I'm trapped in the system

*Looks around the thread and sees shiny moderating hat sitting in the corner.**Dons the sparkly thing*

Please remember that this is the financial strategy forum, not the politics or ethics section of the cider press. The Cider Press is a special place for people with enough apples to very nicely discuss hot button issues like politics and ethics.

If you would like to discuss the politics of how our system works, please make a thread in the Politics forum.

If you want to discuss the ethics of the system or of debt/bankruptcy, please make a thread in the Ethics and Philosophy forum.

If you have helpful suggestions on how to get out of the system, please post here!

If you want to tell someone that they're idea is bad, please don't. Just talk nicely about how marvelous your own idea is--you don't have to bash their idea (or even mention it) to do that.

I honestly really don't want to go back through this thread and move out all the posts about ethics and philosophy. I'd much rather make a cow bumper sticker or write a dailyish :-D. So, um, could you all help me out by staying on the topic?

Thank you so much!

*Takes off moderator hat and tosses it back in the corner, hoping it can grow some little cobwebs and its own merry little ecosystem there*

Karen Donnachaidh wrote:E.Sedgwick, You originally posted this plea for advice nearly 3 years ago (Apr. 2013). Please give us an update.

It seems like people are dredging up old threads to make the place look more active. There can be no world domination with a dead forum.

Nicole, thank you.

John, rather than a sinister move to make permies look more active, what if Karen was genuinely curious about what had happened? Personally I've posted to some older threads because....
...they looked like an interesting topic that I wanted to put my own two cents into
...the topic was suddenly pertinent to my own issues currently going on with my homestead
...I was just downright curious for an update
...after dinner and a long hard day I like to do a bit of reading. Reading old permies posts is just as satisfying as reading a magazine or light novel. Hitting that reply button comes naturally no mater how old the OP's post is.

And sometimes it's just my mood for enjoyment, like posting to the Women Peeing Outdoors. Heck, that threads been around for years and folks still occasionally get a kick out of posting something. And I have to admit, even its fun to read, I've learned a few new things there.

Apprenticeship.

Go work with someone who is doing a trade you like, work for free if you have to, but learn the skills, then you will be job ready.


Get the book from your library "What color is your parachute".     It is excellent for helping choose a path for your life.


You have my prayers.

Su Ba wrote:Personally I've posted to some older threads because....
...they looked like an interesting topic that I wanted to put my own two cents into
...the topic was suddenly pertinent to my own issues currently going on with my homestead
...I was just downright curious for an update
...after dinner and a long hard day I like to do a bit of reading. Reading old permies posts is just as satisfying as reading a magazine or light novel. Hitting that reply button comes naturally no mater how old the OP's post is.

Thanks for the encouragement to post in old threads, Su.

I read through lots of them because I haven't been here very long but have hesitated to add anything.

I love the 1970's "Mother Earth News" flavor of this place.

Mart Hale wrote:Apprenticeship.

Go work with someone who is doing a trade you like, work for free if you have to, but learn the skills, then you will be job ready.

...or even business ready.

Get the book from your library "What color is your parachute".     It is excellent for helping choose a path for your life.


You have my prayers.

Excellent advice, Mart.
Instead of going down the well trodden government school/student loan highway... take the road less travelled. In my opinion, a person is better off maturing by gaining direct firsthand personal experience dealing with the real world... outside the entitled "safe room" of academia.

Mart, great suggestion.

Ya know, Dale Hodgins posts a lot on permies.com about how to live frugally and not spend your hard earned cash. His lifestyle isn't for everybody, but he does have some great ideas and firsthand experience. 30 years ago I wouldn't have embraced his ideas, but now they look really sensible to me.

When I was young and newly married, we gave our money away to everyone........rent, phone, excess use of electricity, new fashionable clothes, stereo system and all the music, TV, movies, vacations, entertainment, restaurants, new cars, other material goods, and our last 9 years in the rat race -- a mortgage.  30 years and almost nothing to show for it. Just about every penny we had earned had gone to somebody else. I now can look back and think, how crazy is that?

We broke out of the system, but it wasn't fun n games. It was living without. It was creating our own free entertainment. It was living in a plywood shack (we would have lived in a junk schoolbus if we didn't happen to have a shack already on the property). It was DIY for everything. It was abandoning keeping-up-with-the-Joneses. It was repurposing and re-using stuff from the thrift shops and rummage sales. It was taking baby steps to learn how not to spend money. Spending money when you don't have extra to throw away is like slowly bleeding to death. You don't pay much attention to the little trickle until it's a crisis and too late.

Between Dale's comments and suggestions posted here, a person has a lot to think about.

Same here (old fashioned life) if I cannot afford something I either save for it or do without, never owned a credit card in my life and because of this attitude I have a very poor credit rating which is just fine by me, I'll stick with my "make do and mend" life.

E. Sedgwick wrote: I'm stuck in the system, and I don't know how to get out.

If anyone has insight, advice, or other help to offer, I'd really appreciate it.

Be present first. The first thing you have to do is to confront your fears. That way you will have energy at your disposal. Find out what you are scared of, and then realize that fear is just a thought. When you think you are in a negative state. You want to spend more and more time in a positive state, a state of feeling. Then you start to recharge and the solutions will come.

At 17 I quit high school and joined the Navy. I was sent to Europe for 4 years while working in my chosen career field.
At my last command I was handed a box and told I was the closest thing to an IT guy as they could find. So, I suddenly was an tech. I retired at 20 years with a solid background in IT and computers.
At 40 years old I had a residual income for the rest of my life, medical, dental and a host of other bennies.
The IT field was wide open and I was in close to the ground floor. I leveraged my military experience and landed a job with a government contractor making twice what the Navy paid. I work from home, but do quit a bit of travel.
The point of this diatribe is, there are means to secure your future. The young man that started this thread needed to get out of debt to move ahead. Consider more than just 3 options.
Being careful with a like minded wife we paid all our debts, bought a house with acreage and got it paid for. We're building our forever home now and it's paid for. My land is paid for, my vehicles, everything. I'll go into retirement owing no man anything.
It can be done.

The military retirement thing is how we’re going to be able to afford to “escape” too, especially dealing with a degenerative condition (I think I’ve seen some other Ehlers-Danlos folks on here!) and potential future rising private medical costs.

An interesting thing that some may not know about is the restructuring a few years back so people aren’t left with no retirement progress if they don’t stay the full 20. You still get the best stuff if you stick it out, but now there’s a 401k contribution and matching options that kick in like most other jobs and are yours to keep when you leave after just a couple of years. They also have loooots of resources for helping folks handle debt if they actually take the time to ask/explore.

Jennifer Kowalski wrote:
especially dealing with a degenerative condition (I think I’ve seen some other Ehlers-Danlos folks on here!) and potential future rising private medical costs.

I'm dealing with a degenerative condition, as well, that might put me on those bloody opioids for pain. Either that or I'll smoke my pain meds. I figure it's all part of getting old, but it makes for a bleak future.
I don't worry about that. Right now, I'm healthy and strong so I'll enjoy it while I have it.
In Arkansas if one is 100% disabled from the military they pay no property taxes or no income taxes on retired pay. Lifetime hunting and fishing license is free. Tags for the vets vehicle are free. Each tag after that is $35 dollars, flat fee.
Additionally, with a 100% award letter from the VA there is no waiting period to apply for SSI benefits. Vets go to the head of the line, but that bennie applies everywhere.
Good luck to you and yours! BZ and a sharp hand salute  to the retir(ing/ed) vet! I know what you through and some of the s**t sandwiches you bit into. You'll come out clean ready for a fresh start!

Michael Dotson wrote:

In Arkansas if one is 100% disabled from the military they pay no property taxes or no income taxes on retired pay. Lifetime hunting and fishing license is free. Tags for the vets vehicle are free. Each tag after that is $35 dollars, flat fee.

Forgot to add those state benefits extend to the widow if the vet dies first.

I’m really hoping that my servicemember doesn’t end up qualifying for those, but it’s good to know in case disability rears its head for him! He’s already in physical therapy, so they’re trying to be proactive, but it’s definitely not been easy going even as “just” a comm/cyber warfare guy.

People can see those physical and other long-term struggles and “nope” out of the life, which is fair, but hopefully the retirement benefit changes will make it more appealing for younger folks who just want to join for just a few years to get their legs under them while they’re sturdy enough to bounce back, and head back into the civilian world feeling a litttle less hopeless and unprepared.

Jennifer Kowalski wrote:
“just” a comm/cyber warfare guy.

The company I work for is veteran owned and actively seeks veterans to hire. The job is mostly travel on full government perdiem CONUS and OUTCONUS. We have people from all over CONUS based from home so you can live where you want within reasonable distance from an airport. We're not interested if you live in Alaska or Hawaii (costs too much to send you places).
If interested, drop me a line at mdotson@gmail.com.

Some observations since the last time I posted on this particular forum.

With a new administration coming in a new reality is settling in:

* Before this year is out the govt is intending to spend from $7-10Tn.
* Russian, China are not buying US Treasury notes any longer and stocking up on gold.
* Stock market is consistently now not interested in any bond offers public or private the yields are too low.
* The real inflation rate is at least 7% if not higher (see shadowstats.com). It will go higher still.
* Unable to sell T bonds on the market, the Fed will print $$ on a massive scale.

That appears to be where we are headed in the not too distant future.

Options? Rule #1 should be get out of the US Dollar. There are various ways to achieve that:

* Buy physical. Real Estate (land, acreage, home), precious metals, tradeable skills.
* If you have a 401k, talk to the administrator and see if there are options in the plan to avoid USD denominated assets. Do realize that if your plan is not yielding a minimum of 10% yearly you are losing money against inflation.
* Move money to foreign accts not pegged to USD. Probably not possible for most of us however and due to regulations extremely hard as many foreign banks don't want the hassle.
* Trade/barter in physical rather than dollars. Its a useful skill to develop, generally yields better results, is hard to tax on the small scale.
* Garden. One of the prime items that skyrocket is food. Grow more than you need and trade that excess for the things you do need.

[Usual disclaimer. Not financial advise, merely observations. YMMV. Make your own informed decisions and seek the counsel of others as appropriate.]

E. Sedgwick wrote:I wasn't sure where to put this post, but this seems like the best place.

I'm a 19 year old young man, and I see only 3 options in front of me, and none are appealing. Option one, work a low pay unskilled job and live in a rented basement for the rest of my life. Option two, go back to college and spend the rest of my life paying off loan debt (or go into a higher salary career which I would hate every day of). Option three, which is the best, is to live some kind of permaculture lifestyle, but the problem here is that land is really expensive and I'd still be chained to a mortgage or loan for the rest of my life. Or most of it anyway.

I can't just quit my job and join an eco-village because I've already accrued debt which I have to keep paying. With the kinds of jobs I've been able to get, saving up money to buy land cash up front would take almost as long as paying off the mortgage. I'm stuck in the system, and I don't know how to get out.

If anyone has insight, advice, or other help to offer, I'd really appreciate it.

Here are some options to get lots of money quickly:
1. Get a CDL. Companies such as CR England will pay you for your training, then you get paid $70,000 and up a year to drive long haul semi trucks. Plus you can live in the truck so no housing costs. You get to see the whole country and save almost your whole paycheck.
2. Learn a construction trade such as drywall, framing, concrete, roofing, landscaping, carpet installation, flooring, painting, etc. and your pay will inevitably go up to about $25 an hour with experience (This varies by trade). The simple fact that you are good at your job makes you far more valuable to an employer than an entry-level employee who will work at close to minimum wage. Unlike retail which can be taught in a week, actual trades take months or years of experience for you to get good at it.
2B - get a contractor's license. It's a $10,000 bond, 1st months insurance, and only 16 hours of education (in business practices and ethics) in Oregon. Laws vary by state but it's not that hard to be a licensed contractor. That's actually the easy part, actually knowing what you're doing and keeping your customers happy is the hard part. Then you can bill people $100 an hour for your services.

Also consider getting married to that right lady (find her if you don't know who she is). Then you've got 2 incomes, but only one household of expenses to pay for. Almost all successful middle class people are married, every corporate executive, every president that I know of has always been married. It provides financial and emotional stability, go through a solid upper class neighborhood and you'll see that everyone living there that's ahead in life is married. They got ahead in life because they got married.

What you don't want to do is go to college. Everyone else is doing that, there's no money in it anymore, your Starbucks barista is probably a college graduate. Everyone thinks they'll get ahead working a desk job in a corporate environment. Anyone can go into debt to pay for college, and so many people have got useless degrees in psychology and things like that that you won't get paid anything extra for having a degree. Almost any college degree is useless and the debt is more of a burden than it's even worth to have a college degree. Also I tried for years to break into computers, everyone wanted experience and there was no way to get experience without already having experience. Not the easy way to big bucks people say it it.

These are my ideas as a 40 year old man who *thought* I knew everything at 20 years old and am only now really starting to figure out how to get ahead. Forget what you were told about college, every generation faces a different reality than the last generation.

What I can't figure out, now that I've reduced my debt and started saving, is when I am supposed to use the money to do what I want without affecting retirement. Because retirement to me doesn't really mean farting at 62 years old. Retirement to me, I think, means owning some land with a tiny house, and traveling freely, without debt.

As per the books I've been reading, compounding doesn't seem to really blast off until probably 3/4 down the road of when you expect to use it. Therefore, what am I supposed to do realistically if I'm saving almost all of my money? Am I supposed to dip in immediately once I get enough money to buy land and build a tiny house?

Or am I supposed to just keep saving and try my hardest to earn more?

Jeff said, "Or am I supposed to just keep saving and try my hardest to earn more?

This!  Keep saving and earn more money.

We live as cheaply as we can and live a very comfortable life.

Our answers might be dependent on your situation.
How old are you?
Your previous posts mention that you have a 1000.00 dollar income.
You have no debt.
Housing, food costs?
What have you done in the last two weeks to move forward? This is a sreious question. What steps have you taken?

Robert Ray wrote:Our answers might be dependent on your situation.
How old are you?
Your previous posts mention that you have a 1000.00 dollar income.
You have no debt.
Housing, food costs?
What have you done in the last two weeks to move forward? This is a sreious question. What steps have you taken?

- I am 29 years old.

- I don't have a $1,000 income, I currently have, now, $1,100 that I have saved ready to invest. My yearly income is around $10,000 doing something I don't care for part time while I have been trying to get these smaller pursuits off the ground, notably selling peppers and pepper plants. I would like as soon as possible to find a 9-5 job that I find somewhat enjoyable and skill-based, I do not care what it is as long as it's a skill. I'm sorry, but this is who I am. I enjoy learning and getting better at something. I respect the hard work that manifests from monotonous duties, but that is not for me. End of story. I'm currently looking around at beer breweries, coffee roasters, nurseries, basically all of my interests seeing if there are any opportunities available.

- No debt

- Housing, no expense, currently living with family in a place that's all paid for, though I am a benign burden, I am far less a burden than others that currently live here which I don't want to get into (alcoholism). I would like to get my own place and land as soon as possible. No car expense because I refuse to buy a car, it is a remarkably large expense that I believe can be avoided. I can run 5+ miles just fine, if I need to travel farther for one of the aforementioned 9-5 jobs, then I will be getting an electric bike, no public transportation exists where I am.

- Food costs... probably $300/month max... However, I pickup from a co-op which can significantly raise that price. At a grocery store, I probably spend less than $150/month. Sometimes barely $100, I do not eat out, I cook or bake 100% of the things that I eat ("if you can't spend money, you have to spend time")

- Well, the first step I've taken was to get out of debt... I think that's a pretty significant one in the long run, perhaps even the entire foundation of this path? I made the final payment on a number of accounts just within the last few days. I've taken the TV out of my room. I've gotten more books. I've been devouring information on personal finance and Early Retirement Extreme by Jacob Lund Fisker as posted on Permies. I have a clearer view of how first accumulating money will inevitably help me pursue my passions, rather than trying to haphazardly use my passions to make me financially independent and worrying all the time.

- I have been trying to find some remote side hustle positions because space for growing peppers is limited. I would be interested in starting a blog if I could travel hack and travel for extremely cheaply, documenting environments and sustainable principles found in various locations, perhaps from a historical perspective.

- I have been compiling my skills, hobbies, interests and passions and seeing what I might be able to turn into profit. I do NOT expect to be some magical millionaire. But what compounding and investment has shown me is that even a SINGLE DOLLAR can help! This has been the game changer in my mindset. It has brought me from entirely hopeless to entirely optimistic. I no longer feel this unbearable dread that I will never make it or have enough, because if I can even invest just a little bit consistently, it will be more than enough, someday... I can reduce my expenses to nearly zero besides food in my current situation, and cover material costs for my side hustles with just a few sales. That would leave me $8,000-$9,000/year to invest minimum BEFORE I even get a new 9-5 job that I prefer and hopefully get a matched 401k.

Jeff Steez wrote:
I would like as soon as possible to find a 9-5 job that I find somewhat enjoyable and skill-based, I do not care what it is as long as it's a skill.

If I were in your exact position, I would go anywhere that I saw a construction job being done.  The best ones will have a crew of 5-15 people.  Larger and they will all be union, smaller may work, but they often have a very limited labor budget.  Find anyone that seems to be in charge and ask if they have any day labor jobs.  Many of them will.  Plan on carrying buckets of something heavy, running errands, getting off the roof to pick up the hammer someone dropped, whatever lousy job there is that no one wants.  Work your ass off.  Don't slow down all day, don't complain about anything.  Don't say you're hungry, you're not too hot or too cold, you aren't tired, your feet don't hurt.  If you do that, they will probably ask if you want to work the next day.  Do the same.  A couple weeks, they will start having you do other things that suck less.  There is a lot to learn on a construction site and it pays well if they find out you a) show up every day and get there early, b) do what you're asked to do without complaining, c) work hard.  They may only keep you a day, a couple days, a few days.  Don't take it personally, they may be operating on a shoestring.  If they pay you at the end of the day and don't ask you to come back, thank them for giving you the work and leave them your number.  Tell them to call if anything comes up and they need a hand.  Just the advice of someone that has been there, and worked enough crews to know what kind of workers people want.  Do those things and everyone will respect you and you'll have more work than you know what to do with.  

We all have differing circumstance. I had been overseas in the military, married divorced, finished my degree while working full time and had purchased my second house before I was 29. I was driven, As you say, I'm sorry but that is just who I am. If you think homesteading isn't a sometimes monotonous undertaking perhaps woofing or finding some work at a nursery or a farm would be a good idea for a real taste of what a drudge farming sometimes is.
Investing isn't for the faint of heart and I have been terrified a few times the drop in 1987 and the 2008 drop. Planning on those investments for the long run isn't a bad idea but counting on them for land purchase isn't the fastest or surest way. Investing in yourself knowledge and skills make coin.
I'm sorry but there is no such thing as a benign burden. You should be an asset whether at home or at work. Again as you said, I'm sorry that is just who I am end of story. Become an asset.
Getting out of debt is what you should be doing no matter what. Debt isn't always bad. My brother has gone through life cash only for most  purchases. He had cash to pay for a new car, went in and the advertised price was only if you financed it. He owns his own house and acreage, we together own a successful business. I had to co-sign for my brother( heheheheh). He made payments for six months and paid it off to establish his reliability on paper.  
Getting out of debt is what adults do every day utility bills, house payments all of the payments we make to live. It establishes a trail of reliability.
Work and education that's how you improve, Part time gets you open hours to do full time someplace else. work to get capital and then invest the capital in yourself or something that will help you increase your capital. Limitless, endless possibilities, putting some barrier "that's just me" is going to keep you fenced in and wearing a path around the inside of the paddock looking out.

Robert Ray wrote: went in and the advertised price was only if you financed it.

Sounds like a good deal to me. Go for it, take all the bells, whistles and perks they use as bait to get your name on the dotted line. Drive it down to the bank the next day and pay it off.

I do not understand the vehement 'hate' of any sort of debt.
What is the driver for this?
Good debt can save you a lot of money over time, compared with renting.

One has to be realistic and understand that becoming a property owner isn't something that just happens. It can be hard work and sacrifice. Nobody learns to play the guitar without painful finger tips, nobody becomes a professional athlete without hours of practice. Silly things I remember, one spring semester, having to pay for books, seriously drained my funds. I was working full time but was struggling. The ocean and the woods fed me. I was able to devote an hour between work and class to crabbing, casting a throw net for shrimp or foraging in the woods. To this day, though some consider crab or shrimp a treat, if given a choice I'd rather eat a peanut butter sandwich. Somewhere someone mentioned using gardening seasons as a time gauge. Through work and luck I was able to purchase (get a mortgage) on my property  at 33. I figured I had 50 garden seasons to get it right. Instant permaculture homesteads don't exist. You have to plant the seed, tend it and nurture your dreams. Instant gratification rarely happens. How many gardens do you have left in your life? Develop a plan, and it can initially be loose, location for example. Work, you will have to work. Don't ever turn down a opportunity to learn a skill. We're all trapped in the system, that's nothing more than stairs to different life landings. There is no elevator here. You can't just push a button or swipe left or right. Sometimes the flights of stairs will be easy and sometimes harder. Having to carry groceries or a sick child to the next landing, you may need to use the handrail (friends) sometimes. Once I get to that landing I can take a breath and start again. If I stop, that is where I stay. I can look down at what I have done and maybe be satisfied or attack the next set of treads to improve. I have found myself having to take a moment to recharge, adjust the load, stumble sometimes as I walk up.