They killed snakes. then they were overwhelmed with rats!

It seemed like a good idea at the time. A worker at a Florida dog kennel noticed dozens of snakes living in the rafters and crevices, and decided the reptiles had to go. Working systematically, he killed until none were left.

Then came the plague of rats.

The rat population exploded! It took 2 years, hundreds of people-hours, and thousands of $ to get control of the rats and repair the structural damage. Thr rats ate hundreds of pounds of dog food. The economic cost of removing the rats’ natural predators was obvious.

As a gardener, if you don’t want mice, voles, gophers, and rats eating your vegetable garden, then snakes are your friend. They can get into rodent dens and holes that are too small for other predators to enter, and they will help keep rodent populations from getting out of hand.

So I was glad to see the beautiful silhouette of a grass snake disappearing into my tomato beds. They are timid, not poisonous and do their bit for a balanced system.

We have vipers as well. They are equally careful to avoid people and will do their utmost to escape you.

Their venomous tooth takes 7 days to fill up. So it is unlikely you'd get a full load even if it bit you. They use the venom for catching food, not chasing gardeners.

Indeed sometimes life has unforeseen consequences.

I've been having more snakes around here the last couple years.
A used to have loads of toads but have seen very few since the garter snakes showed up.
I kinda like toads, I think they help a lot with mosquitos.

I do think the snakes have been eating mice in the garden.
Sometimes the mice borrow under the mulch, which makes it hard for cats to get them.

In the story from the dog kennel, the removal of snakes led to an unexpected rate explosion, highlighting how important these reptiles are in controlling rodent populations. It’s a classic case of unintended consequences when we disrupt natural predator-prey relationships.For gardeners, having snakes around can be a real boon. They keep the rodent populations in check, preventing these pests from wreaking havoc on your vegetable garden. Grass snakes, like the one you spotted, are especially beneficial since they’re not aggressive toward humans and help manage smaller rodents and insects.As for vipers, while their venom can be dangerous, they typically prefer to avoid humans and use their venom primarily for hunting rather than defense. The chance of a serious bite is low if you’re careful and respectful of their space

Wondering how I can import a snake or two into our 1/4 acre suburban backyard.  Any suggestions?  We have a problem with rats and mice.  I keep trapping them, they keep coming.  Our compost pile is a perfect habitat for them.  We've stopped putting food waste in there (built a secured worm/black soldier fly habitat that takes the food waste) but the rats are already here.  They hang out in our orange tree, eating the green fruit.  They stare at me from our sweet potato vines.  They scurry out of our 'hay barn' (only holds 11 bales of hay) and poop in our goat shed.  We got no fruit from our fruit trees this year.  The trees produced, but the varmits got all the fruit before it was even ripe.  16 five year old fruit trees of different varieties.  We planted for successive harvest and the varmits just moved from one tree to the next.  Now the seedling starts in the greenhouse are being topped and the 3ft tree collard plant has been stripped to just its trunk.

We had good luck importing lizards.  Saw them on the sidewalk as we took our evening walk on the outskirts of town.  Captured a few and brought them home.  Turns out we probably saved the 14 we imported since that area is now developed.  We've seen baby lizards in the yard so we know that they are sticking around and breeding.  Would like to figure out how to import a snake or two to help keep the rodent population down.

We have snakes here and there seems to be a good balance of wildlife.  Sometimes more of one thing, but then more predators arrive and redress the balance.  Carla, I wonder what would happen if you left the rats instead of removing them?  In my experience, what needs to come will come if I let nature do its thing!  The snakes will be observing, I'm sure, to see if the rodent supply is secure before moving in permanently.  

carla murphy wrote:Wondering how I can import a snake or two into our 1/4 acre suburban backyard.  Any suggestions?  We have a problem with rats and mice.  .

check wuth your local animal supply as the might have snakes,

my solution to mice was to get a cat.  I think it has been a couple of years ago that we made her part of the family.

Clusters of stone attract snakes and lizards. Even stacks of materials for future use can become a home to them. Stuff like bricks and wood, especially if there is a little space between things.

carla murphy wrote:Wondering how I can import a snake or two into our 1/4 acre suburban backyard.

Helen Siddall-Butchers wrote:Carla, I wonder what would happen if you left the rats instead of removing them?  In my experience, what needs to come will come if I let nature do its thing!

I generally agree with this sentiment, but I live on 20 acres in the woods. It's hard in the suburbs. If there's a neighbor on the block poisoning rodents or insects, those poisoned animals will traverse property lines and then poison the predators. The more interventions like that are used, the more they're required.

Thank you Christopher, you're right.  Knowing the context is important, and, of course, the principle of observation, which will alert you to possible issues with poisons etc.

We had a rat problem for almost a year until we got a cat, now named Jasper. I had built rat bait stations out of 3” pvc pipe that nothing but rats and mice could get into. I even rotated the bait but it didn’t really deter them.
Rats are incredibly destructive and get into the house walls where the can hide and store whatever they steal from the supply room. They also like to destroy styrofoam insulation. They don’t eat it, they just turn it into a pile of little balls. And Even more annoying is that they appear to think that the insulation coats of electrical equipment wires are particularly tasty. They will eat down to the copper wire if they are not detected.

Jasper resolved the rat problem in less than a week.  Living on a remote farm there are always predators who kill chickens. We had a problem with a mink and found that rats had created a colony under our chickens coop. The rats would chew through the wood walls of the coop to steal the chicken feed and those holes provided the mink wit access to the chickens. We lost five hens in a single week.  
So since Jasper had never shown any aggressive behavior toward the chickens, we decided to put him in the chicken coop one  night as a guardian for the chickens.   The next morning, there was a dead rat under the feeder, but no loss of chickens. From then on, (after lining the floor where the wall meets it with 1/4” hardware cloth), we have been using Jasper as a guardian of the chickens. He goes in willingly every night and is let out when I come to feed and water the chickens in the morning. Since that time we’ve only lost chickens during the day( they are free ranging birds) because no predators want to mess with Jasper at night.

I'll just keep my chicken snakes, thank you. They eat the mice and vipers. Don't want to unset nature but I do want to be safe

Cats would do ok with mice... but rats, not so much. A dog would be a better hunter for rats. the 2 basset hounds here will actually pull logs
out of the firewood stacks to get at any rats. Rats are awfull and have eaten tops of seedling trees I've tried to grow. Eventually I had to set
seedlings up on a makeshift table with steel roofing panels laying on top extending out so that they could not reach around to access the
table top. I won't use poison because of  the dogs and chickens here and trapping has its issues too. Big black rat snakes are a welcome sight.

Also, raccoons have been an issue with the chickens. the dogs and a 22 rifle or the shotgun have been employed from time to time though I
would prefer not to. The coons apparently are smarter and more patient and persistant than I can always maintain... It's an ongoing conflict.

BTW, another method to be rid of rats involves a mixture of dry baking soda and cornmeal that is
non-poisonous/non-lethal/harmless to the dogs and chickens but so far has had limited success...
The rats seem to prefer the tender greens instead of the cornmeal bait.

Christopher Weeks wrote:

carla murphy wrote:Wondering how I can import a snake or two into our 1/4 acre suburban backyard.

Helen Siddall-Butchers wrote:Carla, I wonder what would happen if you left the rats instead of removing them?  In my experience, what needs to come will come if I let nature do its thing!

I generally agree with this sentiment, but I live on 20 acres in the woods. It's hard in the suburbs. If there's a neighbor on the block poisoning rodents or insects, those poisoned animals will traverse property lines and then poison the predators. The more interventions like that are used, the more they're required.

Furthermore, pet cats and dogs in suburbia will catch and kill or maim garden snakes, our cat Nandi did (despite my scolding him for bringing a few into the house...)  Toads are fair game as well.  I once found a tiny toad sitting under the leaves of one of my mom's African violet plants in the moist soil, in the dining room!  It could have only been our cat who brought the little guy inside to play with!  (He was relocated way out back by the creek in the woods where the cat rarely went.)

Since Nandi passed almost a year ago, I've already noticed lots more garden snakes.  We don't have rat problems here, but we do have mice, voles and moles.  And chipmunks and squirrels.  I can only imagine how much worse it would be if we didn't have the snakes!  We recently adopted two kitties who I can tell will be great mousers, but they are still indoors getting used to living with us so they don't run off when we let them out.

I hope you all are talking about house rats not pack rats!  I like the pack rats😊 and haven’t known them to do all these awful things.  They steal shiny things and make great middens of sticks and what ever they find.

The other ones I don’t have much experience with.

We had a mouse apocalypse in out house a couple years ago. aft 9 months and more than 50 dead mice caught we finely got it under control. I kept wanting to catch a couple rat snakes and turn them loose in house and attic but my wife just about melted down. However after dealing with the aftermath of the mice she told me she regrets saying no and would probably let me now. It was bad enough that my 9 and 12 year old that find baby rodents of all kinds uber cute are now when they see a mouse "DAD!! its a mouse!!! kill it! Kill it!" I was using sticky traps as well as snap traps and poison by the time we were done. For a bit early on I was taking the ones in sticky traps and getting them out and releasing them in the woods about 100 yards from the house. By the end I was a ruthless exterminator as mice in the house are an existential threat.

carla murphy wrote:Wondering how I can import a snake or two into our 1/4 acre suburban backyard.  Any suggestions?  

This is easy.. just about every pet store in the country sells snakes. I would stick to native non poisonous snakes. Constrictors though great for this get large and can go after cats dogs and baby size stuff later in life.

Garter snakes and rat snakes would top the list of good snakes for this. Gopher snakes, king snakes are also good mousers.

here is an article about snakes for the garden that also list these snakes.

https://learn.eartheasy.com/articles/these-3-snakes-are-your-gardens-best-friends/#:~:text=Garter%20snakes%20are%20beneficial%20because,variety%20of%20insects%20and%20rodents.

Snakes, like all living creature definitely have their place!

In central America, native farmers catch boas and put them in their grain silos.

Please don't release any non-native snakes where they don't belong, that is at best illegal and at worst a catastrophe in the making.

Charolett Knapic wrote:Clusters of stone attract snakes and lizards. Even stacks of materials for future use can become a home to them. Stuff like bricks and wood, especially if there is a little space between things.

You can earn a Badge Bit here for documenting the build of reptile habitat like that.

Helen Siddall-Butchers wrote:We have snakes here and there seems to be a good balance of wildlife.  Sometimes more of one thing, but then more predators arrive and redress the balance.  Carla, I wonder what would happen if you left the rats instead of removing them?  In my experience, what needs to come will come if I let nature do its thing!  The snakes will be observing, I'm sure, to see if the rodent supply is secure before moving in permanently.  

I'd agree with this sentiment if we had wildlands around us, but we are in a suburban development.  All green lawns, sidewalks, and blacktop.  There were no lizards here before we brought them in from the undeveloped property about 2 miles away.  Now we find them in neighbor's yards too!

Thought of getting a cat, but fear a cat would take out the lizards we've cultivated here.  And there are plenty of neighborhood cats that come through our yard so I think having a cat of my own wouldn't change much in the way of rodent population.  Thought of getting a rat terrier but can't have a dog barking all night chasing rats and annoying the neighbors.  And then there is the issue of cat and dog poop disposal.  Although... now that I have the soldier fly bin... I think I can feed cat/dog poop to the larvae.

I have several rat traps out.  Have to rotate bait since the rats get smart about it.  Got desperate last month and bought sticky traps...caught a lizard... DANG!  Was able to unstick him (took 20 mins) and he went on his way.  Pitched the sticky traps immediately.  Won't put poisons out since the chickens run the yard.  All traps have to be under a milk crate to keep the chickens safe and yet I still had one chicken get under the lid of the compost pile and knocked over the milk crate and got her toe snapped in a rat trap.  Fortunately I was in the yard at the time and was able to get the trap off her.  No lasting damage done.  Baking soda and cornmeal does nothing for my rodents.  They seem to eat it up and yet I don't find (or smell) any dead rats.  Tried floating sunflower seeds in a bucket, no luck.  Tried peanut butter on rotating can above bucket of water, no luck.  Snap traps with peanut butter or cheese works best... for a while.  Did have the chickens take out a nest of rodents once.  Was turning compost pile and baby rodents were in there.  Chickens came in and gulped them down whole.  I love my birds!  We even have an owl that has lived in our neighborhood for years.  We hear him every night.  We hope he is doing something to keep the population down, but we still have rats eating our food forest.

Plenty of habitat for lizards and snakes (and rats).  Build piles, rock walls on our raised garden beds, logs as climbing structures for the goats.  Veggie beds are fenced off so the chickens don't get in, but lizards can come and go as they please as a refuge from the chickens, and snakes could too!  If I get a pet store snake (or two or three), will they hunt?  Would I be able to get a mating pair?  Would I just cut them loose in the yard?  Was hoping to find a wild snake and import it here.  Then I would know it is adapted to life outdoors.  Would need to alert the neighbors that there is a new resident at our Urban Oasis, in case the snake wanders across property lines.

Do you know of a place where you can consistently find native non poisonous snakes?

You can make a lizard and snake catching stick.

Think of a fishing pole with a string on the end of it.  I have heard dental floss is best.  You don’t need much length, just enough to make a loop that will hang open, then slide closed once you have it around the snake’s neck.

Just a simple slip knot doesn’t slide closed well enough. I make any kind of small open loop, then pass the longer piece through the small open loop forming the easily opening and closing loop which hangs from the small end of the fishing pole or stick.


When you spy a snake or lizard, extend the loop down around the animal’s neck.  When they try to get away, that helps the loop close tightly.

The friend who taught me this used to make a catcher out of a tall piece of grass either seeds or flowers on the end.  The fine stem of the flowering grass worked for the loop.  Ingenious child he was.

Thekla McDaniels wrote:
You can make a lizard and snake catching stick.

Thanks Thekla.  Yes, this is exactly how I caught the lizards we imported into our yard.  The friend who taught me this said she learned it when she assisted with a lizard  survey and they used grass.  She said it works because lizards walk through grass all the time so being touched by it doesn't startle them.  So that is how I started.  Every day before we walked, I would get a new piece of grass.  Finding just the right piece, long enough, pliable enough on the end to make the loop, and strong enough on the other end to be able to hold the lasso out and steady was the challenge.  Then I went to a dowel and a bit of fishing string.  My husband called me the lizard wrangler with my lizard lasso.  I stopped collecting when we got to 14 lizards, hoping that was a good population.  Apparently it is since that was easily 3 years ago and we saw baby lizards in the yard again this year.

Hadn't thought of using it to catch a snake... So now I need to get out and about to some wildlands and remember to bring my lasso and mesh bag.  So hard to want to be away from our Oasis, but now I have a mission.  Altho in all the times we have been hiking, I've only seen a snake twice and once was a baby rattler.  Not bringing that one home!  I visited a friend last week and they had a dead baby gopher snake in their front yard.  Missed that opportunity by hours I think.  She said she would have gladly let me adopt that snake.

Riona Abhainn wrote:Indeed sometimes life has unforeseen consequences.

Especially if people walk around with their eyes closed.

Hi Carla, How fun!  I never met anyone else before who made a catching “stick” out of a stem of grass.  I had thought it was my childhood friend’s own invention.

Being as he was a child of the 50s, I thought the tradition may have died with the oft maligned boomer generation, as has so much else.

I am glad to know that the knowledge is still retained in the USA culture!

Happy hunting!

Build a snake habitat! Dig a diagonal hole (pretty deep) line it with flat rock at the opening and cover with flat rock, leaving the opening clear. If you don’t see snakes in a week, do buy a few.

carla murphy wrote:Wondering how I can import a snake or two into our 1/4 acre suburban backyard.  Any suggestions?  We have a problem with rats and mice.  I keep trapping them, they keep coming.  Our compost pile is a perfect habitat for them.  We've stopped putting food waste in there (built a secured worm/black soldier fly habitat that takes the food waste) but the rats are already here.  They hang out in our orange tree, eating the green fruit.  They stare at me from our sweet potato vines.  They scurry out of our 'hay barn' (only holds 11 bales of hay) and poop in our goat shed.  We got no fruit from our fruit trees this year.  The trees produced, but the varmits got all the fruit before it was even ripe.  16 five year old fruit trees of different varieties.  We planted for successive harvest and the varmits just moved from one tree to the next.  Now the seedling starts in the greenhouse are being topped and the 3ft tree collard plant has been stripped to just its trunk.

You might try putting something to slippery to climb (like metal duct pipe) around the trunk of the trees just at fruiting time.