirt for farm use, but it had no breast pockets. Apparently, he can't live without an "ipod" pocket! He didn't care if the fabric didn't match. He's not the one looking at it though! I am! Having scraps around for that sort of re-purposing, in a variety of colours, is awesome, as is having the basic skills to do that sort of upgrade to a shirt.

I think what a lot of folks don't think about when they "donate" their crap is that if it is obvious that no one is going to want it, then you just wasted your time and gas transporting it to the donation place, some other person's time sorting through it, time and gas for it to be taken to a distribution center, and then it ultimately is still most likely to end up in a landfill. You're better off just taking it straight to the landfill yourself.

I partly agree with this, especially when I buy something (such as a flashlight) from the thrift store, only to find after I get home it's completely useless.  I wonder, if you knew it was broken, why would you donate it?

On the other hand, I do buy some really beat-up stuff, especially old clothes, because I'm going to either wear it for gardening, so it's going to get stained/torn anyway, AND everyone knows the best shirts and jeans are when they're so worn in, they are full of holes but you don't want to throw them away...!

And I buy things to use the fabric to sew into pouches or covers for appliances, curtains, etc.

And old towels, t-shirts, flannel sheets to cut up into rags and reusable cloths and toilet cloths.  So if they are stained or worn, that's not too terribly awful.  As someone else mentioned, I know they've been washed so much, all the chemical crap put into it is gone by now.  I just wish nobody used stinky, fake-fragranced laundry detergent, because that stink hangs around for several washings.  Blech.

And people buy stuff for parts...so...maybe there is a chance something can get another life.

Unfortunately, I don't see the above becoming any less commonplace as long as cheap, disposable goods continue to be the standard. People want to buy cheap and then not feel guilty when something breaks, becomes obsolete, etc. Donating often becomes a way to avoid that guilt I think.

I totally agree with this.  People don't give much thought to what they buy and the entire lifecycle of the ingredients, elements, energy, etc. used...nor do they think about what happens after it's "thrown away."  Where is away?

When people think "recycling" plastic exists...and do not realize plastic just becomes smaller and smaller pieces of synthetic crap that then enters our air, water, and bloodstreams...they'll continue to "recycle" bags and bottles, rather than using a fabric tote to begin with (preferably one made by reusing old natural-fiber fabric from an unwanted garment, which can later be thrown into the compost, to decompose.)

Our societies are based on consumerism, to drive an unsustainable economy.  And consumerism is driven by media demand.  How many of us would want a new xyz if we didn't see one in a magazine or ad?  (assuming the one we had was working or fit just fine)

Maybe the way things are heading now, with everything collapsing, people will realize there are other ways of living, which are less polluting, wasteful, toxic, and mindless.

Many are choosing minimalism, so that will have a little bit of an impact.

Another factor is lack of skills and knowledge.  Nobody gets taught how plastics are horrible for the planet, because they want you to buy more stuff.  And not many people learn how to cook, sew, do repairs any more, either, so they have little choice but to get rid of a shirt when the button falls off, for example.

That's another reason I LOVE PERMIES--because most of us here are willing and able to learn and use new skills, to help break these destructive cycles.  Ideally, we're helping to pass them on to the next generation, too, so that knowledge is not lost...and so people are empowered to make changes for the better.

Another thought...regarding buying sustainable, I think if you have the money, great.  Help the economy.

I tend to be skeptical nowadays, though, because of too much greenwashing.  Every company out there is trying to claim their products are better for the environment, yet so much of it is blatant bullshit, marketed to prod more consumerism.

Compostable plastic utensils, anyone?  Natural detergents full of fake fragrances and chemicals?

for certain things I would much rather buy high quality previously used goods for pennies on the dollar. for example my last visit to AMVETS thrifts store for $20 I got a nice set of 5 stainless steel mixing bowls, a revere ware copper bottom tea kettle,, a new aluminum meat tenderizer hammer, a brand new 12" olive wood mixing spoon, a two fine quality stainless spatulas and a large wood handle silicone tipped pot scraper. the whole lot probably would cost $300--$400 at William sanoma. and of course all the stainless stuff was saved from going to the scrap yard and new materials produced and manufactured

In this case dollars vote so I am going to go with thrift store for most.  My budget will not stand a lot of new.  I buy a few things new so it might apply to those items.

Buy environmentally friendly.if you can afford it. I used to dream about starting a recycling business (city waste) ...then I realised, why the duck should I solve the problem of waste for dumkopfs that persist in mindless consumption? If all fast fashion gets used twice...once by the original buyer...it still signals demand

That said, i understand the affordability angle.

On principle, I'd buy sustainable natural fibres, made responsibly. They are expensive . But all that means is people will buy less