Preliminary ideas for housing 6 Boots

Good evening .
I am new here but my curiosity is old , and big .
I like the idea . May we know what kind of materials are you intend to use for the exterior wall ? 18" maybe not enough for very cold zone ...

George

Probably TBD at this point. However, Catherine started out talking about housing at Paul's W-Labs and Paul has put a lot of effort into building earth bermed structures using round wood (logs). That would be a likely bet. I'm not familiar with the preferred details, though perhaps others from the lab will chime in.


Regards,
Rufus

OK . Maybe you are nice to tell me what it is TBD ...
All I know the logs are not enough to insulate a house , not in my country .
Sorry , therefore I ask , to learn about unknown materials ...

george catalin wrote:OK . Maybe you are nice to tell me what it is TBD ...
All I know the logs are not enough to insulate a house , not in my country . Sorry , therefore I ask , to learn about unknown materials ...

Thank you for asking, George. I'm sure there were others wondering too. Sorry to disappoint you possibly, but TBD are initials for "to be determined". In other words, we're still making suggestions and trying to decide what would be best for the climate, and cost effective, and practical. I agree that those sorts of decisions are tough. There is a community near me that is trying to build efficiently and naturally. They sometimes do straw-bale for the coldest walls (north in particular), but straw is expensive and hard to get here, so they do cob or other options for other walls. To keep the code people happy, they often have logs as the primary support and the other materials as infill. There are many factors, and this thread is just for brainstorming ideas of what might work.

As to the rocket stoves, I suggest two, one for the south facing side and one for the north facing side.

Since most people either run hot or cold, put the cold people on the south facing side;
put the hot people on the north facing side;
have the two rocket mass heaters on the inner circle;
have one bench through the inner wall into the south three rooms;
have the other bench run through the inner wall into the north last three rooms.

Now there are only two rocket stoves to run and each group can sort themselves out into who needs the most heat in the hot group and the cold group.

Now the rooms have a heated bench to sit on or a warm bed to lay on.

Lastly, the amount of work to create 6 RMH's just dropped by more than half.

I was assuming that this would be another WOFATI type of build at the lab to house the boots ?

This assumption means most materiel's will come from the lab.

I assume logs for walls and roof.

I assume outside covered with barrier and covered in as thick a layer of soil as possible, to add to thermal inertia of building.

I assume windows and doors on south facing side.

I assume a build that can be built rather quickly as part of an on site class. Materials would be prepped and ready ahead of the build.

I assume lots of cob work done .

I assume any new innovations that Paul and his group have come up with, which were learned from the other WOFATI builds, would be incorporated into this new build..

If there is a concern about an internal fire, I think an escape hallway / tunnel could be build out of the north facing side. Built long enough, it could also function as a cooling earth tube or cold storage room.

Miles Flansburg wrote:

I was assuming that this would be another WOFATI type of build at the lab to house the boots ?

I wasn't making assumptions. Maybe having a different, yet still environmentally sound, sort of building would give the lab something to compare the WOFATI too? All the WOFATI plans have been for quite small buildings. Sometimes there are efficiencies in a single larger structure, compared to many quite small structures.

That said, the suggestion above for a "dog trot" style of building would lend itself to essentially a series of attached "row house" WOFATI possibly?

This thread kind of sprang out of Jocelyn's rule of 15 - going beyond leave no trace - giving a leg up, where she talks about holing up in her room because she can't handle the mess that has become her house. She likes things really neat, and not everyone seems to be able to maintain that. So she's dreaming of a tiny house for her to cook in, rather than preparing food in her room.

So, we started dreaming of ways for her to get her kitchen back! I think that, since there still aren't water systems at the Lab, this would happen at Basecamp? But, since neither Jocelyn nor Paul have likely noticed this thread, let alone given any guidance, we really have no idea.

Would there be a way for a earthshelted octagonal/circle house to have multiple bedrooms that have windows? I honestly don't know enough about wofati building to know the answer to that!

Jay Angler wrote:

george catalin wrote:OK . Maybe you are nice to tell me what it is TBD ...
All I know the logs are not enough to insulate a house , not in my country . Sorry , therefore I ask , to learn about unknown materials ...

Thank you for asking, George. I'm sure there were others wondering too. Sorry to disappoint you possibly, but TBD are initials for "to be determined". In other words, we're still making suggestions and trying to decide what would be best for the climate, and cost effective, and practical. I agree that those sorts of decisions are tough. There is a community near me that is trying to build efficiently and naturally. They sometimes do straw-bale for the coldest walls (north in particular), but straw is expensive and hard to get here, so they do cob or other options for other walls. To keep the code people happy, they often have logs as the primary support and the other materials as infill. There are many factors, and this thread is just for brainstorming ideas of what might work.

Jay Angler wrote:

george catalin wrote:OK . Maybe you are nice to tell me what it is TBD ...
All I know the logs are not enough to insulate a house , not in my country . Sorry , therefore I ask , to learn about unknown materials ...

Thank you for asking, George. I'm sure there were others wondering too. Sorry to disappoint you possibly, but TBD are initials for "to be determined". In other words, we're still making suggestions and trying to decide what would be best for the climate, and cost effective, and practical. I agree that those sorts of decisions are tough. There is a community near me that is trying to build efficiently and naturally. They sometimes do straw-bale for the coldest walls (north in particular), but straw is expensive and hard to get here, so they do cob or other options for other walls. To keep the code people happy, they often have logs as the primary support and the other materials as infill. There are many factors, and this thread is just for brainstorming ideas of what might work.

Dear Mr Jay , please excuse me for my ignorance to not knowing some abbreviations . I feel stupid , so you can smile ... my English is not the best .
What can I say is that my grandmother used in the past a mixture with yellow clay ,horse dung and water to finish the interior end exterior walls . After dry , the walls were painted with white slaked lime , old kind of lime . Every year , before the Easter celebration .
The wall were made from yellow clay  with wheat straw , about 50-60 cm thick .
Also , in present , my brother-in-low has a house with same walls , but 30 cm  thick and some insulation , because the thickness is not enough , not for winter , not for summer .

Also peoples built house like this ...    

I wasn't sure, but I assumed this idea had to do with Jocelyn's post.

I am busy drawing designs, based on the idea of the first post: a large circular building with one-person-rooms around a central community room. I am not yet satisfied with my design, some little things have to change.

Because of Paul's view on things, this building has to be made of local materials. In the first place there are trees from their own woods. Then there are straw bales, clay and sand and 'dirt'; I think of cob over the straw bales and an 'dirt' covered roof. In the way the wofati's are made. I am thinking of a way to combine the wofati design with the round shape (it won't be a real wofati, but can have some aspects of it).

To be livable this building needs to have windows. Maybe it's possible to find second hand windows (craig's list). But then it's difficult to find them in the right sizes. So the windows probably need to be bought, new.

George, very interesting videos!
So you're from Romania. That's one of the countries on my wish list to visit.  

When looking for recycled windows contacting local window installers or reno/demo contractors is often the answer.

When homeowners replace windows the old ones get hauled to the dump and pay tip fees. Same goes for whole house or industrial demo's - I've even collected windows by ogling those in the dump line up and asked those dumping if I can have their windows/sliding doors.

Some dumps even allow folk to remove deposited stuff for free.

The downside is a contractor would likely make you take all windows from a reno/demo site (all or nothing, no picking and choosing) and they would, most likely, not be the best or most energy efficient windows.  The leftover windows that don't "fit" could be used for cold frames, greenhouses etc. Older, single pane windows could be doubled up - with the thick walls planned one could install TWO single pane windows, one flush with the interior, one flush with the exterior walls.

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:George, very interesting videos!
So you're from Romania. That's one of the countries on my wish list to visit.  

It is the wonderful and  rich country , like a paradise . You can find some place I have no words to describe them .
Unfortunately not all the people knows what to do with the land of God .
To preserve the topic theme I will prezent a castle made with natural materials . A family run from Bucharest and built this castle like in stories .

https://www.pinterest.ie/dmitica/castelul-de-lut/
Also you can find about castle on facebook ...

https://travels4kids.ro/objective/castelul-de-lut-valea-zanelor/
https://www.facebook.com/pg/casteluldelut/posts/
And a "hobbit" hotel ...
https://www.booking.com/hotel/ro/pensiunea-dealul-verde.ro.html?aid=356980;label=gog235jc-1DCAsowAFCFnBlbnNpdW5lYS1kZWFsdWwtdmVyZGVIM1gDaMABiAEBmAEguAEGyAEP2AED6AEBiAIBqAIDuALohPLxBcACAQ;sid=5e911514b0c436c00cf48de56df40605;dist=0&keep_landing=1&sb_price_type=total&type=total&
Sorry for off topic .

A quick sketch shows that four octagon rooms fit neatly together giving a tiny square center room. This would have a very jagged outer perimeter, and would in practice morph into a nipped square overall shape. The center would be too small to be functional unless the outer rooms were quite large. So I think the outer rooms would have to be some version of trapezoids.

I would group the windows so that two outer rooms shared a window zone, putting the windows at one corner of each room. This would make only four exposed window sections, and longer stretches of uninterrupted wall which could be very thickly bermed. To reduce hard-to-use corners of trapezoids, the corners would be further clipped to give 16 sides to the outer wall.

I would expect the roof to be earth covered for camouflage from the air, with membranes like the wofatis, so steep slopes not required. In fact, steep slopes would be problematic if earth covered; there is a tendency for earth to slide off unless the underlying slope is gentle. 1:12 is the recommended maximum slope for thinner earth coverings (green roofs) to stay in place. Thick coverings which merge into berms at the base may be able to be steeper.

If the lab or anyone else was actually going to build this, I would suggest the KISS* principle - extra corners, particularly ones that can't be easily checked with Pythagorus' help + a bunch of inexperienced, just learning helpers = real possibility of expensive mistakes. If someone was going to pre-manufacture with special jigs, a 1000 octagon frames that just had to be bolted together, it might not be so bad, but there's a reason that most cheap housing is boring. Cob allows some compromise with this principle. Most of the wofati designs I've seen, seem to be based on rectangular shapes. Earth bag uses circles, but they publicize a very specific and important simple machine to keep the levels conforming to the design. The octagon outer shape that Nicole Alderman drew could be laid out at the beginning, and the inner walls would simply be lines running from corner to corner so I felt that could still be managed efficiently. I'm all for beauty in design and a more organic, naturally shaped home for even temporary visitors, but I'd rather make a simpler plan and have it built successfully, than a complex plan that never happens.

* KISS principle - keep it simple s----d. (I do wish there was a nicer word for the second "s" - hubby accepts "sweetie", but others might take that wrong.)

Orin Raichart wrote:As to the rocket stoves, I suggest two, one for the south facing side and one for the north facing side.

Since most people either run hot or cold, put the cold people on the south facing side;
put the hot people on the north facing side;
have the two rocket mass heaters on the inner circle;.

A small diagram , made by hand , is possible to post ? I understand you are thinking to use two wood stove .. maybe one is not possible ?
Need to calculate , after fix all materials to built the house , the number of KW necessary to heat all rooms . Using natural materials and thick exterior walls , by my modest opinion , one stove could cover the necessary heat .
I hope Ido not say nonsense ...

Jay Angler wrote:* KISS principle - keep it simple s----d. (I do wish there was a nicer word for the second "s" - hubby accepts "sweetie", but others might take that wrong.)

Keep It Super Simple :D

Here's my drawing. Explanation is written on the same paper as the floor plan and the intersection. That's in this photo:


And here's a view on the building seen from the South.


I'll be glad to answer questions on my design here.

If I have permission to speak ...
The  entrances divide house in two , many doors on opposite walls ... make it impossible to use a hot bench as a heater along the walls . Maybe you are thinking to use underfloor heating , or a hot air pipe under the ceiling .
Three fire in the same room are not to much ?

On the RMH subject, I was wondering if one shouldn't be placed so it was heating the shower room - if *any* room in a house deserves extra heat in my very scrawny, cold-blooded dinosaur opinion, it's the bathroom.

I need an explanation of the word, "Boots" please.

John, it is like "bootcamp", a program that Paul has at his place in Montana. More info HERE.

So is the term ,"boots" used instead of people?

So is the term ,"boots" used instead of people?

Yes sir. Boots are Paul's version of volunteer workers who learn skills while doing cool projects, and are fed and housed. You could think of it as a house for 6 workers, or 6 long-term guests.

So really it should refer to 12 Boots IE 6 people

Sorry , but for me two RMH to heat just four beds  is too much , is the waste of energy by my opinion .  
Put three beds on either side of bathroom and will all be heated . One of the stoves can also be use for cooking . With some system of dumpers is possible to cook and heat room , or separate . Or one of stoves my have two firebox .
So , one stove heat three room , other one heat three room and bathroom . Or for the bathroom possible to use boiler stove to heat the room and the water .
But for all this , is necessary to change the positions of room and doors .
Also , light without  sun is cold . The top windows must be placed to let the sun to enter in the middle room .
Through each outdoor is lost heat .
Have a nice day .

As an example ...

Or like this ... can be more designs .

Better than other skeches ...

george catalin wrote:Sorry , but for me two RMH to heat just four beds  is too much , is the waste of energy by my opinion .  
Put three beds on either side of bathroom and will all be heated . One of the stoves can also be use for cooking . With some system of dumpers is possible to cook and heat room , or separate . Or one of stoves my have two firebox .
So , one stove heat three room , other one heat three room and bathroom . Or for the bathroom possible to use boiler stove to heat the room and the water .
But for all this , is necessary to change the positions of room and doors .
Also , light without  sun is cold . The top windows must be placed to let the sun to enter in the middle room .
Through each outdoor is lost heat .
Have a nice day .

George, I don't know much about heating. You probably know more on that subject.

It does not matter , we all learn every day from one to another . Do not worry , I do not know much more than you . Also I do not know which is the minimum temperature in the area ... and do not know to many things ....
Because the intention is to use a mass heater stove , I am sure that mass can heat more than we think . One stove with radiators can heat whole house end one radiant solar  panel can give hot water from springtime to the end of autumn .
But they are not part of our theme .

In the link can see some rocket mass stove , for the people that does not know what does it mean this kind of heater  ...
https://insteading.com/blog/rocket-mass-heaters/
Also in this forum
https://permies.com/t/40573/beautiful-rocket-mass-heaters



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St5zRDyICas



Very hard job ...

I thought some more on this.
I like the idea of Rocket Mass Heaters, I think they are the best heating in the Montana region (though I never was there, not even in the USA at all). But heating is good in winter. In summer the sun gives plenty of warmth. Maybe some people would even like cooling. So the RMHs can not serve the purpose of cooking stove or shower water heater. During summer also you don't want the sun to shine in.

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:I thought some more on this.
I like the idea of Rocket Mass Heaters, I think they are the best heating in the Montana region (though I never was there, not even in the USA at all). But heating is good in winter. In summer the sun gives plenty of warmth. Maybe some people would even like cooling. So the RMHs can not serve the purpose of cooking stove or shower water heater. During summer also you don't want the sun to shine in.

Very well punctuated .
But it is also very well to have it inside in winter . So , the solution is to have a rocket cooking stove  , maybe with cob oven close to house , in exterior .
For heating water a gravitational solar system can be use . Can be done at home or can be one professional . Or .... exterior rocket stove can have water heater exchanger with reservoir . For one person it is necessary 40-50 litres of water .
So the reservoir must have about 200 litres of water 50-60 degree to be possible to mixt with cold water .
There are many possibility ...About the sun to shine in during  the summer , the top windows can be cover , no problem , but in winter save energy .
Which one is the best choice ? None of the  examples is natural .  Boiled water with stove ...

http://www.i4at.org/surv/stove.htm
In my country people love this kynd of outdoor kitchen ... Because of the price , many of them they make themselves .
http://www.egratare.ro/gratare-de-gradina/gratare/

So , the choice is to use , as wall , wood logs . But the logs will not be enough to insulate the house .
To not lose energy , the logs must be doubled with natural material to reduce the transfer of heat from inside to outside .
Can be use wool , hemp , raft , jute , fibre wood , recycled cellulose , simple straw or straw with clay .....

For wooden poles is necessary a protection solution ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2vkP5j1-KI
https://permies.com/t/15615/Post-ground-techniques
Will be use concrete for base of house ? For the poles is necessary because I "heard" the roof will be cover with earth ... very heavy .
If not , for poles needs iron plate to support them on earth , other ways , because of the weight of the roof will sink into the soil .
An example ...
Plese , excuse my English...

A different way to heat water is the Biomeiler. It's like a compost heap that turns kitchen scraps and 'poop' into heating for the shower water.