The big hole in RMH information resources - and a suggested fix

Hi, I'm a long time lurker who has been very interested in RMH, specifically batch box style, for quite awhile.

Before I go any further, I want to make it clear I am super grateful for all the time, money, and work put into developing RMH.  THANK YOU!

I've seen some threads recently about a book in the works and possible ways to increase popularity of RMH.  It seems to me like there is a big hole in available information - a consistently reliable, long lasting, building plan for a 'basic model' (batch box).  

As a computer nerd, here is my best way to explain it...  you can easily find a Windows tutorial for just about anything that assumes no previous knowledge.  It will show you every single necessary step, often with screen shots, on how to complete a task.  Linux, on the other hand, seems to have all of their tutorials written with an assumption the reader is already an avid Linux user.  You'll  read an article that vaguely states you need to get this package and change a couple things in the config file.  From there you have to research how to do each thing, each of those articles having other things you have to search for until finally, 20 searches deep, you can complete what you're trying to do.

There is plenty of information on the why of RMH - many people are already sold on how efficient they are.  If you read reviews for books related to this subject you will see a theme - everyone says lots of great information, it'd be awesome to have one, I still have no idea how to build one.

There are tons of videos that show them being built, or discuss how a particular one was built.  BUT - the way everything is worded it always sounds like they are experimental, and need constant refining to get them to operate at peak efficiency.  In general, it seems like the community has had a lot of "I wonder if this would work?" over "How do I make one excellent design?" There is value to both questions, but when safety is on the line, I prefer tried and true.

There are lots of sprinkles of information:
- There are sizing charts, and core plans - with a separate discussion of bells
- Discussions of dampers, where they might go and how one might use them
- Discussions of different materials
- You can find plans, with notes saying something along the lines of "No longer recommended", without a new recommendation - which leaves people very nervous about trying a RMH
- People showing what they built, then discussing various problems that need to be addressed
- People using materials that are not long lasting - leading people to think these all have a short life span, &/or require constant up keep
( I think so far the primary objective was that the building materials be super affordable, which is awesome, but missing a whole sector of average Joes who just need to know this big thing they are building in their home is safe, and will last decades.)

I have also noticed that it is often suggested that people build them outside and do test runs.  This does not give people a lot of confidence that these are trustworthy - which is vital when we are talking about indoor fire.  It also just seems strange - once a plan that works is developed...  given it's assembled correctly, it should work.  I diy a lot - including framing, electrical, plumbing, etc.  and I've occasionally done a small mock up, or a tiny test run of a new product or technique, but asking someone to build a brick structure, unassemble it, and rebuild it, is a lot.

Here is my suggestion:
Someone knowledgeable should develop building plans for a somewhat compact BB RMH with a traditional brick and glass door appearance, and make them available for purchase.  It should use materials that will last decades - and clearly list all materials needed, and how/where to obtain them.  The instructions should not assume prior rmh knowledge, should be detailed, and written such that anyone can follow them.  It should include instructions for everything - including how to install the door, damper, clean outs, etc.  It should be something that, when built according to the plan, is consistently reliable.  The key factor here is that it needs to have easily reproducible results, so long as the fuel is the same and the chimney is the correct height, it should just work.  

Ever ask a kid to write instructions to make a peanut butter sandwich and follow them *exactly* as written?  You should


I have been eyeballing Walker Stove plans and the ones at FireSpeaking - they seem the closest to getting there.  It would be best if there were multiple people who had successful builds of the exact model before marketing the plans, and testimonials/reviews (from average joes) would be great.

Thanks for listening to my rambling  

I agree wholeheartedly!  Plus the plans should say how to actually get your hands on the correct materials.  Hobknobing at the local refractory supply house works for some folks but I'd want to know to order this sized piece of XYZ material which goes by the trade name ABC or KLP.

Leah,

You said you are a computer nerd, so I think you would be capable of compiling all data with the help of this forum and make a streamlined building path in some web/app form.

I agree as well.
So I wrote a couple.
Each RMH build is specific to its location.
Bell construction is nothing but a box be it brick or metal that fits in your space.

https://permies.com/t/242379/Detailed-Basic-Batchbox-Construction-Dragon
https://permies.com/t/236820/AVALABLE-Detailed-Batchbox-Door-Construction
https://dragontechrmh.com

Hello! I am a lurker as well and started down this same path of trying to figure it out for myself (bought a book, watched a bunch of vids...). My question is, now that I have fire brick and a 55 gal drum I want to try to build a "test" rmh, i.e. without mortar. I want to stack the fire brick and put the drum on it (then I need to figure out how to exhaust it - although I can build it outside to start. Will a mortar-less rocket mass stove (half-heater) work? Where can I go for help?

Thanks for any guidance. Meantime, I'll look at these books mentioned above for insight...

Ray Jacobs wrote:Hello! I am a lurker as well and started down this same path of trying to figure it out for myself (bought a book, watched a bunch of vids...). My question is, now that I have fire brick and a 55 gal drum I want to try to build a "test" rmh, i.e. without mortar. I want to stack the fire brick and put the drum on it (then I need to figure out how to exhaust it - although I can build it outside to start. Will a mortar-less rocket mass stove (half-heater) work? Where can I go for help?

Thanks for any guidance. Meantime, I'll look at these books mentioned above for insight...

Tom will probably jump in here, but the short answer is yes, the longer answer is depends.    Let me express in more detail.

Some of this depends on your temp during testing, some depends on how handy you are? ( such as making a tension frame)

So if you have watched some of Tom;s video's and maybe Glens or mine,  What I wanted point out is that your asking a potentially vague question as it would be hard to tell if you wanting to know if it will burn and light easily, or the style of your experiment?  i.e.  A J-tube will be the easiest to lite.  And it goes on from there.

But, are you wanting more in your test, such as knowing how a barrel transmits heat?    Again, so many variables.

But maybe as simple as wondering if you can dry stack bricks, and get by for a short test. To that I would probably yes, but it wouldn't hurt to toss out your ideas. on the actual layout of bricks.

Hi Jay;
Yes, you can dry stack a core for testing.
Your core, however, is not wide enough to sit a barrel on. You will need a brick surround (wall) on both sides of the core.
Something that 2/3rds of the barrel sits on for support.
The heat will exit out the bottom of the barrel behind the riser.

You want a 3"+ gap between the top of the riser and the lid of the barrel.
With a dry stack and no tension frame, you will have air leaks, you can use plain mud on the outside of the core if leakage is excessive.
Build your test, and light it off with no barrel.  Let it burn 20-30 minutes to get good and warmed up.
Then, using gloves lower the barrel over top and watch the effect it has on how well your J-Tube is burning.

What all this says to me is go ahead and build a RMH and see how it turns out.

Compiling more data is redundant.

build it and they will come ....

Leah Hamilton wrote:I have been eyeballing Walker Stove plans and the ones at FireSpeaking - they seem the closest to getting there.  It would be best if there were multiple people who had successful builds of the exact model before marketing the plans, and testimonials/reviews (from average joes) would be great.

I think it would be prohibitively expensive to get multiple builds by average joes, complete with reviews, before the plans were released. Who has that kind of money to invest? And how do you find average joes to build them before you release plans?

I'm doing my bit though, as best I can.  I fell in love with Matt Walkers tiny cookstove the moment I saw it as it seemed to fill a need - not too big, can be used for cooking, kinda like the sort of woodstove I cooked on and people aspire to have in their homes, layer by layer build plans available, heated bench, uses materials that can be purchased in a good hardware store, plus the efficiency of a rocket mass heater. We've been busy building it this year and have a thread about our experiences - Matt Walker tiny cookstove build in Portugal.

Anne Miller wrote:What all this says to me is go ahead and build a RMH and see how it turns out.

Anne is right - become part of the solution you seek by building one and sharing what you learn along the way. We're building ours as close as we possibly can to the plans as provided, Thomas Rubino can supply doors and parts if you are in the US, we're hoping to supply Matt with layouts using the size bricks that are available in Portugal so he can forward those to anyone who needs them.

One person can't do it all. But together we can go further than anyone can alone!

Leah -

I should preface my response to your post by saying that I haven't yet built a masonry heater of any sort, either, and I've gone through a similar process as have you, and perhaps even more in depth.  I have done a deep dive into historical masonry heater technology, generally, of which RMHs are a subset.  I am currently a couple of years down the rabbit hole of Russian/Baltic/Scandinavian masonry heater history and design.  This has included digging through many of the references in David Lyle's bibliography, and more.  I also am very interested in new (and old/forgotten!) ideas, but am unwilling to risk life and limb to experiment with unproven and potentially dangerous technology, especially when either my wife or father's health and welfare are on the line.  My own?  I am still pretty conservative, but am willing to take a few more risks.  I also tend to overvalue noetic knowledge over knowledge of experience - it's a personal weakness, and I'm aware of it and working on it.

An example of my risk tolerance: I recently refused to allow my wife to "help" me stand up a rail road tie knee wall which had flopped over, and then the tarp shed which had been standing on it.  The tools at hand to do this were a Hi-lift (farm/handy-man) jack, a couple of short lengths of pipe, a hank of light welded chain, a pinch bar and a bunch of cribbing and blocking.  She was ticked that I wouldn't let her get in there and help, but given the behavior of Hi-lift jacks, and the fact that the tarp shed frame was loaded up elastically, it was enough just trying to keep my own meaty bits out of the danger zone.  I got the job done so that I could get the camper backed in and protected from snow load (80 psf in my county, but 100 psf basic design load just over the county line, a few miles away).  In the long run, I'll get/make bin blocks to raise up the tarp shed enough to clear the camper, or I'll get a proper pole structure up for the camper, but for now, this is what I have and can do.  Even with well understood and proven technology  (inherently sketchy jack and lots of cribbing), but dubious skills on my part (I have moved small machine tools - under a ton or so unit weight - by hand using United Brotherhood of Pyramid Builders approved techniques, so am not completely new to rigging, but am far from professional), I am unwilling to subject her to unnecessary risks.  This shaggy dog story is just to say that I empathize with your concerns about installing a still-developing technology in my house using untested DIY masonry skills.

Leah Hamilton wrote:Hi, I'm a long time lurker who has been very interested in RMH, specifically batch box style, for quite awhile.

Of the RMH styles, I, too, am most interested in batch box designs.  I think they are most similar in operation to commonly used conventional wood stoves, and will consequently be the style most likely to experience deep market penetration.  They are also most likely to fit into a broad swathe of the US population's modern, overly-busy lifestyle.

Leah Hamilton wrote:Before I go any further, I want to make it clear I am super grateful for all the time, money, and work put into developing RMH.  THANK YOU!

Ditto.  X2.

Leah Hamilton wrote:
I've seen some threads recently about a book in the works and possible ways to increase popularity of RMH.  It seems to me like there is a big hole in available information - a consistently reliable, long lasting, building plan for a 'basic model' (batch box).  

If you read reviews for books related to this subject you will see a theme - everyone says lots of great information, it'd be awesome to have one, I still have no idea how to build one.

I'm not aware of any batch box specific book.  Of the generally available English language RMH books, I found the Wisner's book more applicable than Evans and Smiley Jackson to my my intended application(s), but both are good references.  Most batch box design and build documentation is online, as far as I am aware.  The info on the Donkey32 bulletin board is probably the most definitive summary of the basic design parameters.

Leah Hamilton wrote:
There are tons of videos that show them being built, or discuss how a particular one was built.  BUT - the way everything is worded it always sounds like they are experimental, and need constant refining to get them to operate at peak efficiency.  In general, it seems like the community has had a lot of "I wonder if this would work?" over "How do I make one excellent design?"

Some of this is due to the active development of the batch box technology, and some is probably just disclaimers of due caution - especially in the litigious atmosphere of the US.

Leah Hamilton wrote:
There are lots of sprinkles of information:
- There are sizing charts, and core plans - with a separate discussion of bells
- Discussions of dampers, where they might go and how one might use them
- Discussions of different materials
- You can find plans, with notes saying something along the lines of "No longer recommended", without a new recommendation - which leaves people very nervous about trying a RMH
- People showing what they built, then discussing various problems that need to be addressed
- People using materials that are not long lasting - leading people to think these all have a short life span, &/or require constant up keep
( I think so far the primary objective was that the building materials be super affordable, which is awesome, but missing a whole sector of average Joes who just need to know this big thing they are building in their home is safe, and will last decades.)

I have also noticed that it is often suggested that people build them outside and do test runs.  This does not give people a lot of confidence that these are trustworthy - which is vital when we are talking about indoor fire.  It also just seems strange - once a plan that works is developed...  given it's assembled correctly, it should work.  I diy a lot - including framing, electrical, plumbing, etc.  and I've occasionally done a small mock up, or a tiny test run of a new product or technique, but asking someone to build a brick structure, unassemble it, and rebuild it, is a lot.

Active development, variable availability of materials based on geography, suppliers and budget informs some of this.

It seems wise to advise DIY types to pilot their masonry heater skills someplace where they can't easily burn down their primary residence around their ears due to being complete tyros.  If someone doesn't want to go the DIY route, contacting someone who is a member of the Masonry Heater Association might be the best course of action.  It won't be cheap on a first cost basis, but quality often isn't.

Leah Hamilton wrote:
Here is my suggestion:
Someone knowledgeable should develop building plans for a somewhat compact BB RMH with a traditional brick and glass door appearance, and make them available for purchase.  It should use materials that will last decades - and clearly list all materials needed, and how/where to obtain them.  The instructions should not assume prior rmh knowledge, should be detailed, and written such that anyone can follow them.  It should include instructions for everything - including how to install the door, damper, clean outs, etc.  It should be something that, when built according to the plan, is consistently reliable.  The key factor here is that it needs to have easily reproducible results, so long as the fuel is the same and the chimney is the correct height, it should just work.

I agree, someone could/should collect and collate the available information and package it for the average consumer.  The field is wide open - maybe even for you!

Leah Hamilton wrote:
I have been eyeballing Walker Stove plans and the ones at FireSpeaking - they seem the closest to getting there.  It would be best if there were multiple people who had successful builds of the exact model before marketing the plans, and testimonials/reviews (from average joes) would be great.

Yes, I concur, the designs from Firespeakiing and Walker Stoves seem the closest to what you are looking for.  If you find a contraflow (rather than RMH) an acceptable form of mass heating (and they're fairly similar to the batch boxes), Maine Wood Heat and Firespeaking have DIY options available, and there is always Tulikivi.

If you can live with double bell, but not quite batch box, designs (i.e. usually under grate draft, rather than over fire), Igor Kuznetsov has dozens of freely available designs for brick heaters:
http://eng.stove.ru/products
These designs are sized for Russian bricks, which are slightly larger than American bricks, but otherwise, his instructions are pretty much like LEGO directions.

As my first foray into brick heater construction, I plan to build his OIK-14, which is very small (foot print is 2 bricks X 2 bricks).  Per usual, I have some ideas to adapt it to be more like a batch box.  I intend to build the fire box, as the Russians say "on the trench" - that is, no grate, with over fire draft.  I'll size a Peter pipe for it, for preheated secondary air, and will do a variation I've seen in a Russian language YouTube video using a fire brick lining of the fire box (so, a double skin combustion chamber).  I'll install this in an outbuilding.  It's the smallest brick masonry heater I'm currently aware of, so the labor and capital investment will be minimal, and I'm sure I'll learn a bunch.  I'll try to document what I did and what worked or didn't and why.

Good luck!

I know the length and amount of bends in the chimney affect the draw. Would different houses, requiring different chimney setups, be a reason that those adjustments are needed?

Leah Hamilton wrote:
As a computer nerd, here is my best way to explain it...  you can easily find a Windows tutorial for just about anything that assumes no previous knowledge.  It will show you every single necessary step, often with screen shots, on how to complete a task.  Linux, on the other hand, seems to have all of their tutorials written with an assumption the reader is already an avid Linux user.  You'll  read an article that vaguely states you need to get this package and change a couple things in the config file.  From there you have to research how to do each thing, each of those articles having other things you have to search for until finally, 20 searches deep, you can complete what you're trying to do.

Leah -

I think your analogy to operating systems is, in fact, quite apposite (I learned that word while watching "The Crown" with my wife a few winters ago; Her Royal Highness used it with the Price of Wales in some lover's quarrel or other).

The current state of RMHs generally, and perhaps batch boxes in particular, more so than J-tubes with their more mature development arc, are rather like Linux or other freeware development - lots of code branches, a few dead ends, much ferment, rapid development.  The average user is unlikely to remain on the bleeding edge of the technological frontier (Red Queen, and all), so will need to decide what they can live with, and just run that.  My laptop at home runs Linux, but I am not a very sophisticated user - free laptop (without OS) plus free OS, equals usable cheap computer.  At this point, I think I need to update the OS so that I can update my web browser to comply with Java Challenges - a lot of websites don't work properly for me anymore - and I'm not looking forward to the change process, unsophisticated user that I am.  This would be analogous to knowing that a new core exists which more robustly supports clean combustion in gusty winds, and is more compact and durable (say, no Peter tube needed), but replacement would require full tear down of the existing heater, replacement of the existing cast iron cook top with a custom sized glass (neoceram) cook top, and would also necessitate switching to a black oven because your old white oven would no longer fit (which would require changing how you bake).  Worth it?  Maybe, in the long run, but the immediate pain is non-trivial.  Staying up to date with a moving target can be costly.

Buying a masonry heater built by one of the masons listed in the Masonry Heater Association's directory, or even a pre-cast contraflow core (whether from Maine Wood Heat, from Firespeaking or from Tulikivi), and faced with your choice of materials by a local mason, or perhaps even having a tile stove built by one of the stove makers from Europe, is more like running Windows.  Plug-n-play, and priced appropriately.

That is the current state of play, as far as I can tell.

It would be indeed be nice, to extend your analogy, of having a Red Hat or even Linux Mint batch box for those who can't or don't want to roll their own.  But, I don't think we're quite there yet (shippable cores and Shorty cores, and pre-welded doors from Thomas Rubino, or cast heater hardware through Firespeaking or Maine Wood Heat, all notwithstanding), and constructing a masonry heater is a labor intensive enterprise under most any circumstances (even in the case of the pre-cast contra-flows, I think you'll find that labor will be a substantial portion of the upfront cost), so the variable of labor quality and cost seems like it will be omnipresent.  Even if the labor is DIY.

The Gamera and Liberator rocket heaters, which can be plumbed into a site-built thermal masses, may as close as we currently have to a Linux Mint analogous RMH.  The aesthetic is a bit utilitarian, but that's what is available.

Thoughts?

Kevin

Scott Weinberg wrote:

Tom will probably jump in here, but the short answer is yes, the longer answer is depends.    Let me express in more detail.

Some of this depends on your temp during testing, some depends on how handy you are? ( such as making a tension frame)

So if you have watched some of Tom;s video's and maybe Glens or mine,  What I wanted point out is that your asking a potentially vague question as it would be hard to tell if you wanting to know if it will burn and light easily, or the style of your experiment?  i.e.  A J-tube will be the easiest to lite.  And it goes on from there.

But, are you wanting more in your test, such as knowing how a barrel transmits heat?    Again, so many variables.

But maybe as simple as wondering if you can dry stack bricks, and get by for a short test. To that I would probably yes, but it wouldn't hurt to toss out your ideas. on the actual layout of bricks.

Thanks for your reply! I am looking to see if I can get it to burn fairly efficiently before I add mortar and then progressively test each step (add barrel, add ducting & mass). I think my takeaway is test a short burn - I have a copy of the Wisners' RMH Builder's Guide starting with the J tube and then go from there.  

thomas rubino wrote:Hi Jay;
Yes, you can dry stack a core for testing.
Your core, however, is not wide enough to sit a barrel on. You will need a brick surround (wall) on both sides of the core.
Something that 2/3rds of the barrel sits on for support.
The heat will exit out the bottom of the barrel behind the riser.

You want a 3"+ gap between the top of the riser and the lid of the barrel.
With a dry stack and no tension frame, you will have air leaks, you can use plain mud on the outside of the core if leakage is excessive.
Build your test, and light it off with no barrel.  Let it burn 20-30 minutes to get good and warmed up.
Then, using gloves lower the barrel over top and watch the effect it has on how well your J-Tube is burning.

Perfect! Thank you for the tips, I think I have enough to go on now.

Leah Hamilton wrote:Hi, I'm a long time lurker who has been very interested in RMH, specifically batch box style, for quite awhile.

Before I go any further, I want to make it clear I am super grateful for all the time, money, and work put into developing RMH.  THANK YOU!

I've seen some threads recently about a book in the works and possible ways to increase popularity of RMH.  It seems to me like there is a big hole in available information - a consistently reliable, long lasting, building plan for a 'basic model' (batch box).  

As a computer nerd, here is my best way to explain it...  you can easily find a Windows tutorial for just about anything that assumes no previous knowledge.  It will show you every single necessary step, often with screen shots, on how to complete a task.  Linux, on the other hand, seems to have all of their tutorials written with an assumption the reader is already an avid Linux user.  You'll  read an article that vaguely states you need to get this package and change a couple things in the config file.  From there you have to research how to do each thing, each of those articles having other things you have to search for until finally, 20 searches deep, you can complete what you're trying to do.

There is plenty of information on the why of RMH - many people are already sold on how efficient they are.  If you read reviews for books related to this subject you will see a theme - everyone says lots of great information, it'd be awesome to have one, I still have no idea how to build one.

There are tons of videos that show them being built, or discuss how a particular one was built.  BUT - the way everything is worded it always sounds like they are experimental, and need constant refining to get them to operate at peak efficiency.  In general, it seems like the community has had a lot of "I wonder if this would work?" over "How do I make one excellent design?" There is value to both questions, but when safety is on the line, I prefer tried and true.

There are lots of sprinkles of information:
- There are sizing charts, and core plans - with a separate discussion of bells
- Discussions of dampers, where they might go and how one might use them
- Discussions of different materials
- You can find plans, with notes saying something along the lines of "No longer recommended", without a new recommendation - which leaves people very nervous about trying a RMH
- People showing what they built, then discussing various problems that need to be addressed
- People using materials that are not long lasting - leading people to think these all have a short life span, &/or require constant up keep
( I think so far the primary objective was that the building materials be super affordable, which is awesome, but missing a whole sector of average Joes who just need to know this big thing they are building in their home is safe, and will last decades.)

I have also noticed that it is often suggested that people build them outside and do test runs.  This does not give people a lot of confidence that these are trustworthy - which is vital when we are talking about indoor fire.  It also just seems strange - once a plan that works is developed...  given it's assembled correctly, it should work.  I diy a lot - including framing, electrical, plumbing, etc.  and I've occasionally done a small mock up, or a tiny test run of a new product or technique, but asking someone to build a brick structure, unassemble it, and rebuild it, is a lot.

Here is my suggestion:
Someone knowledgeable should develop building plans for a somewhat compact BB RMH with a traditional brick and glass door appearance, and make them available for purchase.  It should use materials that will last decades - and clearly list all materials needed, and how/where to obtain them.  The instructions should not assume prior rmh knowledge, should be detailed, and written such that anyone can follow them.  It should include instructions for everything - including how to install the door, damper, clean outs, etc.  It should be something that, when built according to the plan, is consistently reliable.  The key factor here is that it needs to have easily reproducible results, so long as the fuel is the same and the chimney is the correct height, it should just work.  

Ever ask a kid to write instructions to make a peanut butter sandwich and follow them *exactly* as written?  You should


I have been eyeballing Walker Stove plans and the ones at FireSpeaking - they seem the closest to getting there.  It would be best if there were multiple people who had successful builds of the exact model before marketing the plans, and testimonials/reviews (from average joes) would be great.

Thanks for listening to my rambling  

You summed up my feelings exactly.  I've been interested in RMHs for years, I promise myself "this time I'm going to learn this", dive in head-first, reread everything I can find until my head is spinning and I'm more confused than when I started.  I'm not a dumb guy and I work in a highly technical field.  I'm also pretty good at building things and DIY, but I just seem to have a huge mental block about this subject that makes me wonder if I'm just not smart enough to ever figure it out  

Mike Haasl wrote:  Plus the plans should say how to actually get your hands on the correct materials.  Hobknobing at the local refractory supply house works for some folks but I'd want to know to order this sized piece of XYZ material which goes by the trade name ABC or KLP.

x10  I've even decided "I'll just buy all the stuff and that will force me to try this" and then I get stuck right here.  I can't even find a source for firebrick that isn't big box store prices.

I wrote a detailed book on batchbox assembly, and another on building a heavy-duty door for them.
I had Peter Berg proof read it over to confirm its accuracy.
I suggest where and how to find things like firebricks in that book.
Big box store bricks are poor quality and intended for box stoves, not batchboxes.
Not everyone lives close to a full-size city, I travel 125 miles each way to buy supplies.
Some who live far away might need to travel much farther (think Alaska) where folks think nothing of traveling half a day or more to reach any city.

Is a book necessary?   No, it is not.
Every bit of construction info is available, from Peter directly on his website  (https://batchrocket.eu/en/building) here on Permies  https://permies.com/f/260/rocket-mass-heaters
from me at https://dragontechrmh.com/  or from Matt at  https://walkerstoves.com/   On Donkey Pro boards you can get very technical into building if you are interested in details https://donkey32.proboards.com/  All of this information is freely shared with the world.

I wrote these books to help folks avoid massive confusion with the overload of information on batchboxes.
As stated, building practices are constantly changing over the last decade.
As changes are proven they become the new standard for building.
Books written 5 - 10 years ago about J-Tube construction do not apply to Batchbox construction in 2024.
An auto repair manual for your 1968 Chevy would not help you fix your 2024 Chevy.
My books will be outdated soon, as Peter's new designs gain in popularity.
No one book can offer every detail that is changing.
Peter is a master builder and is still developing new Batchbox designs that are completely different from his first designs.

The bottom line
Anyone, any age, any gender can build an RMH if they desire it enough.
Some folks like myself in 2013, hear about these amazing wood burners and simply must have one.
I had all the same issues that others have, where do I get this? how do I do this?  There was one book available at that time (Ianto Evans) other than that there was Permies.
I bought the book, I read all the posts, I asked questions at Permies, I Purple Moosaged Matt Walker asking detailed questions.
I located all the parts and pieces and I just built one!    
Did I build it well??? Not really, but it worked and made me even more determined to build it better.

There can not reasonably be any mailorder all-inclusive RMH "kit".
Sure, I could load pallets of firebricks and clay bricks and all the other pieces and parts.
Not sure how many pallets that would take, half a dozen I would guess...
So truck freight to your house, the cost of all those pieces and parts, OH and you will need a forklift to unload that truck...
I would guess that might cost $5-10,00.
Now you have a yard full of pallets And you will still need to assemble those parts...

I hear that calling a stove-certified mason and having a European-designed masonry stove built easily costs $30,000 or more.
But...  there are no worries about supplies or building practices.



 

thomas rubino wrote:I wrote a detailed book on batchbox assembly, and another on building a heavy-duty door for them.
...

Hey Thomas, I didn't realize your books were out yet.  I'll order them both, maybe that will be the push I need to get going :)

If you ever teach a class on this, I'm one of those people that learns much better by doing, and I love road trips :)  I hope if you have a class sometime, you post the info here.  I would love to attend one.

Would like to echo sentiment of OP. In fact, logged on today for first time in a long time with plans to post something almost identical.  Imagine my surprise. For those wondering, read thru this thread again, from first OP to this post, and then ask yourself how much jargon is used......how many references to people? Walker? Ernie and Erica? If you were a person......any person......who had heard of the concept and wanted to hire a local brick mason to build you something that would not only work as advertised, but pass muster with your insurance company inspector, could you do it? Probably not........which is why nobody does. I know I couldn't and I tried. Anything past conventional wood stoves and fireplaces hits a brick wall.

For reference, my interest and history with "rockets" goes back to having purchased a "book" by Ianto Evans and Leslie Jackson. The "rocket" name caught my attention as I had a chimney fire once when the built up creosote from a chocked down fireplace insert caught fire. That was a rocket. If you could duplicate that and control it, you had something.

But as for Evans and Jackson, we have come a long way baby to get where we are today. What is needed is something similar.......a collaboration of the brain trust......as to theory, build parameters (why is barrel 3" above the rise?), etc. The pros and cons of j-tubes, batch boxes, reasons for air channels, etc. The why of it. Same for benches, bells, etc. The experimentation is not over, but far enough down the road to come up with "best practices" that people can understand, then adapt to their situation.

There are two major forks to this tree. Rocket mass heaters and masonry heaters. The latter seems to be a european thing. Russians, etc. As near as I can tell, those are not "rockety" per se, but utilize serpentine burn channels to extract heat from the flue gases, which then radiate over time.

As for USA rocket heaters, there is a wealth of info available, but not widely known. A perfect example is a set of utube videos posted by a family who bought a Liberator Rocket stove, who are very happy with it, but in reality, have no clue what they are doing. Rather than let it roar and extract the heat downstream using a mass, they are choking it down with dampers and going for extended burn time.

But as for that book of knowledge, it needs to be an E-book, updated frequently as numbered editions. The basic core of knowledge such that any side branches can be understood and adapted. Do that and I think we can break out from the rut and run with it.

BTW, there are some other guys who as far as I know are not part of the permies family but are having a lot of fun experimenting with concepts.  One guy in particular on youtube has a whole series of videos on enhancing the rocket vortexes to extract maximum heat.  search for "Fox Fish Rocket Stoves"

But as far as I can tell, Fox Fish does nothing with it. Does not try to store the heat. But concepts are fascinating. His is a vertical burn chamber........no side stack per se. Imagine if that were grafted onto a russian masonry heater?

That is Fox James, who is a regular contributor here. His main experimentation happens in an outdoor patio cooking setting. He also builds pizza ovens. His combustion core experiments could easily be applied by someone with interior heating needs.

Eugene Howard wrote:There are two major forks to this tree. Rocket mass heaters and masonry heaters. The latter seems to be a european thing. Russians, etc. As near as I can tell, those are not "rockety" per se, but utilize serpentine burn channels to extract heat from the flue gases, which then radiate over time.

I might describe this differently. A rocket mass heater is a kind of masonry heater. This particular form of masonry heater, that we call a rocket mass heater, combines a very hot very efficient burn with a mechanism to store the heat and release it where we want, rather than up the chimney. But not all masonry heaters are rocket mass heaters.

Eugene Howard wrote:But as for that book of knowledge, it needs to be an E-book, updated frequently as numbered editions.

I would probably disagree that it NEEDS to be an e-book. But I like the idea of have different revisions. I see many authors do this for books that warrant it.


Also, have you seen the Better Wood Heat DVD Set? I have been watching through them, and while it does not touch on batchbox... it does fill in a lot of knowledge I was missing from just watching youtube and reading threads.

My reasoning for the E-book is the technology is evolving. Once put to paper or video, it's only good until the next, best idea comes along. The E-book idea means you don't have to look any further. That IS the state of the art.

BTW, while I don't claim to be an expert on writing books, I did once teach an online course and to get certified for that had to take a course on learning styles. Talk about an eye opener. If memory serves, there are about seven of them. Good education materials address all. Not just written words, but visual learners like me prefer photographs, sketches, etc. Videos are also very good, but hard to put into books. You can put in links to videos. And those can also be updated as better material is produced.

For a quick run down on all things rocket-mass heater, Paul has a page on his richsoil site, a sister site to permies.com, which sums up a lot, has a lot of videos and links to plans and books and things.

It's probably due for an update, some of the links don't seem to link properly any more, and is very heavy on J-tube technology. But it's a good starting point!

Paul's richsoil page about rocket mass heaters

Burra Maluca wrote:For a quick run down on all things rocket-mass heater, Paul has a page on his richsoil site, a sister site to permies.com, which sums up a lot, has a lot of videos and links to plans and books and things.

It's probably due for an update, some of the links don't seem to link properly any more, and is very heavy on J-tube technology. But it's a good starting point!

Paul's richsoil page about rocket mass heaters

This is a nearly perfect example of what I am talking about. Going thru the links, likely as not everything a person needs to build something is probably in there. But more like a big shoe box full of notes vs. taking all those notes and organizing them into a coherent manuscript that one can follow.

To elaborate a bit more, there is a wealth of info out there on the mass heaters. But much of it still in promotional form.......like sales brochures. I'm past being convinced. I'm sold. I'm ready to build. I need the detailed instructions......way past all the experimental stuff.........current state of the art instructions for a safe, durable, reliable heater. Complete build. I don't think we have that.

Trace Oswald wrote:

thomas rubino wrote:I wrote a detailed book on batchbox assembly, and another on building a heavy-duty door for them.
...

Hey Thomas, I didn't realize your books were out yet.  I'll order them both, maybe that will be the push I need to get going :)

If you ever teach a class on this, I'm one of those people that learns much better by doing, and I love road trips :)  I hope if you have a class sometime, you post the info here.  I would love to attend one.

Uncle Mud is teaching a hands in cob class with an RMH demonstration!

Last time I was in that situation, I waited 25 years for someone else to write the book that would simplify and teach me how to make the thing.

In the mean time, I volunteered to help other people do it, took classes, experimented on my own, read every scrap of text in the English language that came close to talking about it.

And it ended up that no one with the skillset seemed willing to write the book I needed.  So I had to do it.

And I discovered my problem was school.  I was trained to seek the one correct answer because in exams, there is only one.  Life isn't that way, and it was the "here is what I did" that were way more useful than the "do it this way".


Every few months I see workshops or a help me build, etc for rocket mass heaters.  I wonder if it would take a novice to write that book you seek.  Or someone starting out, and remembering what they are looking for in a book.  Attend some classes. Volunteer to help with builds.  Experiment.  Then maybe once you get to that level of dangerous knowledge where you enough to be confident,  but not so much to lose courage,  write the first draft, then team up with an expert to edit in the missing bits?  There are some amazing experts here.

thomas rubino wrote:I wrote a detailed book on batchbox assembly, and another on building a heavy-duty door for them.
I had Peter Berg proof read it over to confirm its accuracy.
I suggest where and how to find things like firebricks in that book.

Well, geez, Louise!  How did I not remember that Thomas had written a book on building a batch box?

I was just on his website, eyeing up the Robax, because I'd like to order a spare piece or two for my dad's wood stove, just in case something goes sideways.  In an emergency, I could just fit a piece of sheet metal in the hole so he can keep making heat, but it's nice to be able to see how the fire is doing, and of course, it's caveman television, so who doesn't like that?

Anyway, mea maxima culpa, Thomas, for not remembering that you had written these two books.

And thanks for the gracious reminder.  My wife has been asking what I want for Christmas.  Maybe the batch box book will find its way into my stocking!

Kevin

Just wanted to say, there is a Liberator Rocket Heater commercial product available.

I think a good interim solution might be for a volunteer to create a wiki page here on permies, make it editable by other members, and start to compile a list to all the resources. J-tube and batchbox info, plans, videos, who's who, everything.

Then it can be updated easily, people can make suggestions as to what to put in it. When it's useful enough, a link can be put up on the top of the rmh forum page. Maybe there can be more wikis we can link to about individual topics which can also be kept updated, like" what is a batch box?" or "where can I source materials in Portugal?" or "links to builds of Matt Walker's designs"

I'd happily add links here and there but I no longer have the energy to do the whole thing. So who wants to get the ball rolling?

Leah - you want to create a wiki post with the basic outline of what would work for you so others can begin to fill it in?

Good stove building book/e-book should have the following:

1. Theoretical basics.
Gas movement theory, examples:
-movement of heated gases and cooled gases - affects design of canals in the firebox/heater
-gas movement as equivalent of liquid movement but in reverse
-chimneys

Formulas, examples:
-to calculate volume of gas at a given temperature and from that - speed of gases in the channels and the chimney can be derived and the chimney or firebox size adjusted
-caloric values and specific gravity of popular firewoods - to calculate power of the firebox
-energy emission per area of the heater surface - to help calculate the power emitted to the room
-efficiency of the firebox and heat exchange to know true efficiency of the whole system
-etc.

Theoretical base allows reader to question the designs and not accept anything blindly.

2. Materials
-description of hard and insulating refractories
-chemical composition and how it affects the efficiency and longevity
-comparison of physical properties of materials
-refractory aggregates/grog, criteria for selection
-clays and cements
-preparing mortars
-coatings

3. Basic brick laying techniques:
-joints sizing
-brick positions
-bond patterns
-leveling
-arch/vault building
-corbelling

4. Metal in the heaters:
-doors: where to get, or how to fabricate, how to install
-dampers: where to get, or how to fabricate, how to install
-t-bars and angle iron
-secondary air tubes
-tensions frames
-stainless steels, high nickel alloys and refractory metals

5. Various designs of masonry heaters discussed. Some history.

6. Design of known fireboxes: L-, J-tube cores. Batchbox, shoe-box, shorty, vortex, Walker, Podgornikov type cooking firebox, etc.
Picking the size based on desired power. Dimensions, scaling, material selection.

7. Designs of heater skins. Benches explained. Cooking stove with heater.
How to build the heater's ceiling:
-bricks on columns
-slabs
-arched vault
-corbel arch
-t-bars with bricks
-bricks suspended on round all-thread bars
-other

8. Design of additional heating devices:
-cooking stoves
-ovens
-grills
-smokers
-water heaters
-other

9. Listing of additional resources, stores, websites, etc.


Masonry heater building books that I have read were structured in a similar way.

Cristobal Cristo wrote:Good stove building book/e-book should have the following:...

I have the feeling that if such a book were written about rocket mass heaters, the readership would amount to about three in total.

What seems to be needed is much more of a 'how on earth do I actually build one of those things?' book to empower people to take that first step.

Well, that book would answer the questions of the thread creator and more ambitious builders.
If someone does not want to read a book, they can go through various websites, articles and extract the information they need. It's already available.
Regular masonry heater building books are structured this way and help to understand a lot of ideas and connect them. Simple building recipes are not so simple after all, because they leave a lot of questions not answered, they are based on vague assumptions and leave the reader sometimes even more confused.

Leah Hamilton wrote:It seems to me like there is a big hole in available information - a consistently reliable, long lasting, building plan for a 'basic model' (batch box).  

This is the one I chose. I essentially handed my new partner the plans and let him learn about rocket mass heaters by building me one.

Here's a link to the page that sells the plans - Matt Walker Tiny Cookstove plans



I think that so far this is the closest thing available to what you are looking for.

Cristobal Cristo wrote:Well, that book would answer the questions of the thread creator and more ambitious builders.
If someone does not want to read a book, they can go through various websites, articles and extract the information they need. It's already available.
Regular masonry heater building books are structured this way and help to understand a lot of ideas and connect them. Simple building recipes are not so simple after all, because they leave a lot of questions not answered, they are based on vague assumptions and leave the reader sometimes even more confused.

Cristobal - could you compile a list of links to resources that you think would be good in a wiki page? If we can't make a book, let's at least make a top-notch page with resources.

If someone makes the basic wiki I can help edit links in and try to keep it tidy. And if the resource doesn't exist, maybe make a post or wiki-page to fill the need.

r ranson wrote:...

And it ended up that no one with the skillset seemed willing to write the book I needed.  So I had to do it.

And I discovered my problem was school.  I was trained to seek the one correct answer because in exams, there is only one.  Life isn't that way, and it was the "here is what I did" that were way more useful than the "do it this way".


Every few months I see workshops or a help me build, etc for rocket mass heaters.  I wonder if it would take a novice to write that book you seek.  Or someone starting out, and remembering what they are looking for in a book.  Attend some classes. Volunteer to help with builds.  Experiment.  Then maybe once you get to that level of dangerous knowledge where you enough to be confident,  but not so much to lose courage,  write the first draft, then team up with an expert to edit in the missing bits?  There are some amazing experts here.

This is so important in thinking about writing "THE" book on the subject.  The technology is evolving so rapidly that design changes mean the book would soon be outdated.  If you look at masonry heaters for example they have been around for many hundreds of years yet so they are a more evolved technology yet finding a truly comprehensive book for the DYIer on doing them in all instances is difficult.  It may be there in another language but as best I can tell it is not there in english.

The other problem is that location and needs are different in each location.   So it would be hard to come up with a single recipe that would work in a majority of locations.  At best likely all you can do is a set of 8 or 10 recipes with rules for modification to meet local needs.

C. Letellier wrote:It may be there in another language but as best I can tell it is not there in english.

Yes that's true. I have used various websites in the past for help, knowledge and inspiration: in Polish, Russian and French. Anglo sphere just does not have tradition of building masonry heaters and even not much masonry at all (I mentioned it in another thread about changing the RMH name). So it makes sense to copy the masters first and slowly develop resources in English.

C. Letellier wrote:The other problem is that location and needs are different in each location.   So it would be hard to come up with a single recipe that would work in a majority of locations.

That's why theoretical base is so important. So instead of blindly following recipes you can adjust them to the requirements of the location: material availability, functions, sizing, shape, finish, codes, etc.

Burra Maluca wrote:Cristobal - could you compile a list of links to resources that you think would be good in a wiki page? If we can't make a book, let's at least make a top-notch page with resources.

Surely I can, but they will be mostly in these 3 languages I mentioned in the post above.
Websites can be easily translated.
Also there would be some facebook page and videos.

Cristobal Cristo wrote:
That's why theoretical base is so important. So instead of blindly following recipes you can adjust them to the requirements of the location: material availability, functions, sizing, shape, finish, codes, etc.

I'm the kind of person who does want to understand the "Why" of things, so that I can adapt to differing circumstances.

But, some people just want a recipe to follow.

Some people are happy being a line cook, some want to be a chef.  We need both, and I think there is a place for resources for both types of people.

My impression is that Leah isn't interested (at least, not at this time) in becoming a thermal mass heater engineer, but she would like clear instructions on how to build her own, while others of us enjoy contemplating under what circumstances a condensing exhaust would actually function, and when it might be ill advised (or if it's ever advisable).  Some people just need heat for this winter, safely and simply.

I recall trying to help my daughter, now well into her 30s, with her mathematics school homework.  Trying to explain the slope-intercept formula for a line to her, I began with a discussion of Cartesian (orthogonal) coordinates, just so she understood the playing field.  She wasn't interested in a deep dive, and became frustrated with my attempts at explaining the background for her homework.  She just wanted a procedure (an algorithm) to get the "right" answers and be done.  She has many gifts - she is very good at organizing people and things - but analytic geometry isn't one of them, not by a long stretch.

There are many good reasons a person might not want to become a master of the theoretical basis for masonry heaters - lack of natural interest, lack of free time, or being, in fact, quite cold right now (it might be easier to focus on the theoretical underpinnings after one is comfortably lounging on a heated RMH bench!).

The "theoretical base is so important" to you and to me, but probably not to Leah.  At least, not right now.

I would like to know what a Wiki page is exactly and how in the end, it will be different than a forum site such as this.

if the end, the answer is,  it is a collection of things, then how is the collection different.  

is it connected to something different or is it a collective all it's own.  

Do people contribute directly or to a few constructors of this " Wiki Page"

Inquiring minds would like to know.   I presume this is a simple answer, as it is has been stated as a good solution for providing lots of answers.

Scott Weinberg wrote:I would like to know what a Wiki page is exactly and how in the end, it will be different than a forum site such as this.

Hi Scott,
On permies, a wiki is just a specific kind of thread that enables editing over time. A normal thread can only be edited for a certain length of time by the person who created it. A Wiki allows multiple people to edit it as the information changes over time. It would let you keep the relevant information in the first post... rather than buried at the bottom of the list of posts.